Tier List (2016+ discussion)

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ThunderWalker
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ThunderWalker » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:11 pm

Sven wrote:
ThunderWalker wrote:I think the buff-nerf suggestions also miss the point of a few things that are overpowered/broken. Kanbei's main problem - in AW2 at least, is Samurai Spirit, due to the functioning of the def formula (With AWDoRs def formula it actually isn't a problem). I can only imagine it being worse in AWDS with the fast-charging powers. That, and Sami isn't mentioned at all despite Victory March being a broken mechanic. Sensei and Hachi's SCOP are pretty similar. I think Xen did a great job of curbing their powers in his AW2 hack but his incarnation of Sensei would still be very powerful in AWDS.

Also, isn't Lash COP meter xxXXXX? Or did I just play modified versions of AW2 that long that I don't even remember her original power bar?
On that note, do I even still have a clean version of AW2? I probably do, but it's likely well-hidden.
this is just wrong information.

the most important thing is how the stats of your units compare to the stats of your opponents. if you play brenner in DoR (who's just 110/130) vs forsythe at 110/110 you will smack him silly with very little effort, despite a 'corrected' formula. the game will feel downright easy if you're even remotely close to the skill level of the other player. a 20 point differential is too much to overcome without some sort of compensating factor via a CO power/other abilities.

the AW2 formula changes things so that a point of defense is in some sense worth "more" than a point in attack. for kanbei's case though, it really doesn't matter. AW2 kanbei can very easily beat most COs without ever activating a power. just move your units in your opponent's general direction and watch them drop like flies. a 60 point stat differential is just dumb. every CO in AW2 that can even possibly deal with kanbei does it by making units of absurd quality (grit, colin, sturm), quantity (sensei), or both (hachi). and even then i'm pretty sure kanbei beats the crumpets out of most of the COs i've listed anyway.
Oops, I forgot Kanbei was 130/130 in AW2, thought he was just 120/120 like in AW1 and AWDS.
Yeah, can't even recall the last time I played AW2 unmodified. But even then, Samurai Spirit is pretty ridiculous as your units on mountains/HQ become just plain invincible and those on other terrain take a lot less damage too. But yeah, Kanbei is ridiculously overpowered in vanilla AW2 and the (predeployed) mission Duty and Honor even relies on him being broken as heck.

Now we're talking about the various AWs in this thread, I suddenly remember why I didn't like vanilla AW2 anymore :P

Also, isn't Forsythe 120/120?
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Sven

Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by Sven » Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:52 am

i mixed him up with penny d2d my bad

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ALAKTORN » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:26 pm

After an almost 4 and a half hours game of Sasha vs. Gippy’s Grit I have some thoughts. Edit: I’ll explain a little how it went. IIRC I had the better cap phase and was 22–15 at one point. I used like 3 BBombs but they didn’t do a lot. At one point semi-late game I made the mistake of thinking he couldn’t charge, but he did and basically destroyed everything. On D26 I lost the game because I couldn’t hold my Cities anymore. Sasha’s COP held off Grit’s better than I expected but he still got 2 important ones off and after using mine for like 5 times it took forever to charge back.
vid (4:21′48″): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYZyQsE7cKg

1. Grit is not the worst CO in the game you’re crazy.
2. Make day limit 25 days at least pls kthx. (Or let’s start playing with a dynamic timer.)
3. Black Bomb is bad. 25k is a lot of money to spend even for Sasha and when there are 2 fronts on a semi-big map its effectiveness is basically halved.

Other general thoughts looking at the tier:
1: Mass Units (Hachi, Sensei)
2: Rachel, Kanbei
3: Colin, Sami, Eagle, Mass Damage (Von Bolt/Kindle/Olaf/Hawke/Drake)
4: Vehicles (Jess/Max/Grimm), Sonja, Sasha, Universal +MP (Andy/Koal/Adder)
5: Luck (Nell/Jugger/Flak), Narrow (Jake, Lash, Javier), Grit

Top tier seem pretty well set, but bottom are all wrong. I would do away with the “vehicles”, “+MP” etc. themes, they don’t fit that nicely. Andy, Nell, Jake, Grit all COs I’d probably put higher. Koal/Adder should go lower.

