Those who have a CCO in the Hall of Fame...

Forum news. If you are a new member, please read the Forum Rules.
User avatar
Treedweller

Those who have a CCO in the Hall of Fame...

Post by Treedweller » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:43 am

For those of you with a CCO in the Hall of Fame, well, that may not be the case anymore. Below is a list of all the CCOs compiled by our three raters, and what needs to be done (if they do indeed need a change) in order to maintain their position within the Hall. If you do not make the following changes to your CCOs, they will be removed from the Hall of Fame. So, um, if that position is important to you, I suggest that you do indeed take the time to make the fixes.

If you have any questions or want the reasons elaborated on further, please feel free to ask questions in this topic, or contact Kimmy, Tronn, or Nobody through whatever means you wish; alternatively you may also contact me, but be forewarned that I am not a rater, nor did I help review the CCOs. Here we go:

Cena

-Needs to be in an army.
-Needs 100/100 D2D starting value.
-Needs new SCOP.
-Needs longer bio.
-Needs 2 more power quotes.

Dawson

-Need more Custom Army info.
-Needs new COP.
-SCOP is underpriced.
-Simplified D2D.
-Needs 2 more power quotes.

Ember (Fine)

Ghost
-D2D is underpowered.
-COP and SCOP are too similar.
-Needs 2 more power quotes.

Gorman (Fine but a bit extreme)

James (Overall fine because the changes to him are small)
-Needs 2 more power quotes.
-Rewritten bio.

Jun
-Slight changes to the COP and SCOP (both underpowered)
-Longer bio.
-Needs 2 more power quotes.

Newbie
-D2D is underpowered.
-Needs better Bio.
-Underpowered COP.
-Needs 2 more power quotes.

Ray
-New SCOP.

Rick
-Get rid of no APC supply and the T-Copter/Lander Supply.
-One more CO Power Quote.
-SCOP needs a small extra ability.

Rob
-Bio is a little corny.
-D2D is too bitty and underwhelming.
-Both CO Powers are bitty and underwhelming.
-Fewer Victory quotes.

Tempest
-More CO Power quotes.
-D2D is underpowered.
-COP becomes underpowered when D2D is fixed.
-SCOP is underpowered.

User avatar
HPD
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Mentat
Location: The Mountain

Post by HPD » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:46 am

The changes in the HoF will be made by me quite soon, so please hurry up. The current Raters will validate your changes.

Oh yeah, you should PM or E-mail the creators of the CCOs.

Also, I'm moving this to Announcements.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

User avatar
Treedweller

Post by Treedweller » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:48 am

Yeah, I will after classes for sure, but for now I just wanted to make this public so everyone's prepared and forewarned.

User avatar
RadioShadow
Rank: Holding the Mega Drive controller
Location: UK, England

Post by RadioShadow » Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:46 am

HPD wrote:The changes in the HoF will be made by me quite soon, so please hurry up. The current Raters will validate your changes.

Oh yeah, you should PM or E-mail the creators of the CCOs.

Also, I'm moving this to Announcements.
Give them time. Maybe 1 month should do the trick. Changes won't suddenly happen overnight!

User avatar
Frankdeslimste
Rank: Founder of The Flaming Squirrels
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Those who have a CCO in the Hall of Fame...

Post by Frankdeslimste » Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:53 am

Treedweller wrote: James (Overall fine because the changes to him are small)
-Needs 2 more power quotes.
-Rewritten bio.
^_^
But am I forced to change this, since he still is fine? Or will he be removed if I don't?
Image
I bet the bastard is throwing a party with a huge poster of a 2HP B-copter ~ Linkman 145
I like Frankie, so nyeh. ~ Linkman 145
Dammit now I have a bunch of emails in my inbox saying 'Dirty Penguin Sex Notification' ~ Thefalman

User avatar
HPD
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Mentat
Location: The Mountain

Post by HPD » Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:06 am

From what I know, you have to make all the changes and have them approved by the raters. If you don't manage to get everything requested right, your CCO will be removed from the HoF.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

User avatar
Newbie
Location: SOS Brigade

Post by Newbie » Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:54 am

Define "Better Bio"

I might end up having to redo him completely anyway, take him down if you think I'm taking too long, I'd rather have a finished product than something half assed >_>
Image
Credit to Sasquatch.
"Well, out loud, I said, "What the ****!?"
However, when I translated it on the internet, it came out, "Oh, it's a game." Lost in translation, you know?" ~ Shadowdude

User avatar
Crystal Guard 292
Rank: can never leave WWN
Location: Mt. Pleasant, Michigan

Post by Crystal Guard 292 » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:51 pm

Define "New COP..."
Image
"It's game storage...THAT'LL TOTALLY PUNCH YOUR BALLS OFF! EXTREEEEEME!" -Airrider
"Well, he lives in Aussie land, where up is down and hamburgers eat people." -Familyguyman
"I'll get to it tomorrow." -Heropsychodreamer01

User avatar
Yuganon
Location: Canada

Post by Yuganon » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:44 am

What a crusade. Just go for stats and not stuff like 'a corny bio'. IMO, only D2D, COP, and SCOPs should be edited if there is a problem. Maybe if there's 'no' bio, but all of these CCOs have one.
Last edited by Yuganon on Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
teabag a piranha tank, heart barely beatin'

User avatar
Liam
Rank: BITW
Location: Chicago

Post by Liam » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:48 am

It's obivous that a few people want to stamp their mark by forcing changes... >_>
Image
Your political compass:
Economic Left/Right: -5.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.21

User avatar
Treedweller

Post by Treedweller » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:59 am

Um, no. It's just to update the HoF to more modern standards; nothing wrong with that, if you ask me.

User avatar
Newbie
Location: SOS Brigade

Post by Newbie » Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:06 pm

I fully agree. I've been uncomfortable with mine for quite a while now!11
Image
Credit to Sasquatch.
"Well, out loud, I said, "What the ****!?"
However, when I translated it on the internet, it came out, "Oh, it's a game." Lost in translation, you know?" ~ Shadowdude

User avatar
Oracle of Wuffing
Location: Wuffily wuffing somewhere.

Re: Those who have a CCO in the Hall of Fame...

Post by Oracle of Wuffing » Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:25 pm

Even though I don't have a CCO in the Hall of Fame (on that day, the heavens shall crash into hell, and there shall be no savior, the twin blades of the Duluous shall striketh thine realm with the might of a thunderous reign, and yadda yadda yadda), I'd have to say that most of these requests don't sound like reasonable updates to modern standards.
Treedweller wrote:Cena
-Needs to be in an army.
-Needs 100/100 D2D starting value.
-Needs new SCOP.
-Needs longer bio.
-Needs 2 more power quotes.
Tell me that I'm bringing my own personal beliefs in here if you must, but I don't see how being in a specific army makes a CO acceptable or not. Yes, I understand that typically COs are supposed to be in armies, but I don't see how it's a deciding factor. After all, if one sticks with an already established army, one must convolute a way to explain why that army was chosen (and perhaps take a hit to their bio's creativity), and if one makes a new army up, one must convolute the bio to also explain this army's existance.

Look, Cena's bio explains why an army is not listed. It would break character to affiliate him with one. His point-hits are already taken in the Bio section, and it's already been accepted with this knowledge. Since when does the length of a bio equal the quality of the bio?

<_< I could futher go on discussing how much I loathe the bio concept, but that's getting far too personal and OMG EYEM NOT A RATTER.

Saying "Needs new SCOP" is a really vague request. Seriously. You can do better than that. Keep in mind that all of this had a reason to be accepted to the Hall of Fame, and not only must one be convinced that these changes are favorable, but evidence should be presented to explain why the previous rate was incorrect.
Treedweller wrote:Dawson
-Need more Custom Army info.
-Needs new COP.
-SCOP is underpriced.
-Simplified D2D.
-Needs 2 more power quotes.
Generally same comments as Cena.
Treedweller wrote:Ghost
-D2D is underpowered.
-COP and SCOP are too similar.
-Needs 2 more power quotes.
Quote Crystal Guard in his rate: "If anyone feels like questioning it, I'll argue later."

<_< Disregarding the fact that I shouldn't hold him to his word like that.

You're pointing out the flaws that... Are already pointed out in the rate. It's been granted that those are weak points of the CCO, and that this is a subjective field guarded by the rater. This is, um, why it was once advised to grab as many raters as possible.

Treedweller wrote:Gorman (Fine but a bit extreme)

James (Overall fine because the changes to him are small)
-Needs 2 more power quotes.
-Rewritten bio.
...Again, the whole subjective rating thing... It doesn't sound like whoever was in charge of this could make up his or her mind.
Treedweller wrote:Jun
-Slight changes to the COP and SCOP (both underpowered)
-Longer bio.
-Needs 2 more power quotes.
Again, that's really going against the grain asking for a COP and SCOP change without much reasoning... Both rates found them quite nice.
Treedweller wrote:Newbie
-D2D is underpowered.
-Needs better Bio.
-Underpowered COP.
-Needs 2 more power quotes.
I cite Thrawnfett's guide when I point out that there hasn't ever been good solid rules to how the Bio should be.
Treedweller wrote:Ray
-New SCOP.
Hai guyz lets maek him do 9 hp mass damage all round lol hes axeptable now.
Treedweller wrote:Rick
-Get rid of no APC supply and the T-Copter/Lander Supply.
-One more CO Power Quote.
-SCOP needs a small extra ability.
... Rick will have 90/100 troops with no strengths other than powers. I know a lot about not being balanced, and that's not balanced.
Treedweller wrote:Rob
-Bio is a little corny.
-D2D is too bitty and underwhelming.
-Both CO Powers are bitty and underwhelming.
-Fewer Victory quotes.
:/ Three of those points are awfully subjective.
Treedweller wrote:Tempest
-More CO Power quotes.
-D2D is underpowered.
-COP becomes underpowered when D2D is fixed.
-SCOP is underpowered.
I'm pretty certain that rain, in Advance Wars 2, snuck up and increased terrain movement, sometimes worse than snow. That's a two-star COP that reduces your enemy's movement... That's usually better than Sideslip.

While I am in no position to guarantee that my opinion is correct, and while I'm in no position to say that these critiques are wrong, I am in the position to say that what it seems like is that someone sat out and decided, "Hey, let's make sure all of the Hall of Famers have all of their quotes and make sure their bios are what I want them to be like!" Now, yes, a lot of these points, like adding quotes, are menial and should actually be bothered with as they will only help the CO, but demanding changes to bios and powers without refuting the reasoning for the previous score, and then demanding that these changes be made or else the CO will be removed from the Hall of Fame, is foolish. And just requesting additions and improvements to bios... Without bothering to detail what can be improved on in the bio itself... Is not informative or persuasive at all.

I thought that the idea was that S-Rank COs are supposed to be hard to make, and that a 100% S-Rank was supposed to be arbitrarily very rarely given out- if at all. In this criteria, I don't see why a 90% S-Rank is unacceptable as a Hall of Fame CO. If the criteria for making an S-Rank CCO has changed this dramatically and is this important, why is it that I don't see too many CCOs (that is, other than Edge,) meeting these new standards?

Imagine how empty the Hall of Fame would look if those COs were deleted. Methinks that's a bit too hasty, no?
Last edited by Oracle of Wuffing on Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
CumulusCentral : It's dot-com!
"He's gonna win..." The Ever-Loving Linkman, talking about my Character Battle Predictions.

User avatar
Treedweller

Post by Treedweller » Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:32 pm

Unfortunately, one of the raters will have to come in and defend their viewpoints, because I had nothing to do with this process besides post this on a board that everyone can see, and I'm not about to debate about something that I had nothing to do with. As such:

Kimmy! Wuffly's calling!

User avatar
Crystal Guard 292
Rank: can never leave WWN
Location: Mt. Pleasant, Michigan

Post by Crystal Guard 292 » Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:14 pm

Oh snap.

*hugs Wuffy*

Keep in mind these were rated on AW2 standards.

Your comments all point to "Underpowered." I don't know if you're just expecting the crackpot level powers found in AWDS, but under the AW2 balance, we (the raters of the time) felt that they were quite balanced. I don't see how toning all the CCOs up in power makes any logical sense...
Image
"It's game storage...THAT'LL TOTALLY PUNCH YOUR BALLS OFF! EXTREEEEEME!" -Airrider
"Well, he lives in Aussie land, where up is down and hamburgers eat people." -Familyguyman
"I'll get to it tomorrow." -Heropsychodreamer01

Nobody

Post by Nobody » Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:49 pm

Well, even though many or even most of the bullet points listed out say things related to the creative section, the major reason for why any CCO is being removed from the Hall of Fame is due to the technical section alone. The changes necessary to the creative section are definitely not as great as the changes necessary to the technical section.

As for the power level rising in AWDS, I believe that it was just an off mindset that made the transition feel so large from AW2 to AWDS. Andy, Grit, Drake, Adder, Hawke, Hachi, and Colin didn't change. All three of the broken trio came from old AW2. COs like Sami, Sensei, and Lash got nerfed; COs like Flak got buffed. The "free strength" in AWDS is simply less extreme than AW2's extreme strength with significant weakness.

Show some examples of how the power level jumped so amazingly. Grimm is a new addition and he is considered one of the worst COs on AWBW, where AW2 COs use AW2 stats. Rachel's overpoweredness is largely exaggerated. Sasha and Von Bolt have more extreme D2Ds, making them overpowered on AWBW, like Xen has said.

So yes, I do believe that many CCOs in the Hall of Fame were underpowered. I'll use Cena as an example.

Cena starts at 90/100 stats, and has a D2D where is favors the CO that does better D2D. That is to say that he will most likely be staying 90/100 throughout before powers come into play. His COPs really needs to be a large difference maker since he gets very outclassed by Andy and is ridiculously outclassed by COs like Hawke.

However, the COP for two stars puts him at the level of Adder's D2D. He has no chance of winning if he uses the COP against a CO with a strong D2D, which means he has to use his six star SCOP while fighting a strong D2D with 90/100 stats. Against a CO like Adder, getting +1 movement for two stars is far better than getting +10 attack for two stars, plus Adder starts at 100/100. Even on the turn Cena activates his COP, he very possibly will still be down.

While the COP is synergetic with his D2D, the effect of his D2D is more more long-term. His immediate advantage with 100/110 stats doesn't fare well enough against other COs who are able to either match that level already or have a comparable or better power that they can use at the same time.

Now, writing out all of this for every CCO we think needs changes would be very useful and possibly even necessary. However, the bullet points we made weren't originially for the CCO creators or the public. It was posted in the rater discussion forum to get HPD's attention only. This is why we have yet to elaborate and why PMs would probably have been the better choice.

User avatar
Crystal Guard 292
Rank: can never leave WWN
Location: Mt. Pleasant, Michigan

Post by Crystal Guard 292 » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:11 pm

Keep in mind that we balance hacked AW2. That's the balance these CCOs were rated off of. Not the 'balance' that IS left us with.

Also, with Cena. It's unfair to compare his COP with Adder's, as Adder's is cheaper as a strength. That's his advantage. I still feel that an overall power buff for every CO is unnecessary. This is going off of the AW2 balance, not the AWDS.

Also, yes, every CO you mentioned there changed. Andy gets a power buff during his SCOP, and is far more useful now due to altered gameplay mechanics (I'm looking at you, TCOPs.) Adder gets a short bar, invaluable for TCOPs. Hachi and Colin not changing? Have you seen how much faster the bar charges in AWDS? That means they'll access their powers far, far faster, meaning they'll get an advantage far quicker. Just because something doesn't cosmetically change doesn't mean it hasn't changed.

I seriously think that people forget the meaning of a 6 star super around here when it comes to AW2 balance.
Image
"It's game storage...THAT'LL TOTALLY PUNCH YOUR BALLS OFF! EXTREEEEEME!" -Airrider
"Well, he lives in Aussie land, where up is down and hamburgers eat people." -Familyguyman
"I'll get to it tomorrow." -Heropsychodreamer01

User avatar
HPD
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Mentat
Location: The Mountain

Post by HPD » Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:32 pm

Nobody wrote:Now, writing out all of this for every CCO we think needs changes would be very useful and possibly even necessary. However, the bullet points we made weren't originially for the CCO creators or the public. It was posted in the rater discussion forum to get HPD's attention only. This is why we have yet to elaborate and why PMs would probably have been the better choice.
Wait a second. This topic has been created by Treedweller in the AW2 CCO Forum, not RDF. He has decided to make it public, not me.

