Those who have a CCO in the Hall of Fame...

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Sven

Post by Sven » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:48 pm

Oracle Of Wuffing, I have an honest question. Are you mentally handicapped in any way? You seem to be demonstrating it.

Very simply-

You aren't getting first strike against me without suffering equally nasty reprucussions from units that are stronger then yours. This is a fact.

100>90. In order for you to achieve 120, you have an if statement that is impossible to fufill. You must have 90>100. Since that's impossible, Cena ever reaching 120 is impossible. Cena will stay and 90 and 100>90 will take in place until he gets his COP. By then, you've lost ground, lost units, and generally lost the game.

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DTaeKim
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Post by DTaeKim » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:48 pm

HoF Conversation 3

[18:14] Zeon Zaku: Hi Nobody.
[18:14] Nobody: Hey
[18:14] DTaeKim: I thought he left.
[18:14] DTaeKim: *Shrugs.
[18:14] DTaeKim: Well then, let's get cracking.
[18:14] Zeon Zaku: He just came back on:P
[18:15] Nobody: My Internet fails at life.
[18:15] Nobody: That's why it keeps dying. <_<
[18:15] Zeon Zaku: I feel your pain.
[18:16] Zeon Zaku: So where did we leave off?
[18:16] DTaeKim: I'm searching for that right now.
[18:17] DTaeKim: We left off at Rob.
[18:18] Zeon Zaku: Right.
[18:19] Zeon Zaku: Ugh. Where to begin with Rob.
[18:19] DTaeKim: Well, I should say we finished Rob.
[18:19] Zeon Zaku: I agree.
[18:19] Zeon Zaku: I think we concluded that the bio was a bit corny.
[18:19] Nobody: What was the conclusion?
[18:20] DTaeKim: Corny biography, underpowered in general.
[18:20] Zeon Zaku: Yep.
[18:20] DTaeKim: I said something about teh D2D, then I got disconnected.
[18:20] Nobody: heh
[18:21] DTaeKim: I think I said that he's a lot of minute effects that don't really add up to something worthwhile.
[18:21] Zeon Zaku: Ok.
[18:21] Nobody: So Tempest is the only one left?
[18:21] DTaeKim: Looks like it.
[18:21] Zeon Zaku: What about Rob's powers?
[18:22] Zeon Zaku: Did we look at them?
[18:22] DTaeKim: Not really, like I said, I got cut off after we discussed the D2D.
[18:22] DTaeKim: I will say that the COP looks...underwhelming to say the least.
[18:22] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[18:23] Zeon Zaku: And bitty.
[18:23] DTaeKim: Sounds about right.
[18:23] DTaeKim: It's enhancing his D2D, which is all right, but the D2D wasn't exceptional to begin with...
[18:23] Zeon Zaku: Yeah which is part of the problem.
[18:24] Nobody: The SCOP feels really underwhelming as well.
[18:24] DTaeKim: *Takes a quick look.
[18:24] DTaeKim: That isn't worth 7 stars.
[18:24] Nobody: nope
[18:24] DTaeKim: And it again enhances the D2D.
[18:25] Zeon Zaku: So..
[18:25] Zeon Zaku: Rob
-Bio is a little corny.
-D2D is too bitty and underwhelming.
-Both CO Powers are bitty and underwhelming.

