Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.1

Discussion of hacking, editing and developments in Advance Wars games.
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GreenEarth
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Post by GreenEarth » Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:50 pm

Mark999 wrote:
GreenEarth wrote:What's broken? I didn't post anything. Did I post anything? Nope.
Dork. You edited you post! :D :) :? :o :shock: :( 8) :lol: :x :P :oops: :cry: :evil: :twisted: :roll: :wink: :arrow: :idea: :?: :!:
Editing posts? Me? That's unthinkable. Shame on you, Mark the CMXCIX.

Whoever knows what that means gets a cookie.

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Post by Mark999 » Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:04 pm

O RLY?
Last edited by GreenEarth on Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:10 am; edited 1 time in total
What is this then?

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Post by Xenesis » Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:08 pm

<_<;

It really doesn't matter.
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GreenEarth
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Post by GreenEarth » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:26 am

Mark999 wrote:O RLY?
Last edited by GreenEarth on Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:10 am; edited 1 time in total
What is this then?
Photo shop. It must be photo shop.

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Post by GreenEarth » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:41 am

On a more serious note, the soldiers in the text box are weirdly coloured. Or maybe it's my rom.

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RadioShadow
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Post by RadioShadow » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:09 am

You mean some text in the unit's description has parts of the text in blue, red or grey? If so, you can do that to the AW2 text.
Image

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GreenEarth
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Post by GreenEarth » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:26 pm

No, I mean in the dialog (is that right? I'm not sure) when a soldier is talking, they're weirdly coloured. The black hole infantry when it is talking is nearly almost all black, except for the outlining of the face and stuff.

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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by A Guy » Sat May 02, 2009 10:15 pm

If I may suggest sometihng...

What if we made Power of Money actually deplete Colin's funds?

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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by ThunderWalker » Sat May 02, 2009 11:55 pm

That should be funny, but makes PoM somewhat useless...

Anyway, my two cents.

:samids:
Removed the transport boost. Okey.
Lowered the firepower of her footsoldiers. Okey.
It's also done in AWDS, but, here are no TAGS. AWDS Sami is good in Tags, and fails somewhat without tags and the AWDS charging system. In AW2, she was somewhat overpowered. She was.
She needs a nerf. True.
But not a BIG nerf, because very many CO's will beat her very fast when you do that. Especially when they know how to fight Sami.

Higher defense for her foot soldiers can be helpful, like the orginal AW, but I'll dare to say even 120/120 with the new infantry defense. Then her infantry will be somewhat like the AW2 infantry and her Mechs are equal to Tanks on defense terms.

Also I wonder if Jess isn't a better choice at a standard ground map, especially against an human opponent?
They have to be equal in a ground map; both have their strengths at ground maps and their weaknesses at air and sea. I think Jess is superior to Sami with these stats. In AW2 Sami is superior at land, while loosing ground at air and see due to the fuel and ammo advantages of Jess, but Jess is now superior at land, and keeps her advantage at air and see. I build Tanks instead of Mechs and even more artillery and use Jess instead...
There will be maps where Sami will crush Jess, but Lash, Grit and Sonja are better choices, especially in FoW. There are still some exceptions, because of the higher capture rate, but if you can't get more property's than your opponent, you're screwed. And a good opponent - especially Jess, Hawke and Max - will prevent Sami from getting those needed extra property's. She needs transport boosts, or a serious defense. I know how to play - and counter - Sami. And really, that's quite easy with the new infantry defense. I haven't tested it yet because I failed in installing the hack, but it's too obvious to test. A few calculations were enough.

The transport boost is what made her overpowered, but removing it, and the lower infantry defense and in her case also firepower, is what should make her underpowered. She is even weaker than in AWDS day to day.

:gritds:
Underpowered Day to day, broken COP. +2 range, and a crumpets of offense/defense for his indirects.
That COP is stronger than AW2's Super Snipe :o The SCOP is even more powerful. Grit keeps being overpowered/broken.

And a question.
How do you install the hack/mod?
YES, I downloaded that other IPS to "activate" it.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by Xenesis » Sun May 03, 2009 5:23 pm

Alright, just a few comments. It'll be a bit from memory though because I haven't touched the AW2 Balance hack for like...a year and a half? Maybe two?

Sami: Her big strength was always her capture bonus and her infantry offence. While I suppose I could boost her Soldier stats up a bit she was pretty damn good in AWDS (Still High/Top tier) with 120/100 and no transport boosts. I suppose Jess may be a better pure ground CO, but sami has advantages especially with the cheaply costed Double Time to inflict damage and capture.

What made her overpowered was a combination of the transport boost, strong CO powers, capture boost and the dominance of infantry. I don't think it's "obvious", as in all honesty I'm sick of theory and would rather people actually playtest the thing and give their thoughts.

As for Grit, He's got the best D2D indirects in the game. I suppose he could have a better D2D, but I think weaker D2D + good powers is the better option as I'm trying to keep the flavour of the COs as much as possible. Also note that beyond the Defence bonus, Snipe Attack gives Identical stats to the normal Snipe Attack. Not to mention the change to the way damage is calculated means that it only reduces damage by 1/3, not by 2/3 like the standard AW2 damage formula. The SCOP is pretty crazy, but unless you've got a lot of cities covered you'll run out of ammo fast. It takes 3 shots under his SCOP to equal the damage from one shot under his D2D, so the firepower is about the same as his COP. The advantage here is that your indirects can spread their damage around multiple targets and that you don't have to overkill.

And on how to use IPS patches, see this topic.

I'm not opposed to updating the hack, but unless there's a demand for it I'm not really going to bother beyond fixing a few bugs I know I need to.
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by ThunderWalker » Sun May 03, 2009 6:28 pm

Xenesis wrote:Alright, just a few comments. It'll be a bit from memory though because I haven't touched the AW2 Balance hack for like...a year and a half? Maybe two?

Sami: Her big strength was always her capture bonus and her infantry offence. While I suppose I could boost her Soldier stats up a bit she was pretty damn good in AWDS (Still High/Top tier) with 120/100 and no transport boosts. I suppose Jess may be a better pure ground CO, but sami has advantages especially with the cheaply costed Double Time to inflict damage and capture.

What made her overpowered was a combination of the transport boost, strong CO powers, capture boost and the dominance of infantry. I don't think it's "obvious", as in all honesty I'm sick of theory and would rather people actually playtest the thing and give their thoughts.
Problem is, both are pure ground CO's, with almost the same weakness, especially with these stats. That means Sami have to win at least 50% of the battles against Jess, no matter what. But Sami wins 20%, not 50...
It's the infantry lower defense that hurts her.

Another note: Max Force is underpowered in comparison to Sideslip. Offence boost can be somewhat higher, like in AW2.
As for Grit, He's got the best D2D indirects in the game. I suppose he could have a better D2D, but I think weaker D2D + good powers is the better option as I'm trying to keep the flavour of the COs as much as possible. Also note that beyond the Defence bonus, Snipe Attack gives Identical stats to the normal Snipe Attack. Not to mention the change to the way damage is calculated means that it only reduces damage by 1/3, not by 2/3 like the standard AW2 damage formula. The SCOP is pretty crazy, but unless you've got a lot of cities covered you'll run out of ammo fast. It takes 3 shots under his SCOP to equal the damage from one shot under his D2D, so the firepower is about the same as his COP. The advantage here is that your indirects can spread their damage around multiple targets and that you don't have to overkill.
It's true, but the COP is, in comparison to the day to day, ridiculous. It's worth five stars at least, and the SCOP seven.
And on how to use IPS patches, see this topic.

