Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Discussion of hacking, editing and developments in Advance Wars games.
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Sven

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Sven » Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:06 pm

Blame Game wrote:honestly i'm more interested in nell than flak atm, if i end up testing one of the luck COs it'll be the one with the 2-star COP heh

right now i'm eyeing up grit though, i'm interested in what he does with the new artillery. working on copying a map for our second match btw sven, i'm lazy and tired though so it might be a couple days
is cool. no rush. do you want to play against any particular CO?

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Satel

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Satel » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:27 am

Nevermind the Flak thing, I'll be playing him if it's necessary xD
Joey wrote:i think i was mad at certain players and wanted to wave st3rn's success in their face at the most opportune moment, or something

st3rn fudge st3rn

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kiwi

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by kiwi » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:17 pm

SMITAN IS TOP TIER unless the map is roads and plains

Flak is awful bad

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Satel

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Satel » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:02 pm

Who the hell is smitan? And what makes you say what you say? Unless there's proper explanations, I can't take what you say seriously. Also, unless you dl'd the patch in the mast two or three days, Flak is 120/100 instead of 120/110.
Joey wrote:i think i was mad at certain players and wanted to wave st3rn's success in their face at the most opportune moment, or something

st3rn fudge st3rn

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Xenesis
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Hydrocarbon Inspector
3DS Code: 2535-4646-7163
Location: 0x020232DD

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Xenesis » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:15 pm

Smitan was a Custom Wars CO designed by Blame Game.

He was...interesting.
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

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DieselPheonix

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by DieselPheonix » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:56 pm

Grit gets discount rockets during Powers. They are also surprisingly sturdy on cities. If the map is not small or open, or otherwise not decided in a small amount of turns, the Grit player can win through indirect attrition. Being able to refresh indirects like everyone's favorite CCO is a nice bonus.

Some quick matches were conducted on the following maps.
http://awbw.amarriner.com/prevmaps.php?maps_id=27638
http://awbw.amarriner.com/prevmaps.php?maps_id=31419
http://awbw.amarriner.com/prevmaps.php?maps_id=29976
I expect we should be playing on different maps.

By the way, where is the updated patch?

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Blame Game

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Blame Game » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:05 pm

grit against who though

120/120 indirects and that cop both sound nice for sure. maybe not such a big deal against sami, hawke, hachi, adder if that -1 meter cost thing is working? maybe jess, sensei, max. seems sucky for grit if he ever has to deal with people straight ohking his infs, though maybe he remains AW2/Gage status where the blob doesn't care about infantry?

Lambda

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Lambda » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:02 pm

adder if that -1 meter cost thing is working?
Theorically it's materialised by one less star, so 2 stars instead of 3.

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Blame Game

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Blame Game » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:29 pm

yeah that's the case in aw2, not sure about this though?

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kiwi

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by kiwi » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:06 pm

GUYS can I play against you, DP is SUPER BORING to play against

also we need map suggestions that aren't awbw s rank because most don't fit in the map editor

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Blame Game

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Blame Game » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:26 pm

works for me, pm me an email address or something maybe?

i don't have maps or anything though. in general i'll be playing really really slow and so far only have one non-IS map to work with, until like a week from now when i have a break from work. so, can't promise much excitement

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Sven

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Sven » Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:01 am

i'm not above manually copying them in using the tools xen posted if anyone feels particularly strongly about maps

otherwise i might just jam x0_000 stuff, he was really good about keeping it cart usable.

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Xenesis
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Hydrocarbon Inspector
3DS Code: 2535-4646-7163
Location: 0x020232DD

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Xenesis » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:56 am

Just in response to what Sven asked me on the IRC:

No ROMS, but if you upload the map file (or the mar file), St3rn can include it. Otherwise you can include it as a patch.
You can even attach files to your post on this forum :)
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

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kiwi

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by kiwi » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:56 pm

WELL right now i have the save file itself which is probably not very efficient BUT some of us don't talk machine code
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Satel

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Satel » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:32 am

Well, since I am not comfortable with map-hacking, I'll let people do their stuff concerning this particular point.

The one thing that bothers me is the discount on rockets during Grit's SCOP... I am not sure about what DP means by that, but I can't modify the prices modifier for one unit only, so if it's not a permanent price decrease it's pretty problematic.

Either way, I'm reconsidering whether Grit gets better range or keeps his indirect defense.

