Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Talk about Advance Wars DS. Debate, laugh, cry, argue about everything to do with our favourite tag game here.
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-STL-

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by -STL- » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:44 am

I tried the capture animation. Every point you capture adds 1 frame to the ani. So aslong you cap in 2 days there´s no difference.

And the map timer keeps running even if the total timer stops at 0:00, so you get still 9 seconds. Btw you don´t lose if the timer is at 0:00 and you are into an action not only capturing but also Menu, attack etc. This way it´s possible to get a map time far over the total time.
If you end a map with 65536 seconds which are 1092:16 and it beats your saved map record aka you don´t have a record for the map yet, it will be saved as 0:00 since it uses 2 bytes.
So yeah this way you can get 0:00 on every solo map on your DS, but it will ofc never be done, dunno why Michele didn´t want to reveal it, you would need to time it with a stopwatch too XD
It doesn´t work for the Basic Course since it only cares about the Time left.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:59 am

I wouldn't want to have people getting those glitched times and claiming them legit, it's not like it would be impossible to time it

M6 strats table:
Arty move Rockets+COP
Cannon defense without powers

for humans Rockets+SCOP/TAG, Arty move COP+COP or SCOP+COP are also ideas

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:00 am

M4 Lake Fever 6 seconds (395 frames) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUZ1LOuG20o

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DxDyDzD
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Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by DxDyDzD » Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:41 pm

The glitch is due to overflow, right? So if you end with 65536 seconds the timer loops around to 0.
If you end with 65537 seconds, will the timer loop around to 1 second? And 2 seconds by ending with 65538, etc. If it does then this glitch is quite dangerous as you can get seemingly legit scores. If the glitch only allows saving of 0:00 times then it's obvious that the time is not legit.

edit: I think I get what STL means now, I'll explain clearly. If I made any mistakes please point them out.
For any map, the game keeps a record of how long you've been playing it. So, say, you finish a map in 10 seconds. That's the time that will be shown on the records screen if it beats your current record.
However, if you're in the menu/whatever, the game won't stop if the on-screen timer showing your time left reaches 0:00. While this timer will stay at 0:00, the game is still keeping track of the amount of time you've been playing.
Example: Suppose you've been playing Map 1 on Champion for 30 minutes and you're just about to launch the killing blow (the game is asking you to confirm your attack). At this point the on-screen timer reaches 0:00. 1 second later, the on-screen timer is still at 0:00, you haven't been given a game over, and the game sees that you have been playing for 30:01, or 1801 seconds.
Since the game doesn't give you a game over, the internal timer will keep increasing. When it reaches 65535 seconds, the game sees that you've been playing for FF FF seconds in hexadecimal. One second later (65536 seconds), the game will record that you've played for 01 00 00 seconds...if it could. However, the game can't use more than 4 hexadecimal digits to store the number. Instead, it tries to store 01 00 00, but throws away the 01 in front. Your time is now 00 00. Congratulations, you just broke the game.

However, I don't think this will be achieveable in real life. As STL has pointed out, you have to keep your DS on for 1000+ hours. And if you screw up the button presses to finish the map, you've just wasted all those hours. It's safe to say that no-one would be crazy enough to try that. It's not worth racking up your power bill just for some glitch which will give the wrong results if you press a button 1 second too early or too late, and shows an obviously impossible time.

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samurai goroh
Location: Red Canyon hideout
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Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by samurai goroh » Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:17 pm

DxDyDzD wrote:However, I don't think this will be achieveable in real life. As STL has pointed out, you have to keep your DS on for 1000+ hours. And if you screw up the button presses to finish the map, you've just wasted all those hours. It's safe to say that no-one would be crazy enough to try that. It's not worth racking up your power bill just for some glitch which will give the wrong results if you press a button 1 second too early or too late, and shows an obviously impossible time.
Actually, the time waiting is rationally acceptable to be doable...:
65536 seconds = 18 hrs, 12 minutes, 16 seconds


Anyway, thanks for clearing my questions STL

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DxDyDzD
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Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by DxDyDzD » Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:40 pm

Oh, sorry. I misread minutes as hours. :roll: facepalm
Still, 18 hours is a long time. The DS's battery life is about 15-20 hours on lowest brightness.
TBH waiting 18 hours just to get a record is much slower than just playing one segment over and over until you get the best time.
The only people who would be willing to spend that much time already know the non-glitching strategy.