I have nothing to do with all this. I have decided to step down from rating a while ago, so I leave decisions like these up to the raters.

However, I do have to say that not everything seems that fair to me. As some people commented on before, there are insufficient reasons given of why all these changes have to be made. What I'd rather like to see is that the current Raters (Nobody, DTaeKim and Tronn Bonne) would hand out an in-depth and well thought of rating of every CO in the HoF. That would give the creators a much better view on what needs to be changed.

But one thing I really need to ask you. Why are you focusing on improving COs that have already pretty much reached their ultimate form? There are lots of other CCOs lying in wait in the Rating Center that could use a good rating. Why not rate them and try to help people get their CO in the Hall, instead of trying to kick the old CCOs out of it?

Remember that the creators have worked VERY hard back in the day to tweak their COs to the level they currently are. And now you're trying to shove them out again. I'm not trying to say that what you're trying to achieve is wrong, it's your own decision. But I do want to warn you that some people might get a bit upset because of this.


On another note, I'm feeling that AWBW has a rather large influence on Rating standards. And for some reason I don't like the thought of it...


Perhaps I should comment more on the stuff that happens on RDF...
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

User avatar
Oracle of Wuffing
Location: Wuffily wuffing somewhere.

Post by Oracle of Wuffing » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:08 am

Oh my gosh there's actually a few people that actually agree with me I feel special.

Erm, first off, regarding the creativity section critiques:
The three power quotes, three super power quotes, tradition is nothing more than a tradition with no real-life backing behind it whatsoever. Ingame COs haven't ever made the distinction between COP and SCOP quotes (except Sturm and Von Bolt, but that's on a technicality) and not all of them have six quotes. It's just something added for fun to give the creator that sort of freedom. Again, adding quotes only helps understand the CCO, I agree on that, but I think it's worth mentioning that it's supposed to be a "lol fun" thing.
Nobody wrote:Cena starts at 90/100 stats, and has a D2D where is favors the CO that does better D2D. That is to say that he will most likely be staying 90/100 throughout before powers come into play.
I was under the impression that 90/100 day-to-day was a very minor weakness that was pretty much ignorable... By the face of Saint Sneaky Pete, we all know the "Jess's powers make her better at Sea and Air warfare than you'd think" arguement, and she wasn't changed in the balance hack. Sami gets 90/100 direct units, and I've never heard that many complaints about how that hinders gameplay. <_< Granted, I'm somewhat out of the loop.

Regardless, lowered starting stats seem like a good balancing factor to me. This was also before the First Turn Advantage counter, so if Cena started as Orange Star, setting 100/100 troops at the start could easily rarely- if not never- fall below the 100 threshold. Even after the FTA counter and using modern features, I think it might still be possible to play a game that also ignores that weakness... Provided, like, you weren't playing against Kanbei, Javier, or maybe Eagle.
Nobody wrote:Now, writing out all of this for every CCO we think needs changes would be very useful and possibly even necessary. However, the bullet points we made weren't originially for the CCO creators or the public. It was posted in the rater discussion forum to get HPD's attention only. This is why we have yet to elaborate and why PMs would probably have been the better choice.
Look, HPD agrees with me, this list is unacceptable without the elaboration and discussion that I hope has taken place. Even if this was passed through PM, it wouldn't have done much good. Posting the elaboration to the public, however, would have done good. Those that make CCOs- not just the Hall of Famers, mind you- would probably have a chance to adjust to these new modern cool super happy standards, and I hope you agree with me that the better adjusted they are to the standards, the less work you need to do in commenting and rating COs... Which is a win-win situation.

How about we just rename the "Hall of Fame" to the "Revolving Door of Fame"? While I don't know much about Halls of Fame, I'm pretty certain that once you're in one, you only get removed for very drastic circumstances.

Again, I'm not a rater, so my opinion must hold very little on the subject. However, I am a site staffer, and I don't the idea of removing information from the site when a lot of it is generally good, and the site itself is relatively incomplete.
Image
CumulusCentral : It's dot-com!
"He's gonna win..." The Ever-Loving Linkman, talking about my Character Battle Predictions.

Nobody

Post by Nobody » Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:09 am

Posting the list that we had originally posted was a mistake. If we had done it the proper way, we would have given heavy comments on each CCO and PM'd the creator. The only thing that this really achieved was giving the public the knowledge that we are reviewing the HoF CCOs. For anything else, this thread didn't serve much of a purpose.

Now, as for hacking versus AWBW, isn't the main point overall to have all of the COs at the same level for competitive versus play while keeping creativity and diversity? We aren't challenging the creativity and diversity of these CCOs, which is why we would rather have these CCOs fixed rather than removed. We are challenging the balance of many of these CCOs based on the theories out there and experience from, yes, competitive play using AW2, AWDS, and AWBW. If anything, we are using more AW2 balance than AWDS balance since AWBW uses the slow AW2 charging and has all of the AW2 mechanics.

Now why would hacking be greater than AWBW? Currently, the only significant difference is some inconsistant CO stats. FTA counters are a part of this game now, whether you use AWBW or hacks. If you wanted a game on AWBW with Hawke vs Eagle, it would be identical to having a game on AW2 since no one uses Eagle's COP anyway, making the slight difference there moot.

If you took a look at some of the rates, there was little backing posted for some parts. For example, CO Newbie's powers had good marks apparently because "it has a name". The rates weren't masterpieces back then, and the rating standard has apparently changed over time.

As for rating the current CCOs, we do not have a number system anymore. We could give a number rating to all of the CCOs on the list, which aren't very many in the first place, but instead we are only commenting as though it were a number rate without giving a number score. If the CCO isn't close to an S-rank, is there really an advantage of giving a score over giving the helpful comments that we try to give? We have looked at more than Edge. Alexander too will likely join Edge and Eric is the next CCO we are looking at.

90/100 stats are quite a significant weakness in competitive play. Balance hack Grit had 90/100 directs and 120/100 indirects, and he was significantly underpowered. The reason no one has complained about Sami is because her strengths or 130/100 soldiers and 1.5* capture rate are so large that she really needs a weakness to balance it out. Jess has always been weaker on island hopping maps despite her powers. Even starting at 100/100 would still be an underpowered D2D as no CO is worse than bland, meaning it would only go below 100/100 and almost never above if the two players were of same skill.

As for comparing Cena's COP to Adder's COP, Adder's COP is undercosted like you said. However, that is because of a weaker D2D than the average CO. Cena has an even weaker D2D, but his COP isn't significantly better than that of Adder. 10 attack if extremely major D2D, as seen with the difference between Andy and Hawke. AWDS charging would actually help Cena if anything.

Again, the mindset at the time seemed to put bland as the standard, but there was not a single CO besides AW2 Flak who was worse than bland D2D in AW2, even those with a significant weakness. These days there is a better understanding of balance since a lot of time has passed with experimenting in various things. Xen's balance hack is on a higher version and is still being tweaked. Our ideas of balance have changed over time.

This was a poor way to show the CCO creators or the public what needed to be changed. However, I do believe the Hall of Fame doesn't quite accurately show what the near-perfect CCO represents, as do the other raters. This is why the CCOs are asked to be fixed first, rather than being booted immediately. We want these same CCOs in the Hall of Fame, but they need some tinkering first.

User avatar
HPD
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Mentat
Location: The Mountain

Post by HPD » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:08 am

Nobody wrote:The rates weren't masterpieces back then, and the rating standard has apparently changed over time.
The way you say this makes me feel quite offended. You talk like you know all about it now and that the raters who gave S-Ranks to those COs back in the day were just a bunch of amateurs who had no knowledge at all about the game mechanics. Well, I seriously beg to differ here. The ratings of the older days were of superb standards, and most of them used up well over an hour to complete. The Raters were the people who had the most knowledge of game mechanics of almost everyone on the entire internet. I seriously doubt that you and your raters are that much better now. You seem to think very highly of yourself here..

As for the rest of your comments about AWBW and hacking. I really don't know what any of that has hardly anything to do with rating. I think that you are completely missing the point of what rating is all about. When Crystal and myself were setting up the whole Rating Center, the whole thing was intended to be a display for creativeness. We stretched the boundaries of AW, trying to think beyond what the game itself had to offer. We were thinking of new abilities, new powers and how they would be working with the game itself. It was all about an entirely theoretical debate about how things could possibly work out when we'd put a new CCO into the game. Many interesting ideas passed before our eyes, and we had some great ideas ourselves as well. The whole rating was supposed to be a discussion or a monologue about what we thought a certain CCO would be like in the game. The points themselves were just a formality, a score to keep track of how good we found the idea and how good we thought that they were balanced. What you are doing now is comparing a certain CCO to the way you play and the way you use sources like AWBW to compare it with. You are solely focusing on standards set by others. Of course, the influence of AWBW can't be neglected. But surely it can't be the only tool you use to judge if a CO is good or not? CCO building is looking at what is theoretically possible with the game mechanics that come with the AW games. And ratings are not just ways to validate balance. Back in the time 'were ratings weren't masterpieces', ratings were almost works of art. They viewed not only balance, but they also offered well-thought of strategical takes on CCOs, suggestions about possible tweaks and interesting commentary on how the character could be improved.

As for ditching the number system, I think that with this post, you have just completely destroyed the Rating system as we know it. If you continue with the way you are going now, you lose the whole Rating Center. It was at an all time low activity for the past 2 months, ever since the raters of the old days quit rating, and you have done little to get its activity back up. Remember that the RC is also your responsibility now and not just mine. I personally think that disposing of the score system would mean disposing of ratings in general. You are just resorting to giving away commentary now. I'm sorry, but the old system was the main reason that the RC even existed in the first place. Now it's nothing more than an extension of the Design Room, where someone posts a map every 50 years or so. I am expecting not much more activity in the RC if you continue this way.

It's like all three of you are deliberately destroying the RC as we know it. You are trying to kill pretty much every CCO in the Hall of Fame, you throw the old rating system in the trash and only give away brief comments on how to improve balance. Or say that a CCO is still missing a quote.

I seriously disapprove of your posts, Nobody. From my viewpoint you are completely destroying the RC. And for what reason? Because AWBW is your new God of balance? Seriously, this is going out of control..

I might not be one of the raters anymore, but I still think that you should be aware of the way I think about the way you guys are running this at the moment. HPD is NOT pleased.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

User avatar
CO_Frosty
Location: Fortaleza/Ceara/Brazil

Post by CO_Frosty » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:43 am

Wait, the ENTIRE numeric system was ditched? I thought the commentators would comments and a very few CCOs would advance to the rating circle where would be rated...as in rated with a rating rubric and that stuff. Well, that sucks >_>;;

Without a numeric system, the decision of which COs will get HoFed and which COs not will be incredibly biased. I can count with one hand the times the result of a numeric rate was similar to what I expected, and one of them was because of my personal bias, ironically Aira's rate on CW >_>;;, if more than one person decides that, the bias may be smaller, but its still there and there is also the debate capacities, as in, soon or later, a good debator can change the other's opinion, making it less fair, while a numerical rate is safier and way more solid than mere opinions...mainly if you consider that one year from now, your opinions will mean BS and the next rating circle wcan easily disagree and unHoF the COs, like you are doing now. Not to mention that numerical rates are a tradition ever since the Red Crystal board, on 2004, before I even joined...and I am here for a reasonable time.

Also, I agree with HPD regarding the standarts. You wasn't here on prevoius WWN, it was incredibly hard to get a S-rank or even close to it, only the best of the best got it, and they got HoFed because they were the best of the best of that time, before the avalanche of new ideas, before AWDS, when those ideas were considered original (like fireboost on different weathers). HoF isn't the group of perfect COs you should aim it, or, at least IMO, obsolutely no COs would be there, since every CCO have severe flaws, including Edge's artillery dependant abilities, Ember's blandness, Eric's poor ability on wide maps, etc etc etc. The Hall of Fame are the CCOs that represent the best of their time, and the current ones ARE the best of their time. There is no such thing as renew your HoF license....you can try to tweak the CO and see if it can represent the nowadays standarts.

(BTW, suggestion, I would love if you include the date the CCO was HoFed, for timeline references).

Long Story Short, the old raters and old CCOs were based on the old standarts, the theorical standarts from RC and AW2CCODebate forum, while the new raters and COs are based on hacks, AWBW and the lack of new concepts. You can't and should not expect both to be the same or even similar and even worse try to change something that is over your time, or you should, like OoW said, rename the "Hall of Fame" the "Revolving Door of Fame".

Rant over.

Nobody

Post by Nobody » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:56 am

I'm very sorry if you were offended. I did not intend to say that the old rates were not well thought out or well-done. What I meant was that it was difficult to look at some of the older rates to see why some CCOs had the scores that they had. Had I looked at the older threads, it would have been clearer what some of the ratings meant.

Again, I didn't mean to say that anything to offend anyone. I do not think that the newer raters are better raters. I meant that we have had a longer time to look at the collected data. I'm sure many raters have changed the way they view balance over time. It was an issue of time and not an issue of the people involved.

The reason I used AWBW was for when CG said that these COs were hacked in and tested. I was saying what my experiences were and how there were other means of testing besides the balance hack. I didn't make that clear though, and it does appear to be a rant on AWBW testing.

As for removing the rating, giving number scores is something that I'm nnot sure of. I wouldn't mind giving them if they were necessary. If you do believe they are necessary, then I would gladly comply. I can see the value of them; it was simply a lack of activity that made removing the numbers seem like a good idea. I'm not set one way or the other on how that goes.

The review of the Hall of Fame CCOs was not an attack on the Hall of Fame; we would like to see the same CCOs there. I'm not sure whose idea it was to look at these CCOs, I simply looked at them and thought that many were unbalanced. If you disagree, then I hope we could discuss them further as I simply don't see some of them as perfectly balanced. The ideas are good and thematic, which is the main part of CCOs and what we all want. However, I do believe striking the perfect balance with the ideas is a good thing to achieve as well.

I am unsure of how to get more activity out of the CCO forums. With CW around, people are taking their ideas there since it is easier to get their CCO programmed into it than find their CCO in the Hall of Fame. The rates themselves were probably a large incentive, so yes, I think that it could be a good idea to bring it back. Other than that, I do not have much of an idea.

I don't speak for all of the raters when I type this out. Some of these things are personal feelings. If I'm not fit to be a rater, then you can go ahead and remove me. I have tried to help, but I won't argue if you think that I'm doing damage to the system.

User avatar
HPD
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Mentat
Location: The Mountain

Post by HPD » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:59 am

6 walls of text in 7 posts! This reminds me of the old days...
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

User avatar
Treedweller

Post by Treedweller » Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:03 am

I'd also like to apologize for posting this thread... I should've simply elected to have PMed the creators about the changes, that way the raters could discuss with the creators the precise reasoning behind what they feel. It's just, y'know, WWN laziness getting to me >_>

User avatar
Sven

Post by Sven » Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:07 am

hey HPD, wanna see something funny?

http://www.warsworldnews.com/index.php? ... ndings.php

oh wait, there's nothing to see.

hmm, let's see something here...

you haven't played this game competitively since at least July 1st, 2006, if not earlier. now, this just seems like a personal attack. but let's look at the current raters.

2/3 of them are on here, and both are in the top 3.

basically, before raters had no qualifications in terms of actual gameplay. making a CO does not essentially mean you're able to rate a CO.

now we have something in our raters. we have some of the best players of the game, and some of the best, for lack of a better word, theorytards. the ability to play this game goes hand in hand with the ability to theorytard. these players are more then accomplished theorytards, meaning quite simply, i'm going to respect their opinion a lot more then i'm going to respect yours, i'm going to respect their opinion a lot more then the opinions of 6 months ago.

I'm sorry, but I consider none of the old WWN raters an accomplished theorytard, nor an accomplished player at the current time, most were never accomplished players or theorytards period. This game changes as new things are discovered, likewise, things around the game will change- including the hall of fame.