Good posts:
GipFace wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:14 am
ALAKTORN wrote:What’s the second number in those graphs? Also, how did you feel about yesterday’s game where you lost to Jugger with Adder? I couldn’t watch much of it.
I threw the game with a blunder, but I still think Adder sucks. In a game where powers are so crucial, both of Adder's powers are insignificant. They don't increase his ATK, so the only way you're getting extra damage in is if you hit units you normally couldn't have hit. Flak/Jugger's SCOP is underwhelming compared to Nell's SCOP but it's still a huge ATK boost.

Spamming Adder's COP gives you 110/110 quite often, but I'm starting to think he might be worse than Jake and Lash. At least Lash has a slight ATK bonus, however small it may be. Koal probably sucks in the same manner as well. Andy is clearly above those two because he can counter mass damage and he gets an ATK boost with SCOP.

Sven was skeptical that Rachel was the 3rd-best CO in the game. So we played Kanbei vs. Rachel. Kanbei got stomped. http://www.twitch.tv/gipstream2/v/38567417

Lastly, Jake may rise because 150A on plains during SCOP seems OK based on the plains-heavy maps we're using.
GipFace wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:58 pm
What I've discovered is that a CO with an unreliable attack boost is better than no attack boost at all.

Sasha and Adder continually perform poorly for me and may be bumped down below the luck COs. Adder/Koal aren't very good in practice and I might just take Lash and Jake over them. My Sasha lost to Jugger because all Jugger needed to break Sasha was to win 3 luck rolls during SCOP. That means you could typically have half your luck rolls fail and still come out on top.

I've never been the best at squeezing my funds to make the most cost-efficient army composition, but I'm really not digging Sasha. Maybe someone else can give her a shot.
Edit: We had the inverted runback me P1 Grit him P2 Sasha, instead of spamming copters he made Stealths and I thought AAs countered so spammed those, welp… still somehow got props advantage midgame though and only really lost when he banked so much he had a big army and 2 BBombs. Sasha vs. Grit have really close games, Grit is not worst CO. First game I was P2 Sasha and was up 22–15 props at one point (Gippy blundered), second game worst position was like 17–20 for Gippy I think and I went 20–19 or something when I got advantage. Stayed at 19–19 up until like D27 or D26 but then I got mawled. Basically if this game ended D20 I’d have won, if previous game ended D25 I’d have won. lol Weird how I’d have gotten a win earlier on as Grit, who’s supposed to take time to win… I guess too much time and the opponent gets a successful BBomb. They didn’t work for me because I used them too soon. I still think they’re not that good, the 4 Stealths he made did most of the damage. Oh yeah also my copter spammy strategy in the first game made it so I was spamming COP to stop Grit’s, but this game we never fought that much and Gippy actually never COP’d. Used SCOP twice and first time he got 15.1kG from it… I used like 1 COP 2 SCOPs, not sure. They weren’t game changing enough I guess… though without the BBomb I was in a pretty good position.
vid (4:41′25″): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOS3RHBArKw

Blanket PI
Rank: Hey I am not THAT smelly

Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by Blanket PI » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:11 am

I've watched most of that match you provided, and I think there's something you weren't considering (not that Grit isn't better than listed, but that the degree might not be as severe as it appears): If in an Adder vs. Grit match, the properties go 20-17, Adder has an economic gain over Grit if Adder trades one of his Tanks for one of Grit's Artilleries. Why? Adder has 3/17 more income every turn than Grit. 3/17 > 1/6. A Tank is worth 1/6 more than an Artillery nominally. So really, Adder would spend a smaller portion of his income on a Tank (7/20) than Grit would have on an Artillery (6/17). You had an even more extreme case. With Sasha vs. Grit and a 22-15 split, you effectively had 24.2 properties, right? So you had 9.2/15 more income than Grit. That's larger than 1/2. So you could have traded a B Copter with an Artillery and still come out ahead, economically. Maybe that'd have been enough to prevent the Artilleries from building up? I don't know, having little experience with the series and that only with the most drastically different game in the series.

I agree with Erisin, though. The terrain helped a lot, too, since you couldn't attack many units twice in one turn.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ALAKTORN » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:12 pm

Played Grit vs. Gippy’s Flak, got mawled. Didn’t get to D20 I think, 1h40′ game. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/209336142

It started off fine, I even had like 1 prop advantage for a turn or two. But when we got our armies settled, it was a stalemate where I wasn’t sure how to advance and he got a BBomb out, mawling me. I think the map was “too” big and open so the BBomb worked well, contrary to the map in the previous game which I think was smaller and had rivers and pipes I think? This game I couldn’t cut the map in half with a line of Infs so the BBomb could just penetrate and hit whatever. I don’t think this map is very kind to Grit; had to expose and place my Arty in weird ways.

