Advance Wars 2 - Balance Hack - Version 2.1

Discussion of hacking, editing and developments in Advance Wars games.
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DTaeKim
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Post by DTaeKim » Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:37 am

Ah. Do you suppose if we could mess with the multiplier, Gold Rush would jsut have a lower modifier then?
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x0_000
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Post by x0_000 » Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:41 am

Probably, yeah.
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Xenesis
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Post by Xenesis » Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:43 am

I actually prefer just lowering the cost, to be honest. It's not stackable at all, and while both powers are self feeding, it means you don't get exponential growth.
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Post by GaroNinja » Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:30 pm

It'll be even until combat starts. Then Colin can start spamming his CO power for more units and an economic, military and capturing advantage or wait for his SCOP and blast things around.

It's like Hachi says in his shop..do you get more units, or save up for his Super?


I disagree. 90/90 units, especially infantry, will make taking the middle of the map much harder for Colin than anyone else. It'll take a while for him to get his first Gold Rush, and it'll take longer for the new units to actually get into the battle, so it won't factor in right when combat starts, meaning I could actually see Colin having LESS properties than the enemy.

:edit: Aw, who am I kidding? Everyone knows that Orange Star will always have more properties when it comes to the middle ._.

Also, I don't see Power of Money being so hot for him, as it would require you to either; a.) Purchase units at the less than optimal price of 90%, or b.) Store up all your money and hope that all of your 90/90 units aren't dead before you can put your +a bajillion% attack power to any use. And if your initial units can survive while you've been charging money and stars for 3-4 turns... just imagine what the battlefield would have looked like had you used Gold Rush and bought more units to reinforce them! Power of Money strikes me as a power that's only effective while you're winning, as opposed to, say, Hyper Upgrade, which even after you've weakened it, is still very much capable of winning you games you would have lost any other way.

Really, the only way I see Colin standing a chance like that is by banking on the fact that 2 star funds related powers will always be completely broken...

Also, dropping the multiplier would completely screw up double gold rush. For example, with 10000g income, using DGR, saving up a turn with 1.2x multiplier would make for...

10,000g

End turn

20,000g -Gold Rush-
24,000g

End turn

34,000g -Gold Rush-
40,800g.

That's a total income increase of 1.36x, which is really not that unfair for 3 turns of waiting and about 5-6 stars spent. By comparison, with the old Gold Rush, Colin would have 60,000g, twice as much as he'd have normally.

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I was going to post a "Why'd you buy when you could rent?" but then I remembered Austrailia is a gimped continent where people build careers on raping crocodiles and there's no places to rent stuff. - Marsillo

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Xenesis
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Post by Xenesis » Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:01 pm

But then, taking in Colin's default 80% price, he ends up with the equivalent funds of about 51,000G with any other CO....

The most I could see doing is re-upping him to 90/100 Stats, but even then, that's a pretty damn good deal.

Basically, as his CO power as is, his money's worth 10% more than another CO's daily. His COP makes his money worth 25% more than a normal CO's.

Compared to his daily purchase price, he gets 20% more purchase power.
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Post by GaroNinja » Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:12 pm

Xenesis wrote:But then, taking in Colin's default 80% price, he ends up with the equivalent funds of about 51,000G with any other CO....
Fair enough, but his units are also worth less than their equivalent. The idea is to make it so that the two factors balance each other out.
Xenesis wrote: The most I could see doing is re-upping him to 90/100 Stats, but even then, that's a pretty damn good deal.
Personally, I'd prefer that to 90/90 units for 80%. 80% costs are too broken to balance, I think; He'll either be useless, or overpowered.
Xenesis wrote: Basically, as his CO power as is, his money's worth 10% more than another CO's daily. His COP makes his money worth 25% more than a normal CO's.
Well, it's actually 11% and 33%, respectively ;). But then again, his units are worth about 20% less than another COs units, so it's not as wonderful as it sounds.
Xenesis wrote: Compared to his daily purchase price, he gets 20% more purchase power.
Yes. Yes he does. Although I really don't like having a temporary Gold Rush, as it kind of ruins the cool synergy with Power of Money. A pity that Gold Rush as is is worth about 4 or 5 stars... It would really help if we could change the amount of gold it gives...