I'm not opposed to updating the hack, but unless there's a demand for it I'm not really going to bother beyond fixing a few bugs I know I need to.
I'll try the Patch soon, because I've pointed my mistake out! Thanks :wink:

Played a game, and it works. Air units with Terrain Stars???!!! Lash > Broken?
Btw, Vladimir should own the seas with 150/130 Cruisers :P Especially if I am in a Cruiser Spamming Mood.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by Xenesis » Sun May 03, 2009 7:48 pm

Problem is, both are pure ground CO's, with almost the same weakness, especially with these stats. That means Sami have to win at least 50% of the battles against Jess, no matter what. But Sami wins 20%, not 50...
Uh, where are you getting the win statistics from? Both are pure ground COs and both do different things - Sami is an infantry/capture specialist and Jess is a vehicle specialist. The other thing to note is that Sami is not necessarily weaker than Jess at sea - Sami has better Battleships, but Jess' army is more self-sustainable. Jess wins in the air, but they're both mostly equally pathetic there. The fact they have similar weaknesses is irrelevant. I'm sure the balance isn't perfect, but I'm not convinced that Jess Vs Sami is that skewed, especially on a variety of maps.
Another note: Max Force is underpowered in comparison to Sideslip. Offence boost can be somewhat higher, like in AW2.
It's an attempt to re-balance Max's powers. Max Force was pretty amazing for it's cost while Max Blast was rather underwhelming, because with the movement boost, they hit like a truck. 131/110 +1 Move Directs Vs 110/110 +1 Move All is similar, Max has advantages and disadvantages compared to Adder. It's not just the pure stat boost that's important - it's the overall result. The other thing was to attempt to not render Jess Vs Max too lopsided depending on the map. Max gets Air support and Jess gets good indirects.
It's true, but the COP is, in comparison to the day to day, ridiculous. It's worth five stars at least, and the SCOP seven.
If the D2D is as weak as you feel, then it's probably about right then. Look at Hawke as a counter-example: His COP is 1 star too expensive and his SCOP is two stars too expensive for what they probably should be, but his good stats complement this.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by ThunderWalker » Sun May 03, 2009 8:09 pm

Xenesis wrote:
Problem is, both are pure ground CO's, with almost the same weakness, especially with these stats. That means Sami have to win at least 50% of the battles against Jess, no matter what. But Sami wins 20%, not 50...
Uh, where are you getting the win statistics from?
I think so. But you're right anyway, I should let the AI's engage eachother and watch to what they're doing in a symmetrical map.
At land-only, but also at air/sea.
After a few tests, we'll see who is doing better at land only. Ten battles should be enough, but I don't have enough time for ten battles.

But Jess will win 80% of the time in theory wars :o .

At least using Sami is a lot harder.

Pyramid Cape: I'm Grit at orange star, Jess is Blue moon, Sami is Green Earth.
I'll play very defensive and stop advancing at the two neutral cities in the center of the map.

Edit: Interesting AI. Sami starts a Mech Flood straight away. I wonder if the Jess AI can counter that.
Edit 2: I yielded at day 15
Another note: Max Force is underpowered in comparison to Sideslip. Offence boost can be somewhat higher, like in AW2.
It's an attempt to re-balance Max's powers. Max Force was pretty amazing for it's cost while Max Blast was rather underwhelming, because with the movement boost, they hit like a truck. 131/110 +1 Move Directs Vs 110/110 +1 Move All is similar, Max has advantages and disadvantages compared to Adder. It's not just the pure stat boost that's important - it's the overall result. The other thing was to attempt to not render Jess Vs Max too lopsided depending on the map. Max gets Air support and Jess gets good indirects.
But Adder gets also the default boost. So, yay, Max pays one extra star for an +1 direct offence, while Adder's movement boosts all his units.
It's true, but the COP is, in comparison to the day to day, ridiculous. It's worth five stars at least, and the SCOP seven.
If the D2D is as weak as you feel, then it's probably about right then. Look at Hawke as a counter-example: His COP is 1 star too expensive and his SCOP is two stars too expensive for what they probably should be, but his good stats complement this.
Last edited by ThunderWalker on Sun May 03, 2009 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by Xenesis » Sun May 03, 2009 8:19 pm

I think so. But you're right anyway, I should let the AI's engage eachother and watch to what they're doing in a symmetrical map.
At land-only, but also at air/sea.
After a few tests, we'll see who is doing better at land only. Ten battles should be enough, but I don't have enough time for ten battles.
That doesn't mean too much - the AIs are idiotic and have poor build patterns. Not to mention they don't know how to use most of the CO's powers properly. If you follow the AIs, you'd probably end up with Colin far lower down the tiers than he should be. <_<;
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by ThunderWalker » Sun May 03, 2009 8:45 pm

The Sami AI's ignores the set build pattern.
Army: Eleven Mechs, Eight Tanks, four rockets, four artillery, two Md. Tanks, and some other stuff.

The Jess AI can't use the powers right, and can't counter Sami's Mech Swarm. The Jess AI is on the losing side, it will take at least hundred days before it's beaten. Neotank on the HQ (Counter Victory March, HQ guard) destroyed.


However, you're right anyway ^^ The AI makes MANY mistakes.


Edit:
Two games played, War Room settings, but with FoW.
Well, Jess had actually a better capture phase than Sami (Loop Road, Jess & Sami vs Adder & Adder, 44 days).
And without Victory March Sami should be fired by Nell :o (Sabre Range, Sami vs Adder, 26 days).
Edit 2: I forgotten a thing ^^ . (18:14, Greenwich Moon Time +1)


Edit 3/4: Time Edit 2 added, and I fought Sami with Adder.
This time, I was Adder. It was the first time I played Adder - I never used him before.
But I managed to rout her at da 25 (Sabre Range, Adder vs Sami, 25 days).
(19:49, Greenwich Moon Time +1 (obvious :P ))

Edit 5: Another fight, at Point Stormy. Sami vs Hachi. I should have lost in around 50 days. Earlier I found this map too TOO easy with Sami, but Sensei isn't nerfed all that much when it comes to capturing. Well, Sensei will have better capturing phases. Especially on large low-fund maps. Sami can't get the center factory in time, her infantry will brought down to two HP in a single hit (recon) > capture rate = useless.
Using the higher capture rate will rarely work, unless your opponent uses weakened vehicles or infantry/mech units to stop your capturing. But a new Recon work too well. And the AI doesn't. The AI will spawn a pair of recons, and stops any attempt to capture with infantry later on... And once the Mechs arrived it's too late. Neh, I'll use Sensei instead in most War Room maps, and otherwise I use Jess. The only exception is Risky Vale though :P
(5-5-2009, 21:40, Greenwich Moon Time +1 (again :P )
Last edited by ThunderWalker on Wed May 06, 2009 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by A Guy » Mon May 04, 2009 3:28 am

I don't think making Colin's SCOP deplete his funds would underpower him, if the firepower bonus was adjusted to match.

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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by ThunderWalker » Thu May 07, 2009 12:14 am

@A Guy: True.

@Xen: I've played about then games with your hack. Well, most is balanced, but some definitely isn't. Yes, Sami, but also Grit's COP, or Lash' SCOP maybe too. 16 terrain stars are a LOT. The firepower seems to go up with it, and altough the air units doesn't get terrain defense, they DO get terrain stars (they don't count on defense). If it helps Lash' air offence, I have to try it, but if it does, it needs to be fixed. B-Copters are harder to takedown, even above seas, Anti Airs can't do it in one hit except with a good COP/SCOP in effect. 75% is the base damage, no matter the terrain. Missiles do 120%, even when the B-Copter is on a mountain.
This will make Sensei very scary when air is available, and Max somewhat useless on a good land-air map, and especially when considering that Sensei will have a insane capture phase, and gets a 25% income advantage on Max. :o
The exception will be a second Drake opponent or teammate. Being Drake should work well against Sensei and also against Eagle. Annoying Typhoon :P . But Max is the counter to Drake as long as navy isn't available.