User avatar
HPD
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Mentat
Location: The Mountain

Post by HPD » Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:30 am

So you mean that I've lost all credibility just because I'm not playing competitively through AWBW? That's ridiculous, Sven. And I seriously do NOT believe that being a good competitive player is grounds for being a good CCO rater. And one's capability at playing AW gives one credibility on these matters. Competitive play and CCO Rating are two seperate things that should not be viewed in the way you are viewing this right now. For example, ThrawnFett marks the bottom of the Ladder standings. And yet, he's been one of the best raters I know for a long time.

Competitive playing makes you focus on how to win a match and what strategical moves you should use to make your chance to win as greatly as possible. It focuses on constant tweaking of your personal skills and yes, a lot of theoretical knowledge about the game.

But CCO Rating is about something else. When rating, you have to look past the current ways to play a game and think past the current borders of gameplay. This thing is purely theoretical. Of course, having played competitevely might help you in some way, but almost everything is about thinking things through. The main requirements are that you understand how the game works, thouroughly, and that you are able to understand what could happen when such a CO would be placed into the game and what changes that would make to possible strategies. You need to connect every aspect of the game to one CCO and think of how it could work even better.

I could go on with that if you like. Hell, I could probably write a complete NaNoWriMo project on CCO Rating and Creating alone (sorry, I just can't get it out of my mind right now). But I hope you are getting my point. RATING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH COMPETITIVE PLAYING.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

User avatar
CO_Frosty
Location: Fortaleza/Ceara/Brazil

Post by CO_Frosty » Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:31 am

Weird Sven...I don't see you here as well, >_>. You haven't really played an entire competitive match (except for the current Bittmanthegreat vs Deoxy) for what, 2 months? and you are the most active theorytard I know >_>;;

The fact that the previous raters aren't active players right now doesn't really mean that they are..."outdated" for the lack of a better word. For example, Frank and HPD were raters for 6 months ago. Frank I believe its clear...he was the first place of the old ladder since its very beginning and HPD had a almost flawless record of, I believe, 10 wins and 1 lose...or maybe 6 wins and 1 lose...I dunno, I only know that only Frank managed to beat him. FGM was also very active on the old ladder, Linky was active and good, ThrawnFett was and is somewhat active, etc etc etc. A big number of raters were active good players at least at the time they did those rates, making it less "guessing numbars!!1!!" and more based on the actual battles. Not to mention that most rates were composed of a detailed analysis of the abilities on most situations (and I still remember the behemoth rate HPD gave Bullet Bill >_>) analysis that not necessarily have to be experimented on actual battles to be done, mainly if you consider that each CO will have its own playstyle and will face situations you can't reproduce on AWBW, for example.

Good for you that you don't consider them accomplished theorytards according to the "new" standarts, but they ARE accomplished theorytards according to the "old" standarts, the stardarts used to do those CCOs, standarts that aren't necessarily worse than the current ones.

User avatar
Sven

Post by Sven » Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:41 am

HPD wrote:So you mean that I've lost all credibility just because I'm not playing competitively through AWBW? That's ridiculous, Sven. And I seriously do NOT believe that being a good competitive player is grounds for being a good CCO rater. And one's capability at playing AW gives one credibility on these matters. Competitive play and CCO Rating are two seperate things that should not be viewed in the way you are viewing this right now. For example, ThrawnFett marks the bottom of the Ladder standings. And yet, he's been one of the best raters I know for a long time.
Yes, I believe you have lost all credibility by not knowing the full extent of tactics a created CO can use, and how they can counter the full extent of tactics that an enemy CO can use.

You simply don't know all the current tactics that COs are able to use. Without knowing these tactics, you cannot have a complete balanced rate. They go hand in hand, unfortunately, it is a pipedream to believe that they don't.

Not to pick on Thrawnfett, but unfortunately he often overlooks certain parts of COs that are abusable, both in his own creations, and how he rates COs. He considers the options he knows thoroughly yes, but there are some options he simply doesn't know! He cannot be expected to evaluate what he doesn't know, and therefore he doesn't make that brilliant of a rater. He is a solid rater yes, but everyone has their faults.

Competitive playing makes you focus on how to win a match and what strategical moves you should use to make your chance to win as greatly as possible. It focuses on constant tweaking of your personal skills and yes, a lot of theoretical knowledge about the game.
Competitive play is about using the optimal move every turn. An optimal move is a move that makes the optimal move of your opponent worse, ultimately bringing you closer to winning. The better the player you are, the more likely you are to consistently make optimal moves. If you consistently make optimal moves and are able to explain the ability to make optimal moves, you are a theorytard. It is not direct skill that accomplishes rating, but it is theorytard- the ability to debate the options of both COs in a game and pick a winner based on optimal play.
But CCO Rating is about something else. When rating, you have to look past the current ways to play a game and think past the current borders of gameplay. This thing is purely theoretical. Of course, having played competitevely might help you in some way, but almost everything is about thinking things through. The main requirements are that you understand how the game works, thouroughly, and that you are able to understand what could happen when such a CO would be placed into the game and what changes that would make to possible strategies. You need to connect every aspect of the game to one CCO and think of how it could work even better.
I fully agree with everything you said! The problem is, without being an accomplished player, you do *not* understand how this game works, and you cannot evaluate all the options or possible strategies. Neither can a good player/theorytard, but he gets far closer then someone who cannot play will. The good player is able to think things through, and has finetuned his ability to think things through in the game of AW.

It's simply a matter of how many options the rater is able to evaluate. A rater with no game experience can evaluate maybe 50/100. The rater with experience can do 75/100. Neither are even close to perfect, but the experience undeniably helps. And what we want is the best raters who consider the most options. Our current raters consider more options then the old raters do because of things found through competitive play.

Thus, rating, theorytarding, and AWBW game skill go hand in hand. If you're good at one, you should do fine in the others.
I could go on with that if you like. Hell, I could probably write a complete NaNoWriMo project on CCO Rating and Creating alone (sorry, I just can't get it out of my mind right now). But I hope you are getting my point. RATING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH COMPETITIVE PLAYING.
Rating and competitive playing are undeniably interwined. I understand your point, I just disagree with it.

Explain this NaNoWriMo thing?

EDIT: Good **** to COFrosty. I'm not any good at this game anymore. The raters in question are.

User avatar
Newbie
Location: SOS Brigade

Post by Newbie » Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:28 am

Remember that the creators have worked VERY hard back in the day to tweak their COs to the level they currently are.

Uh.... >_>

To an extent, I do agree with Sven's points. A great part of my dissatisfaction with Newbie in particular (Even at the time of its original conception) was the fact that I had little to no experience in AW. (To give you an idea, my only competition was a 12 year old and the GBA AI. >_>) Extending from that dissatisfaction with him is the fact that, after the metagame "changed" (More like went full circle.) He really has no good way to break meat shields.

....Not to mention the CO looked like as if it was written by Unakau >_>

For example, CO Newbie's powers had good marks apparently because "it has a name".

In case you're wondering, he already justified a high score for both COPs, it's just that he took off one point for each COP for not having a name.

...Newbie was 88/100 before the names were added. It's not that hard to see why they were added.

Right now I'm thinking of reversing the original concept- A thought that, might I add, was seriously considered "back in the day"- and giving him the boost for engagements with the counterattack present to separate him from Javier.[/list]
Image
Credit to Sasquatch.
"Well, out loud, I said, "What the ****!?"
However, when I translated it on the internet, it came out, "Oh, it's a game." Lost in translation, you know?" ~ Shadowdude

User avatar
DTaeKim
Star CO
Star CO
Rank: War Room Legend
Location: In your base, killing your d00ds

Post by DTaeKim » Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:33 am

Wow. When we decided to look at the HoF again, I expected a backlash, but not to this extent. Anyway, to eliminate some of the mystery behind the Rating Circle, the following is the entire debate regarding CCO Edge.

[18:44] DTaeKim: Now that's out of the way, were there any CCOs who needed our attention?
[18:44] Zeon Zaku: I'll take care of it in a few minutes but HPD will probably want us to elaborate on our reasons.
[18:44] Zeon Zaku: Edge?
[18:44] DTaeKim: I was thinking of Edge and Alexander.
[18:44] Nobody: yeah
[18:45] Zeon Zaku: Ok
[18:46] Zeon Zaku: Where are their topics again?
[18:46] Nobody: (Link: viewtopic.php?t=2028&highlight=edge)htt ... light=edge
[18:47] Zeon Zaku: Thanks.
[18:47] Nobody: (Link: viewtopic.php?t=2056&highlight=alexande ... =alexander
[18:47] DTaeKim: Who shall we tackle first?
[18:48] Zeon Zaku: Edge I guess.
[18:49] DTaeKim: I'd like to start out by saying that I never liked Edge's background.
[18:49] DTaeKim: From a creative standpoint, but it works.
[18:49] Zeon Zaku: Yep.
[18:50] DTaeKim: Denying him access to the HoF simply because of a personal bias in the biography isn't a good reason.
[18:50] DTaeKim: That being said, his biography is sufficient.
[18:50] Zeon Zaku: I agree.
[18:50] Nobody: It's odd how ThrawnFett said the same thing.
[18:51] DTaeKim: Really?
[18:51] Nobody: He really dislikes Edge, which is why he never felt like adding Edge to the list.
[18:51] DTaeKim: He gave him the S-rank, so something must've been right.
[18:52] Nobody: He said he tries to keep the bias out of rates. <_<
[18:52] DTaeKim: I think my dislike stems from his sprite.
[18:52] DTaeKim: <_<
[18:52] DTaeKim: Anyway...
[18:52] Nobody: Edge does encourage an arty spam, which isn't very fun.
[18:52] DTaeKim: Time to look at that D2D. I never got a real good look at it.
[18:52] DTaeKim: Okay, well, let's use our favorite three units: Artillery, Tank, and Anti-Air.
[18:52] Zeon Zaku: Hehe
[18:52] DTaeKim: The bread-and-butter units of all units.
[18:53] DTaeKim: Er...the army.
[18:53] DTaeKim: Artillery spam is a definite strategy.
[18:53] DTaeKim: Hey, what did we say about Armand?
[18:54] Zeon Zaku: Hmm?
[18:54] DTaeKim: Wait, Armand isn't in the HoF.
[18:54] DTaeKim: Never mind.
[18:54] DTaeKim: Hmm...
[18:54] DTaeKim: You know, he plays like balance mode Grit.
[18:54] Zeon Zaku: You mean Linky's defense CCO right?
[18:54] DTaeKim: Yeah.
[18:55] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, he is not in the HoF.
[18:55] DTaeKim: Yeah, I remember that. A little late...
[18:55] DTaeKim: Edge, D2D, plays like balance mode Grit.
[18:55] DTaeKim: Except he's...better.
[18:55] DTaeKim: Now, I know balance mode Grit needs a change, since a couple of test games were done and Grit was outclassed by Sami.
[18:56] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[18:58] DTaeKim: However, a CO cannot live by Artillery spam alone.
[18:58] DTaeKim: A couple of Rocket units usually hurt an Artillery spam to a degree.
[18:58] DTaeKim: HIs boost to Recons hurt the Rockets, but also, his Rockets cannot do as well against other units.
[18:59] DTaeKim: His navy blows.
[18:59] DTaeKim: As well as his air force.
[18:59] Zeon Zaku: Hehe
[18:59] Nobody: His subs are only good against B Ships, which only makes them more balanced. >_>
[18:59] DTaeKim: His Cruisers are stronger against other subs.
[18:59] Nobody: His Cruisers REALLY show why Subs suck.
[18:59] DTaeKim: Which is overkill.
[18:59] DTaeKim: <_<
[18:59] DTaeKim: The faster Xen gets that price change to subs, the better.
[18:59] Zeon Zaku: Yeah
[19:00] Nobody: B Copters aren't good since the only reasonable target they have a boost against is the Md Tank.
[19:00] DTaeKim: Kind of hurts the B copter's versatility.
[19:00] DTaeKim: That's notable.
[19:00] Nobody: I suppose they could hit a rocket.
[19:00] Nobody: <_<
[19:01] DTaeKim: As if the Rocket wasn't already paper-thin.
[19:01] Zeon Zaku: Hehe
[19:01] DTaeKim: Anyway, it's kind of strange, but I think his D2D is balanced.
[19:01] Nobody: It probably is IMO.
[19:01] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[19:02] DTaeKim: He plays like Grit and has a sense of balance similar to Jess.
[19:02] DTaeKim: The only potential for abuse is Artillery spam, which can only get you so far.
[19:02] Nobody: his air sucks, and his sea is lacking too for the most part
[19:02] DTaeKim: <_<
[19:02] Nobody: kind of like Jess
[19:02] DTaeKim: 90/100 Bombers is notable.
[19:03] DTaeKim: *Checks the damage chart.
[19:03] DTaeKim: He still OHKOs Infantry and Mechs.
[19:03] Zeon Zaku: In the balanced mode?
[19:04] DTaeKim: Yes.
[19:04] DTaeKim: And non-balance as well.
[19:04] Zeon Zaku: Ok.
[19:04] Nobody: He loses OHKs for the most part, and really only gains some with artillery.
[19:04] DTaeKim: However, EVERY other matchup is either a guaranteed survival or 50% chance of survival.
[19:04] DTaeKim: And his Fighters can no longer OHKO copters.
[19:05] Zeon Zaku: Well that is less significant considering how rare copters are these days.
[19:05] DTaeKim: True.
[19:05] DTaeKim: Well, his D2D is fine.
[19:05] DTaeKim: We're all okay with that?
[19:05] Nobody: I suppose.
[19:06] Zeon Zaku: More or less yes.
[19:06] DTaeKim: Now the COP...
[19:06] Nobody: Normally, how often do you attack when the unit you have is cheaper?
[19:06] DTaeKim: Not often.
[19:06] Nobody: tank vs AA, AA vs B Copter, arty vs stuff
[19:06] DTaeKim: Mech vs. insert unit here.
[19:06] Zeon Zaku: MD vs Neo.
[19:06] DTaeKim: That's one matchup I don't do often.
[19:07] DTaeKim: 45% isn't that great, but anyway...
[19:07] Zeon Zaku: I know but it is more worthwhile with Edge.
[19:07] DTaeKim: Right.
[19:07] DTaeKim: So we have a few matchups that greatly benefit.
[19:08] Nobody: Big Tanks are virtually 90/100 except against themselves.
[19:08] DTaeKim: Okay, I just crunched some numbers for Edge during the COP.
[19:08] DTaeKim: Tanks vs. Anti-Air = 104%
[19:09] DTaeKim: AA vs. B copter = 192%
[19:09] Nobody: lol
[19:09] DTaeKim: Artillery vs. Tank = 112%
[19:09] Zeon Zaku: Hmmm
[19:09] DTaeKim: Artillery vs. AA = 120%
[19:09] DTaeKim: In summary, he OHKOs the normal matchups.
[19:10] DTaeKim: *Checks higher-tier units.
[19:10] Nobody: He also can meatshield with tanks bigger I guess.
[19:10] Nobody: *better
[19:10] DTaeKim: AA vs. Md. Tank = 72%
[19:10] DTaeKim: AA vs. Neotank = 64%
[19:10] DTaeKim: This guy may be the best counter to Colin I've ever seen.
[19:10] DTaeKim: Anyway...
[19:10] Nobody: The AA deals that much damage?
[19:10] DTaeKim: Whoops.
[19:11] DTaeKim: That should be Artly.
[19:11] Nobody: oh good <_<;;
[19:11] DTaeKim: I wish a AA can do that much.
[19:11] DTaeKim: <_<
[19:11] Zeon Zaku: Yeah...
[19:11] DTaeKim: Okay, now, the questionable aspect.
[19:11] DTaeKim: He gets 190% counterattacks with the lower-tier units.
[19:11] DTaeKim: Which, with all due practicality, only applies to Tanks.
[19:12] DTaeKim: Holy cow.
[19:12] Nobody: I thought it would 1.6 * 1.3 = 2.08 counters.
[19:12] Nobody: Isn't that how Kanbei works?
[19:12] DTaeKim: I thought it was a straight offense bonus.
[19:13] Nobody: AWDS Kanbei has 160 attack with 2x counters for his SCOP, and people say he reaches 320 attack.
[19:13] Zeon Zaku: <.<
[19:13] Nobody: I think it's a multiplier.
[19:14] Nobody: I suppose we could take the time to check if we wanted to.
[19:14] DTaeKim: You're right.
[19:14] DTaeKim: I just checked the topic, so he has 2.08x counters...
[19:14] DTaeKim: So I just calculate the damage normally, and then multiply it by 2.08x?
[19:15] Nobody: yeah
[19:15] Zeon Zaku: ok
[19:15] DTaeKim: Okay, if I'm doing this right.
[19:15] DTaeKim: I'll go through my calculations.
[19:15] DTaeKim: Md. Tank vs. Edge Tank = 85% * .9 = 76%
[19:15] DTaeKim: I assumed Edge gets 3 HP left.
[19:16] DTaeKim: 55% * .3 = 16%
[19:16] DTaeKim: Now I multiply that by 2.08 and I get...33%
[19:16] DTaeKim: Not bad.
[19:17] DTaeKim: I only decided to use Tanks, since that's pretty much the only unit that matters.
[19:18] Nobody: yeah XD
[19:18] Zeon Zaku: Hehe
[19:18] Nobody: Where did Guesty go anyway?
[19:18] DTaeKim: Dunno.
[19:19] DTaeKim: On average, Edge deals 2 HP of counterattack damage.
[19:19] DTaeKim: Anyway...
[19:20] DTaeKim: Summary of Edge's COP: OHKOs with most low-tier units, Tanks deals 2.08x counterattacks.
[19:20] DTaeKim: Considering these strengths, what's the point of the SCOP?
[19:20] DTaeKim: Let's look.
[19:20] Nobody: Still bland in even unit matchups though.
[19:20] DTaeKim: Yeah.
[19:20] Zeon Zaku: Ok
[19:21] DTaeKim: In most matchups, he maims the other unit.
[19:21] Nobody: It makes even unit matchups a bonus.
[19:22] DTaeKim: So those units get effectively 130/110 units.
[19:22] Nobody: -20% costs
[19:22] Zeon Zaku: Also, I posted our results (in skeleton form but we can elaborate if someone questions them) of the HoF CCOs in the Rater's Discussion forum.
[19:22] DTaeKim: Thanks.
[19:22] Nobody: first strike in even unit matchups
[19:23] DTaeKim: Um...
[19:23] DTaeKim: 130/110 doesn't factor in Counter Break, does it?
[19:23] Nobody: I think it does.
[19:23] DTaeKim: Dear God.
[19:23] Zeon Zaku: I hope it doesn't/
[19:23] DTaeKim: I'll do a quick test.
[19:25] DTaeKim: It seems like it, but I can't confirm.
[19:26] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, that is tricky.
[19:27] DTaeKim: It does.
[19:27] DTaeKim: I could've used better mathcups, but I just tested 110/110 Counterbreak.
[19:27] DTaeKim: Fighter vs. Fighter.
[19:28] DTaeKim: Guaranteed 4 HP on the victim.
[19:28] DTaeKim: Since 110% offense is 60%, it makes sense.
[19:28] Nobody: yeah
[19:28] Zeon Zaku: Hmm
[19:29] Nobody: So the enemy can really only do the matchups of tank vs AA and etc, or the enemy does the rape matchups of Md Tank vs Tank or something
[19:29] DTaeKim: Rape matchups are the only real ones.
[19:29] Nobody: yeah
[19:30] DTaeKim: Which, to think of it, doesn't change much.
[19:30] DTaeKim: It just SERIOUSLY discourages engaging Edge on his terms.
[19:30] DTaeKim: If he uses the COP, retreat.
[19:30] DTaeKim: Er...the SCOP.
[19:31] Nobody: Hmm, the -20% costs does have a small effect too.
[19:31] DTaeKim: Aside fro the even mathcups, what else changes?
[19:32] Nobody: nothing really
[19:32] Nobody: Rocket vs Md Tank
[19:32] Nobody: or vise-versa
[19:32] Zeon Zaku: Yeah
[19:32] Nobody: tank vs arty
[19:32] DTaeKim: Nothing real serious.
[19:32] Nobody: tank vs AA
[19:32] Nobody: yeah
[19:32] DTaeKim: Well, I say his SCOP is a go.
[19:33] DTaeKim: Nice, a CO with two different and distinctly useful powers.
[19:33] DTaeKim: The COP rapes with his D2D.
[19:33] DTaeKim: The SCOP is an incredible "the best offense is a good defense" power.
[19:33] DTaeKim: No real problems here.
[19:34] Zeon Zaku: I suppose although the CO Powers are too similar and feed off of the D2D too much for my tastes.
[19:35] DTaeKim: The way I see it, the COP is his offensive COP. It is OHKOs in all but a few matchups.
[19:35] DTaeKim: The SCOP would be his game-changing power.
[19:35] DTaeKim: On smaller maps, he shines.
[19:35] DTaeKim: Larger maps diminish his D2D.
[19:35] Zeon Zaku: True.
[19:36] DTaeKim: Well, I have no problems with adding him to the HoF.
[19:37] Nobody: So no more scores?
[19:37] DTaeKim: Nope.
[19:37] DTaeKim: We're done with scores. It's a consensus thing now.
[19:38] DTaeKim: IMO, it's easier this way.
[19:39] Zeon Zaku: Well Banzo has out a lot of work into him and even though I do not like the bio...or theme he is HoF worthy.
[19:39] DTaeKim: Nobody?
[19:39] Nobody: I have no major problems with him.
[19:40] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, I have no major problems with him either. Should we let HPD know?
[19:40] DTaeKim: Yeah.
[19:40] DTaeKim: You want to cover Alexander now, or put him off?
[19:40] DTaeKim: I guess we decide to put a CO in the Rater's Circle if that one catches someone's eye.
[19:43] Zeon Zaku: I will not have time tonight to look at Alexander but I should have time tomorrow. However, feel free to look at him tonight if you want to. I can always catch up tomorrow.
[19:43] DTaeKim: It's all right, I think it's more productive if we all take a look at the same time.
[19:43] DTaeKim: So Edge gets into the HoF.
[19:43] DTaeKim: I'll put Alexander in our waiting list.
[19:44] Zeon Zaku: Ok.
[19:44] *** Nobody has left the conversation.
Session Close (Group Conversation 23622): Tue Oct 10 19:44:13 2006
What can change the nature of a man?