Strange thought: in Money Survival your record doesn't roll over past 65536, so the Time Survival "time taken" uses 4 hexadecimal numbers but the Money Survival "money spent" uses more than 4...

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:45 pm

I'd rather have people wow at my TAS than post about things I already know :(

that about Money Survival is normal, TS survival uses 2 bytes storage space (=65535), MS uses 4 bytes (=over 4 billions) no way you're gonna overflow that

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DxDyDzD
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Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by DxDyDzD » Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:30 pm

OK, wow. :)
A few more questions:
1) How do you do the cursor manipulation trick? Is it repeatable on a DS?
2) Can the overflow glitch be used to get non-zero times? I'm assuming yes.
3) Just out of curiosity, how much storage space does Turn Survival use? I'm thinking 1 byte only (255).

p.s. If you're worried about people using the glitch to break records, you could make them reveal their strategy before approving it. I mean, Time Survival is just planning strategies, then executing said strategies as fast as you can. I don't think that someone who thinks on the fly will be faster than someone who plans beforehand.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:13 pm

1) select+stylus on End Day, wait 1 frame and press A, to do on DS I think you can just press somewhere on the screen and end day with buttons, but I'm not sure, it doesn't help for humans anyway
2) yes
3) I haven't tested that, but probably 1 byte (same as MS Champion), and it probably maxes out at 99 (that's where days max out, at least)

STL

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by STL » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:51 pm

Dx why do you always recap things in a wall of text? But you were wrong here.
The temp map time has more than 2 bytes, i expect 4 bytes, so in the afterbattle screen it will still show 1092:16 used. It will compare your HS with that value too like i said. So only if you have no HS yet it will save. The save space is only 2 bytes so it saves as 0:00.
I don´t think anyone will use that ever, since you need to delete your save, wait 18 hours and the afterbattle screen still says the correct value. If you really wanna cheat you would use AR. XD

The champ save spaces is only 1 byte, while the Basic runs save space (tested on Money/Time) seemed to be 4 bytes. I cheated Time remaining and Money remaining to 25:01/500001 and it gave me a obsucre high number.

The glitched square will be often seen on DS, if you speedrun. Basically everytime when you try to use a Power/End day and mash A and stylus.

STL

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by STL » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:52 pm

Dx why do you always recap things in a wall of text? But you were wrong here.
The temp map time has more than 2 bytes, i expect 4 bytes, so in the afterbattle screen it will still show 1092:16 used. It will compare your HS with that value too like i said. So only if you have no HS yet it will save. The save space is only 2 bytes so it saves as 0:00.
I don´t think anyone will use that ever, since you need to delete your save, wait 18 hours and the afterbattle screen still says the correct value. If you really wanna cheat you would use AR. XD

The champ save spaces is only 1 byte, while the Basic runs save space (tested on Money/Time) seemed to be 4 bytes. I cheated Time remaining and Money remaining to 25:01/500001 and it gave me a obsucre high number.

The glitched square will be often seen on DS, if you speedrun. Basically everytime when you try to use a Power/End day and mash A and stylus.

that DxDyDzD

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by that DxDyDzD » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:26 pm

So that you can point out anything I misunderstood.
So the game stores your time used as a 4 byte number but the record is displayed using only the last 2 bytes?
Other than deleting one's save to glitch a record, the other possibility is that the player hasn't played Time Survival yet.

BTW: Don't you have to finish Basic Survival before you unlock Champion Survival? If so, then would do you not have a highscore yet?

that DxDyDzD

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by that DxDyDzD » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:27 pm

minor edit: the last question was supposed to be "how would you not have a highscore yet?".