Theres Advance Wars hentai? Who the Hell would draw that? There are far better things to draw Hentai of. - Marsillo
Like me. - Blame Game

I was going to post a "Why'd you buy when you could rent?" but then I remembered Austrailia is a gimped continent where people build careers on raping crocodiles and there's no places to rent stuff. - Marsillo

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Post by Bog » Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:08 am

Hm, I also think Jess should be nerfed slightly. Her refueling COPs makes her navy and airforce actually stronger than Eagle and Drake. Maybe the refuel part of the COP should add 50% of the fuel tank's capacity; not a straight fill-up.

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Post by Mr Dev » Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:27 am

Impossible, as of yet... >_>

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Kireato

Post by Kireato » Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:54 am

@Xen

Hachi: Ah? 5 stars? Still, it's weak.
Concerning the lack of luck... For a 50 base damage, Colin and Hachi have the same average. More makes it lean on Hachi's side. Less on Colin's.
Colin has 90/100 units. That is IMO, worthy of 90% cost. (Because he has 90% efficiency compared to a 100/100 CO).

IMO, it adds something to his style of play without making him that weak. And he has quite handy powers.

And seriously, you should just have his super reduce his cost to 50%. As long as reinforcements come from his base, it's easier to deal with and gives him something.

Colin: Oh no, my math is not flawed. You've shown yourself how Von Bolt's stat give in an edge over specialty COs. In other words, 110/110 stats beat 120/100 stats.

Indeed, Von Bolt has 121% efficiency.

In truth, 120/100 should warrant for 120% cost.

However, we all know advance wars doesn't work solely based on stats. Let's imagine a map where each player have their base and nothing to capture out of it. Or another map which is small and in which reinforcements come fast to the front. Can you deny Kanbei's overwhelming advantage?

Kanbei was nearly broken in AW2 (and made up with comparatively sucky powers). 144% efficiency is acceptable in AWDS because most COs have bonuses superior to their weaknesses. It is also acceptable because Kanbei has a disadvantage that doesn't appear so easilly in the stats: a sucky capturing phase with the unablity to tech up and reinforce easily. He needs his power.

On the other hand, Colin doesn't need a bonus. He can do with units which are worth their cost because his advantage lies in how well he expands and reinforces his lines (which really could hardly hold without...).

And regardless your logic is idiotic. What you're saying is basically: 200% cost for 200/200 units is perfectly balanced.

As for his COP, I never even mentioned anything like 50% cost for 2 stars. Barter is worth 3 stars as far as I know... Additionally, he's churning out 90/90 units. In other words: nowhere near as strong as Hachi...

Oh, I get it. No, I meant have Colin's COP worth 3 stars, reduce his cost to 50% and let it be called Gold Rush. Or are you against changing the MGR attitude?

Sturm: The difference between Sturm and Jess is that Sturm has no COP. He's SUPPOSED to be superior day to day.

I'd rather have a 120/80 Sturm... It makes more sense to me. Instead of having superior defence for his capturing units, he has a very easy time using recons to harass the opponent. He's balanced in the air, and he's still weaker due to luck and terrain defence.

And and I'd rather have a 1.25 multiplier for GR... But I can only manage 2* or 3* (and 1.5* with rom hacking)

And I'd rather have 80% cost and 90/90 units because weaker units will make his money powers WAY less horrible to take on.

Xen @ Work

Post by Xen @ Work » Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:45 am

Hachi: Ah? 5 stars? Still, it's weak.
Concerning the lack of luck... For a 50 base damage, Colin and Hachi have the same average. More makes it lean on Hachi's side. Less on Colin's.
Colin has 90/100 units. That is IMO, worthy of 90% cost. (Because he has 90% efficiency compared to a 100/100 CO).

IMO, it adds something to his style of play without making him that weak. And he has quite handy powers.

And seriously, you should just have his super reduce his cost to 50%. As long as reinforcements come from his base, it's easier to deal with and gives him something.
I flat out refuse to lower it to 50% costs. No matter how I look at it, 50% costs is just sick. Especially for 5 stars.