User avatar
Oracle of Wuffing
Location: Wuffily wuffing somewhere.

Post by Oracle of Wuffing » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:22 pm

Nobody wrote:We aren't challenging the creativity and diversity of these CCOs,
Given the information regarding this project at the time it was posted, you were. And I still don't see any evidence that you aren't still.
Nobody wrote:If you took a look at some of the rates, there was little backing posted for some parts.
Well, since Newbie already explained the name thing... I'll point to the list as it is now.
Nobody wrote:If the CCO isn't close to an S-rank, is there really an advantage of giving a score over giving the helpful comments that we try to give?
Yes, that number helps put the comments into a more clearly defined context, so one can more easily see if the CCO was a good idea in the first place. It also helps other raters hop in and say, "omg dude, u liek rated too harsh ur doin it rong."

Further, I'd like to point out that, using the number system, comments were given with the number, thus arguing that "Score shouldn't be given over comments" is irrelevant.
Nobody wrote:The reason no one has complained about Sami is because her strengths or 130/100 soldiers and 1.5* capture rate are so large that she really needs a weakness to balance it out.
Okies, I'll have to agree with you that 120/100 on all units is so weak that it doesn't need a weakness to balance it out.
Nobody wrote:Even starting at 100/100 would still be an underpowered D2D as no CO is worse than bland, meaning it would only go below 100/100 and almost never above if the two players were of same skill.
Cena is a specialist CO. He specializes in staying ahead of the game. Specialist COs need a weakness. In this case, the strength is 120/100 units and the weakness is 90/100 units. That strength is larger than the weakness, which fits the AW2 strength and weakness concept.
Nobody wrote:Cena has an even weaker D2D, but his COP isn't significantly better than that of Adder. 10 attack if extremely major D2D, as seen with the difference between Andy and Hawke. AWDS charging would actually help Cena if anything.
The Golden Rules state in the "Good advice" section not to balance out a poor D2D with a strong power. Before I can agree to this, the rules must be re-written.
Nobody wrote:I am unsure of how to get more activity out of the CCO forums. With CW around, people are taking their ideas there since it is easier to get their CCO programmed into it than find their CCO in the Hall of Fame. The rates themselves were probably a large incentive, so yes, I think that it could be a good idea to bring it back.
Nobody, I do not see how reducing the amount of CCOs in the Hall of Fame and enforcing stricter rules in the Hall of Fame are going to encourage CCO submission.
Sven wrote:...these players are more then accomplished theorytards...
Sven wrote:Thus, rating, theorytarding, and AWBW game skill go hand in hand. If you're good at one, you should do fine in the others.
I don't see a need to comment until your mind is made up. Take your time.
DTaeKim wrote:Wow. When we decided to look at the HoF again, I expected a backlash, but not to this extent. Anyway, to eliminate some of the mystery behind the Rating Circle, the following is the entire debate regarding CCO Edge.
You're telling me that when the people involved got together and decided to toss some old system away, replace it with a cloak-and-daggers system that hides valuable information from the public, and then request to hold all of the previous works that do not conform to the new system at delete-point, you did not expect this extent of a backlash?

-_-

DTaeKim. This is the INTERNET. It is known for INTARWEB DRAMA.

Your Rating Circle, while I'm certain was a perfectly good concept on paper, clearly is not working. We have Treedweller, who has posted this list with no knowledge of why the list exists. We have HPD, who the list was intended for, who also does not like the list. We have Nobody (the member), who can defend a few points of the list but has no knowledge of the list on the whole. Then you post, and you don't even address the points Treedweller implied you'd try to. The only impression I am receiving is that this was an ill-thought, ill-planned, ill-executed... Somethingorother... That wants to change site content and delete the content that is not changed with permission.

I cannot support something that I think is ill-conceived, that has members that say it is ill-conceived, and has its previous equivalents say it is ill-conceived. And when this something tries to remove data from the site, that sentiment gets multiplied.

The only reason why I am opposing this is because the chance exists that data can be removed from the site. If this was a series of Olaf's Chair articles detailing, as your chatlog, the process that led you to these conclusions, I would support it. If this was just merely a debate tournament on the forum, I would not be against it. Heck, I wouldn't even have a problem if you just wanted your debate/rate (Derate?) posted right smack dab below the S-Rank rating that got the CO in the Hall of Fame.

But I am seeing a group of people that want to delete data, if the change is not made, for subjective and finicky reasons.
Image
CumulusCentral : It's dot-com!
"He's gonna win..." The Ever-Loving Linkman, talking about my Character Battle Predictions.

User avatar
Sven

Post by Sven » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:35 pm

Oh, you can take a quote out of context to avoid countering points. Want a cookie? There's theorytarding in terms of tactics, which alone won't make you a good rater, then there's theorytarding in terms of optimal moves. Optimal moves will make you a good rater.

Reading your post about Cena, you just demonstrated you probably didn't read what Nobody wrote, you probably don't understand this game, or at least, the concept of options and optimal moves.

Very simply, if Cena starts at 90/100, his optimal moves are always worse then his opponents. He will NEVER get his day to day going. Therefore, he is a piece of **** CO that is underpowered.

User avatar
Oracle of Wuffing
Location: Wuffily wuffing somewhere.

Post by Oracle of Wuffing » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:48 pm

Sven wrote:There's theorytarding in terms of tactics, which alone won't make you a good rater, then there's theorytarding in terms of optimal moves...
And you said that theorytarding goes hand-in-hand with multiplayer skills. Now you do not, now you specify beyond that statement. This is why I wanted you to make up your mind, because it is foolish to comment on a statement when the opponent can vaguely jump out of the way and say, "lol i meant sumthin different!"
Sven wrote:Very simply, if Cena starts at 90/100, his optimal moves are always worse then his opponents.
Huh.

Not even moving to capturing the surrounding cities?

Learn something every day.
Sven wrote:He will NEVER get his day to day going.
I still don't see where it was proven that 90/100 all unit stats is going to hinder him that much. Since he still has 100 defense, he can still do that "lol meatwall" thing with artilleries- granted, not as good as Grit, Jess, or whatnnot- which means that for a few turns of playing defensively, I could artillery wall most the rest of the game with 120/100 units... With 120/100 infantry... And should the funds arrive, 120/100 Recon/Tanks backing it up. Sure, I might lose a property or two in the process, but -lol depending on teh mapzor- it can be worth it.

Or, should I feel like it, I could break that artillery wall up (heaven forbid I use my artillery to try to guard vital points) and work on building a balanced army of 120/100 troops.

Of course, this is all ignoring the fact that it kinda breaks Cena's character to begin with 100/100 stats.
Image
CumulusCentral : It's dot-com!
"He's gonna win..." The Ever-Loving Linkman, talking about my Character Battle Predictions.

User avatar
Sven

Post by Sven » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:53 pm

The thing is, 100/100 optimal moves beat 90/100 optimal moves. That's a fact. He'll always lose more then he gains, so he'll never get it going.

90/100 makes a huge difference - I don't know where you gathered otherwise.

Anything Cena can do, other COs can do better. You're never going to get to 120/100 because you can never get Cena setup. Because other COs can do exactly what he does but with superior stats.

It's a matter of setup. To setup, you assume you're better then the opponent. That does not happen.

User avatar
DTaeKim
Star CO
Star CO
Rank: War Room Legend
Location: In your base, killing your d00ds

Post by DTaeKim » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:56 pm

Since Oracle of Wuffing demands more information, he shall have it. This is the conversations between myself and Tronn_Bonne regarding the HoF CCOs.