[18:25] DTaeKim: In summary, yes.
[18:26] Zeon Zaku: He has a lot of quotes too...
[18:26] DTaeKim: Victory quotes.
[18:26] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[18:26] DTaeKim: -2 victory quotes an dhe's fine.
[18:26] Zeon Zaku: Ok.
[18:26] DTaeKim: Yeah.
[18:26] Zeon Zaku: Tempest then?
[18:26] DTaeKim: Yep, and then we're finally done with the HoF.
[18:26] Nobody: D2D is 90/100...
[18:27] DTaeKim: Underpowered to start...
[18:27] Nobody: COP is pretty much +20 attack and enemy vehicles over plains/forests +1 move cost
[18:28] DTaeKim: Is that a real TCOP?
[18:28] Zeon Zaku: D2D is very underpowered in clear weather which is what a lot of games are played in.
[18:28] DTaeKim: He can stand to be bland D2D.
[18:28] Nobody: I think you need 2/8 for a true TCOP.
[18:28] DTaeKim: So he has a pseudo-TCOP...
[18:29] DTaeKim: Maybe I should check on that balance for fallie's CCO...
[18:29] DTaeKim: I didn't realize he can do a TCOP Sideslip with that bar.
[18:29] DTaeKim: >_>
[18:29] Zeon Zaku: Hmm
[18:29] DTaeKim: Anyway.
[18:29] DTaeKim: Well, he gives an incentive to use the COP.
[18:29] DTaeKim: That's a plus.
[18:29] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[18:30] DTaeKim: Only catch is, I think Olaf's SCOP is better.
[18:30] Nobody: If he started at bland, it would be +10 attack and rain for 2 stars.
[18:30] Nobody: He starts worse though.
[18:31] DTaeKim: The more I look at these CCOs, the more I am convinced that +10/+10 should be the default bonus in AW2...
[18:31] Nobody: yeah
[18:31] DTaeKim: There's no reason to not include it.
[18:31] DTaeKim: Anyway...
[18:31] DTaeKim: Hmmm, fixing Tempest could be tricky. If we make him bland D2D, that COP gets underwhelming.
[18:32] Zeon Zaku: Which means the COP would have to be increased if the D2D is fixed.
[18:32] DTaeKim: Yeah.
[18:32] Nobody: Which means he's pretty underpowered as a whole.
[18:32] DTaeKim: I agree.
[18:32] DTaeKim: The SCOP is the same price as Olaf's Winter Fury.
[18:33] DTaeKim: Now, Olaf isn't the strongest of all Cos in AW2, but 140/120 stats and +1 movement vs. 2 mass damage and 100/110 stats.
[18:33] DTaeKim: 2 mass damage goes a lot farther than the stats IMIO.
[18:33] Nobody: If Tempest were bland, it would be +40/+10 with +1M versus 2 mass damage
[18:34] Zeon Zaku: Which is a little more impressive but mass damage is very efficient.
[18:34] DTaeKim: Hmmm, it's a toss-up.
[18:34] Nobody: Still, surviving for 7 stars when you're at 90/100 D2D in AW2 charging...
[18:34] Nobody: Your SCOP has to be very overwhelming.
[18:35] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[18:35] DTaeKim: You're right.
[18:35] DTaeKim: So underpowered in general.
[18:35] Zeon Zaku: Well his bio is alright although the whole custom army thing could be expanded upon.
[18:36] Nobody: So...how many of these CCOs will stay?
[18:36] Zeon Zaku: Let me look at the list;)
[18:38] Zeon Zaku: Ok...
[18:39] DTaeKim: The ones I recall that remained were Ember, Gorman, and James.
[18:39] DTaeKim: There could be more, but they aren't coming to mind.
[18:39] Zeon Zaku: That is correct.
[18:39] Zeon Zaku: James needed only a few small changes.
[18:40] DTaeKim: Just those three?
[18:40] DTaeKim: Holy cow, we neutered the HoF.
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Oracle of Wuffing
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Post by Oracle of Wuffing » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:49 pm

I hope when I come back that you consider compromising on the deletion matter. It would save us so much frustration, we wouldn't be removing data from the site, and heck, we would actually be adding data... Which would be a good thing that no one can really complain about.
Sven wrote:Oracle Of Wuffing, I have an honest question. Are you mentally handicapped in any way? You seem to be demonstrating it.

Very simply-

You aren't getting first strike against me without suffering equally nasty reprucussions from units that are stronger then yours. This is a fact.
A simple "Yes" to my "Counterattacks are that strong now" would have sufficed, thank you.
Sven wrote:100>90. In order for you to achieve 120, you have an if statement that is impossible to fufill. You must have 90>100.
This assumes that all the attacks you will make on me will be OHKOs, and that all the attacks I make on you must be OHKOs. And while OHKOs are a force, I do not feel that they are that common.

And again... Everything in the log where the D2D is A-OK considering the COP.
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thefalman
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Post by thefalman » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:54 pm

While some of the COs may need some changes, it seems pointless actually removing them from the site as if the changes are made then we'll just be adding them and then taking them away. Take away their HoF 'status', but don't bother deleting the data.

Just my thoughts on that issue.
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DTaeKim
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Post by DTaeKim » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:56 pm

I can't seem to find that 2nd HoF conversation...anyway...