Meh, and I don't really like the complete lack of luck or anything. Maybe +5 for 0-4 to allow a bit of wiggle, but no luck renders most cost effective battling kind of null..
Colin: Oh no, my math is not flawed. You've shown yourself how Von Bolt's stat give in an edge over specialty COs. In other words, 110/110 stats beat 120/100 stats.

[Snip]

And regardless your logic is idiotic. What you're saying is basically: 200% cost for 200/200 units is perfectly balanced.
It's only balanced within a certain range. Which is about 90% to 120%. Beyond that the units are either too weak for their cost, or the costs are too high to compete in numbers at all. And the other thing is that we're talking about AW2, not AWDS. The Strength > Weakness or Small Strength with no Weakness concept does not apply here. Most COs should be somewhere within the area of Weakness = Strength or (Like Max, Flak or Hawke), Weakness slightly over strength.
As for his COP, I never even mentioned anything like 50% cost for 2 stars. Barter is worth 3 stars as far as I know... Additionally, he's churning out 90/90 units. In other words: nowhere near as strong as Hachi...
Barter as is in AW2 is worth far more than 3 stars as far as I'm concerned. I'm not quite sure what you're thinking, but using the AW2 costs is basing your base on an extremely broken CO.

You know, the idea is to balance here, not give insanely powerful advantages for COs who we're supposed to be nerfing.
Oh, I get it. No, I meant have Colin's COP worth 3 stars, reduce his cost to 50% and let it be called Gold Rush. Or are you against changing the MGR attitude?
I've come to the conclusion that it's best to avoid twiddling with the CO power bars as much as possible. Hence why the latest update restored Hachi and Andy's bar lengths. There's not too much you could do with Lash however without inventing abilities to give her a 4 star CO power.
Sturm: The difference between Sturm and Jess is that Sturm has no COP. He's SUPPOSED to be superior day to day.

I'd rather have a 120/80 Sturm... It makes more sense to me. Instead of having superior defence for his capturing units, he has a very easy time using recons to harass the opponent. He's balanced in the air, and he's still weaker due to luck and terrain defence.
With a 120/80 Sturm, from experience, it's next to impossible to balance his Free terrain movement ability due to the fact that it synergises very well with high firepower. When I got to version 1.5, I just realised that fudge it, offence sturm isn't working.

In fact, I understand very well what IS was doing when they made Versus Sturm in AW1. Because, despite it's situationality, Free Terrain movement is a powerful ability. Which becomes wicked on a lot of maps with a firepower bonus.

Of course, some maps like say, Piston Dam have absolutely no use for this ability whatsoever. But that's like using Eagle in a Naval map, or Jess on an island map.

There will always be a degree of damn situationality. And perfect terrain movement in clear weather for a 5% loss of defence is a pretty good deal.

Anyhow, the Jess Vs Sturm comparison, of effective damage done, from 0 to 4 Terrain stars:
Sturm Vehicles Vs Jess Vehicles:
80%/72%/64%/56%/48% Vs 93%/82%/71%/60%/49% in overall effectiveness.

Soldiers
80%/72%/64%/56%/48% Vs 76%/67%/58%/49%/40%

Planes:
80% Vs 76%

Ships:
80%/72%/ - /56%/ - Vs 76%/67%/ - /49%/ -

As you can plainly see, 80/115% Sturm loses to Jess in the vehicle area by ~10%, and is quite superior to her in the non Vehicle areas. But as the Terrain increases, Jess's advantage becomes less and less till the point where it's only a 1% difference on the vehicle front, if somehow you got a mech Vs Tank on HQs or something.

The point is, it's not as weak as you seem to think it is, especially when Terrain has been thrown into the equation. Then consider that he gets the free terrain movement.

I dunno about you, but it looks reasonably balanced to me.

As for the No COP issue, It's far less of an issue when it's 6 stars, as you're not waiting an eternity to use it. It's an argument with 10 star Supers, but far less with 6 star ones.

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Kireato

Post by Kireato » Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:04 am

Xen is stalking us from work!