Also a point that bugs me is Adder. He's making Max' COP useless. The direct offense is a thing Max haves day to day, not only during his powers :? And THAT's making your argument about firepower falling. Max' Offense boost during his COP is too small, and also Max' Blast is some kind of fail. There should be a way to balance it, because this definitely isn't what I should call "balanced". I know what you want, Max Force a movement boost + slight direct offense, and Max Blast just sheer power. I agree, but I don't think it's possible to balance that in comparison to most other CO's.
The firepower boost might be somewhat larger, maybe 20% and the +1 movement during Max Force, and Max Blast should give Directs also a better defense (say +20 or +30%, not too much). Or, otherwise, just simply blowing the first star ( :smallstar: ) of the COP-meter.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by Xenesis » Thu May 07, 2009 1:45 am

Sensei still needs a nerf anyhow, no argument there.

As far as Lash is concerned, I made her a lot more powerful because leaving her as AWDS Lash would mean that she would be quite honestly terrible (She's down the bottom of the pile in AWDS) - She only gets +5 per star now instead of 10 so she's a lot more manageable. 4x Terrain Stars for a SCOP isn't that much either - It's still weaker than Samurai Spirit overall and her Firepower boosts under the SCOP are exactly the same as AW2 Standard. In fact, with the defence system changes and firepower changes, it's generally worse than her AW2 standard SCOP in terms of actual damage reduction. 16 Terrain stars under the new system is equalled by 6 Stars under the old system (approximately) - Lash on a City in AW2 has more defence than Lash on a HQ/Mountain now under SCOp.

Also, Max Blast is awesome, although I dunno why I didn't make it 190 or 200. 55% Matchups should be OHK'd, that was the draw of the power - try using it in AWDS, it's pretty amazing. I actually have some trickery in mind for Max if I do an update. The other thing is that Max got improved by the damage formula change - He'll do about 20-30% more damage to units on Cities under his powers than he used to. (Effective firepower Vs Cities was 98% Under AW2, 101% now, 112% Vs 139%. That's the reason I was cautious with Max's numbers - the change to the defence system meant that he can do a *lot* more damage to high terrain than he used to be able to (And that was basically the metric I used for his COP)

I might bump his numbers a tad, though.

In the case of Adder, it was a way to add something to his SCOP to make it worthwhile. Do remember you have to wait quite a while before it really stands up to Max Force.

I'm still not seeing Sami and Eh, Grit. Goddamn I am sick of Grit.

Regardless, I've designed myself some new systems so I can actually make changes more easily now. <_<;
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by ThunderWalker » Thu May 07, 2009 3:30 am

Xenesis wrote:Sensei still needs a nerf anyhow, no argument there.

As far as Lash is concerned, I made her a lot more powerful because leaving her as AWDS Lash would mean that she would be quite honestly terrible (She's down the bottom of the pile in AWDS) - She only gets +5 per star now instead of 10 so she's a lot more manageable. 4x Terrain Stars for a SCOP isn't that much either - It's still weaker than Samurai Spirit overall and her Firepower boosts under the SCOP are exactly the same as AW2 Standard. In fact, with the defence system changes and firepower changes, it's generally worse than her AW2 standard SCOP in terms of actual damage reduction. 16 Terrain stars under the new system is equalled by 6 Stars under the old system (approximately) - Lash on a City in AW2 has more defence than Lash on a HQ/Mountain now under SCOp.
True, but that wasn't what I meant. I meant if Air Units are also affected by Lash' offense boost. the defensive terrain boost won't affect air units, but I don't know the offensive boost will. If so, Lash is broken. I'll test it tonight.

Due to ground combat, I pointed especially to her mechs, and more or less also to some of her other units (cities).
And due to the point that Lash' Mountain Mechs are actually 220/340 (220/170 in old stats), they're MASSIVE. That's broken.

Edit: Terrain affect the offensive Air unit boost. The air units will get the offensive benefits from terrain stars AND, but NOT the defensive. My Bomber did 223% to an Andy inf after the Hyper Repair turn, with Prime Tactics activated :) Artillery on city > 100% vs Adder Tank (also turn after COP) on Plains. Offensively, the SCOP is MORE powerful than in AW2 ; the extra terrain stars during Prime Tactics weren't put into an offensive boost :P Or the terrain stars beneath the air units.

Het D2D and COP are better balanced, and her SCOP should have to be. The SCOP is actually balanced, but not as long air units are affected.
Also, Max Blast is awesome, although I dunno why I didn't make it 190 or 200. 55% Matchups should be OHK'd, that was the draw of the power - try using it in AWDS, it's pretty amazing. I actually have some trickery in mind for Max if I do an update. The other thing is that Max got improved by the damage formula change - He'll do about 20-30% more damage to units on Cities under his powers than he used to. (Effective firepower Vs Cities was 98% Under AW2, 101% now, 112% Vs 139%. That's the reason I was cautious with Max's numbers - the change to the defence system meant that he can do a *lot* more damage to high terrain than he used to be able to (And that was basically the metric I used for his COP)

I might bump his numbers a tad, though.

In the case of Adder, it was a way to add something to his SCOP to make it worthwhile. Do remember you have to wait quite a while before it really stands up to Max Force.
Adder:
- All units Offence is increased by: (current day X 1%) + 10% = offence increase
- All units Movement is increased by 2 spaces
- All units gain +10% Defence (110%)

Max:
- Direct units Movement is increased by 1 space
- Direct units gain +11% Offence (131%)
- All other units gain +10% Offence (110%)
- All other units gain +10% Defence (110%)

That means, you have to wait 42 days, to exactly equal his firepower. But, that wasn't what I meant. The BOOST with Max Force is just a mere 11%. That means, Sidewinder / Snakebite will equal that in just only two days.
It's just Max D2D that keeps him were he is.

Also, I didn't asked for more firepower during Max Blast, just only during Max Force.
I asked for more ARMOR during Max Blast.
I'm still not seeing Sami and Eh, Grit. Goddamn I am sick of Grit.
Grit: Solution is simple: His COP needs to cost an extra star.
It's still incredibly powerful for it's costs, but it is still loads better than Tsunami or Morale Boost (or Black Wave for that matter).

Well, Sami is on many points weaker than one of her opponents.

She fares best at ground only.

Small ground only maps:
Use Kanbei instead.
Large / Medium-sized ground only maps:
Use Sensei or Jess instead.
Other maps, you can use allrounders, or a specialty CO like Drake or Eagle.

Ugh.

Due to the low Infantry defense, Sami can't make use of her higher capture rate (2 HP infantry on a city can't capture the second day), and the result being worse than bland with slightly superior infantry units - capturing with Mechs isn't a good idea.
The only exceptions to these rules are Zero Woods and Risky Vale. And also Risky Vale is impossible to perfect-S-rank with the new Sami. Max' Recons will knock your Infantry out like there was no tomorrow. And the AI build recons like there was no tomorrow with your hack.
She isn't weak herself; it's the lower Infantry defense that is crippling her capture phase, and that's, with those weakened directs, very annoying. Especially if the powers aren't gamebreakers like Max Blast or Snakebite, unless your opponent is stupid. She needs something to pack a punch, but that's exactly what she lacks (but she is a special ops, so that is alright - as long as she haves a good capture phase :? ). And worse, Grit can just simply keep his COP charged to keep her away, even with Victory March charged. Other COs should have a more difficult time against her, but as long as the forward or important properties are occupied, there's nothing to worry about.

Also the powers in AW2 charge slower than in AWDS. Double Time is the worst CO power ingame due to this, together with your Max Force. Her SCOP? Well, don't bother even using it to capture in mid-game, because the AI will have almost all his important properties occupied once it's nearly charged. I just use it to clear out the battlefield, because a good player (and the AI) know what to do otherwise if it's charged. It works only if you're already winning, but that won't happen that often, especially not when your opponent haves a more versatile SCOP. Sami's SCOP is the least versatile ingame, and the instant capture is even more opponent-dependant than Hyper Upgrade, Samurai Spirit or Counter Break. The instant capture is very good, but at the same time an epic fail. The only thing that always help is the movement & firepower boost. And even THAT won't help always. She needs something she haven't. She didn't need stronger tanks or whatever, but she needs something in addition. If she can't get the capture advantage, she can't win. That was always already true with her, but no even more so, because she simply can't get the capture advantage unless your opponent is dumb and attack your infantry with his instead of with a recon... :x

Also I find a Victory March bug, the infantry doesn't get the movement-type-change. In Double Time it works fine, but in Victory March it fails.