Oracle of Wuffing, the original thread never implied deleting their profiles. Tronn_Bonne began the topic with the following:
Tronn_Bonne wrote:Below are just our (Myself, DTK, and Nobody) brief summaries of all the HoF CCOs. If anyone has any particular questions then please ask and we will elaborate upon our reasons. The CCOs in bold are the ones we feel can stay with little to no changes.
Along the lines, I think it went from changing the COs in the HoF to a temporary removal from the HoF or something of that sort. As brief as some of the conversations were, I still stand by our assessments.
Oracle of Wuffing wrote:And again... Everything in the log where the D2D is A-OK considering the COP.
That is true, we did say the D2D is fine considering the COP. By itself, it is underpowered, and therefore, Cena must rely on the COP to break even. He's still underpowered D2D, and will probably never get to use that D2D as designed.
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Oracle of Wuffing
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Post by Oracle of Wuffing » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:13 pm

DTaeKim wrote:Oracle of Wuffing, the original thread never implied deleting their profiles. Tronn_Bonne began the topic with the following:
Tronn_Bonne wrote:Below are just our (Myself, DTK, and Nobody) brief summaries of all the HoF CCOs. If anyone has any particular questions then please ask and we will elaborate upon our reasons. The CCOs in bold are the ones we feel can stay with little to no changes.
If some CCOs (the ones in bold) can stay...

...

What happens to the ones that don't stay?

That thread does, indeed, imply deletion.
DTaeKim wrote:Along the lines, I think it went from changing the COs in the HoF to a temporary removal from the HoF or something of that sort. As brief as some of the conversations were, I still stand by our assessments.
Again, this really only demonstrates poor planning on your part... You can't even tell me -exactly- what your goals were when you started this.

Come on... How can not deleting the COs, and then posting your discussion of the CO afterwards as a secondary rate, an Olaf's Chair, or a debate hinder your group's intentions?
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Xenesis
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Post by Xenesis » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:16 pm

Although Wuffy, the Raters don't have any access to the actual site, so it's not like they could sneak anything through either.

But I'm just going to sit back and watch until this gets resolved.
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DTaeKim
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Post by DTaeKim » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:19 pm

We have another MSN conversation, this time between HPD and me. I picked a specific section for your interest. This is dated September 9, 2006.

[16:02] DTaeKim: We were also contemplating a rerate of the HoF CCOs.
[16:03] HPD: yeah, I knoe
[16:03] HPD: know*
[16:04] HPD: Linky and I have talked a lot about that before
[16:04] HPD: we had come to the agreement that we'd need to revise the HoF quite badly
[16:05] HPD: however, that would mean that it will almost be emptied by the time everything's been re-rated
[16:05] HPD: and only a few of the newer CCOs would make it in again
[16:05] DTaeKim: An incentive to make it.
[16:05] DTaeKim: Even more special.
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Oracle of Wuffing
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Post by Oracle of Wuffing » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:50 pm

Xenesis wrote:Although Wuffy, the Raters don't have any access to the actual site, so it's not like they could sneak anything through either.
Yes, but I'm not the only person with site-update-access... And I'm such a jerk that, yes, I would still have problems with HPD slash anyone else deleting the CCOs even if he felt it was right.

---

DTaeKim, you're dancing around my question.

o_O And I can't accept HPD's opinion of September 9th to be of any relevance. He's given a new opinion on this- now, that opinion may or may not change because you've actually posted the logs- and that opinion is that it's not a good idea. Even if I were to accept this, I'd have to ask for HPD to explain it a bit more, because the term "revise the HoF quite badly" could mean either that the revision would be of a drastic or an unfavorable nature... And I still don't agree that the concept of "Let's make the rules stricter and more enforced to make CCOs a status symbol" will encourage CCO submissions.
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DTaeKim
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Post by DTaeKim » Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:12 pm

The truth is the CCO Center was dying as a result of Custom Wars. Simply put, why bother bringing the CCOs here when CW can hack them in and you can play as your CCOs?
Oracle of Wuffing wrote:Again, this really only demonstrates poor planning on your part... You can't even tell me -exactly- what your goals were when you started this.
Rightfully, the onus is mine to bear. The short story is that I felt that CCO rating has changed since the HoF was established, especially in the realm of balance in light of the metagame. There are plenty of changes being made to AW2 balance, since the balance hack is in its tenth incarnation and is primed for another update. The technical section has changed in the past year as the competitive aspect of Advance Wars took a greater focus. For example, Andy, the prime of balance, is in between balanced and underpowered. Hawke is now the prime example of balance in Advance Wars, as seen in AW2 and AWDS. Creative sections in the rating process also was changed as raters wanted more than a couple of short paragraphs. This was reflected in my rating style when we had a numerical system.