*has got to go to bed*

Concerning 5 star Barter. Is it that sick?
It's only balanced within a certain range. Which is about 90% to 120%. Beyond that the units are either too weak for their cost, or the costs are too high to compete in numbers at all. And the other thing is that we're talking about AW2, not AWDS. The Strength > Weakness or Small Strength with no Weakness concept does not apply here. Most COs should be somewhere within the area of Weakness = Strength or (Like Max, Flak or Hawke), Weakness slightly over strength.
... Yeah, it's only balanced into a certain range, but my method sure shows how strong some stats are.
As I said, 80% cost is fair for 90/90 stats. And can you not help but notice that some COs have stayed the same between AW2 and DS?

Do we have no weakness here? Has there ever been any situation where a CO couldn't get an advantage?

Barter as is in AW2 is worth far more than 3 stars as far as I'm concerned. I'm not quite sure what you're thinking, but using the AW2 costs is basing your base on an extremely broken CO.

You know, the idea is to balance here, not give insanely powerful advantages for COs who we're supposed to be nerfing.
Hey, it's barter for 90/90 units. Well, this has a lot to do with the fact I can't realize how powerful it is. I'm not seeing this as giving an insanely powerful advantage... How about 65% cost for 2 stars? That basically makes his funds worth 20% more for a turn?

No COP arguement is not an issue?

... Hawke gets his first power at 5 stars. And he's got a sizeable advantage without weakness.

How about a 100/100 Sturm? We have defence and offence freak. I just want some guy (like Ender) who moves well and makes meteors fall.
Meh, and I don't really like the complete lack of luck or anything. Maybe +5 for 0-4 to allow a bit of wiggle, but no luck renders most cost effective battling kind of null..
How so? Cost effective battling is using units which are strong against the enemy. High base damage. And he has lower costs...

arg gotta go.

Note: I'm making propositions. Also, anyone can play against a 90/100 80% cost Colin. It's his power which breaks him. So IMO, you are still going a bit far...

Xen @ Work

Post by Xen @ Work » Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:39 am

... Yeah, it's only balanced into a certain range, but my method sure shows how strong some stats are.
As I said, 80% cost is fair for 90/90 stats. And can you not help but notice that some COs have stayed the same between AW2 and DS?

Do we have no weakness here? Has there ever been any situation where a CO couldn't get an advantage?
Lesse. COs that have stayed the same:
Andy: A bit overpowered in AW2
Hachi: Broken'd
Grit: Overpowered in AW2
Colin: Broken'd
Adder: Balanced in AW2
Hawke: Balanced in AW2

Every other CO has been modified in some form for AWDS. I'm obviously ignoring the +10% firepower for CO powers change though. And it's not just a figure of 'Hey, their stats are the same', as there's also tags and new units to consider, etc. You know the drill.

In theory, it's fair to have those costs for those units. But in practice it doesn't quite work so well.
Hey, it's barter for 90/90 units. Well, this has a lot to do with the fact I can't realize how powerful it is. I'm not seeing this as giving an insanely powerful advantage... How about 65% cost for 2 stars? That basically makes his funds worth 20% more for a turn?

No COP arguement is not an issue?

... Hawke gets his first power at 5 stars. And he's got a sizeable advantage without weakness.

How about a 100/100 Sturm? We have defence and offence freak. I just want some guy (like Ender) who moves well and makes meteors fall.
Barter is insanely powerful for several reasons:
1)It's permanent. You buy units on the cheap. You keep them until they die.
2)It's self feeding. The power lets you get more units to lose which lets you get more units which gets you more .... [feedback loop]. The only other self feeding CO power is Gold Rush, which self feeds both it's charge and it's effect.
3)It allows you to make a lot of money. Buy units at 50% cost. Get them slightly damaged, like via Black Wave or something. Join them. You've just made 40% of that unit's cost in profit, or pretty close to it.
4)It's just a bloody huge bonus. The only comparable bonus is Gold Rush. Using Barter is basically like multiplying your money by 1.8 for a turn.
5)Combining 2 and 3, once you start getting Barter, you'll have far superior unit numbers and tech levels to your opponent. Using combat you can both deplete the opponent's army with your more numerous troops, but you can also make more money than they do.
6)The fact that you get units on the cheap means that your CO powers just cost less to use in the long run on an economic scale. If you translate 20000G worth of units into a 32000G CO power (2nd Use), then you've just made your CO power cost 12000G less than it should have.