Regardless, I've designed myself some new systems so I can actually make changes more easily now. <_<;
Good job :P
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by Xenesis » Thu May 07, 2009 11:17 am

Preface: You need to work out your numbers better, they're uh, wrong most of the time. (Hint: Use my CO Stats FAQ on the front page, it has the correct numbers)
And due to the point that Lash' Mountain Mechs are actually 220/340 (220/170 in old stats), they're MASSIVE. That's broken.
They're uh, 190/340 compared to 180/190 in AW2 Standard. And for the first one, the damage taken is Attack Damage/Stats, while for AW2 Standard it's Attack Damage * (200 - Stats)

Lash has less defence now, even though the numbers are larger. With the new damage formula Lash would need 1000% Defence to match her original AW2 numbers in defence. AW2 Standard Lash takes only 0.10 of damage on a 4 Star terrain under SCOP, while BH2 Lash takes 0.29 of damage. It's considerably weaker defensively at high numbers.
Edit: Terrain affect the offensive Air unit boost. The air units will get the offensive benefits from terrain stars AND, but NOT the defensive. My Bomber did 223% to an Andy inf after the Hyper Repair turn, with Prime Tactics activated Artillery on city > 100% vs Adder Tank (also turn after COP) on Plains.
Bombers got a general buff too, you realise? Also firepower pierces defence more effectively now due to the ratio effect.
Offensively, the SCOP is MORE powerful than in AW2 ; the extra terrain stars during Prime Tactics weren't put into an offensive boost Or the terrain stars beneath the air units.
The only change is that Air Units get the boost too. In AW2 the boost got doubled. I can even give you the disassembly of it if you want.
That means, you have to wait 42 days, to exactly equal his firepower. But, that wasn't what I meant. The BOOST with Max Force is just a mere 11%. That means, Sidewinder / Snakebite will equal that in just only two days.
It's just Max D2D that keeps him were he is.
By that logic, I'd have to nerf Kanbei's powers considerably. It's not the number after the + that matters, it's what the effect of the overall stats have. Max's COP had it's numbers reduced because the damage formula change meant that he'd be doing significantly more damage against defensive terrain. It's less damage at low terrain stars, but it's equal or more on higher terrain stars.
Grit: Solution is simple: His COP needs to cost an extra star.
It's still incredibly powerful for it's costs, but it is still loads better than Tsunami or Morale Boost (or Black Wave for that matter).
4/6 is a stupid bar length though. I'd rather just nerf it a bit.
Due to the low Infantry defense, Sami can't make use of her higher capture rate (2 HP infantry on a city can't capture the second day), and the result being worse than bland with slightly superior infantry units - capturing with Mechs isn't a good idea.
Funnily enough, that would have worked in AW1.

I might give her a slight defence boost, because you only need 3HP to guarantee capture with a 10HP unit that's captured 1 turn. Sami still has normal indirects, so yeah.
And also Risky Vale is impossible to perfect-S-rank with the new Sami. Max' Recons will knock your Infantry out like there was no tomorrow. And the AI build recons like there was no tomorrow with your hack.
Well, it was intended mostly for Vs so I didn't really care if it broke the War Room or Campaign as long as it didn't crash and was still completable. <_< Besides, more of a challenge for Fogel and Crew :p
Especially if the powers aren't gamebreakers like Max Blast or Snakebite, unless your opponent is stupid. She needs something to pack a punch, but that's exactly what she lacks (but she is a special ops, so that is alright - as long as she haves a good capture phase ).
Her punch is her SCOP, it's still brutal. Played right you can snatch up a ton of contested properties. And her COP got a buff. Mechs didn't take a hit at all in the defence stakes so they're still a robust and reliable source of damage.
Also the powers in AW2 charge slower than in AWDS. Double Time is the worst CO power ingame due to this, together with your Max Force.
Except they're generally not - Max still hits like a truck (And hits high defence areas harder than AW2 standard, plus will reliably OHK soldier meatshields now) and Sami's COP is still exceptional (Lets Mechs beat artillery, and puts the hurt on other soldiers.)
Sami's SCOP is the least versatile ingame, and the instant capture is even more opponent-dependant than Hyper Upgrade, Samurai Spirit or Counter Break. The instant capture is very good, but at the same time an epic fail. The only thing that always help is the movement & firepower boost. And even THAT won't help always.
Something tells me you're just not using the power right - it requires setup and timing but played right it's quite a coup de grace.
Also I find a Victory March bug, the infantry doesn't get the movement-type-change. In Double Time it works fine, but in Victory March it fails.
That's working as intended.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by ThunderWalker » Fri May 08, 2009 1:05 am

Xenesis wrote:Preface: You need to work out your numbers better, they're uh, wrong most of the time. (Hint: Use my CO Stats FAQ on the front page, it has the correct numbers)
And due to the point that Lash' Mountain Mechs are actually 220/340 (220/170 in old stats), they're MASSIVE. That's broken.
They're uh, 190/340 compared to 180/190 in AW2 Standard. And for the first one, the damage taken is Attack Damage/Stats, while for AW2 Standard it's Attack Damage * (200 - Stats)

Lash has less defence now, even though the numbers are larger. With the new damage formula Lash would need 1000% Defence to match her original AW2 numbers in defence. AW2 Standard Lash takes only 0.10 of damage on a 4 Star terrain under SCOP, while BH2 Lash takes 0.29 of damage. It's considerably weaker defensively at high numbers.
True. I tested it again, and I found a VERY stupid mistake, however, it was my own :P
Tough the damage the Bombers did was more than 190%. 223% > 246% without Andy's COP.
That is 198/260 (!). With the new defense, it should be somewhat lower, but 190% offense isn't true.
It haves to be true :wink: .

My mistake:
It were 16 stars instead of 24. *searches I-hit-the-wall-with-my-head smiley*
I was sleeping when testing Lash :c:

Sorry ^^
Edit: Terrain affect the offensive Air unit boost. The air units will get the offensive benefits from terrain stars AND, but NOT the defensive. My Bomber did 223% to an Andy inf after the Hyper Repair turn, with Prime Tactics activated Artillery on city > 100% vs Adder Tank (also turn after COP) on Plains.
Bombers got a general buff too, you realise? Also firepower pierces defence more effectively now due to the ratio effect.
Offensively, the SCOP is MORE powerful than in AW2 ; the extra terrain stars during Prime Tactics weren't put into an offensive boost Or the terrain stars beneath the air units.
The only change is that Air Units get the boost too. In AW2 the boost got doubled. I can even give you the disassembly of it if you want.
Well, some Faqs say it is 150/190 during SCOP. And I doesn't notice a firepower raise during SCOP. My artillery still survived a Mech at 2 HP during the scop, what means no 180/190 stats during SCOP.
That means, you have to wait 42 days, to exactly equal his firepower. But, that wasn't what I meant. The BOOST with Max Force is just a mere 11%. That means, Sidewinder / Snakebite will equal that in just only two days.
It's just Max D2D that keeps him were he is.
By that logic, I'd have to nerf Kanbei's powers considerably. It's not the number after the + that matters, it's what the effect of the overall stats have. Max's COP had it's numbers reduced because the damage formula change meant that he'd be doing significantly more damage against defensive terrain. It's less damage at low terrain stars, but it's equal or more on higher terrain stars.
Kanbei is good. On Max, Max force doesn't have much of an effect, aside of the movement. I don't use the COP often, except when te opponent's CO ask for movement (Grit, Sami, Kanbei). His SCOP is better, but, like Sami, you get mauled by your opponent the turn after you used it, altough somewhat less as Sami.
Grit: Solution is simple: His COP needs to cost an extra star.
It's still incredibly powerful for it's costs, but it is still loads better than Tsunami or Morale Boost (or Black Wave for that matter).
4/6 is a stupid bar length though. I'd rather just nerf it a bit.
Due to the low Infantry defense, Sami can't make use of her higher capture rate (2 HP infantry on a city can't capture the second day), and the result being worse than bland with slightly superior infantry units - capturing with Mechs isn't a good idea.
Funnily enough, that would have worked in AW1.