The HoF was stagnating as no new CCOs were added to the HoF for the longest time. When WWN was under the revived edition and we had teams of CCO raters, we still had only one new CCO added to the HoF, which was Tronn_Bonne's Ember. There were a couple on the cusp of the HoF, but the raters never got around to giving that second S-rank, and most of the raters were inactive by that point.

Linky proposed that we change the system to a more comment-oriented one, though he didn't like the fact I went ahead and changed the system without everyone agreeing beforehand. Along with the changes was the proposal that we take a second look at the current HoF CCOs and see if they still stand up to the current balance system.

Obviously, as you can see here, most of them do not. What was considered balanced then has changed. You're right; we did not plan a course of action. The general idea was to PM the creators our comments and let them know that if they make the changes, they can remain in the HoF. If they wanted clarification on the comments, they could ask us. Obviously, things don't seem to be going that course of action now.
Oracle of Wuffing wrote:Come on... How can not deleting the COs, and then posting your discussion of the CO afterwards as a secondary rate, an Olaf's Chair, or a debate hinder your group's intentions?
We never intended the comments to be made public. The initial plan, as I said earlier, was to PM the creators and let them know what we thought of their CCOs. Now that the cat is out of the bag, in hindsight, we should have made the entire process public instead of having it inside a MSN conversation. It will still generate the same debate though, and I still doubt it would have changed any of our minds regarding balance.
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Post by Oracle of Wuffing » Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:36 pm

DTaeKim wrote:The truth is the CCO Center was dying as a result of Custom Wars. Simply put, why bother bringing the CCOs here when CW can hack them in and you can play as your CCOs?
If I recall correctly... It wasn't exactly thriving before Custom Wars.

This is all good and all, and I thank you kindly for your elaboration and admittance to this. But again, why is the removal from the Hall of Fame so necessary? It's deleting site content. It's wiping out any and all respect for the past. If it does encourage new submissions, the submissions will be either few (so there's less to worry about when the standards improve again), or hastily forgotten.

Just, you know, out and out say what you want to happen to the "invalid" CCOs, and if it doesn't involve deletion, I probably won't have a problem with it.
thefalman wrote:While some of the COs may need some changes, it seems pointless actually removing them from the site as if the changes are made then we'll just be adding them and then taking them away. Take away their HoF 'status', but don't bother deleting the data.
^ Something like that, only less thefalman and more you.
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Post by EagleM » Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:42 pm

Its wasn't thriving before CW but it was going ok. Now its come to a deadstop....Nearly
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DTaeKim
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Post by DTaeKim » Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:44 pm

If you asked me, why bother deleting the data? We see the changes, and if they work, we will probably let them back in. Just remove their HoF status and store them elsewhere for now; I have no idea how data storage works on a website.
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Xenesis
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Post by Xenesis » Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:46 pm

Pretty well the same way it works on a hard drive.
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Oracle of Wuffing
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Post by Oracle of Wuffing » Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:03 pm

<_< Because website data is stored on a hard drive.

Is a "former-HoF" collection suitable, or are you going for a full "let's hide everything from the public" sort of thing?
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Post by HPD » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:46 am

Sven wrote:Yes, I believe you have lost all credibility by not knowing the full extent of tactics a created CO can use, and how they can counter the full extent of tactics that an enemy CO can use.

You simply don't know all the current tactics that COs are able to use. Without knowing these tactics, you cannot have a complete balanced rate. They go hand in hand, unfortunately, it is a pipedream to believe that they don't.