Session Start (lookingglass1103@hotmail.com:Zeon Zaku): Wed Sep 13 18:31:55 2006
[18:31] Zeon Zaku: Hi. I'm ready to talk about Cena when you are. Also, do you have Nobody's MSN address?
[18:32] DTaeKim: I do.
[18:32] DTaeKim: Give me a moment.
[18:32] Zeon Zaku: Ok.
[18:32] DTaeKim: sju88@hotmail.com
[18:32] DTaeKim: He's not on right now.
[18:32] Zeon Zaku: Thanks. I will add him now.
[18:32] DTaeKim: No problem.
[18:34] Zeon Zaku: Hmmm.... He does not seem to be responding.
[18:34] DTaeKim: He isn't on right now.
[18:34] DTaeKim: <_<
[18:34] Zeon Zaku: Oh, I misread your first post >.<
[18:34] DTaeKim: Heh.
[18:36] Zeon Zaku: Anyway, I can not stay on for too terribly long (an hour and a half at max) so do we want to talk about Cena in the meantime?
[18:36] DTaeKim: Sure.
[18:36] DTaeKim: I took a quick glance at him.
[18:36] DTaeKim: Bio could use some more, but I chalk it up to poor aging.
[18:37] DTaeKim: D2D seems underpowered...COP is fine...SCOP is underpowered.
[18:37] DTaeKim: Cena in brief.
[18:37] Zeon Zaku: I agree. The bio is lacking but it at least makes some sense. The rapper theme bugs me a little.
[18:38] Zeon Zaku: Still, the theme is a minor point.
[18:38] DTaeKim: Well, at least he uses it for the whole "rhythm" thing.
[18:39] Zeon Zaku: Yeah. That is why I am willing to accept it but I do feel it stretches things just a little bit. What is rather annoying (unless I missed it) is that he does not belong to any army in particular. That I would like to see fixed.
[18:39] DTaeKim: He doesn't have an army?
[18:39] DTaeKim: I missed that completely.
[18:40] DTaeKim: Okay, so he needs an army, more fleshing out in the biography...
[18:41] Zeon Zaku: The quotes were alright.
[18:43] DTaeKim: Could use more quotes.
[18:43] DTaeKim: He only had 4 power quotes, IIRC>
[18:43] Zeon Zaku: Correct. He also had two victory quotes which are unnecessary.
[18:43] DTaeKim: Yep.
[18:44] DTaeKim: Okay, so we have a missing army, more fleshing out in the biography, and two more power quotes and one less victory quote.
[18:44] Zeon Zaku: Yes.
[18:44] Zeon Zaku: That should take care of the creative section.
[18:46] DTaeKim: Now then, the technical section.
[18:46] DTaeKim: D2D, I feel he's underpowered.
[18:47] Zeon Zaku: Yes. He starts at his lowest possible attack power.
[18:47] DTaeKim: Destroying more units than your opponent is easy; if you're already winning.
[18:47] DTaeKim: Once he starts losing, it's only going to hurt him.
[18:48] Zeon Zaku: Correct. Furthermore, since he starts out at 90/100 he will have a harder time raising his attack power up. His CO Powers do affect that though.
[18:48] DTaeKim: Well, his 2-star COP helps.
[18:48] DTaeKim: But that means he relies on his COP to break even.
[18:49] Zeon Zaku: Exactly. It also means that he has an incentive to spam his COP until he gets 120/100 units day-to-day at which point it will be easier to maintain that attack boost.
[18:50] DTaeKim: D2D is underpowered, but that COP makes it balanced.
[18:50] DTaeKim: At least, that's what it seems to me.
[18:51] Zeon Zaku: Yeah but I am still somewhat dubious about it... I guess I just do not like the idea that he has to abuse his COP to compensate for his D2D.
[18:52] DTaeKim: In that aspect, it's kind of like AWDS Olaf.
[18:53] DTaeKim: Do you want 2 MD and 2 days of 130/110 and 120/100 stats, or 2 days of 130/110 and 2 days of 120/100?
[18:53] DTaeKim: Except Cena's SCOP isn't exactly that great, so it's COP spam.
[18:54] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, there is the problem. You would only ever use the SCOP if you are losing badly and you need the big boost that turn or you are already winning with 120/100 units.
[18:54] DTaeKim: Except his just gives 130/110 units.
[18:54] DTaeKim: So if you have 120/100 units, the SCOP only increases your offense by a bit.
[18:54] DTaeKim: So he needs a change in the SCOP.
[18:56] Zeon Zaku: Like I said, it is only useful if he has 90/100 units and needs the big attack boost for that turn or he has 120/100 units and his COP is pointless. Thus, a new SCOP is needed because his COP overshadows it too much since he needs to spam it to compensate for his D2D.
[18:56] DTaeKim: Agreed.
[18:56] DTaeKim: So I assume the current incarnation of 90/100 D2D and current COP are fine?
[18:57] Zeon Zaku: It balances out in a very awkward way but I am fine with it because it is something different.
[18:58] DTaeKim: Well, it's also AW2.
[18:58] DTaeKim: He's going to need that spammable COP to be competitive.
[18:59] Zeon Zaku: Of course, he would need a SCOP that has a big punch to make it worth using over the COP.
[18:59] DTaeKim: So he needs a change in the SCOP.
[18:59] DTaeKim: We are in agreeance over that.
[19:00] DTaeKim: So we need a more fleshed out biography and a change in the SCOP so the COP doesn't overshadow it.
[19:00] DTaeKim: Drops him from the HoF.
[19:00] Zeon Zaku: Agreed.
[19:00] DTaeKim: All righty.
[19:01] Zeon Zaku: I guess that about covers it. What is the next step from here?
[19:02] DTaeKim: We ought to post our conclusion of Cena in the Rating Circle topic.
[19:02] DTaeKim: Recommendation is to drop him from the HoF pending changes.
[19:02] DTaeKim: Then we check out the next CCO in the HoF.
[19:03] DTaeKim: WE also have a copule of CCOs who want to be checked on by the HoF: Treedweller's Alexander and Banzo's Edge.
[19:03] DTaeKim: First, I want to finish the HoF, so those two will ned to wait a bit.
[19:03] Zeon Zaku: I agree. Let us clean house first before looking at the newer CCOs.
[19:04] Zeon Zaku: The next HoF CCO to look at is Dawson.
[19:04] DTaeKim: Dawson, CG 292's CCO.
[19:05] Zeon Zaku: Correct.
[19:05] DTaeKim: Unique army warning: Crimson Eclipse.
[19:06] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, a few of these belong to their own custom armies but at least it is an army. (if not official)
[19:06] DTaeKim: True.
[19:06] DTaeKim: Bio is very nice though.
[19:07] DTaeKim: A bit more in the history, and it doesn't help that we know nothing about Crimson Eclipse.
[19:08] Zeon Zaku: Yeah. We only get the basics which is that the army's homeland was conquered by OS.
[19:08] Zeon Zaku: However, the bio is pretty good overall.
[19:08] Zeon Zaku: If a smidgen shorter than I would prefer.
[19:09] DTaeKim: It's a minor issue though.
[19:09] DTaeKim: It's longer than Cena's, for starters.
[19:09] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[19:09] DTaeKim: Their standards for the creative section was kind of low in the past.
[19:10] Zeon Zaku: True.
[19:10] Zeon Zaku: I really do not have any major complaints about the bio then. It could be longer and I am not a fan of custom armies but I say let both of those things slide.
[19:11] DTaeKim: Yeah.
[19:11] Zeon Zaku: He needs more quotes though.
[19:11] DTaeKim: A little more history in Crimson Eclipse, and that's all.
[19:11] DTaeKim: Ah, same issue with Cena.
[19:11] DTaeKim: This must be before they knew about the 6 power quotes.
[19:11] DTaeKim: Two more quotes and one less victory quote and he ought to be fine.
[19:12] Zeon Zaku: I agree. Overall the creative section is good. Some more history on Crimson Eclipse, two more CO Power quotes and one less victory quote.
[19:14] Zeon Zaku: I guess the technical section is next.
[19:14] DTaeKim: Eep.
[19:14] DTaeKim: This one is going to be a pain.
[19:15] DTaeKim: Give me a moment to read it once over.
[19:15] Zeon Zaku: Ok.
[19:17] Zeon Zaku: Correct me if I am wrong but does he repeat the 1.25 repair cost on allied properties twice?

[19:17] DTaeKim: It is repeated twice.
[19:18] Zeon Zaku: Hmmm... That is what I thought but I just wanted to make sure.
[19:23] Zeon Zaku:
I think the day-to-day is pretty balanced. Repairing on neutral properties can be very useful during the capture phase and early game. Furthermore, the +1 capture is naturally useful for the capture phase as well but he pays for both of these abilities with 1.25 repair costs on allied/neutral properties.
[19:23] Zeon Zaku: His ability to heal on enemy properties is countered by being able to only heal 1HP and have to pay 50% more for that repair. If anything, it might be slightly underpowered since 25%-50% increased repair costs can add up.
[19:23] DTaeKim: Assuming you EVER repair.
[19:23] DTaeKim: I never do repair units.
[19:23] Zeon Zaku: True. In that case he simply gets +1 capture.
[19:24] DTaeKim: According ot my playing style, he gets +1 capture.
[19:24] DTaeKim: At least on AWBW, most people just leave units to die, since they're meatshields.
[19:24] Zeon Zaku: True.
[19:25] Zeon Zaku: Yet we should set the metagame aside in order to consider the other effects.
[19:25] DTaeKim: True.
[19:26] Zeon Zaku: Hopefully the Indirect/Infantry spam strategy will die in the next AW game <_<; Anyway, my feeling is that the D2D is pretty balanced and mostly useful in the capture/early phases of the game.
[19:27] DTaeKim: Fades kind of late game, as he still plays bland.
[19:27] DTaeKim: Based on raw statistics, he's balanced.
[19:27] DTaeKim: We'll take a look at him considering the metagame later.
[19:27] DTaeKim: Now, that COP...
[19:28] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, that COP...
[19:28] DTaeKim: Kind of useless...
[19:28] Zeon Zaku: Sounds like magic >.<
[19:29] Zeon Zaku: It basically looks like a 20% defense boost for two stars which is actually fairly balanced (assuming 10% of that is the default boost)
[19:30] DTaeKim: It is.
[19:30] DTaeKim: Strictly speaking, it's balanced.
[19:30] DTaeKim: Metagame wise, it's useless.
[19:30] DTaeKim: Anyway...
[19:30] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, this CCO would not do well on AWBW.
[19:31] DTaeKim: SCOP time.
[19:31] Zeon Zaku: Yep.
[19:31] DTaeKim: Okay, 120% offense...
[19:31] DTaeKim: But man, look at that escondary part.
[19:31] Zeon Zaku: Yeah...
[19:32] DTaeKim: Let's see...
[19:32] DTaeKim: 55% matchup with SCOP in effect...
[19:32] DTaeKim: 120% defense means Dawson getse 44%.
[19:32] DTaeKim: Of which 20% is negated.
[19:32] DTaeKim: 24% total.
[19:32] DTaeKim: Which is equal to...
[19:33] DTaeKim: 57% defense.
[19:33] DTaeKim: Dawson is effectively 120/157%
[19:33] Zeon Zaku: If I am reading the SCOP correctly it looks like the effects last until his units take 2 HP of damage.
[19:34] DTaeKim: Right.
[19:34] DTaeKim: So the first strike, he has 157% defense.
[19:34] DTaeKim: The second strike, it's 120%.
[19:34] DTaeKim: Here's the kicker.
[19:34] Zeon Zaku: All that, plus the effects of the COP, for six stars...
[19:35] DTaeKim: Assuming 55% base damage, Dawson's units counter for 5 HP.
[19:35] DTaeKim: For that first strike.
[19:35] Zeon Zaku: Ugh... It looks downright overpowered to me.
[19:35] DTaeKim: Of course, indirect units laugh at this SCOP.
[19:36] DTaeKim: But it's one heck of a SCOP.
[19:36] DTaeKim: It's like Counter Break, but better.
[19:37] DTaeKim: You could gang up on his units, but it leaves the rest of his army ready to pummel you.
[19:37] DTaeKim: It resembes Samurai Spirit, actually.
[19:38] Zeon Zaku: I agree. It is a very convoluted version of a counterattack SCOP.
[19:38] DTaeKim: I don't know if it was his original intent, but it's definitely underpriced.
[19:38] DTaeKim: Pseudo Samurai Spirit.
[19:40] Zeon Zaku: This thing at the very minimum is seven stars and I find myself leaning more towards eight stars. Thus, the SCOP needs to be toned down or the price needs to be raised.
[19:41] DTaeKim: Okay, I gotta go.
[19:41] DTaeKim: But I think that Dawson could use a revamp as well.
[19:42] Zeon Zaku: I agree. I have to get going as well but we both reached a conclusion on Cena and Dawson.
[19:42] *** Auto-response sent to Zeon Zaku: I am currently away from the computer.
[19:49] *** "Zeon Zaku" signed off at Wed Sep 13 19:49:29 2006.
[20:41] *** You have been disconnected. Wed Sep 13 20:41:52 2006.
Session Close (Zeon Zaku): Wed Sep 13 21:00:59 2006


Session Start (lookingglass1103@hotmail.com:Zeon Zaku): Sat Sep 16 19:55:36 2006
[19:55] Zeon Zaku: Hiya.
[19:58] DTaeKim: Sorry for the delay.
[19:58] DTaeKim: Hi.
[19:58] Zeon Zaku: No prob. Anyway, did you ever get a hold of Nobody?
[19:58] DTaeKim: I haven't seen him in days, so no.
[19:59] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, same here <_<;
[19:59] Zeon Zaku: Do you want to look at more HoF CCOs in the meantime?
[20:01] DTaeKim: Sure.
[20:01] Zeon Zaku: All right.
[20:02] Zeon Zaku: Let me just finish posting a few things on WWN and then we can take a look;)
[20:03] DTaeKim: All right.
[20:03] DTaeKim: Gives me time to finish hacking Nobody.
[20:03] DTaeKim: >_>
[20:03] Zeon Zaku: Hehe
[20:10] Zeon Zaku: Ok, I finished making my rounds. There were not that many interesting topics today <_<;;
[20:11] Zeon Zaku: We left off at Dawson correct?
[20:11] DTaeKim: We finished Dawson.
[20:11] DTaeKim: So, that's Ember...right?
[20:11] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, looks like it.
[20:11] DTaeKim: By the way, I like the music.
[20:12] Zeon Zaku: Thanks. X0 did it.
[20:12] DTaeKim: You konw, I have no real arguments against Ember.
[20:12] DTaeKim: Aside from that absolutely delicious SCOP.
[20:13] Zeon Zaku: Hehe. Yeah. I am pretty sure that is balanced but it might be just a little bit too strong. Still, the luck spam of the COP has its place in her strategy.
[20:13] DTaeKim: Well, the SCOP could be a tad too powerful...what's Max's SCOP at?
[20:14] Zeon Zaku: A 70% boost to all Directs except Infantry. Yet his D2D brings that up to 90%.
[20:15] DTaeKim: Oh.
[20:15] DTaeKim: Hmmm...
[20:15] DTaeKim: I'll say it's fine for now.
[20:15] DTaeKim: Since Radioshadow asked me to hack Ember in my WWN hack.
[20:15] DTaeKim: We'll find out how it fares, though I am including the 10% offense bonus...
[20:15] DTaeKim: >_>
[20:16] Zeon Zaku: The idea behind the high boost was that it is situational even though the enemy takes 1HP of mass damage. Plus, she gets no defense boost and has 100/100 units day-to-day.
[20:16] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, I would remove the defense boost if you can in the hack.
[20:16] Zeon Zaku: Otherwise, lower the attack boost.
[20:17] DTaeKim: Easily done.
[20:17] DTaeKim: When I get around to her.
[20:17] DTaeKim: One CO per day.
[20:17] DTaeKim: >_>
[20:17] Zeon Zaku: Hehe, no rush.
[20:18] Zeon Zaku: Well I have no serious complaints against Ember as well. I realize that her SCOP is a little bit of a question mark but it is pretty close to being balanced if it already is not. When we get a hold of Nobody we can see if he has any real complaints against Ember.
[20:20] Zeon Zaku: Shall we move on to Ghost?
[20:20] DTaeKim: Yep.
[20:21] Zeon Zaku: Ah yes, the Starcraft reference.
[20:21] Zeon Zaku: And a Custom Army too.
[20:22] DTaeKim: Bio is all right.
[20:22] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[20:23] Zeon Zaku: Hmmm...
[20:23] Zeon Zaku: The D2D is pretty delicious as far as the current metagame is concerned.
[20:24] Zeon Zaku: Splash damage Indirects and 130/100 Foot Soldiers. <.<;
[20:24] DTaeKim: It's painful.
[20:24] DTaeKim: I don't know how to deal with the splash either.
[20:25] Zeon Zaku: Yeah... It is very effective against the shield walls and unit concentrations used in today's games.
[20:26] DTaeKim: He's like a pseudo-Grit.
[20:26] Zeon Zaku: Yeah. His artillery is more specialized though.
[20:28] Zeon Zaku: On paper I am inclined to say that he is balanced (perhaps even underpowered) because if his artillery has only one target then it hits at 60% damage. He is just very deadly in the current metagame.
[20:30] DTaeKim: 15% damage isn't much, come to think of it.
[20:31] DTaeKim: 60% offense in the center, and 15% offense to the sides.
[20:31] DTaeKim: At the most, he gets 1 damage.
[20:31] DTaeKim: If I'm reading it right.
[20:32] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, you are right. I think he is, overall, underpowered. His artillery is highly specialized and his Foot Soldiers are nasty but everything else is 90/100.
[20:34] DTaeKim: It's kind of comlicated.
[20:34] DTaeKim: How are the powers?
[20:34] Zeon Zaku: Ugh... Basically more balanced versions of Covering Fire with Indirect offense thrown in (assuming I am reading them correctly)
[20:35] DTaeKim: Indeed.
[20:35] DTaeKim: Kind of meh.
[20:36] Zeon Zaku: Pretty much.
[20:36] Zeon Zaku: I assume they auto-target.
[20:36] DTaeKim: They do.
[20:36] DTaeKim: One of the powers need to change.
[20:36] DTaeKim: >_>
[20:37] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, they are basically the same...
[20:37] Zeon Zaku: The D2D could probably change as well...
[20:37] DTaeKim: To ease up on complications?
[20:37] Zeon Zaku: Yes<_<
[20:38] Zeon Zaku: However, I personally think it might be too specialized. 60% against only one target is not very impressive. Yeah, it is pretty good against chokes but...
[20:40] DTaeKim: But you need like 2 hits to make it effective.
[20:40] Zeon Zaku: Basically, as you said, he is a pseudo Grit.
[20:40] DTaeKim: And then some.
[20:40] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[20:41] Zeon Zaku: What do you think about the D2D? As I said, I feel it is underpowered and too specialized.
[20:45] DTaeKim: Specialized, yes.
[20:45] DTaeKim: Underpowered, probably.
[20:50] DTaeKim: So in summary, we need a change ot the D2D, and one of the powers.
[20:50] Zeon Zaku: I agree.
[20:51] DTaeKim: Okay, that's done.
[20:51] DTaeKim: Who's next?
[20:51] Zeon Zaku: Gorman *head asplodes*
[20:52] Zeon Zaku: >.<
[20:54] DTaeKim: Could use a lot more in the biography.
[20:54] DTaeKim: Like the idea though.
[20:54] DTaeKim: >_>
[20:54] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[20:55] DTaeKim: My head hurts.
[20:55] Zeon Zaku: Could use an army though.
[20:55] DTaeKim: Problem is, Growshroom is nonexistant.
[20:55] Zeon Zaku: His skills/CO Powers cause heads to asplode>.<
[20:55] DTaeKim: He's gone as far as I know.
[20:55] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, he vanished during the move.
[20:56] DTaeKim: I like the idea, but the whole thing's complicated.
[20:56] DTaeKim: Fuel micromanagement = not fun.
[20:56] Zeon Zaku: I agree.
[20:57] Zeon Zaku: Yet with Growshroom gone we need to figure out what to do with Gorman.
[20:57] Zeon Zaku: Do we keep him despite some possible (perhaps serious) flaws?
[20:58] DTaeKim: I'm not sure, I'm going to have to go to HPD on that one.
[20:58] DTaeKim: There are flaws, undoubtedly.
[20:58] DTaeKim: He's like Kanbei/Hawke without a weakness.
[20:58] DTaeKim: All he needs are a few APCs, and he's Kanbei.
[20:58] DTaeKim: AWDS Kanbei, but Kanbei nonetheless.
[20:59] DTaeKim: And toss in those powers, and ouch.
[21:00] Zeon Zaku: Yeah. Gorman is something of a legend among CCOs but he is extremely nasty with his stats. He is either slow and hard as a rock or he is weak but can easily gain first strike.