Also, BG, the -1 star is just me writing the concept Adder is balanced around.
Joey wrote:i think i was mad at certain players and wanted to wave st3rn's success in their face at the most opportune moment, or something

st3rn fudge st3rn

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Blame Game

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Blame Game » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:52 pm

oh okay. i think he's too weak, then.

re: "discount rockets," i think they just mean that +1 range more or less turns artillery into rockets for a turn.

not sure about grit so far. i'm in a match against kiwi, my sensei vs his grit, on this map: http://awbw.amarriner.com/prevmaps.php?maps_id=57041

but there's not much to report so far

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Satel

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Satel » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:18 pm

I kinda know that Adder is weak. Sad thing is, I can't find anything suiting his character and that's not called MOAR MOVEMENT. And I wouldn't want to give him two movement on COP and three on SCOP, it would just break him in so many ways...
Joey wrote:i think i was mad at certain players and wanted to wave st3rn's success in their face at the most opportune moment, or something

st3rn fudge st3rn

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Xenesis
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Hydrocarbon Inspector
3DS Code: 2535-4646-7163
Location: 0x020232DD

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Xenesis » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:43 pm

St3rn wrote:I kinda know that Adder is weak. Sad thing is, I can't find anything suiting his character and that's not called MOAR MOVEMENT. And I wouldn't want to give him two movement on COP and three on SCOP, it would just break him in so many ways...
In a quite literal sense.

The game's pathfinding breaks if any unit has more than 11 Movement, and Adder with a +3 Movement SCOP would hit that on Fighters.
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

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kiwi

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by kiwi » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:55 am

wrapped up a sami VS sensei on http://awbw.amarriner.com/prevmaps.php?maps_id=10750
and max VS sensei on http://awbw.amarriner.com/prevmaps.php?maps_id=24060

sensei is SO GOOD and by good I mean ANNOYING and by annoying I mean I wanna PUNCH HIS FACE

speaking of FACE PUNCHING can you adjust the COP boosts so adder gets 120/100 or something? not sure that's better than 110/110 but seems IN CHARACTER, guy looks like first strike or bust, and also like a stiff breeze will knock him over

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Satel

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Satel » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:58 am

I don't intend to change the default boosts, so no. Just adding offense and/or removing defense to Adder is out of the question too.
As for Sensei, uh... I'll need to test him, because you're not stating exactly what's so annoying about him.

Also, concerning the literal gamebreaking power of universal +3 movement, I nerfed fighters' movement to 7, so +3 does not quite crash it now. Still not an incentive to make it a thing, though.
Joey wrote:i think i was mad at certain players and wanted to wave st3rn's success in their face at the most opportune moment, or something

st3rn fudge st3rn

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Xenesis
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Hydrocarbon Inspector
3DS Code: 2535-4646-7163
Location: 0x020232DD

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Xenesis » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:38 am

You could always make it a first strike boost (+Firepower, -Counterattack Damage) so you have like +30% Firepower on attack, but neutral on counter-attack.
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

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Sven

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Sven » Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:55 pm

Has anyone played games on maps that don't have bases that are 2 moves away from each other?

like is the pacing on them just glacial or what?

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Blame Game

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Blame Game » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:50 am

one of my matches with kiwi ('joey vs smitan') is on a map like that

i built recons early on, and copters later, which helps. now i'm struggling with arty blobs though.

honestly forget the smitan comparison, grit is basically just gage on crack. gage's whole thing was get the blob going, build COP, but don't use COP. just rely on the threat of it to keep gaining ground until you checkmate them. grit is all of that, but with a way way way better artillery boost, doesn't have to worry about really strong copters, and continues to gain meter even after building COP. his SCOP could do absolutely nothing and it would still be amazing just having the extra stars to fill.

haven't used sensei SCOP yet so i don't have much of a sense for how good he is. seems like a nightmare waiting to happen though.

ultra-tentative top 7, colin #1, then hachi/grit/sensei/sami/hawke/max in no order? does anyone else seem like a real CO to you guys? i'd still put colin as easy #1 but i could see hachi hanging with him, or COs with good unit boosts on certain maps.

even more tentative bottom 3, just for fun (i haven't played as any of these COs): kanbei/sonja/adder

there's just no way i could advocate kanbei over hawke, basically; i'd pick flak before kanbei. sonja deserves some attention before coming to conclusions but it just seems rough. -20 total bad luck is so fudge gross and her powers aren't going to be ruining anyone's day or anything. i guess she has nice mechs though? how does she even remotely touch grit though. and adder is adder. i'd just make his meter xXXX~

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Satel

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Satel » Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:39 am

Working on some more balance changes, notably Colin and Sensei Power Bar nerfs.

I'll edit to post the updated patch. Don't forget to take a look at the first post when this is all done.

EDIT: It's going to be a bit longer than expected, because I will repoint all the CO boosts.

EDIT: Here is the patch update. First post will be updated shorthly. Don't play Adder until I actually make his new pointers.
Joey wrote:i think i was mad at certain players and wanted to wave st3rn's success in their face at the most opportune moment, or something

st3rn fudge st3rn

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kiwi

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by kiwi » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:24 pm

oh cool, don't worry too much about churning these out though, it takes time to play around with things

ALSO if I keep the old patches will I be able to switch between them by applying them again?