Not to pick on Thrawnfett, but unfortunately he often overlooks certain parts of COs that are abusable, both in his own creations, and how he rates COs. He considers the options he knows thoroughly yes, but there are some options he simply doesn't know! He cannot be expected to evaluate what he doesn't know, and therefore he doesn't make that brilliant of a rater. He is a solid rater yes, but everyone has their faults.
Sven, you're talking nonsense. You seem to be so very self-absorbed that you just can't believe that someone who doesn't do things the way you do can also be good at certain things. You think that you are so good at everything regarding AW, but I think, I honestly think that you would make a very poor CCO Rater. And that has everything to do with your own arrogance. I DO know what I'm talking about, mind you. I'm not mindlessly posting things I haven't thought out completely. I HAVE played competitively for some time, but I did not feel like it was any beneficial to my rating skills. You, however, have never been a CCO Rater here. Therefore, you have even less credibility on this matter than you think I have. True, I might not know the full 100% of this games capabilities, but that's unavoidable. It would be virtually impossible to do so. But I do know that I can supply CCO Creators with all the information they need to know about their CCO. Having no credibility on CCO rating because I haven't played Ladder matches for a while is utterly ridiculous. You're probably thinking that you are the only person with real credibility on this site. I seriously hope that your arrogance will be your downfall someday.
Sven wrote:Competitive play is about using the optimal move every turn. An optimal move is a move that makes the optimal move of your opponent worse, ultimately bringing you closer to winning. The better the player you are, the more likely you are to consistently make optimal moves. If you consistently make optimal moves and are able to explain the ability to make optimal moves, you are a theorytard. It is not direct skill that accomplishes rating, but it is theorytard- the ability to debate the options of both COs in a game and pick a winner based on optimal play.
Then your definition of a 'theorytard' is something else than mine. In my opinion, a 'theorytard', as you call it, is someone who is able to debate on certain aspects of gameplay in order to improve his/her understanding of how the game works, not the ability to think of optimal moves for you to use in a turn. Sure, that might be a thing to discuss, but it's not everything this game has to offer. There is more behind AW than competitive play alone, and you do not seem to be able to grasp that fact. This is not about who is making the optimal move. This is a fun game, and CCO Creation is supposed to be fun as well. Competitive play is completely out of this. The people who come to here and to our CCO Center are people who have experience in AW and like the game. People who want to find out what more there is or could be to it. And that's not just about competitive play.

Also, the reason I quit rating a while ago was because I had come to a point where I had to make a choice. I did not want to spend all of the little spare time I have on CCO Rating. I would hardly even come to check out the other topics on WWN, let alone do some other things for myself. But I doubt that when I made that decision I had lost all ability to rate a CCO. Hardly, Sven. I bet I'd be rating as good as before or even better after 2 rates or so. And I think the same would count for AWBW competitive play.

Being able to whore out infantry in a strategic way does not make you able to judge an original creation like a CCO. Both things teach you different things regarding this game. Just compare it with cars, for example. Being the first in car races does not make you an excellent driver when it comes to traffic situations. That's something completely different. Both things requires you to know how to handle a car, but they are fundamentally different.
Sven wrote:I fully agree with everything you said! The problem is, without being an accomplished player, you do *not* understand how this game works, and you cannot evaluate all the options or possible strategies. Neither can a good player/theorytard, but he gets far closer then someone who cannot play will. The good player is able to think things through, and has finetuned his ability to think things through in the game of AW.

It's simply a matter of how many options the rater is able to evaluate. A rater with no game experience can evaluate maybe 50/100. The rater with experience can do 75/100. Neither are even close to perfect, but the experience undeniably helps. And what we want is the best raters who consider the most options. Our current raters consider more options then the old raters do because of things found through competitive play.

Thus, rating, theorytarding, and AWBW game skill go hand in hand. If you're good at one, you should do fine in the others.
Once again, I just cannot agree with you on this. But to refute your point: I AM an accomplished player. At least, I consider myself to be one. I know what this game is about and how balance works and all that. But I am not a competitive player. And why not? Because I did not want to be one. I did hardly experience fun in playing that way. And the more recent tendencies in the development of this part of the game have seriously ticked me off and therefore I had decided not to take part in the current Ladder. I do not believe that the way people play on AWBW is the way a fun game of AW should be played.

But aside from that, your points seem to be wavering. As OoW also said, it seems that you cannot make up your mind. 'Thinking things through' as you call it can be viewed in more ways. When thinking things through in competitive play, you are, like you say, thinking of the optimal move. But when thinking things through when rating a CO, you are thinking of what change the CCO you are reviewing could bring to the game. Will it make an addition to gameplay and enhance the fun factor of the game, or will it be fairly useless and/or obsolete. Also, is the concept original? Does the concept keep itself within the boundaries set by the Golden Rules? Questions like these you need to ask yourself. Not just "Would this CO win versus this CO on a map like this when both players play optimal?" You may ask yourself that, but I don't know if it would be of any use at all when rating a CO.