I might give her a slight defence boost, because you only need 3HP to guarantee capture with a 10HP unit that's captured 1 turn. Sami still has normal indirects, so yeah.
You need 4 HP to complete a 2-day capture... ^^ So even 120/120 will hurt her capturing, while making her mechs somewhat powerful. She needs at least 120/150 to complete a 2 day Infantry-capture when interrupted by a recon - while her Mechs are broken at the same time.
And also Risky Vale is impossible to perfect-S-rank with the new Sami. Max' Recons will knock your Infantry out like there was no tomorrow. And the AI build recons like there was no tomorrow with your hack.
Well, it was intended mostly for Vs so I didn't really care if it broke the War Room or Campaign as long as it didn't crash and was still completable. <_< Besides, more of a challenge for Fogel and Crew :p
Tee hee hee
Especially if the powers aren't gamebreakers like Max Blast or Snakebite, unless your opponent is stupid. She needs something to pack a punch, but that's exactly what she lacks (but she is a special ops, so that is alright - as long as she haves a good capture phase ).
Her punch is her SCOP, it's still brutal. Played right you can snatch up a ton of contested properties. And her COP got a buff. Mechs didn't take a hit at all in the defence stakes so they're still a robust and reliable source of damage.
It isn't a punch against a good player, and still only with FoW, what means Sonja is a massive counter against her. You can't nab properties if they're all occupied. Sami can't clear them effectively when occupied with Mechs. 80%-90% isn't enough for her Md.Tanks, Neotanks and Bombers. She can't reach the 100%, with her big units. But, she also fails with her mechs. 55% × 1.9 = 104%. : 1.3 (terrain defense) = 80%.

That means she needs at least three mechs to capture a single property. When guarded with a big unit even more. And worse: the opponent haves a good chance in recapturing it within about four days if the main force is still alive.

When you use Victory March to simply clear out the battlefield and to capture maybe just a single property, it works better because you do massive damage to almost anything, but if you do too much damage, you get mauled by your opponent's SCOP.
Also the powers in AW2 charge slower than in AWDS. Double Time is the worst CO power ingame due to this, together with your Max Force.
Except they're generally not - Max still hits like a truck (And hits high defence areas harder than AW2 standard, plus will reliably OHK soldier meatshields now) and Sami's COP is still exceptional (Lets Mechs beat artillery, and puts the hurt on other soldiers.)
Those soldiers are something called guarded. Next turn you get shot by the Indirects behind, because you can't OHKO the meatshields unless you have a Drake / Olaf / Hawke teammate who just used his SCOP.
Sami's SCOP is the least versatile ingame, and the instant capture is even more opponent-dependant than Hyper Upgrade, Samurai Spirit or Counter Break. The instant capture is very good, but at the same time an epic fail. The only thing that always help is the movement & firepower boost. And even THAT won't help always.
Something tells me you're just not using the power right - it requires setup and timing but played right it's quite a coup de grace.
No. I could use the SCOP earlier, on my last PC.
But now the AI finds a counter against it. And you can't capture occupied properties. I use it to clear out the battlefield rather than capture properties. Because if I capture properties, the AI will take them back within a week; the attack will be more expensive for me than for the opponent, over time, especially because some expensive units are needed to clear Md. and Neotanks from property's, and you need Bombers or some of your own to do so; Indirects will rarely work, except when your opponent is a dumbass anyway. Victory March is extremely powerful against stupid opponents, but once players are getting better, Victory March is getting weaker... because I can counter Sami's SCOP extremely well and render it useless whatever the opponent is planning. Often I have a recon Skirmish Screen on my part of the map, and many properties occupied, so everything will be safe for capturing, and if not, I can recapture it within moments. I play Fog only, in Vs. against AI's.
Without Fog, Sami haves a disadvantage because your opponent can see which properties are in danger and which aren't.
Also I find a Victory March bug, the infantry doesn't get the movement-type-change. In Double Time it works fine, but in Victory March it fails.
That's working as intended.
Ehh...
Victory March
- Foot Soldiers have no moment penalties over terrain in any weather
- Foot Soldiers can capture any property in a single day regardless of HP
- Foot Soldiers Movement is increased by 2 spaces
- Foot Soldiers gain +70% Offence (190%)
- Direct units gain +10% Offence (100%)
- Direct units gain +10% Defence (110%)
- Indirect units gain +10 Offence (110%)
- Indirect units gain +10% Defence (110%)
Change your starting post.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by Xenesis » Fri May 08, 2009 2:07 am

True. I tested it again, and I found a VERY stupid mistake, however, it was my own
Tough the damage the Bombers did was more than 190%. 223% > 246% without Andy's COP.
That is 198/260 (!). With the new defense, it should be somewhat lower, but 190% offense isn't true.
It haves to be true .
Ah right, I forgot the default boost and Lash works that way. With anything else, you just add but for Lash the firepower she gets is (Terrain Stars*5)*110%

My mistake.
Well, some Faqs say it is 150/190 during SCOP. And I doesn't notice a firepower raise during SCOP. My artillery still survived a Mech at 2 HP during the scop, what means no 180/190 stats during SCOP.
I've confirmed those stats so many times that my brain is bleeding. It's 180/190. Either they changed it in the Euro version, you've got a bad dump or you've changed something. I modified that particular assembly a dozen times to get it to do what I want in BH2. Trust me, it's a Pain in the arse. <_<;
Kanbei is good. On Max, Max force doesn't have much of an effect, aside of the movement. I don't use the COP often, except when te opponent's CO ask for movement (Grit, Sami, Kanbei). His SCOP is better, but, like Sami, you get mauled by your opponent the turn after you used it, altough somewhat less as Sami.
That's a problem inherent to AW2 as a whole. Unless you get massive defence boosts, after using a COP/SCOP is the best time to strike because your opponent gets the least advantage.
You need 4 HP to complete a 2-day capture... ^^ So even 120/120 will hurt her capturing, while making her mechs somewhat powerful. She needs at least 120/150 to complete a 2 day capture when interrupted by a recon.
Oh right, stupid rounding. <_<;
It isn't a punch against a good player, and still only with FoW, what means Sonja is a massive counter against her. You can't nab properties if they're all occupied. Sami can't clear them effectively when occupied with Mechs. 80%-90% isn't enough for her Md.Tanks, Neotanks and Bombers. She can't reach the 100%, with her big units. But, she also fails with her mechs. 55% × 1.9 = 104%. : 1.3 (terrain defense) = 80%.
Except for the fact that she's even better than in standard AW2 because everyone on cities is now taking 0.77 damage, compared to 0.7 compared to standard AW2. Unless you're telling me that in AW2 Victory March is horrendously underpowered. <_<;

I didn't modify the power at all. It's still amazing.
That means she needs at least three mechs to capture a single property. When guarded with a big unit even more. And worse: the opponent haves a good chance in recapturing it within about four days if the main force is still alive.
If you use three mechs to destroy something like a tank/md tank on a property, capture it and then they capture it back 4 days later, you've just created a 16,000G income gap at minimum. O_o

Every city you capture under Victory march will create a 4k income gap assuming that the opponent recaptures the property instantly.