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:33 pm

M4 new strat: Grit/Max, D2 SCOP build like so: http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7321/immaginefb.jpg

saves 40 frames (-1 swap) but requires a ton of luck, potential: 5 seconds

STL

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by STL » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:41 pm

Yes you need to finish Basic once to unlock Champ, but you don´t need need Champ to use that glitch.

For the m4 strat the % are 71,78,78,85 and 29% potential luck. That will need some serious RNG testing + we only have 4 frames to luckabuse to still get 5"

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:40 pm

if we find a way to somehow get the first attack to be full luck, holy crumpets I just had an idea on how to do this, if it works that'd be most of the problem solved

edit: nevermind doesn't work at all

edit2: well an idea is using cheats, though I don't know if that gives realistic results

STL

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by STL » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:55 pm

Kanbei should be able to get 8" on m11 too, he can fear the Infs.

Maybe Sensei can drop so on m10 that the supply is avoided?

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:04 pm

Kanbei on M11 would be faster, he loses 5 frames from Sami's SCOP but gains 10 due to better movement after drop… you mean he can drop 1S of HQ and 2D cap?

I'll test Sensei

Sensei seems to fail really bad

edit: actually Kanbei might not save that much because then it's an adjacent square movement, so maybe he just saves 2 frames or so

about M10, I wonder if waiting an extra day for the APC to get destroyed would be faster than Supply? / nvm, Supply seems to be 25 frames

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:16 am

after incredible effort from many different people, we're pretty much done in creating the Lake Fever strategy =)

new image: http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/4918/immaginekgf.jpg

the only missing piece now is a code (or much trial and error, due tomorrow or the day after) to figure out when exactly to start the map in order to have the lucky RNG that makes the kills possible

STL

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by STL » Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:49 pm

The RNG b4 1289 is good. It gives 29-24-29-24 with 5 advances in between.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:40 pm

STL wrote:The RNG b4 1289 is good. It gives 29-24-29-24 with 5 advances in between.
holy cow awesome XD

that would be 82481768

-> 1289 -> 6652530 -> 61568843 -> 830248028 -> 332982797 -> 183215334 -> 948450063 -> 52751056 -> 389822993 -> 12318426 -> 96114899 -> 201454532 -> 983595797 -> 181872206 -> 154189463 -> 372024

confirmed it, I can't believe you can get such high luck with 4 attacks in a row!

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:18 am

finally, it is done

Lake Fever in 5 seconds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in5zP-C91BA :)

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:30 am

M6 SW Arty 1E D3 COP strat is fastest
Last edited by ALAKTORN on Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:36 pm

M6 info

505241200 after entering map which is +64
1 frame based +15 normal on AI day
Arty attack 10+10+2
AID1 frame advance 2397 128 lag
2729 132 AID2 frame advance
distance is 332, 4 lag, meaning frame-lag = 328
AI D2 normal advances +12
COP +1 +64
attacks are 75 75 75 161, I can do the 161 whenever I want
the advances can differ...
30 - 22 - 22 - 22
22 - 30 - 22 - 22
22 - 22 - 30 - 22
22 - 22 - 22 - 26

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:36 am

M6 5" 332 frames http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw53FFIbQcc

update:

Code: Select all

  Map    TAS    Human(+)
   1      2       2
   2      6       3
   3     13       4
   4      5       4
   5      8       2
   6      5       5
   7     10       2
   8      8       6
  10     10       2
  11      8       2
Last edited by ALAKTORN on Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:33 am, edited 4 times in total.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:54 am

M7 10" 614 frames 2" improvement over human http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJk0mitj5lU

Guest

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by Guest » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:21 pm

lost frames due to boredom?

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:42 pm

Guest wrote:lost frames due to boredom?
who are you? it means I didn't care to optimize it because it wouldn't have saved 1 in-game second


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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:27 am

apparently when doing the Basic Course TAS, I didn't test enough with the last Tank attacks in M8, if one MD keeps 9HP the other Tank can attack the full HP MD, which is faster than both Tanks attacking the same MD

I'll TAS it later, we should get 8", 9" if we're really unlucky

506 frames, 8" +26 frames

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:05 am

STL just came out with Jugger being better, so my previous TAS is useless :|


STL

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by STL » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:29 pm

m9 TAS Rachel/Grimm
14 seconds / 883 frames
Maybe with perfect optimization and the best strat we could get 13.