I am not questioning the current Raters' ability to rate CCOs. Hell, I've helped them into this position. I know that they know what they are talking about when it comes to rating COs. But I don't think that their ability to rate is coming from competitive play alone.
Sven wrote:Rating and competitive playing are undeniably interwined. I understand your point, I just disagree with it.
Perhaps they are intwined with each other. Yes, both car racing and driving in traffic require the use of a car, and you should know how to drive it. But then it splits in two different directions. The same goes for Rating and competitive play. Both require knowledge in AW's game mechanics, but that's where the road splits in different directions. And going from one place to the other would require you to walk back to the fork in the road and take the other direction.
Sven wrote:Explain this NaNoWriMo thing?
http://www.nanowrimo.org
DTaeKim wrote:Wow. When we decided to look at the HoF again, I expected a backlash, but not to this extent.
I believe it has been explained by now. Your HoF revival idea seemed like a good idea at first. It has just been quite poorly executed. I hope you will be making some changes to that to ensure that you are doing the best you can for our Rating Center. You see, if you had just given everyone a notification at first that you want to take a good look at the HoF again, everyone would probably have agreed with it. Then you'd be rating each CCO in the Hall individually and give them your own score and rank. People would have a decent rate to build on, they'd make the necessary changes, you'd validate the changes and update the S-rank score. Nothing wrong with that.
Oracle of Wuffing wrote:DTaeKim. This is the INTERNET. It is known for INTARWEB DRAMA.

Your Rating Circle, while I'm certain was a perfectly good concept on paper, clearly is not working. We have Treedweller, who has posted this list with no knowledge of why the list exists. We have HPD, who the list was intended for, who also does not like the list. We have Nobody (the member), who can defend a few points of the list but has no knowledge of the list on the whole. Then you post, and you don't even address the points Treedweller implied you'd try to. The only impression I am receiving is that this was an ill-thought, ill-planned, ill-executed... Somethingorother... That wants to change site content and delete the content that is not changed with permission.
Yes, this is a perfect example of internet drama. WWN drama, to be exact.

I do agree with OoW here. It was a good concept, but poorly executed. You need to communicate to the outside more and let people know what you are doing, before presenting everything all at once without giving people a chance to view their opinions about the matter as well. RDF is there for discussion about rating, not for collaborating.
Sven wrote:There's theorytarding in terms of tactics, which alone won't make you a good rater, then there's theorytarding in terms of optimal moves. Optimal moves will make you a good rater.
I believe everything that needs to be said about this comment is standing right above.


DTaeKim, these convos might be interesting, but why didn't you make a decent rating out of them? You can discuss with the other raters whatever you like, but the CO itself won't be benefitting from that if you do not write it down in a rating. There, you can let other people see your comments in a clear and structured manner. That's why ratings and the RC as a whole exist, you know..
Oracle of Wuffing wrote:I hope when I come back that you consider compromising on the deletion matter. It would save us so much frustration, we wouldn't be removing data from the site, and heck, we would actually be adding data... Which would be a good thing that no one can really complain about.
I totally agree with this. We cannot resort to the deletion of good data. We just should try to update older data to a new level. That doesn't mean that older data should be deleted.
Xenesis wrote:But I'm just going to sit back and watch until this gets resolved.
Why did I know that you'd say this before you had even posted it? Always the laid-back type, eh? Well, at least it makes you the perfect admin for this community, so no complaints from me ;).
DTaeKim wrote:We have another MSN conversation, this time between HPD and me. I picked a specific section for your interest. This is dated September 9, 2006.
Yes, well, my idea behind the whole thing was to give every CCO in the Hall a decent up-to-date re-rate. By saying that "Very few COs would make it in again", I meant that almost every CCO there would receive an S-rank again. Our rating standards are constantly increasing and it is becoming harder and harder to get a CCO in the Hall. I'm still unsure about whether I think this is a good thing or not, but it is the case as of now. We know our current standards and we rate things according to that. I have never given my support for a total deletion of HoF data.
DTaeKim wrote:The truth is the CCO Center was dying as a result of Custom Wars. Simply put, why bother bringing the CCOs here when CW can hack them in and you can play as your CCOs?
I agree that CW is drawing people away from our Rating Center. They seem to be offering a higher price to someone who makes it through with a CCO. But the RC had been running low on activity from the side of the Raters first. Something I, too, can be blamed for. You, as the new batch of Raters have been given the opportunity and the freedom to try to get its activity back up. But instead of thinking of a way to get people back to creating CCOs and posting them here, you have only thought of raising the standards and completely changing the system and the Hall of Fame. By the way your plans look, it would be even harder for CCOs to get accepted now. I suggest you try to think of a way to improve the activity of the RC instead of thinking of how to get only the ultimate best CCOs in the Hall of Fame.