[21:04] DTaeKim: Right.
[21:04] DTaeKim: He's an extremist.
[21:04] DTaeKim: It could work, actually.
[21:04] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, it could.
[21:04] DTaeKim: I'll say leave him for now.
[21:04] DTaeKim: And wait for Nobody's opinion.
[21:05] DTaeKim: My instinct is he's overpowered, but maybe his status as an extremist CO just tickles my fancy.
[21:05] DTaeKim: Since I'm always aiming for the middle group instead of highs/lows.
[21:05] DTaeKim: *ground, not group.
[21:05] Zeon Zaku: I understand and I agree with you.
[21:06] DTaeKim: Too bad I can't test him out.
[21:06] DTaeKim: <_<
[21:06] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[21:06] DTaeKim: That reduced movement, in theory, makes the Infantry swarm even more powerful, but it's SO slow.
[21:06] DTaeKim: When your INfantry move like Mechs, even 120/120 stats probably can't hurt.
[21:07] Zeon Zaku: Actually, Gorman's Foot Soldiers have normal movement and stats.
[21:07] DTaeKim: Oh.
[21:07] DTaeKim: Well, that helps the balance.
[21:07] DTaeKim: Since they aren't as extreme, and doesn't screw his capture phase.
[21:07] Zeon Zaku: Yeah. His Transports are normal too.
[21:08] DTaeKim: Well, that's good.
[21:08] Zeon Zaku: His Indirects are slow but nasty when full of fuel.
[21:08] DTaeKim: When Artillery move 4 spaces, it's kind of a problem.
[21:08] DTaeKim: <_<
[21:08] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[21:08] DTaeKim: They're almost as slow as Rockets.
[21:08] DTaeKim: Hard to get reinforcements.
[21:09] Zeon Zaku: Yeah. He might be closer to balance than I had originally thought.
[21:10] DTaeKim: Same here.
[21:10] DTaeKim: Maybe that's why he's a legend.
[21:10] DTaeKim: <_<
[21:10] DTaeKim: Too bad he's missing 2 victory quotes.
[21:10] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[21:11] Zeon Zaku: Wait, what?
[21:11] DTaeKim: Errr.power quotes.
[21:11] DTaeKim: <_<
[21:11] DTaeKim: Sorry.
[21:11] Zeon Zaku: No problem.
[21:13] DTaeKim: James is next, I suppose.
[21:13] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[21:13] DTaeKim: Son of Hawke.
[21:13] DTaeKim: ...
[21:13] DTaeKim: <_<
[21:13] DTaeKim: Hmmm, biography is lacking.
[21:14] DTaeKim: Could use a lot more.
[21:14] Zeon Zaku: I agree. I am also not a huge fan of CO relatives either but there is little that can be done about that.
[21:15] DTaeKim: Man, that biography is choppy.
[21:15] DTaeKim: Plenty of short sentences.
[21:16] Zeon Zaku: Well Frank is Dutch and this was a while ago so his English grammar and sentence structure tended to be simpler.
[21:16] DTaeKim: Ah.
[21:16] DTaeKim: Explains a lot.
[21:17] DTaeKim: Hmmm, the D2D...
[21:17] DTaeKim: Mixed, really.
[21:17] Zeon Zaku: 110/90 <_<
[21:17] DTaeKim: 110/90 is unoriginal, but I can't really penalize for that since it was a long time ago.
[21:17] Zeon Zaku: True.
[21:17] DTaeKim: 15% chance of halving counterattacks...
[21:17] DTaeKim: Random, I hate random.
[21:17] DTaeKim: Which is the same reason I hate luck COs.
[21:17] DTaeKim: <_<
[21:18] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, especially since I never get the high end of the luck spectrum.
[21:18] DTaeKim: Halving counterattacks is potent, though kind of pointless in some cases.
[21:18] DTaeKim: It turns 8-5 to 9-5 matchups.
[21:19] DTaeKim: A difference, but is it enough?
[21:19] Zeon Zaku: Well since it is his D2D then yes.
[21:19] DTaeKim: Since it's only 15%, I might say he's all right.
[21:20] Zeon Zaku: Plus, an Infantry could halve the damage it recieves from a Neotank.
[21:20] DTaeKim: That assumes the Infantry attacked in the first place.
[21:20] DTaeKim: <_<
[21:20] DTaeKim: Personally, I wouldn't sick an Infantry on a Neotank.
[21:20] DTaeKim: That's just asking for death.
[21:20] DTaeKim: <_<
[21:20] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, that is what I meant.
[21:21] DTaeKim: D2D is fine, maybe slightly underpowered.
[21:21] DTaeKim: He should have like a 20% chance instead.
[21:21] Zeon Zaku: I agree.
[21:21] DTaeKim: Hmm, COP...
[21:21] DTaeKim: +25 offense, no default defense, and 50% counterattack chance.
[21:22] DTaeKim: Odd number to pick, 25%.
[21:22] Zeon Zaku: Yeah. He does get the default defense though (His D2D is 110/90)
[21:23] DTaeKim: Oh, he does?
[21:23] DTaeKim: Forgot about that; was thinking of Ember.
[21:23] Zeon Zaku: Hehe
[21:23] DTaeKim: I would say it's fine, though it boils down to a offense bonus.
[21:23] DTaeKim: <_<
[21:24] DTaeKim: Really, the counterattack thing is minimal at best.
[21:24] DTaeKim: Unless it's like a Mech vs. Anti-Air or something.
[21:24] DTaeKim: Wait, forgot terrain efense.
[21:24] DTaeKim: <_<
[21:24] Zeon Zaku: Basically yes. 25% offense for three stars and an add on is pretty good for AW2.
[21:24] DTaeKim: Never mind.
[21:24] DTaeKim: It could be potent.
[21:24] DTaeKim: So I think it's fine.
[21:24] DTaeKim: 25% is still an odd number...
[21:24] DTaeKim: Oh well.
[21:24] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[21:25] DTaeKim: Holy crap.
[21:25] DTaeKim: -15 offense, -1 indirect range, +40 offense, and 75% chance of counterattacks.
[21:25] DTaeKim: That's a lot of stuff.
[21:25] Zeon Zaku: And all for seven stars :-O
[21:26] DTaeKim: Okay, 40 offense = 4 stars.
[21:26] DTaeKim: 75% counterattacks, probably 0.5 stars.
[21:27] Zeon Zaku: -15% offense is very similar to 15% defense boost.
[21:27] DTaeKim: So roughly 1.5 stars there.
[21:27] Zeon Zaku: 6 stars then.
[21:27] DTaeKim: -1 indirect range...
[21:27] DTaeKim: Indirect range, I don't think anyone' sever priced it.
[21:28] DTaeKim: Personally, I say roughly 1.5 stars.
[21:28] Zeon Zaku: But the -1 Indirect range is worth more than 1 star.
[21:28] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, 1.5 stars. Maybe 2 stars.
[21:28] DTaeKim: Well, it certainly helps him move in.
[21:28] Zeon Zaku: Although 1.5 sounds right.
[21:28] DTaeKim: 1.5 sounds more appropriate.
[21:28] DTaeKim: I think it's fiarly priced.
[21:29] DTaeKim: Just a lot of stuff initially.
[21:29] Zeon Zaku: Yeah. It might be slightly underpriced for what it does but that is not a huge deal.
[21:30] DTaeKim: Agreed.
[21:30] DTaeKim: So James is all right, just a revamp in the biography.
[21:30] DTaeKim: Minor issue, but it does need some work.
[21:30] Zeon Zaku: I agree.
[21:31] Zeon Zaku: I guess Jun is next but I need to log off soon so let us save him for another day. I probably will not be on tomorrow but I should be on the day after.
[21:32] DTaeKim: All right.
[21:32] DTaeKim: 4 HoF Cos checked is a lot.
[21:32] DTaeKim: Now where's Nobody...
[21:32] DTaeKim: <_<
[21:32] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, here we are working hard and I do not think he has even added me to his MSN group >.<
[21:33] DTaeKim: He's still not online.
[21:33] DTaeKim: I'm wondering where he is...
[21:34] Zeon Zaku: Yeah. I have not seen him on WWN either. I hope he comes back soon.
[21:34] DTaeKim: Same.
[21:34] DTaeKim: Cause he's active.
[21:34] DTaeKim: It would stink to have an inactive member of the RC>
[21:34] DTaeKim: Maybe his interent's down.
[21:34] DTaeKim: <_<
[21:35] Zeon Zaku: We can only hope that this is a temporary absence. (internet down, on vacation ect...)
[21:35] DTaeKim: Same.
[21:38] Zeon Zaku: All right, I need to get going now. Thanks for your help with the rates and I will catch you again soon.
[21:38] DTaeKim: Later.
Session Close (Zeon Zaku): Sat Sep 16 21:38:27 2006


Session Start (lookingglass1103@hotmail.com:Zeon Zaku): Sat Sep 16 21:38:31 2006
[21:38] Zeon Zaku: See ya \^-^
Session Close (Zeon Zaku): Sat Sep 16 21:38:34 2006


Session Start (lookingglass1103@hotmail.com:Zeon Zaku): Tue Sep 19 17:36:01 2006
[17:36] Zeon Zaku: Hiya
[17:36] DTaeKim: Hey.
[17:36] DTaeKim: Hang on, I'll invite you to our multi-convo
[17:36] Zeon Zaku: k
[17:42] Zeon Zaku: Shouldn't the three raters have their own convo? Deoxy and Sven are not raters <_<
[17:42] DTaeKim: Good point.
[17:42] DTaeKim: <_<
[17:43] *** sju88@hotmail.com (Nobody) has joined the conversation.
Session Close (Zeon Zaku): Tue Sep 19 17:43:03 2006


Session Start (lookingglass1103@hotmail.com:Zeon Zaku): Fri Sep 29 19:58:42 2006
[19:58] Zeon Zaku: Hiya
[19:59] DTaeKim: Hi.
[19:59] DTaeKim: *Checks.
[19:59] DTaeKim: I'm late, aren't I?
[19:59] Zeon Zaku: No biggy. I will still be on for another hour or so.
[19:59] DTaeKim: Nobody isn't on though.
[19:59] DTaeKim: oh well.
[20:00] DTaeKim: Let's go through the rest of the COs.
[20:00] Zeon Zaku: All right.
[20:00] DTaeKim: CO Jun.
[20:00] DTaeKim: Linky's own CCO.
[20:00] DTaeKim: True to Linky's nature, it's complex as all hell.
[20:00] Zeon Zaku: Yep>.<
[20:01] DTaeKim: Profile is decent, but could use more length.
[20:01] DTaeKim: D2D...
[20:01] DTaeKim: I'm torn.
[20:01] DTaeKim: Statistically, it's messed up.
[20:02] Zeon Zaku: Very
[20:02] Zeon Zaku: And it is random.
[20:03] DTaeKim: I hate randomness.
[20:03] DTaeKim: Defensively, he's overpowered.
[20:03] DTaeKim: Offensively, he could be overpowered/balanced.
[20:03] Zeon Zaku: Yes.
[20:03] DTaeKim: Oh wait, never mind.
[20:03] DTaeKim: He's underpowered offensively.
[20:03] DTaeKim: 120/85?
[20:03] DTaeKim: I thought I read 130/85.
[20:03] Zeon Zaku: <.<
[20:04] DTaeKim: So he's 120/85 or 80/125.
[20:04] Zeon Zaku: Wait.
[20:04] Zeon Zaku: I think you have the values wrong.
[20:05] Zeon Zaku: 120/85 and 80/115 right?
[20:05] DTaeKim: Good lord.
[20:05] DTaeKim: I was looking at the COP.
[20:05] DTaeKim: <_<
[20:05] DTaeKim: Sorry.
[20:05] Zeon Zaku: lol
[20:05] DTaeKim: Okay...
[20:05] DTaeKim: Never mind.
[20:05] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, you had me worried for a second.
[20:05] DTaeKim: I think he seems balanced.
[20:06] Zeon Zaku: The D2D is more or less balanced.
[20:06] DTaeKim: If it weren't for that randomness.
[20:06] DTaeKim: Good lord, I will not like that randomness.
[20:06] Zeon Zaku: Although Grimm shows that the 120/85 stats is not so great.
[20:06] DTaeKim: 90% defense should be the minimum D2D.
[20:07] DTaeKim: Anyway...
[20:07] Zeon Zaku: Anyway...
[20:08] DTaeKim: The COP...
[20:08] DTaeKim: Kind of meh.
[20:08] DTaeKim: It helps stop the randomness, but the stat boosts are lackluster.
[20:08] DTaeKim: +20 defense or +10 offense.
[20:09] Zeon Zaku: Yeah but it is two stars so the boosts can not be all that high anyway.
[20:09] DTaeKim: It just seems strange.
[20:09] DTaeKim: +20 defense, including default boost.
[20:09] DTaeKim: Oh, wait.
[20:09] DTaeKim: Just +10 defense.
[20:09] DTaeKim: Odd.
[20:09] DTaeKim: I suppose it's fair, but it's underwhelming.
[20:10] Zeon Zaku: (If it's defense, the normal +10 defense is included in the boost. If it's attack THERE IS NO 10% DEFENSE BOOST. I decided to do it like this because that is Jun's ability, high or low defense. The extra defense would make it a bit unfair for attack boosts.)