That my friends is why Barter is broken. These kinds of powers CAN be fine, but they have to be a small effect, otherwise they're broken, especially because of the self-feeding effect.

As for the 65% cost...well, it works if we're working with 80% costs. But I'm going to stick with 90% costs. 75% costs with that grants a 1.2x, 70% gives a 1.29x and 65% gives a 1.38x multiplier. I think I'll stick to 1.2x.
Note: I'm making propositions. Also, anyone can play against a 90/100 80% cost Colin. It's his power which breaks him. So IMO, you are still going a bit far...
His power may have sent him to the land of unspeakable brokenness, but he was quite reasonably overpowered day to day. Even with 70/100 units, Colin would probably still arserape anyone on a small island map, or any other map with a heavy focus on Naval usage. Or quite a few maps with an air heavy component.

I went for 90% costs, because 80% costs is like getting into the area of +1 movement day to day. They're either far too powerful or far too weak.

Xen @ Work

Post by Xen @ Work » Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:46 am

Oh, right, I forgot one or two things:
How about a 100/100 Sturm? We have defence and offence freak. I just want some guy (like Ender) who moves well and makes meteors fall.
Well, Sturm has never been a 'balanced' commander. He's always been an offence or defence freak. AW2 Sturm just combined both.
How so? Cost effective battling is using units which are strong against the enemy. High base damage. And he has lower costs...
Eh, I suppose so. But it does drastically reduce the effectiveness of a lot of units. Especially infantry and Tanks.

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Post by GaroNinja » Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:58 am

2)It's self feeding. The power lets you get more units to lose which lets you get more units which gets you more .... [feedback loop]. The only other self feeding CO power is Gold Rush, which self feeds both it's charge and it's effect.

OBJECTION!

The "only" other self-feeding power? So, you mean you can't think of another power which permanently alters the number of units you have?

*Slams hand on table*

Clearly, you should be spending more time in Yellow Comet, Xen.

*Points finger at Xen*

BECAUSE COPTER COMMAND IS ALSO SELF FEEDING!

Granted, the effect is less in AW2 than it is in AW:DS, as you would need to lose 24 of the newly produced infantry to charge your bar for the second time... But still, it fits the definition of "self-feeding" to the "T"!

>_>

<_<

I think I play too much Pheonix Wright.

Regardless, I agree with most of your points (although Barter SHOULD be broken; Hachi is a trophy CO, not one meant for VS play), but it's not very nice to forget Sensei like that. He has very delicate feelings, you know.

Theres Advance Wars hentai? Who the Hell would draw that? There are far better things to draw Hentai of. - Marsillo
Like me. - Blame Game

I was going to post a "Why'd you buy when you could rent?" but then I remembered Austrailia is a gimped continent where people build careers on raping crocodiles and there's no places to rent stuff. - Marsillo

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Xenesis
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Post by Xenesis » Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:24 pm

Well, if you want Hachi as a trophy CO, play the original game.

I for one quite like the theme behind Hachi and would like to be able to use him fairly in Versus games.

But yes, Sensei. Heh. Yes, Copter Command and Airborne assault are both self feeding, but it is in a fairly small way.
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Post by GaroNinja » Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:40 pm

Well, thematically, he's supposed to be a kickass war veteran, not on par with Andy day to day >_>. He seems like he's a bit to similar to Colin, though... Except for his city deployment (which seems rather useless in the face of reduced deployment costs). I kind of like Kireato's idea of nerfing his luck to allow him to keep his day to day strength; it sounds exciting and new. I generally don't like the idea of blanding COs to balance them, although I don't really have a better idea for Nell, and Lash was just asking for it.

Though, as for Sensei, it's not such a small way in Advance Wars DS, where a 9 hp infantry is over a third of a star instead of a mere 10%. I can't imagine trying to rout Sensei in, say, Asphalt Maze. Completely off topic, of course, but yeah >_>.