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Xenesis
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Hydrocarbon Inspector
3DS Code: 2535-4646-7163
Location: 0x020232DD

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Xenesis » Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:04 pm

kiwi wrote:ALSO if I keep the old patches will I be able to switch between them by applying them again?
You should always patch to an unmodified rom, but yes.
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

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Blame Game

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Blame Game » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:07 pm

http://imgur.com/VtUz0g4

conclusion to one of my matches with kiwi. already down a property and probably losing another in short order, with no real prospects for taking one back. the west prop was taken with pretty much no resistance, i had basically nothing but infantry there and tried to force something on the eastern half to make up for it, but it didn't pan out.

iirc i had a reasonable leg-up in the capture phase due to recons or something. there was some random dubious stuff, like i tried some stuff with copters that didn't work out, blah blah blah.

map seems winnable for sensei in theory though, maybe?? sensei/grit matchup is weird. intuitively i'd think that you want to beat grit by smothering him quickly, but sensei isn't really going to be doing that. seems like you want to play for the SCOP, make a push there and pray that grit isn't past the point of no return by then. but i was nowhere near SCOP by the time it was clear that the western prop was lost. i only got super when i did because i rushed in some artillery while trying to steal the eastern prop.

if i were to play the map/matchup again i'd probably go straight for artillery and just try to hold as close to parity as possible before super. it sounds like a nightmare but it's probably better than being down in raw artillery numbers against grit, it seems way too easy for him to bully you in that case. non-scop copters did fudge all in this match, i don't know what to do with them when antiair are faster and have much better utility overall.
Last edited by Blame Game on Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Satel

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Satel » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:21 pm

BG, I can't see your image :S

Also, I'm changing computers this weekend, so don't expect much to be done until Sunday. Until then, enjoy a blandie Adder and the Colin and Sensei nerfs. :D
Joey wrote:i think i was mad at certain players and wanted to wave st3rn's success in their face at the most opportune moment, or something

st3rn fudge st3rn

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DieselPheonix

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by DieselPheonix » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:17 am

I apologise for doing things the kiwi way but it seems none of our computers are able to run the map programs posted earlier.

Maps were chosen by archetype, such as two bases per side or three, or known user with minor editing due to editor limitations. For example, towers and silos may become cities, roads, or forests. The third map may be editted for more extreme setups and are denoted with Green Earth and Yellow Comet as the playable armies.

x0_20x20; three bases, one airport
Rocky Road Special
Stalagmite I
Rubble

x0_under20; three bases, one airport
Tides of War
Gyroptic
Three

nerd-boy; two bases, one airport
Erosion
Waterbug
I see it every time I close my eyes

Fugue; various
Dragon Install: Sakkai
A Solitude Which Asks for Nothing in Return
Fatal Duel

lazernerd; various
Hysteria
Sandpit Isle
High Skies

Random 1; two bases
9 Minutes
Luon Highway
Land 2.0 War

Test
(test map with various setups)
Apocalyptic
Hypnotize

If you do not know how to open .sav files, open your game normally, then go to File, then Import, then Battery File. This does not appear to affect CO and unit stats. Loading savestates is done normally with Ctrl + L and opening the respective .sgm file and does not require the matching .sav file.

I believe two bases with possible airport is optimal under current settings to avoid artillery spamming, and even then it is still quite probable. Artillery at 3-4 range are simply very good even without Grit and may need restructuring of unit costs to accomodate.
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Xenesis
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Hydrocarbon Inspector
3DS Code: 2535-4646-7163
Location: 0x020232DD

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Xenesis » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:33 am

Aw, that's a shame that no one can get the map editing programs to work? :|

(Perhaps people need a newer version of the actual app itself, because I know it runs fine on Windows XP.
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

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Blame Game

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Blame Game » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:34 am

i'm like 20% suspicious that airports are a trap anyway. let me spend 9k to force you to build two good units (AA+mech). in AW2 being forced to build an antiair kind of sucks, in this it's like a hipster tank or something, there's no issue building that thing at all. i tried building a couple against kiwi with the hope being that i could one day engineer a way to bully his AA around (not having to deal with counterattack means two b-copters can take on an antiair alone). not only did i not figure out how to do that, but it wouldn't have actually mattered because who cares, just build more anti-air, what's stopping you. even missiles are like that, they basically have b-ship range, do super solid damage to soldiers and like 30% to tanks? i have no qualms building those either.

that's not to suggest that missiles and anti-air are too good, i think they're really cool, fun units. i just suspect b-copters don't have a place.

anyway that's highly appreciated DP, wow. if anyone wants more matches on the new patch let me know