I'm not sure why you're complaining.
When you use Victory March to simply clear out the battlefield and to capture maybe just a single property, it works better because you do massive damage to almost anything, but if you do too much damage, you get mauled by your opponent's SCOP.
You're probably not timing it right then? The only CO that can counter-capture retaliate is Kanbei, but even he takes 2 days plus with the def change you can tink him now.
Those soldiers are something called guarded. Next turn you get shot by the Indirects behind, because you can't OHKO the meatshields unless you have a Drake / Olaf / Hawke teammate who just used his SCOP.
That's what the movement boost is for. It lets you, you know hit units that are out of range behind their meatshields. And Max's AA and Recons are guaranteed to OHK infantry, and are pretty reliable against mechs.
But now the AI finds a counter against it. And you can't capture occupied properties. I use it to clear out the battlefield rather than capture properties. Because if I capture properties, the AI will take them back within a week; the attack will be more expensive for me than for the opponent, over time, especially because some expensive units are needed to clear Md. and Neotanks from property's, and you need Bombers or some of your own to do so; Indirects will rarely work, except when your opponent is a dumbass anyway.
If it takes a week for them to capture back then you're up 14k per property you captured from them. Your CO Power has just given you a free pair of tanks compared to the opponent. (Most competent opponents don't use Neotanks and use Mds Rarely anyhow)
Change your starting post.
Woo copy and paste error.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by ThunderWalker » Fri May 08, 2009 4:28 am

Well, note that my posts are more or less applying to the big maps made in the design room (20×30) ^^ .
Xenesis wrote:
Well, some Faqs say it is 150/190 during SCOP. And I doesn't notice a firepower raise during SCOP. My artillery still survived a Mech at 2 HP during the scop, what means no 180/190 stats during SCOP.
I've confirmed those stats so many times that my brain is bleeding. It's 180/190. Either they changed it in the Euro version, you've got a bad dump or you've changed something. I modified that particular assembly a dozen times to get it to do what I want in BH2. Trust me, it's a Pain in the arse. <_<;
I don't even want to know :P
Kanbei is good. On Max, Max force doesn't have much of an effect, aside of the movement. I don't use the COP often, except when te opponent's CO ask for movement (Grit, Sami, Kanbei). His SCOP is better, but, like Sami, you get mauled by your opponent the turn after you used it, altough somewhat less as Sami.
That's a problem inherent to AW2 as a whole. Unless you get massive defence boosts, after using a COP/SCOP is the best time to strike because your opponent gets the least advantage.
Yeah, but low defense units, Mechs and Indirects, are hit pretty hard with THAT.
It isn't a punch against a good player, and still only with FoW, what means Sonja is a massive counter against her. You can't nab properties if they're all occupied. Sami can't clear them effectively when occupied with Mechs. 80%-90% isn't enough for her Md.Tanks, Neotanks and Bombers. She can't reach the 100%, with her big units. But, she also fails with her mechs. 55% × 1.9 = 104%. : 1.3 (terrain defense) = 80%.
Except for the fact that she's even better than in standard AW2 because everyone on cities is now taking 0.77 damage, compared to 0.7 compared to standard AW2. Unless you're telling me that in AW2 Victory March is horrendously underpowered. <_<;
Everyone is better, because Sami haves the lower defense too. But yeah, it's right what you're saying. I don't use Victory march that often, except when I already have an army of bombers to clear the way to the HQ :P Getting THAT against an human player, and sometimes also against the AI, is a pain, though.
I didn't modify the power at all. It's still amazing.
It is. However, Md.s, Neo's and especially indirects and bombers are very good against her, and infantry works well too.
That means she needs at least three mechs to capture a single property. When guarded with a big unit even more. And worse: the opponent haves a good chance in recapturing it within about four days if the main force is still alive.
If you use three mechs to destroy something like a tank/md tank on a property, capture it and then they capture it back 4 days later, you've just created a 16,000G income gap at minimum. O_o

Every city you capture under Victory march will create a 4k income gap assuming that the opponent recaptures the property instantly.

I'm not sure why you're complaining.
That's true, but you need very many mechs, and because you haven't a capture advantage, the opponent can have enough reserves to destroy ALL mechs, and also the indirects behind. If you keep the indirects farther away to protect the mechs, you'll lose them, unless you have another mech group ready to protect your indirects, but this will be probably more expensive than a pair of Neo's.

Also, the opponent can prevent you from setting up Victory March with some infantry hiding into forests around his/her properties.

Well, I know the AI decides to ignores the mechs and chase your indirects instead, while surrounding your mechs with his remaing force. It will cost you about a few tons in the worst case scenario, and that's enough to lose, even against the AI.
When you use Victory March to simply clear out the battlefield and to capture maybe just a single property, it works better because you do massive damage to almost anything, but if you do too much damage, you get mauled by your opponent's SCOP.
You're probably not timing it right then? The only CO that can counter-capture retaliate is Kanbei, but even he takes 2 days plus with the def change you can tink him now.
True, his def should be 240 on properties, what is about 60%. Possible to beat, but you get wiped out in the counterattack - I tried :P
Those soldiers are something called guarded. Next turn you get shot by the Indirects behind, because you can't OHKO the meatshields unless you have a Drake / Olaf / Hawke teammate who just used his SCOP.
That's what the movement boost is for. It lets you, you know hit units that are out of range behind their meatshields. And Max's AA and Recons are guaranteed to OHK infantry, and are pretty reliable against mechs.
True, but I'd simply forget the infantry walls, I wall with Mechs. And those can't be OHKO'd by Recons.
Kanbei puts the hurt on him, but that's allright I suppose :P It might be better balanced than it looks, anyway.
But now the AI finds a counter against it. And you can't capture occupied properties. I use it to clear out the battlefield rather than capture properties. Because if I capture properties, the AI will take them back within a week; the attack will be more expensive for me than for the opponent, over time, especially because some expensive units are needed to clear Md. and Neotanks from property's, and you need Bombers or some of your own to do so; Indirects will rarely work, except when your opponent is a dumbass anyway.
If it takes a week for them to capture back then you're up 14k per property you captured from them. Your CO Power has just given you a free pair of tanks compared to the opponent. (Most competent opponents don't use Neotanks and use Mds Rarely anyhow)
Against Sami big units work best. Especially Neotanks and Bombers are very hard to beat for her. Md. Tanks will be destroyed, as long as the mechs get the first strike. However, never forget, Sami gets hit on an extreme way by the attack after Victory March, even when you succeed, because your forces are distracted (and if not, the map haves the cities clumped up too much, but then Victory March won't succeed, except if these properties are the front line, but a good opponent can prevent this).

Victory March might be alright as it is, but it is quite easy to abuse on large maps If your opponent fail in doing this, it's still effective, but I don't use since the AI ( :shock: ) made a tactic to bust Victory March, especially on large maps with lots of forests, scattering everywhere (like Factory Blues). It was in the orginal AW2.
-
How to do:
Keep Indirects, both Rockets and Artillery, hiding everywhere around your properties. Tanks on your properties.
Let Sami gets those cities (with a Mech guarding it) with her SCOP, then advance and search to kill her indirects with yours, ignoring the soldiers, maybe targeting one with an indirect which can't hit Sami's Indirects. The second turn after she used Victory March, crush her soldiers with any reserves you got and with the indirects which can't target higher priority units, while killing the rest of her indirects with your assault force. Then you can recapture the properties she captured. Say, this will take five days. She will have 10.000 gold for every property, so if she captured five of those, she gets 50,000 gold. However, Sami will have lost about 150,000 on Mechs, Md. Tanks, and Indirects, while the opponent should lose 50-60,000 or less if played right.
That was what the AI did to beat me, and it worked pretty well, because I lost. It works very well if you're Sonja, but anyone can do, save Max. Sami gets overshadowed by Grit when using this, because they both need more Indirects because a firepower penalty on directs is a fairly big disadvantage. Not that much in a brawl, but this tactic relies more on the OHKO's on dug in Indirects. Grit gets his Indirects to make up for this. Max will fail, because his lower range Indirects.
The Sami opponent can counter this with another Mech group to put in front of her indirects, but this can be expensive considering the main force will collapse no matter what. Also, the time it takes to set up that, will make Victory March a 20-Star SCOP - Sami might used it twice because it's such a pain to get everything in place, because you can going aggressive after everything is already set up. Also, the speed of Mechs won't help Sami either, it makes it just only easier to pull this off.
Your problem is getting enough indirects, the same amount of Tanks or Mechs as forward properties, and an assault group at the same time. But since you have the same amount of properties as Sami (in this mod), it won't be all that difficult, because Sami needs about the same money for her attack force to make Victory March working, or maybe even more. That means more Indirects for you, and also more money to spend on some tanks and mechs to annoy your Sami opponent. Also note that this tactic will require less forests than to pull off a suprise Victory March against this trick (Sami needs 2.5 times more forests than properties she wants to capture, you need about six, but more are always better (to hide the assault force), altough same goes for Sami), and if Victory March isn't a suprise, Sami fails anyway, because you can see it coming from miles away and guard whatever you need to guard.