Theres Advance Wars hentai? Who the Hell would draw that? There are far better things to draw Hentai of. - Marsillo
Like me. - Blame Game

I was going to post a "Why'd you buy when you could rent?" but then I remembered Austrailia is a gimped continent where people build careers on raping crocodiles and there's no places to rent stuff. - Marsillo

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Terragent
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Post by Terragent » Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:46 pm

Routing Sensei in Asphalt Maze? Let's see...

I'd say that the best way is to camp on the cities with vehicles. Jess, Max, and Kindle would all be great for that.

Bog
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Post by Bog » Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:22 pm

Hm, maybe making Hachi's COP 6/7 stars? If not, make it 60% costs? Good comprimise, Xen?

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Kireato

Post by Kireato » Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:29 pm

Colin:
Well, if you go for 90% cost, then I suggest keeping him 90/100.

You're right a good Colin player would still be able to work with 70/100 units, just as a good player can deal with how overpowered Colin is day to day. (90/100 units for 90% cost) Same for Jess or Max, one can do with their day to day. The difference between Jess and Max is that Jess has some crazy powers which give her far too much strength in her area and more. Colin's COP pushes it even farther...

I still think that 80% cost works for 90/90 units or 80/100 units or even for 100/80 units. Of course, we're talking big weakness, big strength. But it's not like I'm seeing you take away Max's indirect range problems and kill his huge boost. (Though you did take away Grit's range. )

And I must say, I don't really mind only having small strength small weaknesses. But IMO, if 80% is too much, I'm sure you realize that 120% is also too much. 80% isn't the same type of bonus as a +1 movement, and even if it is, nerfing your units to 90/90 or 80 firepower makes it a very manageable strength.

Concerning Barter:
I'm aware of all that. But I'm also aware that if you want a small effect, you'll have to put a cost appropriate. And 5 stars isn't appropriate.

Also, I was thinking of barter at 3 stars for Colin. He doesn't have the same costs...

But anyhow, these are my stats for balance:

Colin
1)
80% cost: 90/90 units
COP: 2 stars/ 65% cost
SCOP: Same
2)
90% cost: 90/100 units
COP: 2 stars: 75% cost
SCOP: Same

Hachi:
90% cost: No luck
COP: 3 stars: Cities = base
SCOP: 5 stars: 60% cost

(Hachi's SCOP gives him 1.5 the funding for a turn. Colin's COP gives him 1.2)

About the lack of luck:
Again, as can be noticed by taking a 50 base damage, one can say that having no luck is very manageable. (About 90/100 firepower which works with the cost) Most importantly, if you look at base damage, you can see that those under 50 are usually matchups you don't go for. (B copter vs. AA, or AA vs. Tank) And he's not losing any luck when he's losing HP either.

Hachi has the advantage of a slightly easier expansion, and the ability to take initiative in the unit buildup easily. In exchange of what, he doesn't deal as much damage, takes more counter, can't count on small commandos suddenly destroying neotanks and doesn't break chokes as easily. I don't know, it seems nice and I've tried it. Not against a human opponent, but it still works well enough.

Still, I'd rather have version 1) of Colin because he introduces more early expansion while having even less powerful units.
Well, Sturm has never been a 'balanced' commander. He's always been an offence or defence freak. AW2 Sturm just combined both.
And...? Giving him defence and less attack makes him the ultimate meatshielder (indirects moving uber fast)/capturer (infantry over mountain/recons vs. enemy infantry). Giving him offence makes it way to easy for him to gain terrain defence and cover up while enticing the opponent away by using terrain.

So really, why should we keep offence and defence?

So yeah I'm still partially agreeing with you. I'm just leening more towards keeping Hachi's and Colin's original strength. (Just as I'd have rather gone for a 90 all around firepower Grit to keep what makes him him.)

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Kireato

Post by Kireato » Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:28 pm

Oh and I'm somewhat wrong with my calculations.

90% cost for 90/90 units isn't great, but it's at the limit of balance.
80% cost for 90/90 units is a bit too good... It's not too noteceable though.

Here's what I did:
(Firepower/cost) / (enemy firepower/enemy cost)
With Kanbei, this gives you (1.2/1.2) / (0.8/1) = 1.25.

This means that Kanbei and a bland opponent are of equal strength when the opponent has 1.25 * the number of properties that Kanbei has. (1.25/1.25 =1) This works considering that the opponent gets expansion advantage.