[20:10] DTaeKim: So is it 80/125 or 80/135?
[20:10] Zeon Zaku: I think 80/135 <_<;
[20:11] Zeon Zaku: Yet if that is the case then the negative polarization is better than the positive,
[20:11] DTaeKim: Indeed.
[20:11] DTaeKim: Which is why I believe it should be +20 offense.
[20:11] Zeon Zaku: And if it is not the case then the COP is underpowered.
[20:11] DTaeKim: To keep the same thematically.
[20:11] DTaeKim: So we need clarifcation, basically.
[20:12] Zeon Zaku: I agree that if the negative is 80/135 then the positive should be higher.
[20:12] Zeon Zaku: Either way, I say the COP needs to be beefed up.
[20:12] Zeon Zaku: Especially since it only helps to counter the randomness.
[20:12] DTaeKim: Agreed.
[20:12] DTaeKim: Randomness is a weakness.
[20:13] Zeon Zaku: Yeah. Jun might still have to wait to use his COP if he want to augment his current polarization.
[20:13] Zeon Zaku: wants*
[20:14] DTaeKim: RIght.
[20:14] DTaeKim: So underpowered COP.
[20:14] DTaeKim: Probably needs a slight fix.
[20:14] DTaeKim: He also needs two more power quotes...
[20:14] DTaeKim: Anyway, now the SCOP.
[20:14] Zeon Zaku: All of Jun's units shift Polarization, and get either +10 defense (Negative polarization) or +10 attack (Positive Polarization).

[20:15] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, the COP needs the boost and I think that Linky means for the defense to be 80/125. Anyway, now for the SCOP.
[20:16] DTaeKim: Same effect as COP, with greater boosts and -1 movement to enemy units.
[20:16] DTaeKim: I suppose it works.
[20:17] Zeon Zaku: Yeah although -1 movement to most enemy units is worth about 2 stars in my book.
[20:17] Zeon Zaku: Considering the 6 star price I say the SCOP is slightly underpowered.
[20:18] DTaeKim: Let's see...
[20:18] DTaeKim: We have +25 defense or +30 offense.
[20:18] DTaeKim: Plus polarity.
[20:20] Zeon Zaku: Plus the -1movement brings it to about 5 or 5.5 stars in my mind. He could probably get away with +30 defense or +40 offense methinks.
[20:20] DTaeKim: With 6 stars?
[20:20] DTaeKim: You're probably right.
[20:20] DTaeKim: He needs his powers to control himself.
[20:21] DTaeKim: That's kind of...underpowered IMO.
[20:21] Zeon Zaku: Yes, I agree <_<
[20:21] Zeon Zaku: It a;sp means his COP will be more useful.
[20:21] Zeon Zaku: also*
[20:21] DTaeKim: Agreed.
[20:22] DTaeKim: So slight changes in the COP and SCOP.
[20:22] Zeon Zaku: Yeah. Nothing too major. I do not particulalry like the randomness but heh...
[20:22] DTaeKim: Okay.
[20:22] Zeon Zaku: Longer bio too...
[20:22] DTaeKim: By the way, is any one of using keeping track of our comments?
[20:23] DTaeKim: I thought I did in autosaving the conversations, but it doesn't look like it...
[20:23] Zeon Zaku: >.<
[20:23] Zeon Zaku: I assumed you were but I can try to save them as well.
[20:23] DTaeKim: Let me check.
[20:24] DTaeKim: Damn, it doesn't look like those conversations were saved.
[20:25] DTaeKim: I do remember what we said though, for the most part.
[20:25] DTaeKim: *Kicks MSN.
[20:26] Zeon Zaku: Ok. Well let us quickly glance at the HoF CCOs we already looked at for a quick refresh so we know what our comments are. I will then save them in a Word document on my lappy.
[20:26] DTaeKim: Okay
[20:26] Zeon Zaku: Cena
[20:26] DTaeKim: Needs bland D2D.
[20:27] DTaeKim: And change in SCOP.
[20:27] Zeon Zaku: Cena
-Needs to be in an army.
-Needs bland D2D.
-Needs new SCOP.

[20:27] Zeon Zaku: Actually, wasn't it a bigger rework than that? He was the annoying, COP spamming rapper CCO.
[20:28] Zeon Zaku: Wait, I see what you mean by bland.
[20:28] DTaeKim: Starts with 100/100s tats.
[20:28] DTaeKim: Keep the D2D, but he needs 100/100 stats.
[20:28] DTaeKim: IMO.
[20:28] Zeon Zaku: Cena
-Needs to be in an army.
-Needs 100/100 D2D starting value.
-Needs new SCOP.

[20:28] DTaeKim: Yes.
[20:28] DTaeKim: And longer biography.
[20:29] Zeon Zaku: Ok. Now for Dawson.
[20:30] Zeon Zaku: Right, he was the sucky metagame one that had more or less balanced powers right?
[20:30] DTaeKim: Basically.
[20:30] DTaeKim: COP was kind of useless.
[20:30] DTaeKim: SCOP was almost Samurai Spirit.
[20:31] Zeon Zaku: Yeah. Didn't we decide the SCOP was slightly overpriced?
[20:31] DTaeKim: Underpriced, I thought.
[20:31] DTaeKim: I calculated the direct defense to be 157%.
[20:31] Zeon Zaku: Right.
[20:32] Zeon Zaku:
Dawson
-Need more Custom Army info.
-Needs new COP.
-SCOP is underpriced.

[20:32] DTaeKim: Yep.
[20:32] DTaeKim: Add simplified D2D to that list.
[20:33] Zeon Zaku: Ok
[20:33] Zeon Zaku: We decided that Ember was basically fine right?
[20:33] DTaeKim: Yeah.
[20:33] DTaeKim: No real problems.
[20:33] DTaeKim: More testing is needed with the D2D, but hey, whatever works.
[20:34] Zeon Zaku: Well her D2D is bland in the HoF (it is her AW2 version)
[20:34] DTaeKim: True.
[20:34] DTaeKim: Oh, wait, I meant COP.
[20:34] DTaeKim: My bad.
[20:34] Zeon Zaku: Ok.
[20:34] Zeon Zaku: Now, Ghost was underpowered on pretty much all accounts.
[20:35] Zeon Zaku: Ghost
-D2D is underpowered.
-COP/SCOP are too similar.

[20:36] DTaeKim: Yeah.
[20:36] DTaeKim: Again, biography.
[20:36] DTaeKim: Add +2 power quotes to all of the COs except for Ember.
[20:36] DTaeKim: Forgot about that little part.
[20:36] Zeon Zaku: Right.
[20:37] Zeon Zaku: Ghost
-D2D is underpowered.
-COP and SCOP are too similar.
-Needs 2 more power quotes.

[20:37] DTaeKim: Agreed.
[20:37] Zeon Zaku: We decided that Gorman, while extreme, is probably fine.
[20:38] DTaeKim: Yep.
[20:38] DTaeKim: Needs more in the biography, but Growshroom is gone, so...
[20:38] Zeon Zaku: Can't do much about that then <_<;;;
[20:39] Zeon Zaku: I'm drawing a blank on James for some reason...
[20:39] Zeon Zaku: Frank's English was lacking then but I think we decided that the D2D was fine.
[20:39] DTaeKim: D2D was fine.
[20:40] DTaeKim: COP and SCOP were fine, if a tad unoriginal.
[20:40] Zeon Zaku: Yeah. So just the 2 more power quotes eh?
[20:40] DTaeKim: Yep.
[20:40] DTaeKim: It wouldn't hurt to have a rewritten biography.
[20:41] Zeon Zaku: James
-Needs 2 more power quotes.
-Rewritten bio.

[20:41] DTaeKim: Yep.
[20:41] Zeon Zaku: Jun
-Slight changes to the COP and SCOP (both underpowered)
-Longer bio.
-Needs 2 more power quotes.

[20:43] DTaeKim: Great scott.
[20:43] DTaeKim: Newbie is underpowered D2D.
[20:44] DTaeKim: +20 offense vs. units that can't counterattack
[20:44] Zeon Zaku: :-O
[20:44] DTaeKim: +15 defense with own units that can't counterattack.
[20:45] DTaeKim: 90/90 when involved in a battle with counterattacks.
[20:45] Zeon Zaku: That 90/90 will happen far more often than the other two.
[20:46] DTaeKim: The only units that can't counterattack are indirects, transports, and land units vs. air units.
[20:46] DTaeKim: So his air units gets +20 offense vs. ground units (Bombers mostly).
[20:46] DTaeKim: All units get +20 offense vs. indirect and transport units.
[20:47] Zeon Zaku: Well he is good at sinking Landers at sea with Subs but the vast majority of the time the 90/90 occurs.
[20:47] DTaeKim: Yep.
[20:47] Zeon Zaku: Unless if he gets the 20% attack boost if the addition of the boost will allow him to OHKO the target.
[20:47] DTaeKim: Only vs. Transports.
[20:48] DTaeKim: And probably some Bombers vs. ground unit matchup.
[20:48] Zeon Zaku: Yeah but I mean a Tank vs Tank scenario where the enemy Tank is weakened and having the additional 20% will allow him to OHKO the enemy Tank. (Yet that seems rather complicated.)
[20:49] DTaeKim: It does.
[20:49] DTaeKim: I'm not sure if it was intended to be that way.
[20:49] Zeon Zaku: Ok, so the D2D is underpowered.
[20:49] DTaeKim: *Agrees.
[20:49] DTaeKim: Biography could use a lot more.
[20:49] DTaeKim: It seems to rely on inside information.
[20:49] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[20:50] Zeon Zaku: Interesting COP.
[20:50] DTaeKim: No counterattacks from secondary weapons, +10 offense, +10 defense.
[20:50] DTaeKim: It's kind of underpowered, IMO.
[20:51] Zeon Zaku: Basically. That can help him to utilize his D2D more but it does seem underpowered.
[20:51] DTaeKim: Well, secondary weapons...
[20:51] DTaeKim: That's mostly...soldier units.
[20:51] DTaeKim: And air units vs. cruisers.
[20:51] Zeon Zaku: Yeah although Copters can now attack Tanks and get the 20% boost,
[20:51] DTaeKim: Yeah.
[20:52] DTaeKim: Kind of limited.
[20:52] DTaeKim: Maybe a tad more, IMO.
[20:52] DTaeKim: Dunno what can be done though.
[20:52] Zeon Zaku: I agree. The basic idea behind this CCO seems flawed IMO.
[20:53] DTaeKim: Nice idea though.
[20:53] DTaeKim: SCOP is where it's at.
[20:53] DTaeKim: Very useful.
[20:53] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[20:53] DTaeKim: And double-edged.
[20:53] DTaeKim: No counterattacks on both sides could him just as bad.
[20:53] Zeon Zaku: Except he will be getting his D2D defense boost.
[20:54] Zeon Zaku: Well as of now he is basically a SCOP spammer.
[20:54] DTaeKim: Then what's the ponit of using the COP?
[20:54] DTaeKim: This SCOP dominates.
[20:54] DTaeKim: Okay, so he needs more biography, +2 power quotes, and revamp of COP.
[20:54] DTaeKim: Since SCOP overshadows it completely.
[20:54] DTaeKim: Is it balanced?
[20:54] Zeon Zaku: I still think the D2D is underpowered. As for the SCOP...
[20:56] DTaeKim: D2D is still underpowered.
[20:56] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, it is probably balanced. (maybe even overpriced since Sophie basically negates the enemy's counterattacks at 3 stars)
[20:56] DTaeKim: Probably is balanced.
[20:56] Zeon Zaku: I agree.
[20:56] DTaeKim: He gets 130/130 stats basically along with no counterattacks.
[20:56] DTaeKim: Definitely could be worse.
[20:56] DTaeKim: I probably would say bump the defense to 130 and he's fine.
[20:56] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[20:57] Zeon Zaku: Newbie
-D2D is underpowered.
-Better Bio.
-Underpowered COP.
-Needs 2 more power quotes.

[20:59] DTaeKim: Agreed.
[20:59] DTaeKim: Now, Ray.
[20:59] DTaeKim: The clear-weather CO.
[20:59] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[20:59] Zeon Zaku: Bio looks good.
[21:00] DTaeKim: Agreed.
[21:00] DTaeKim: D2D...
[21:00] DTaeKim: I'm actually tempted to say it's balanced.
[21:00] Zeon Zaku: Yeah. The 100/90 Foot Soldier stats hurt his capture phase.
[21:01] DTaeKim: As well as his meatshielding potential.
[21:01] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[21:02] Zeon Zaku: COP is pretty blah.
[21:02] Zeon Zaku: Too Adderish and setting the weather to clear is not a big deal.
[21:02] Zeon Zaku: Well, not big in most situations.
[21:02] DTaeKim: Well, Adder has a 2-star power.
[21:03] Zeon Zaku: By Adderish I mean it is simply movement with a small firepower boost thrown on.
[21:03] DTaeKim: I'm not bothered too much by it.
[21:03] DTaeKim: Ah.
[21:03] DTaeKim: Well, I'm not bothered. I think it's fine, personally.
[21:03] Zeon Zaku: Ok. What about its balance?
[21:04] DTaeKim: Well, I was experimenting with adding a default offense bonus.
[21:04] DTaeKim: To tell you the truth, there is no reason the powers shouldn't have +10 offense along with that +10 defense.
[21:04] DTaeKim: That's just me though.
[21:04] Zeon Zaku: I agree.
[21:04] DTaeKim: With that in mind, I think the COp is fine.
[21:04] Zeon Zaku: Ok.
[21:05] Zeon Zaku: So far so good.
[21:05] Zeon Zaku: He even has the right number of CO Power quotes.
[21:05] DTaeKim: Okay, SCOP is lackluster.
[21:06] DTaeKim: Same effects as COP, then add in -10 offense/defense for the enemy and - 1movement.
[21:06] Zeon Zaku: Yeah. He can also double COP so I see him using that more often.
[21:06] DTaeKim: So COP overshadows SCOP.
[21:07] DTaeKim: Probably a change in the SCOP is in order.
[21:07] Zeon Zaku: Yeah. The SCOP needs a boost to make it worth 7 stars.
[21:07] Zeon Zaku: So really our only complaint is with the SCOP.
[21:07] Zeon Zaku: Ray
-New SCOP.

[21:10] Zeon Zaku: Hello?
[21:11] DTaeKim: Agreed.
[21:11] DTaeKim: Sorry.
[21:11] Zeon Zaku: Rick then...
[21:12] DTaeKim: 90/110 D2D, APCs cannot resupply, but other transport units can.
[21:12] DTaeKim: Personally, I don't like that aspect.
[21:12] Zeon Zaku: I agree and I assume Xen did it to help counter the fact that the 90/110 stats is slightly overpowered.
[21:13] DTaeKim: Slightly.
[21:13] Zeon Zaku: Yes
[21:13] Zeon Zaku: Still... That aspect could afford to go IMO.
[21:14] DTaeKim: Yeah.
[21:14] DTaeKim: It complicates things.
[21:14] DTaeKim: And makes him at a slight disadvantage.
[21:14] Zeon Zaku: Yeah. The bio looks fine though.
[21:15] Zeon Zaku: The COP screams unit spam and yet, at the same time, it is not as efficient as mass damage.
[21:15] DTaeKim: It kind of falls between 3 and 4 stars though.
[21:16] Zeon Zaku: Yeah. It is probably fine then.
[21:17] Zeon Zaku: The SCOP is simply an augmented COP <.<;
[21:17] DTaeKim: That could be a problem.
[21:17] DTaeKim: Except that 8-star cost kind of hurts.
[21:17] DTaeKim: I think one of the two should be changed.
[21:18] DTaeKim: Well, the SCOP slightly.
[21:18] DTaeKim: The price ot he SCOP makes the COP desirable by default.
[21:18] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[21:18] Zeon Zaku: I say the SCOP needs to be changed.
[21:19] DTaeKim: How much changes?
[21:19] DTaeKim: I don't think it needs much.
[21:19] Zeon Zaku: What did you have in mind?
[21:20] Zeon Zaku: I simply frown upon the fact that it is just double of the COP.
[21:21] Zeon Zaku: That is why I say he needs a new one entirely but are you saying it just needs to be beefed up with an extra ability or something?
[21:22] DTaeKim: I think it needs to be beefed up slightly.
[21:22] DTaeKim: The problem with an 8, 9, or 10-star SCOP is the fact the COP is desirable by default.
[21:22] DTaeKim: However, a DCOP is not as effective as the SCOP in this case.
[21:22] DTaeKim: Each have their own merits.
[21:23] DTaeKim: Due to the similariy between the two powers though, I think the SCOP just needs something more.
[21:23] Zeon Zaku: Ok, so the SCOP needs an additional ability to make it both worth the 8 star cost and to help distinguish it from the COP.
[21:24] DTaeKim: Something minor.
[21:24] DTaeKim: Like a resupply.
[21:24] Zeon Zaku:
Rick
-Get rid of no APC supply and the T-Copter/Lander Supply.
-One more CO Power Quote.
-SCOP needs a small extra ability.