Only 1 of my Infs died to cap a center prop throughout the whole game, until the BBomb situation. No powers were used. lol (I SCOP’d as a meme before yielding.)

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ALAKTORN » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:50 pm

4: Vehicles (Jess/Max/Grimm), Sonja, Sasha, Universal +MP (Andy/Koal/Adder)
LUL

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/211864444

Just had a 3h56′ game against Gippy’s Grimm as Andy and won it by surrender at D24. Hyper Upgrade with MDs is too good. The whole game was Gippy charging COP for an attack, and me retaliating with SCOP, ending up slightly ahead each time. The first turn where Gippy almost had COP I took forever to play, but in the end I think I chose the right play in going in, leveraging my SCOP threat. He COP’d and attacked me, but I countered with SCOP. Also another point of focus I think was the fact that I hopped to the center City and took it, while Gippy didn’t and wasn’t able to capture it throughout the whole game.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ALAKTORN » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:58 pm

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/212119475 3h game

1: Mass Units (Hachi, Sensei)
2: Rachel, Kanbei
3: Colin, Sami, Eagle, Mass Damage (Von Bolt/Kindle/Olaf/Hawke/Drake)
4: Vehicles (Jess/Max/Grimm), Sonja, Sasha, Universal +MP (Andy/Koal/Adder)
5: Luck (Nell/Jugger/Flak), Narrow (Jake, Lash, Javier), Grit

Gippy thinks Eagle might be better than Colin so we played it. I was Colin and yielded on D19 (should’ve done so much earlier). Colin gets a huge advantage to start with because he can spam Tanks earlier than Eagle so you can hop and cap the center then sit a Tank on it. By D8 I had 3 Tanks 1 AA vs. 3 Tanks 1 BC. Thanks to my early Tanks I played 1 City up and at a positional advantage in the early game. But then come D10 he suicides his whole family and a kitchen sink to charge COP and attack–retreats. From then on Eagle just kept charging COP and making more and more units and winning fights. I fudge hate Eagle.

We’re playing it again. Colin needs to capitalize on the early advantage and not let it slip away to Lightning Drive. Colin D2D demolishes Eagle but Lightning Drive is super stupid.

Edit: New list by Gippy

1: Hachi, Sensei
2: Rachel, Kanbei, Colin, Eagle
3: Sami, Von Bolt, Kindle, Hawke, Olaf, Drake, Nell
4: Sonja, Sasha, Jess, Max, Andy, Flak, Jugger, Grimm
5: Jake, Adder, Koal, Lash, Javier
6: Grit

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ALAKTORN » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:14 pm

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/212885776 5h25′ game!!! Map always Apocalyptic, Gippy P1 Kanbei me P2 Colin. He yielded on D28. (The start of the video is me losing as P2 Kanbei on D1, Colin makes D2+D3 Recon and I have no reply because I hopped with my FTA counter Inf.)

Colin hard counters Kanbei imo, cheap Megas and BBombs are too much. Colin banks like 40k+G then COPs and builds 2 Megas + Fighter/Bomber/Bomb whichever you want, then you have leftover money for a 3rd Mega next turn. Kanbei can’t answer the Mega spam because his Bombs are 30kG, Gippy made a single Mega and 2 Stealths to try to counter my Mega spam, but I just made 2 Fighters for the Stealths and I kept building 20kG Bombs (built 4 in the whole game and 5 Megas too) to hit his Mega and the rest of his army with, so his Mega just ended up sitting on a City wasting money. Super units don’t matter if a Bomb deals 5HP to everything regardless of Defense, and Colin’s got some great Bombs. He did make a single Bomb the whole game which forced me to scatter my units and didn’t let me push much, but after he expended it to try and push SW I was free to let my Megas rip everything apart. With 2 Megas, an Arty and a Fighter I pushed NE and started capping all his props, while defending my own with semi-daily Bombs.

The game actually started off terrible for me and I was too stubborn to let Kanbei cap one of my NE Cities which I felt like I blundered away, so I suicided to charge SCOP and used it on the single BC attack to stop the capture. lol Kanbei of course just capped it like 3 turns later. It looked grim, but accepting the fact I wasn’t gonna keep the City I started banking and turtling, which allowed me the COP Mega spam push which reversed the game.