The problem with this is that Sami charges Victory March again within a few days, but she can't use it if everything is crippled or destroyed. Just make sure that the infantry units are wiped out, and you deal the major damage in the turn directly after her first Victory March.
-
The only counter Sami can use is just go ahead and attack anything, as fast as possible after you charged Victory March, preferably next turn, while Sami needs to keep some Mech guards in front of her Indirects.
-
However, since THAT, I don't use Victory March anymore to destroy the property guards and simply capture those (save the HQ offcourse, but that's guarded by Neotanks or Md. Tanks, and some Indirects as long as the AI isn't on the defensive).
Because I didn't expect such timed ambush from the AI, the AI could thake me by suprise, killing six rockets and ten mechs in two days (the Mechs can't escape, they're trapped in rocket range). It is abusing Sami's SCOP. Any SCOP can be abused by an ambush, but Sami, Max and Adder are hit much harder because they will advance mainly direct units for the first strike.

Victory March isn't underpowered, until your opponent realises the trick above ^^ . Tough expensive, both players will need about 150.000 gold for their attack forces., but on large maps it isn't that much. If air is available, it is going to hammer Sami, if navy is available it will help her (Battleships are very expensive, and reefs to hide them in are rare).

On small maps Victory March works fine, but it is a pain to build up.
Last edited by ThunderWalker on Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by ThunderWalker » Sat May 16, 2009 12:42 am

Tested a crumpets and I playes dozens of game with this hack.

Sami isn't very useful anymore (more playtesting didn't change this), unless when you want to give yourself a weakness (and to beat Risky Vale (fairly easy)).
And Victory March is opponent-dependant. It's a very good SCOP, but it is a fail if you haven't already an advantage, unlike other powers. Even when not getting trapped (mentioned above). The HQ and other important properties are always occupied. You'll have to build three mechs to beat one mech sitting on a property while still able to capture it that turn. Result: You'll need to keep that property three days to start making profit. And no, a competent opponent will prevent that. Victory March is the worst (S)COP comparing to the star costs. Black Wave does often a lot more damage than Victory March. Hawke's COP !!!
Victory March is just better to blow the crap out of your opponent; before you can use it "effectively", you might have charged it again! Or the capture the HQ/crumpets of properties of a noob opponent straight away.

Anything is balanced, but the things mentioned before downloading the game still apply. Sami is too weak, and Grit's D2D too, while his COP is beyond broken.

Also, do something about that Bomber firepower. Like 90% against Md. Tanks?! They were already broken in AW2 and 1, and aren't nerfed. Even worse, I find even Sami's, Drake's or Grit's bombers OHKO'ing almost anything. Hell?!
Last edited by ThunderWalker on Sat May 16, 2009 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by Xenesis » Sat May 16, 2009 1:19 am

Uh

Bombers were one of the worst units in the game in AW1/AW2. While the stats are okay, the cost to firepower is hideously bad and the counter-units are either 1/3 the price or still cheaper, but outrange it by 2 and kill it in one shot.

You only ever build bombers because you're already winning by a major margin in AW2 and want to clean the opponent up. The only unit that's generally less worthwhile is the Missile or the Cruiser.

I'd like to note that Bombers are pretty much even better in Days of Ruin than this (Fighter does 65% to it, it's only 20k and vetboosts give it Atk/Def) and even then it's viable, if selectively so.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by ThunderWalker » Sat May 16, 2009 2:01 am

I use those to tear chokepoints apart, rarely to mop up. They mop up after they already done their job :P

In DoR Bombers are re broken ^^ .
Last edited by ThunderWalker on Sat May 16, 2009 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by Xenesis » Sat May 16, 2009 2:06 am

Unless you're playing the AI they fail at chokepoints simply because all it takes is one AA hit to cripple them beyond any worth whatsoever. (Base is 75% BTW)

You need like 3-4 bombers in a chokepoint and the enemy can basically counter it for 20k at most by building one fighter or a pair of AAs - with all the meatshields they can do nothing to the chokepoint without you losing about three times as much money as you spent.

The damage buff was to allow them to actually OHK things.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by ThunderWalker » Sat May 16, 2009 2:32 am

Well, it's not bad that bombers are powerful. As long as they can't get OHKO'd, but also can't OHKO Md. tanks D2D.

Another idea, It isn't necessary, but still an idea :mrgreen:
Change the Md. Tank and Neotank to something like their DoR counterparts. Neotanks, the War Tanks, still have their 6 movement, but low defense against Bombers and Battleships in comparison to Md. Tanks.

Edit, 12-6-2009, 22:25 [GMT +1].
Today, I managed to beat The Final Battle HC with this hack activated. Well, It broke the campaign somewhat, like you said, Xen'.
A lot of missions were easier to do, while other missions were harder. I've made my own difficulty ratings.
I just mention the changes, not the strategies, because HPD made already a strategy FAQ.

Border Skirmish: ***** ****
Has become harder. Flak has been toned up noticable, while Sami has been toned down even more than Flak has been toned up. This mission is now on par with Hot Pursuit & Great Sea Battle. Flak's luck will destroy either your speed or technique, or both if you're not careful (and you'll might lose). Advance slower than you should do without the hack - keep your units away from the bridges if Flak's Barbaric Blow is charged - the AI tend to be lucky in this mission (+70-100%). I got a 256 A-rank. I lost the first time because I used the same strategy as without the hack... :|
Orange Dawn: ****
It will take somewhat longer due to Flak's higher luck. Max have normal indirect strength, what will mean OHKO's on those annoying infantry during Powers with the battleships you used to destroy the laser.
Andy's time: **
Easiest HC Mission. Get a Bomber by day 8 and go for that cannon.
Mountain Ops: *****
Both Sami and Lash are been toned down. Somewhat more difficult than before tough.
Sea For All: ***
Remember Hyper Repair will increase also your firepower. Somewhat easier than before.
POW Rescue: ****
Both CO's are somewhat better. Strategy won't change, so does difficulty.
Test Of Time: *****
Just use Hyper Upgrade after Barbaric Blow. The mission will keep being easy,
Liberation: ***** **
Somewhat easier than Border Skirmish. Just keep in mind meatshield won't last long, but with Andy and Max it's easier than before. Sami vs Flak is NOT a good idea.

Tanks: ****
Grit lost his extra range during D2D and SCOP. However, it isn't much more difficult. The S-Rank might be harder, but the mission itself isn't.
Reclamation: ***** *
Colin has now higher prices and thus lower unit amounts. With a balanced Colin this mission is more difficult. Also Colin's units have lower defense, and that will result into more OHKO's.
Toy Box: ***
A better Olaf and a weaker Lash... Nuff' Said. One of the easiest missions, even to perfect S-rank.
Nature Walk: ***** ***
Grit's lower range will hurt; you can't take out all the units you should normally take out on day one. However, it won't matter. I won in 8 days. Easier than OS Border Skirmish anyway.
Neotanks ?! : *****
Use Olaf. And this mission is easier than before.
T Minus 15 : ***** *
Both Olaf and Andy are been toned up, but Flak's too. Same difficulty as before, but Andy's Bomber's can OHKO everything. Don't care if Andy's Bombers survive, you'll always lose one due to the extra missile range. If you use all Bombers at the same time, you can even destroy that artillery. I managed to rout Flak before capturing the eight city...
Two Week Test: ***** ***
One of the hardest missions in HC, and your Technique rating should be very low, but it's still possible to win this missions. But I didn't lost the first time like in Border Skirmish...
Factory Blues: *****
The team won't matter. Just get a Bomber and hit that seam (even Sami's, Grit's or Colin's Bomber will OHKO). I won at day 16 due to crappy AI movement. Moving a fighter away from a bomber without anti air defenses and some other stupid actions... yeah right. I used Olaf (Blizzard WILL hurt Lash while your units have a good defence during that turn) and Sami (higher capture rate will give you that western airport).