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Sven

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Sven » Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:38 am

DP's saves mean we're pretty good mapwise. if DP/kiwi want games just ship me an email and matchup/map requests and we can start. thanks guys!

as for the arty/not arty thing, i'm pretty sure that's just player preference at this point - i can't stand the things in this patch. recons are so insanely flexible now with the new tire movement that i'm completely comfortable going out of my way making sure i have one on the field at all times, definitely two if i had 3 bases. the natural progression afterwards is to build a tank of some sort to fight off the recon - two mechs backing eachother up is a pipedream early on. building an arty into a board of tanks + recons going after eachother seems suicidal. idk.

the inf/mech movement being limited to two means you can't rely on a skeleton network of inf to defend most fronts on a map now - instead of there being 2 reasonable props to fight over, we're now looking at 6+. it's way too easy to force arty into babysitting one city for the rest of its natural life - you just ignore it and go and hit other places with the directs you have access to.

the range definitely helps and if both players "play nice" with eachother in the early game i don't see how it doesn't devolve into a stalemate. but i'm pretty sure if i go gunning at you with recons and tanks you aren't gonns top me with mono arty 1 tank.

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Blame Game

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Blame Game » Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:54 am

i'd be excited to see sven v kiwi on the same map, same matchup kiwi and i played on TBQH but i'd understand if neither if you wanted to deal with that crumpets.

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kiwi

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by kiwi » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:42 pm

right I'm back SO YEAH we probably don't need to see how rad grit is unless it's a 2 base map, haven't really tried him on those

also colin is now 85% costs? kinda a weird number

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Blame Game

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Blame Game » Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:48 pm

the higher colin's costs get, the more likely it is that hachi is just a stabler, better choice. he might be reasonable strength-wise though.

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Satel

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Satel » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:48 am

While 85% does seem like a weird number, it's still much more noticeable than 90% IMO. Then again, I nerfed his stats so hard he might get back to 80%.
Joey wrote:i think i was mad at certain players and wanted to wave st3rn's success in their face at the most opportune moment, or something

st3rn fudge st3rn

User avatar
Blame Game

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Blame Game » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:15 am

it's just a weird balancing act i think. 80% is super extreme, it's way too easy to get an overwhelming opening advantage. if you try to balance it out with huge stat decreases, that still doesn't solve the problem of overwhelming opening advantage; it just means that there are some COs like Hawke that have the stats to murder him on certain maps where his opening advantage isn't ridiculous enough.

but the other issue is that hachi exists, and is really similar. the closer colin's prices get to 90%, the more redundant the two COs become. at this point i'd probably use hachi every single time; with only 5% higher prices but way better stats, the only time i'd consider colin is if the extra 5% discount happens to push things over the edge on a particular map (vehicle one day earlier + that vehicle being important enough to justify the way worse stats). so you're stuck with either a really extreme colin who's difficult to balance, or a tame colin who ends up redundant with hachi. i don't really know what you could do, i guess you could try to differentiate their powers more or something. colin 90% 100/90 with 2-star gold rush as opposed to hachi 90% 100/100 with whatever SCOP he has right now could be okay maybe?? if it were me i'd probably just turn one of them into kindle though hahahah

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Satel

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Satel » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:36 am

I don't intend to have Colin go at 90% prices, except if I take the option to make Hachi and Nell as OP as Sturm. That is, despite how good your alternative would be, I am just not willing to implement it.

Now to actually get back to work... New patch tonight! For now I'm updating the first post concerning CO changes.

EDIT: Here is the new patch. Colin changes, Adder and Sonja buffs, you'll find it all.
Joey wrote:i think i was mad at certain players and wanted to wave st3rn's success in their face at the most opportune moment, or something

st3rn fudge st3rn

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DieselPheonix

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by DieselPheonix » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:03 am

Unfortunately I do not have time to play at the moment. Apologies.

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Blame Game

Re: Working on an AW2 New Meta Hack

Post by Blame Game » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:18 pm

latest adder change (110/100 d2d) seems good

but oh WOW that sonja change (+1 indirect range). kiwi and i are doing grit v sonja right now. i probably still favor grit here (i think she was basically doomed against grit before, so it's a massive improvement at least). of course it's a risky change in general, since it could seriously polarize matchups with other COs. against grit though, she has to deal with the fact that she's usually doing 3 damage or less in artillery vs artillery. with his scop i think grit won't have much more of an issue snowballing artillery than he does against anyone else. possibly i'm missing a lot of additional nuance associated with +1 indirect range though, i'm sure sven can figure out ways to hold a meaningful early advantage by locking down cities with +1 artillery way earlier than anyone else can, or something. so jury's out on that. definitely looking forward to messing around with her either way.

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