As for the future of the RC, I think that I should involve myself in its activities more. Perhaps I should be guiding the current raters more and give out more advice where necessary. I, too, feel guilty about things going the way they do. As for the concurrence with CW, I think that CW might be promising a lot to their users, we still hold the flag when it comes to quality ratings. And I think that we should continue in giving out ratings of superb quality that offers people a lot more than they do on CW. We have a great and knowledgeable community and we should try to use that knowledge as much as possible. Perhaps we can even try to advertise our RC when we have everything built back up. Our own people doesn't seem to be that interested in creating CCOs that much anymore, so we should try to draw in people from outside to post their CCOs here. And those who come should be helped and guided and should recieve positive criticism about their CCOs. And perhaps even the existing community can once again be made interested about creating CCOs again. Who knows? For now, we should try the best we can.


Finally I've made a real wall of text again... It surely feels good.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
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"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Post by DTaeKim » Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:00 am

Oracle of Wuffing wrote:<_< Because website data is stored on a hard drive.

Is a "former-HoF" collection suitable, or are you going for a full "let's hide everything from the public" sort of thing?
Former HoF is fine with me.
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Post by Kireato » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:38 am

...and I missed this wall of texts fest?

Seriously, I check the CCO boards more than I check the announcements.
Yeah...
<_<;
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Post by Oracle of Wuffing » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:12 am

DTaeKim wrote:Former HoF is fine with me.
While I still think that there's an overfocus on bio, that's actually more of a sentiment to the old system... While I'm likely not going to do the update, I can say that my name is Oracle of Wuffing, and I approve of this idea.

And now.

OMGWTFBBQ GOTTA GET ON TEH BUSZOR.
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Post by DTaeKim » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:41 am

[quote="HPD]I agree that CW is drawing people away from our Rating Center. They seem to be offering a higher price to someone who makes it through with a CCO. But the RC had been running low on activity from the side of the Raters first. Something I, too, can be blamed for. You, as the new batch of Raters have been given the opportunity and the freedom to try to get its activity back up. But instead of thinking of a way to get people back to creating CCOs and posting them here, you have only thought of raising the standards and completely changing the system and the Hall of Fame. By the way your plans look, it would be even harder for CCOs to get accepted now. I suggest you try to think of a way to improve the activity of the RC instead of thinking of how to get only the ultimate best CCOs in the Hall of Fame.[/quote]

I actually went and asked a few people on MSN regarding any ideas for restoring the activity of the Rating Center. Right now, CW is just more appealing because of the possibility that creators can now play their CCOs in a game. We don't have anything aside from the prestige of having a CCO in the Hall of Fame. To many, that isn't enough of an incentive to post their CCOs. Making the rater activity more active is one step in the right direction, but something more is needed...
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Post by HPD » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:35 am

I think that right now we can offer little more than a guarantee on the best ratings of the internet, as we always have. People who are looking to make their CCO have great quality should come here.

Perhaps we could cooperate with CW in a certain way on this. But the people on the CW RC might not like that idea. Who's running that anyway?
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Post by Blame Game » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:51 am

We should probably just encourage all accepted CW COs to come to WWN for fine-tuning, or something along those lines. I would really to see the CCO Center to become as prosperous as it was back in the day.

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Post by HPD » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:53 am

that might be an idea. It would also let CW do the dirty work for us and we get the more fun stuff to do.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Post by Blame Game » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:04 am

With Nobody and DTK essentially gone from CW, that leaves very few real balance gurus left on CW. >_> They'd certainly have incentive to come here, that's for sure.

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Post by HPD » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:07 am

Well then, I think that we should expand our territory then and advertise our CCO center on CW. Let's also try to get backup from the people who are running the thing. I think that'd be doable.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Post by EagleM » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:43 am

Thats a good idea. All of the CCO that are in the game to be posted here for a shot at the HoF. That wouild easily raise COness.
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Post by DTaeKim » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:52 am

I'll be honest though, I'm not sure if any of the accepted COs may make the HoF.

It would be interesting though.
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Post by HPD » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:53 am

I'm not aiming for getting CCOs in the HoF. I'm aiming for more activity in the RC. Any activity.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Post by Blame Game » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:53 am

I think that it's a reasonable assumption that very few of the voted-in CW CCOs could make it into the HoF without some serious changing. Some of them are just too complicated, others are boring, etcetera.