However, in small maps, Kanbei is advantaged because expansion isn't very important and Kanbei starts out with as much funds as you. Kanbei is also much better in ground maps for cost effectiveness reasons. (More cost effective matchups and terrain stars to use to his advantage.)

The reason I still say that 90% cost 90/90 Colin is a bit on the weak side of balance is because I'm not sure that he can expand that effectively... On the other hand, 80% cost means that Colin and his opponent are eual when having equal funds, but with the expansion advantage, Colin gets advantaged in some expansion map and is technically balanced on small maps.

Also 100/80, 80/100 and 90/90 units are in no way the same.

Colin works by getting teched up units or by overwhelming the opponent. In the first case, the opponent has ridiculously low base damage to attack Colin (which makes a loss of defence a very weak weakness), in the second, Colin can get first strike because he can afford to meatshield much more.

As such, 100/80 stats would strengthen Colin. 90/90 units is a bit much.

Shouldn't we have an 80/100 Colin (at 80% cost)? Less firepower seriously limits Colin's ability to take as much advantage of teched up units or even indirects.

Of course, I'm not sure... But I have noticed that Hachi just doesn't get the same expansion as Colin which is why I'm doubtful about Colin's ability to really get the needed funds advantage at 90% cost for 90/90 units. 90% cost for 90/100 units would definitely work better... There isn't that much of an expansion boost and Colin is sure to have the power at the level of his costs.

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Xenesis
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Post by Xenesis » Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:35 am

Hmm, in having ignored it a lot, I can't believe I forgot how broken Power of Money is too. So, with a lot of mathematical fiddling, I present what should be the next Power of Money:

Base Stat: 75/110
G Required for 100/110 - 10,000G
Multiplier: +2.5% Per 1000G

Note: The multiplier change is not hacking advances, just mathematical trickery. Like how Lash's CO Abilities multiply by 1.X per Terrain Star, Colin's multiply by 1.0X, where X = 10/3 per 1000G. Of course, 10/3 x .75 = 2.5

As such, I realise that I haven't taken this into account in my CO stats FAQ for AW2, and should update it.

Edit: On Second thought, that confuses the issue, as I know for a fact that the maximum possible firepower that is reproduceable in-game is 34x firepower, (Infantry Vs Neotank/Md.Tank) which only happens on Max Funds...

Hmm.

*goes to investi-mi-gate*
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Post by Bog » Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:44 am

For Power Of Money, how about +20% attack for every 10k?

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Xenesis
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Post by Xenesis » Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:12 am

As I said in the previous post, it's mathematical trickery.

As such, what you'd suggest would require a minimum of 20,000G to break 100% firepower. (Base 60% Firepower, +2% per 1000G)

I dunno, but that seems a little too weak.
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Post by Bog » Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:17 am

It seems balanced to me....now that I think about it a little overpowered, actually. Once the game gets going you will be getting about 10k + daily. And POM is...6 stars, isn't it? (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Of course it might be impossible to do....

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Xenesis
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Post by Xenesis » Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:29 am

Maybe so, but you can't save your income for 6 days without spending any on units, especially with the nerfed Gold Rush.

Ideally, it should be useful, without being overkill. Unfortunately, it's a scaling power, so yeah.

With my suggestion, 20,000G grants 125/110 Stats, which is respectable for a Super power.

The only problem is the power ramps up quickly if you save...
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Post by Bog » Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:34 am

Xenesis wrote:Maybe so, but you can't save your income for 6 days without spending any on units, especially with the nerfed Gold Rush.

Ideally, it should be useful, without being overkill. Unfortunately, it's a scaling power, so yeah.

With my suggestion, 20,000G grants 125/110 Stats, which is respectable for a Super power.

The only problem is the power ramps up quickly if you save...
In the typical map, you will start off with 5 properties; normally two bases, two cities and a HQ. By day 7 you will probably have 10 properties. I think it is balanced, myself. What do the rest of you think?

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Xenesis
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Post by Xenesis » Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:36 am

But the point is, it should be at least usable on a single day's worth of income.