[21:24] DTaeKim: Agreed.
[21:25] Zeon Zaku: Ugh, Rob. I gave him a real rate some time ago.
[21:25] Zeon Zaku: I remember conlcuding that the bio was a tad corny in places and that he was underpowered overall (and very bitty)
[21:26] DTaeKim: Corny indeed.
[21:26] DTaeKim: It's kind of...copmlciated.
[21:26] DTaeKim: And annoying.
[21:26] DTaeKim: Do I really want to keep track of all of those little bits?
[21:26] Zeon Zaku: No...
[21:27] Zeon Zaku: Hmmm...
[21:28] Zeon Zaku: What do you think of the D2D?
[21:29] DTaeKim: I looked at the little bits, and I got annoyed.
[21:30] Zeon Zaku: Yeah
[21:30] Zeon Zaku: Do you want to label him too complicated and move on to Tempest?
[21:31] Zeon Zaku: I wished I could find my old rate of Rob...
[21:31] DTaeKim: Isn;t it still on the boards?
[21:31] Zeon Zaku: I do not think so since it was a secret rate between me and FGM back when I first became a rater.
[21:32] Zeon Zaku: I'll check though.
[21:32] DTaeKim: Ah.
[21:32] DTaeKim: Well, after a closer look, it isn't as complicated as I thought.
[21:32] DTaeKim: It's still an annoying thing though.
[21:33] Zeon Zaku: Ok, I found my rate but I now remember that FGM made corrections as I suggested them so the rate is about the finished product.
[21:33] DTaeKim: First, the money ability only hurts the enemy IF there's money in the coffers to begin with.
[21:33] DTaeKim: Ah.
[21:33] DTaeKim: Well...
[21:33] DTaeKim: From the HoF version...
[21:34] DTaeKim: As i said earlier, the money ability only hurts if there's money in the bank.
[21:34] DTaeKim: If you spend most of your money, this shouldn't be a problem.
[21:34] DTaeKim: The fuel stealing is minimal.
[21:34] DTaeKim: It's practically negligible.
[21:34] DTaeKim: The main focus should be the ammunition decrease, except...
[21:34] DTaeKim: After two hits, you're dead anyway.
[21:34] DTaeKim: When you're dead, -4 ammo doesn' tmatter.
[21:34] DTaeKim: SO the supply decrease, in general, is an annoyance at best.
[21:34] Zeon Zaku: The ammo stealing can be worth something in some situations. However, the money he gains could be very noticeable.
[21:35] *** You have been disconnected. Fri Sep 29 21:35:00 2006.
[21:38] *** You are currently disconnected. Messages will not be received unless you are logged in.
[21:38] *** You are currently disconnected. Messages will not be received unless you are logged in.
Session Close (Zeon Zaku): Fri Sep 29 21:48:58 2006
Last edited by DTaeKim on Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What can change the nature of a man?

User avatar
DTaeKim
Star CO
Star CO
Rank: War Room Legend
Location: In your base, killing your d00ds

Post by DTaeKim » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:02 pm

EDIT: This one here is the debate on the HoF CCOs with the three of us. I can't find the other conversations for now, but they will be posted as soon as I can find them.

Session Start (lookingglass1103@hotmail.com:Group Conversation 10599): Tue Sep 19 17:43:02 2006
[17:43] Zeon Zaku: Let me invite Nobody:P
[17:43] Zeon Zaku: Ok, you got him.
[17:43] DTaeKim: [17:42] DTaeKim: Cena
[17:42] DTaeKim: Biography needs work, we need 2 more power quotes.
[17:42] DTaeKim: D2D is underpowered, idea promotes COP spam, needs revamp on SCOP.
[17:43] Zeon Zaku: Correct.
[17:43] Zeon Zaku: Nobody, are you there?
[17:43] Nobody: yeah
[17:43] Nobody: rater's convo?
[17:44] DTaeKim: Yep.
[17:44] Zeon Zaku: Yes.
[17:44] Zeon Zaku: DTK and I have been discussing several HoF CCOs.
[17:45] Zeon Zaku: We want and need your input on them before we (the Rater's Circle) finalizes our decisions.
[17:45] Nobody: Yeah, I looked at some of them yesterday.
[17:45] Nobody: Cena seems like he needs some major tweaks and changes right now.
[17:46] DTaeKim: So he's out o fthe HoF.
[17:48] Zeon Zaku: Yes. (Unless if we want to give the creator a chance to make changes although, in Cena's case, the changes are pretty big <_<)
[17:48] DTaeKim: Indeed.
[17:49] Nobody: I think he's out for now.
[17:49] Zeon Zaku: I agree.
[17:49] DTaeKim: So...
[17:49] DTaeKim: Next is Dawson.
[17:50] DTaeKim: Out pending changes to biography, D2D, and SCOP.
[17:50] DTaeKim: Well, regarding Cena.
[17:50] DTaeKim: Dawson is a tad complicated.
[17:50] DTaeKim: <_<
[17:50] Zeon Zaku: Yes <_<
[17:52] DTaeKim: Needs a simpler D2D, overpowered SCOP, underpowered COP.
[17:52] Zeon Zaku: Yes.
[17:52] DTaeKim: Again, 2 power quotes.
[17:52] DTaeKim: Maybe a bit more on the D2D, specially the history of his custom army.
[17:53] Zeon Zaku: I agree. What do you think Nobody?
[17:53] Nobody: I agree with that too.
[17:54] DTaeKim: Out of the HoF for now?
[17:55] Zeon Zaku: Yes. The changes are pretty big on that one as well <_<;
[17:55] DTaeKim: Yep.
[17:56] DTaeKim: Next is Ember.
[17:57] DTaeKim: Nobody played as Ember in CW.
[17:57] Zeon Zaku: Really?
[17:57] DTaeKim: If I remember correctly, yes.
[17:57] Nobody: I think Ember can stay in the HoF.
[17:57] DTaeKim: So do I.
[17:57] Zeon Zaku: Same here.
[17:57] DTaeKim: Is the COP really underpowered, Nobody?
[17:57] Nobody: I would need to test it more.
[17:58] Nobody: My original assessment is yes.
[17:59] DTaeKim: +20 luck may serve better, if there was no offense bonus.
[17:59] Zeon Zaku: So no default offense boost but keep a high "more HP" boost and increase the luck?
[18:00] DTaeKim: Well, the offense bonus is situational.
[18:00] Nobody: Hmm, knowing my luck, the COP may not be so bad. <_<;
[18:00] DTaeKim: Like Nobody said, it might bear more testing.
[18:00] DTaeKim: For now, we'll say unchanged.
[18:00] DTaeKim: The SCOP is fine though, it seems.
[18:00] Nobody: yeah
[18:01] Zeon Zaku: Ok. So at worse a slight COP change.
[18:01] Nobody: yeah
[18:01] Nobody: She's pretty close to perfect.
[18:02] Zeon Zaku: Thanks ^-^
[18:03] DTaeKim: Next is...
[18:03] Nobody: Ghost
[18:03] Zeon Zaku: Right, the psuedo Gritish one.
[18:04] Nobody: Hmm, the odd thing is that it appears that his indirects are the weakness. >_>
[18:04] DTaeKim: That's right.
[18:04] DTaeKim: He's weird.
[18:04] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, that is the odd thing.
[18:04] Nobody: He has uber soldiers and weak indirects.
[18:04] Zeon Zaku: And weak everything else.
[18:04] Nobody: His powers enhance his "weak" part.
[18:05] DTaeKim: He's kind of underpowered D2D.
[18:06] Zeon Zaku: He is rather underpowered D2D. He has good soldiers but his Directs are too specialized and all his other units have 90/100 stats.
[18:06] Zeon Zaku: Indirects*
[18:06] Zeon Zaku: <.<
[18:07] Nobody: What are balance hack Sami's stats?
[18:07] DTaeKim: 130/100 D2D
[18:07] DTaeKim: 90/100 directs
[18:07] DTaeKim: 1.5x capture rate.
[18:07] DTaeKim: Soldiers are 130/100
[18:07] Nobody: so he's a nerfed Sami D2D >_>
[18:07] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, basically.
[18:08] Zeon Zaku: He is ok for the current AW Metagame but having Indirects that do 60% damage to a lone target is pretty weak.
[18:08] Nobody: Sami without effective indirects is not good.
[18:09] Nobody: The odd thing is that the powers still encourage indirect unit usage.
[18:09] DTaeKim: Even with splash.
[18:09] DTaeKim: He needs two indirects to do the job of one.
[18:10] Zeon Zaku: Yeah and that is not good.
[18:10] Nobody: two artillery can't kill a tank with Ghost <_<;
[18:10] Nobody: 42-51% each attack
[18:13] Zeon Zaku: Yeah.
[18:13] Nobody: The COP...is that a missile area or is it smaller?
[18:14] Zeon Zaku: We assume it is a single automatic missile with the same radius.
[18:15] Nobody: targets like Sturm's meteor?
[18:15] Zeon Zaku: DTK and I dislike the fact that the SCOP is basically an augmented version of the COP.
[18:15] DTaeKim: That as well.
[18:15] DTaeKim: It's a misile area.
[18:15] DTaeKim: Like sturm's meteor.
[18:15] DTaeKim: <_<
[18:15] Zeon Zaku: <.<
[18:16] Nobody: indeed
[18:16] Nobody: The SCOP is a larger COP.
[18:17] Zeon Zaku: Yeah and that is rather drab even for these older CCOs.
[18:18] DTaeKim: Agreed.
[18:18] DTaeKim: So he's out as well.
[18:18] DTaeKim: Probably needs a COP/SCOP revapm, a D2D change.
[18:19] Zeon Zaku: Which basically translates to an almost complete overhaul <_<;
[18:19] Nobody: yeah <_<
[18:20] DTaeKim: Yep.
[18:20] DTaeKim: So he's out.
[18:20] Zeon Zaku: Yeah
[18:23] Zeon Zaku: I suppose Gorman was the next one on our list DTK.
[18:24] DTaeKim: Yeah.
[18:24] DTaeKim: We thought he was fine, if extreme.
[18:24] Nobody: supply-based CCO <_<;;
[18:26] Zeon Zaku: I know. At first we were convinced that he was broken or useless but, upon closer inspection, he seemed fairly well balanced if a little too extreme for our tastes.
[18:29] Zeon Zaku: Hello? <.<;;;
[18:29] DTaeKim: Sorry.
[18:29] Nobody: sorry
[18:29] DTaeKim: But yeah, what Tronn said.
[18:29] DTaeKim: He is extreme, but he works.
[18:29] DTaeKim: 120/120 stats is scary, then you see he loses 1 movement.
[18:29] DTaeKim: I wonder why reduced movement is in the golden rules when a HoF CO has it.
[18:29] DTaeKim: <_<
[18:30] Zeon Zaku: >_>
[18:31] Zeon Zaku: So, what do you think Nobody?
[18:32] DTaeKim: He can stay IMO.
[18:32] Nobody: I'll have to take a long look at him.
[18:32] Zeon Zaku: Yeah, I am ok with it as well (Especially since Growshroom is gone)
[18:35] Zeon Zaku: The next CCO we did was James right?
[18:35] Nobody: I think Gorman is fine enough.
[18:35] DTaeKim: James.
[18:36] Zeon Zaku: Yeah. Ignore the sub-par grammar and sentence structure since Frank is dutch and he did this CCO a long time ago when he was still getting use to English.
[18:38] Nobody: even with the extra luck ability thrown in, 110/90 still is underpowered IMO
[18:38] Zeon Zaku: Remember that this is the AW2 balance system.
[18:39] Nobody: Well, bland was never balanced though.
[18:39] Zeon Zaku: True.
[18:39] Nobody: Andy's D2D was always the weakest...besides AW2 Flak. <_<
[18:40] Nobody: Well, his COP is fine enough.
[18:40] DTaeKim: It's fine, but it's kind of dull.
[18:40] Nobody: yeah
[18:40] Zeon Zaku: Yeah
[18:40] DTaeKim: One of the powers need to be changed, and I do'nt like that random chance.
[18:40] DTaeKim: Okay, dinner calls.
[18:40] DTaeKim: I'm going to be gone for a bit, so...
[18:40] DTaeKim: Well, James was the last CO we covered, so...
[18:41] DTaeKim: Adios all.
Session Close (Group Conversation): Tue Sep 19 18:41:15 2006
Last edited by DTaeKim on Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What can change the nature of a man?

User avatar
Newbie
Location: SOS Brigade

Post by Newbie » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:05 pm


[20:43] DTaeKim: Great scott.
[20:43] DTaeKim: Newbie is underpowered D2D.


Is it unusual for me to glean a small amount of amusement at this statement?

[20:52] Zeon Zaku: I agree. The basic idea behind this CCO seems flawed IMO.

>_>;
Image
Credit to Sasquatch.
"Well, out loud, I said, "What the ****!?"
However, when I translated it on the internet, it came out, "Oh, it's a game." Lost in translation, you know?" ~ Shadowdude

User avatar
Oracle of Wuffing
Location: Wuffily wuffing somewhere.

Post by Oracle of Wuffing » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:37 pm

Sven wrote:The thing is, 100/100 optimal moves beat 90/100 optimal moves. That's a fact. He'll always lose more then he gains, so he'll never get it going.
So, even if I get the first strike, my 90% offense isn't going to help me in any way, shape, or form, because I will be overpowered by a 100% counterattack from a lower-HP unit? Counterattacks are that strong now?
Sven wrote:90/100 makes a huge difference - I don't know where you gathered otherwise.
Mostly I've gathered it because the people saying 90/100 matters a whole bunch. And that's it. I don't think you lose a lot of early-game OHKOs with 90/100 units... Maybe, like, Anti-Air versus Infantry, and I personally consider Anti-Air pretty pretty expensive (albeit useful) for early-gameness.
Sven wrote:Anything Cena can do, other COs can do better. You're never going to get to 120/100 because you can never get Cena setup. Because other COs can do exactly what he does but with superior stats.
But-

Actually, drat, lots of what I was about to say on the topic got covered in the chatlog post-avalanche DTaeKim made. lol transition to DTaeKim's posts.

Thanks a whole lots for completely ignoring the paragraph that begins with a bolded sentence. That bolded sentence didn't mean it was an important paragraph at all. No. It just meant it owned a really crummy car. That was powered by demons. Underwater.

Regretably, I can't read much more of this, and I don't think I can come up with better things to say until after I read it. I will be forensics-travelling this weekend, and must type a report for class on Monday. I will, however, continue to stand by most of my points... That these CCOs are being reccommended for deletion for reasons I can only conclude are finicky and subjective... Even with the log, there isn't much explaining why bios need to be longer or more detailed, or why the COs are crossing that S-Rank threshold. Heck, I'm just glancing over this, so maybe I'm wrong, but it appears to me that you conclude that Cena's D2D is just fine... And randomly switch over to saying it's underpowered for no real reason. And I still don't understand why you'd want to keep these discussions privite.

I will also add that I question how this new system is supposed to be more effective... When the majority of it is built on the opinions of only two people.
Image
CumulusCentral : It's dot-com!
"He's gonna win..." The Ever-Loving Linkman, talking about my Character Battle Predictions.

User avatar
DTaeKim
Star CO
Star CO
Rank: War Room Legend
Location: In your base, killing your d00ds

Post by DTaeKim » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:40 pm

It would be three if I can find the conversations that Nobody was involved in.

In fact, the last post should have him. In any case, it was the three of us because no one wanted the positions and no one was active enough. If we had more activity in the CCO Rating Center, it would be a different story.
What can change the nature of a man?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Multivac [Bot] and 0 guests