Also Gippy had a game as Eagle v. Atrum’s Kanbei and apparently demolished him with Arty spam. Eagle is probably better than Rachel too. …And honestly I’ve never seen Sensei play and would like to see if he’s really that good. Hachi gets half cost Megas on front Cities so lol undisputed best CO.

Edit: We did meColin v. Eagle again and I got creamed by 18MP BBombs. lol

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:19 am

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/213196710 3h28′ game me P2 Hachi v. Sensei, same map; Sensei yields D16

preface: notations are as seen by me, P2
I’m not sure if Sensei could’ve done something against it, but I hopped like a madman and secured 2 front Cities (N, NW) while building a Recon and later an Arty to make sure Sensei didn’t cap his NE front City. Gippy tried replying with a Tank but he had to go as far as attacking my NE capping Inf inside Arty range, which did stop my capture but it also rendered his Tank useless. Edit: I feel like Gippy could’ve used the Tank + Inf better. Like, even if he still suicided to stop my City cap, he could’ve put his Inf on a Mountain instead of Road so that my Recon doesn’t do as much damage to it, and then he can use the Tank + low HP Inf to kill my Recon. In the game his 3HP Inf after being attacked basically did nothing and my 1HP Recon changed fronts while healing up to 5HP and helped out against Infs. Edit: Also I think he made a huge mistake on D10 by coming in with AA and Tank just to kill 4HP and 10HP Infs, I killed the AA and put the Tank to 1HP in the process. That Inf was actually bait for the AA, I’m surprised he took it. The AA could’ve probably gone W to help defend his capping Inf.
So anyway, Gippy started off with a SCOP because if he just did COP I could counter with mass Recons or something, then started spamming COP from then on. With my first SCOP I made 2 front Megas and a ton of Infs (which weren’t actually all that useful compared to Sensei’s Inf spam…). Gippy replied with a BBomb, which did do a lot of damage together with his mass of soldiers and couple BCs, but he could only hit 1 Mega and it was sitting on my front City, so I didn’t care all that much. Maybe it would’ve been better for him to use the Bomb W to stop my push, or maybe he should’ve made a second one for that. I banked some more, joined 8HP Tank and 5HP BCs, and made Mega + BBomb + AA ×3 because Gippy was running low on Mechs and only had like 1 Tank. Gippy made his 2nd BBomb then but it was too little too late.
I think P2 helps Hachi in this map because the FTACI allows for double hopping with the D1 Infs to capture center Cities.

Gippy’s latest hot take:
Hachi > Sensei >>> Colin > Eagle > Rachel > Kanbei > maybe Sami
And then the fair tier starts at Kindle
Hachi is the best CO because mass vehicles are dumb and beats everything else
Sensei has mass soldiers and can hit the unit cap, and SCOP is basically a free 40kG
At this point I think Colin is the 3rd best CO because tbh, we've seen all of our broken tier games revolve around megas and blackbombs
And Colin gets em cheap
Eagle has to pay normal price for those but has cheat code COP
It's close but I still think Colin has the edge

ayy
Personally I disagree with Colin as 3rd best, I think Eagle beats him. Not sure about Rachel’s position, never played her or against her.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ALAKTORN » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:49 am

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/213891172 2h39′ game meAndy P1 vs. Jess, same map, I win by resignation on D15 after my 2nd SCOP.

I still think Jess beats Andy, but Gippy blundered. He started off well with like a D4 Recon that forced me to make 2 Recons to counter it because I assumed I’d have enough money for Tank but I’d have had to cut an Inf for it so chose to go double Recon instead (hey, it’s Stars). Then he went for Mega which I think is a bad idea to begin with as Jess but the blunder was the fact he suicided a whole bunch of units just to charge a SCOP that ultimately put his Megatank (+ Tank/AA and a few Infs IIRC) into my BBomb range also because his suicide charged my SCOP. And all he got was a BC/Recon kill and a Tank put to 1HP IIRC, which of course I healed up to 6HP right after, and all the Inf walls he attacked made it back to 10HP and hit back at a big advantage, making him lose his SW side. Killing the Recon with Megatank left it on Road and in range of my Bomb, so with SCOP I bombed it then used my MD to put it to 2HP from Woods (it still dealt 3dmg counter!). He chose to suicide it next turn on my MD, but regardless, the Mega was doomed after that SCOP.

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