Silo Scramble: *****
Well, not much to say. Kanbei is weaker than before, having 120/120 units.
Show Stopper: ***** **
Sonja has been toned down a LOT. But it's still an easy mission like before (without the hack it's barely worth five stars). Easy 280-pts S-Rank.
Sensei's return: ***** *
Sensei has been toned down, but not enough. He's the broken bastard in this game. It's still somewhat more difficult than before... if you can call five/six stars difficult, that is.
Duty & Honor: ***** ***** *
Shut up. Nuff' Said. I dare DragonFogel to beat this one with a perfect S-rank. It's more difficult than any other mission with this hack.
A Mirror Darkly: *****
Altough Sonja has been toned down and it's a lot more difficult to see all units, it won't matter, I got a perfect S on this mission.
Foul Play: ****
You'll get your bombers twice as fast in the northern section because they OHKO pipes. Well, that can just only mean one thing... Easiest YC mission.
Sea Of Hope: *****
Sami will be actually better than without the hack on this mission. Because Infantry aren't used on this mission, and she is "predeployed". Also her powers give her a minor offense boost, but that helps in OHKO'ing. It saved me a turn :)
Kanbei has been weakened, but that won't really matter as long as you use Sami's B-Ships right :)
The Hunts End: ***** *
Bombers OHKO that freakin' seam. Keep in mind that the southern CO will have some problems, at least more as without the hack. But stay calm, it's nothing to panic about :)

Sinking Feeling: ***** ***
The AI was stupid, and couldn't pierce my Tank wall like before. I beated this mission in the first try - earlier I couldn't beat it ??? !!!. Wtf? Jess haves now normal infantry and the new defense formula hurts Lash, so this mission is somewhat easier with the hack.
Danger x9 : ***** *****
Ugh. The hardest mission I could beat (after six times trying), followed up by Border Skirmish, Great Sea Battle, Final Front and Hot Pursuit.
Sea Fortress: ****
Not difficult. Eagle's Battleships and Cruisers are now closer to normal strength, while his 8 HP bombers can still OHKO those minicannons without using a power. Easier as before.
To the Rescue: ***** ***
Somewhat harder than before, but I managed to keep Sami alive with a six HP Mech, capturing the southern airport :) However, the boosts aren't noticable on this mission. Maybe it's just the randomness of the AI.
Rain of Fire: ***** *
Not all that difficult. Easier than before. Just keep in mind your infantry will die faster, like in the other missions.
Navy vs Air: *****
Easier, due to the better cruisers you'll have.
Drake's Dilemma: ***** ***
One of the harder HC Missions. But don't worry, it's still possible. The lowered movement of Drake's navy won't matter all that much :) Kanbei will have a harder time, anyway.
Great Sea Battle: ***** ****
Good, it's a LOT more difficult than before. Unlike Normal Campaign, Victory March is more powerful than Hyper Upgrade here. I used it twice to capture just a single property, once for the base next to the northernmost cannon, and once for the westernmost BH city south of that cannon. Eagle and Kanbei will do the rest. With some luck, I could get a bomber in the northwest destroying the seam at day 55.

Hot Pursuit: ***** ****
Not much has been changed. A balanced Sturm will make this mission easier, but the first Meteor will come really fast. But if you'll get Artillery and Rockets close to the pipes to protect Andy in the middle, you'll stay alive. And Bombers OHKO those Cannons. Going with Mechs instead of Infantry to block WILL help.
Final Front: ***** ***
Easier than before. Use the same strategy, and blow the crap outta Sturm using Eagle in the middle, Andy in the left and Sensei in the right. I'd end with ALL properties north of the cannons, while having the eastern part of the map cleared of enemy units. I made a stupid mistake (Eagle's bomber was hit by the western Cannon (the eastern Cannon was destroyed), but Sensei's Bomber could finish the job just as well.

Edit: 20-06-2009; Fixed a LOT of grammar mistakes in all my posts here. Too many. The most stupid one will be my SIG for the next month. :o :lol:
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by Sniffit II » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:34 pm

Gah, damn it... I was about to try this patch out for myself and then my computer antivirus thingy took offense at VBA...
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by ThunderWalker » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:40 pm

I don't even have an antivirus. Because they're annoying and slow everything down. And attack Windows :geshrug:

I've played about 60 games with Sami & Grit to test their weaknesses.

:samids: 120/120 + capture rate Infantry & Mechs. If I am going to use a Mech Flood, I use Flak or Kanbei instead of Sami.
Victory March is good on small maps, but an epic fail at large maps, or when FoW is not present. She's relying even more on FoW than Sonja. She's hit quite hard by other changes, like the damage formula and the lower def of infantry.
If I may choose which CO I should face in my next battle, I choose Sami.
:gritds: 130/100 Indirects D2D, remove one range during COP. Otherwise his COP is broken.
:colinds: He should have 90/95 stats, but he haves 90/100 stats. I found this out when battling him with Sami and Grit. A Md. Tank does still 94% to his Recons, like they do to anyone else's (save Kanbei, offcourse).
:senseids: Broken D2D. Without the copter-boost, he's balanced. He's the broken bastard in this game. Give him some kind of weakness.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by Sniffit II » Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:49 pm

Well, I've achieved a grand victory over my computer... I can use VBA now... Now to test out the hack, and maybe sometime soon, start fiddling around to see what goes where.

Edit: I've just done the OS part of the campaign, and it's obviously a while since I played, as my tactics on the factory mission incurred more losses than I'd hoped. I don't know if I applied the cleanser patch wrong or what (because I definitely applied the damned thing) but Flak's missiles were firing on my rockets and infantry (albeit not for much damage) but is this meant to happen on the hack?

Other than that, all I've seen so far playing it, it behaves as it should... and I'm glad to see Flak still has some of his genius lines.

but still... WTF? Did I do something wrong?
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by Xenesis » Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:12 am

Nope, that's working as intended.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by ThunderWalker » Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:42 am

Xenesis wrote:Nope, that's working as intended.
Yes. Abuse it at will, I say, I've played that mission too, and with a perfect S.

Capture anything in sight! Sami might be the best choice because Flak isn't all that smart. Prevent Flak from capturing the southwestern properties, and capture them yourself. Build a Bomber and blow the seam before day 15.

Note: If you've savestates at VBA, you don't need to apply the Cleanser Patch. Just activate one of the savestates and no technical errors will occur :P .
That was a thing I found because I am absent-minded as hell :P
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by Sniffit II » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:23 am

I think there's another bug (if no-one's already pointed it out) Subs don't seem to be diving properly (leastways in campaign).

Edit: What seems to happen is they'll dive, and as soon as a turn ends, they just pop right up again.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by Xenesis » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:38 am

Yeah, it's a known bug.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by Sniffit II » Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:10 am

Ah, kk. Cool.

Sonja can also remove FOW when the her power ends if you've already used it once. It's kinda useful on the adder mission.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by Xenesis » Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:30 am

Did you save and reload during the mission?

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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by Sniffit II » Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:51 pm

Nope.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by Xenesis » Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:53 pm

Turns out there's a whole bunch of typos in that code. <_<;

Hopefully I've fixed them.
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Re: Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.0

Post by Sniffit II » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:05 pm

haha kk, and one bug that shouldn't be too hard to fix, Hachi's prices are over 300%...
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