You can't save up for 5 days without putting yourself at a major disadvantage.
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Post by Bog » Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:45 am

If you have 10 cities, you will be getting 10,000 a turn. Meaning if you had 0 at end of your turn last turn, your opponent attacked enough to charge your SCOP, and then you got 10k (10,000) from the cities on your next go and activated the power, you will get +20% attack.

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Post by Xenesis » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:01 am

Unfortunately, the only way to do that at the moment is to reduce Colin's base firepower to 60%.

And 60% + 20% is still less than the default daily firepower.
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Post by Bog » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:07 am

Hmm...ok. How about just building on the COP. Just do normal Gold Rush plus a firepower boost of +30%.

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Post by Xenesis » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:16 am

Strangely enough, no one actually knows how to remove the Funds into Firepower effect from Colin. :(
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Post by Bog » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:27 am

But you can change the amount of firepower given per 1p, yes? Otherwise this conversation is pretty pointless.

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Post by x0_000 » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:29 am

Nope, we know nothing.
Only in math can you buy 600 cantaloupes and not look like a nutter.

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Post by Bog » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:36 am

THIS IS POINTLESS

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Kireato

Post by Kireato » Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:36 am

Oh Yeah, PoM.

My suggestion:
I've noticed that Kanbei's AWDS COP firepower boost is 30% for 4 stars.
Kindle with 15 properties will get the exact same proportion of firepower for stars. Of course, she's still got the additional city firepower boost, but that's due to the fact that the longer you wait the less something is worth using.

In other words, calculations for PoM should occur with 15K per day and trying to get a 45% firepower boost.

My suggestion:

D2D:
80% cost for 80/100 units
COP: 2 stars
65% cost
SCOP: 6 stars
Same as always

It works just right. Though the Colin player can double the boost by saving up for one day it's good to remember he gets his stats from a start of 80%. So that's 160% firepower if he saves up for 30K.

I say it's nice and it works.
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Post by Bog » Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:32 pm

Kireato wrote:Oh Yeah, PoM.

My suggestion:
I've noticed that Kanbei's AWDS COP firepower boost is 30% for 4 stars.
Kindle with 15 properties will get the exact same proportion of firepower for stars. Of course, she's still got the additional city firepower boost, but that's due to the fact that the longer you wait the less something is worth using.

In other words, calculations for PoM should occur with 15K per day and trying to get a 45% firepower boost.

My suggestion:

D2D:
80% cost for 80/100 units
COP: 2 stars
65% cost
SCOP: 6 stars
Same as always

It works just right. Though the Colin player can double the boost by saving up for one day it's good to remember he gets his stats from a start of 80%. So that's 160% firepower if he saves up for 30K.

I say it's nice and it works.
That's still overpowered methinks. I think Gold Rush should be left as it is, but increase the cost by 1 or 2 stars to prevent double Gold Rushing. It's the only reason Colin is broken. For his SCOP, just have a 1.8 multiplyer instead.

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Post by Shift Breaker » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:46 pm

I think Gold Rush should be left as it is, in the normal AW2

Only colin has 200% costs for that turn. And Every Other Turn...You know what? Just get rid of colin and add a CCO in there for the next Hack.
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Post by Bog » Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:09 pm

Shift Breaker wrote:I think Gold Rush should be left as it is, in the normal AW2

Only colin has 200% costs for that turn. And Every Other Turn...You know what? Just get rid of colin and add a CCO in there for the next Hack.
200% costs? A Tank would cost 14k!

And just putting in a new CO would eliminate the point on the Balance Hack. >_>

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Post by Tronn_Bonne » Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:53 am

I like the changes done to all the COs. Andy’s super still seems a tad strong but heh. My only suggestion is with Sonja. She looks great but I was wondering if it is possible to give her no luck (0-1) instead of -10 bad luck. I think no luck fits her theme more (she is such a micromanager that her troops do not have the room to seize opportunities) and I do not think it will greatly disrupt her gameplay (plus I do not like dealing with bad luck <_<). Of course, this is a very small point but I am curious to know what Xen (and others) think about it.
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Post by Bog » Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:03 am

I think it would make her even more broken than she already is. Sonja needs another disadvantage; not to have her only one taken away.

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