WWN takes everything into account when considering COs for the Hall of Fame. If you've got a CO with great statistics but a retarded bio, then it just won't cut it; furthermore, balance alone isn't what we're all about. I very seriously doubt that a CO like Helen, who is bland with cheap mass-damage abilities and is very close to completely balanced, would ever have a chance of making into the HoF because a HoF CO needs to be close to perfect in almost every aspect. That's just not likely to happen with many of the CW CCOs, if you ask me.

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Post by HPD » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:56 am

Yes, indeed. For a CCO to be able to get into the HoF, every aspect of it should be completely harmonized with the other. It's about the CCO as a whole in the end, not parts of it.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Post by DTaeKim » Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:24 am

We'll see what happens. Right now, we're limited in commentators, so some activity would be nice.
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Post by CO_Frosty » Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:54 am

I really doubt any CW CCO can be HoFed, at least I wouldn't HoF any of them >_>;.

Anyway, back on rating stuff...If you want to make the RC active, you will basically have to offer something else. Sure, quality rates is something interesting, but we use the exact same rubric as CW, and there ARE some balance gurus, like Thrawn, maybe Sven and certainly not me XD, still on CW willing to do rates, and since the rubric is the same and the "capacity" of the raters is also the same, the quality of the rates will be similar. Sure, those rates are rare at CW, but they are there and rates aren't really the most common thing here.

Then you changed to the commentator circle, an idea I really like...at least if it keeps active like that, that, in theory, would speed up the process, giving that something else, since on the rating "era" only the creators willing to give 100% had any chances of getting HoFed. And the rating process would rip the CCO to little shreds and picking the little details until a "perfect" or "too good to be tweaked without losing the entire thing" CCO is found, like an extremely magnified comment. But then we have two little flaws here:

1) The comments ARE common, I admit that, but there is this little problem...most CCOs are commented only once, due the lovely "CCOs remains on the list until 2 comments are done", and the second comment is rarely done. A single comment, or even two for that matter aren't gonna make any difference. The concept is good, maybe a tweak or two on the process may be needed.

2) The Rating process is no better than, lets say, the voting booth (at least for new CCOs, not CCOs from vets, since they pass easily due bias >_>). The convos I saw explored in depth the CCO, but a lot of "flaws" are just..ignored. For example:

"Still, the theme is a minor point."
"Well, his D2D is fine.
We're all okay with that?
I suppose.
More or less yes. "

etc

I know (or at least imagine) that its very hard for someone to be 100% picky. But " I suppose" doesn't seem "perfect" enough for me.



Either way, boosting the activity of the RC will require a lot of effort from the commentators and raters, effort that, soon or later, will result into lazyness >_>;;, but it is possible.

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Post by DTaeKim » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:07 am

1) We only have four total commentators right now. Tronn is missing in action at the moment, which leaves myself, Nobody, and Treedweller. Go bug the other two, since I've commented on those CCOs. If we can get some more members active in the forums, I wouldn't mind adding more commentators.

2) The quotes you used there are from two different conversations. "The theme is a minor point" was referring to Cena, while the second quote was from the conversation about CCO Edge. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make using two different conversations as if they were in the same conversation, but I'll address the second dialogue in particular.

If you looked at the conversation about CCO Edge, we do go in-depth about his D2D. Basically, none of us could find any serious flaws with the D2D. It may have not been perfect, but we didn't believe there was a serious flaw with the D2D that would prevent it from entering the HoF.
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Post by HPD » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:07 am

Mind you that if CW uses the same rubric as we do, that they stole it from us.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Post by DTaeKim » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:07 am

HPD, they did take it straight from us.
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Post by HPD » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:08 am

I don't know if I should feel offended or complimented by that...
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Post by DTaeKim » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:10 am

Imitation is the best form of flattery.

Last time I checked, they had adjusted the rating system to account for more of the technical section and less of the creative section.
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Post by HPD » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:11 am

How typical.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Post by Sven » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:14 am

Awesome, we're going to get ticked at a group of people for taking our system and improving on it and putting it to use.

WWN CO system has no hope.

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Post by DTaeKim » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:15 am

Improving upon it may be an exaggeration, Sven. You know that.

You can say they are putting it to use, but now they're hitting the same problems with the rating system we had earlier. Simply put, the system takes too much of a rater's time. It's more of exchanging favors for rates now.
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