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-STL-

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by -STL- » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:33 am

m11 9 seconds!

Update:

Code: Select all

  Map    TAS    Human(+)
   1      2       2
   2      6       3
   3     13       4
   4      5       4
   5      8       2
   6      5       4
   7     10       2
   8      8       5
   9     14       5
  10     10       2
  11      8       1
TAS Total Time: 1:29
Human Total: 2:03
Last edited by -STL- on Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:10 am, edited 3 times in total.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:33 pm

what the fudge, timer is rounded to a full second when starting a map :shock:

edit: considering this, a Basic Course strategy with Jugger/Eagle saves 1 second on M1 even using 6 attacks instead of 5, Grimm needs 7 which amount to 243, 4 seconds + 3 frames

so, planning a Basic Course TAS run, Jugger/Eagle save 1″ on M1, but might lose some on M9… would require some testing

M9 notes:
MD can suicide on City Mega

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Xenesis
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Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by Xenesis » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:30 am

Oh AWDS, you get more absurd every time I hear about your internal mechanics.

Is this actually relevant in regular Time Survival or is it only mattering in the TAS world?
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

STL

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by STL » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:56 pm

Xenesis wrote:
> Is this actually relevant in regular Time Survival or is it only mattering in the
> TAS world?

It matters on console aswell, since we now know that there's no point for example going for low-mid 9 seconds on a map when high 9 seconds is the same. And on the other hand a very high 12 is far better than a very low 13.


Now the first to test would be m6.
This strat gives at least 8 (old TAS was 11 and we save 4*32 frames from music and 4 movements compared to it):
D1: Move west MDs away and Arts in their place.
D2: Attack Neo with Art, build SE Rockets
D3: Destroy Neo, move Rockets 1N2W
D4: Attack Neos, destroy Mech
D5: Destroy both Neos, Mech

There is also a 3 day strat which might give 7, but requires the Cannon Guard skill and at least +22 Ind Att.
D1: Move all MDs away, move NW,SW,NE Art in its place and the SE Art 2S of the S Neo, build SE Art
D2: Attack the Neos, move newlybuild Art where SE MD was
D3: Destroy all

If the basic strat gives 8 and the 3 day strat 7, we need to see how we can balance the skill so we don't lose the gained second directly on another map.
Then the only remaining map to test is m9 and we can decide the team and skills.

STL

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by STL » Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:09 am

In fact moving the S MDs in the 3 day strat is not needed since we have Cannon Guard and 9HP Arts easyly OHKO the Mechs.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:11 am

if you have Cannon Guard, why move the MDs? is a full HP Arty attack really required to 2HKO a Neo? even for Jugger? (I’d like to use Jugger for the TAS because he’s a robot and it looks cool)

funny how we’re considering Cannon Guard now, SwifTy brought it up many years ago, I even remember testing it a little

and I read your CSM, I don’t care about real time so luck won’t be a problem if we use AI’s day advance for manipulation

STL

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by STL » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:04 pm

Even with Cannon Guard we still take 1 damage each day. 2HKOing Neo with 9 and 8HP attack are only up for Jugger with only 2 attack skills.
Grimm needs to move 2MDs (2*20 = 40 extra frames), Eagle/Flak can get it with 2MD moves aswell, they can 2HKO Neo with a 10 and 7HP Art attacks with 110% attack+, they have no room for the Cannon Guard skill.
So Jugger is 0 or 1 second faster than Grimm and Eagle/Flak on m6.
So only if Jugger gets low 6/ low 7 which would allow Grimm to get the same time on m6, we could consider using him, because Grimm might be 1 second faster than Jugger on m9 but not 2.

About luck the point is we only have around 45 frames to manipulate in AI day sign and with Jugger there might be some places that are 1 to 1000.

Btw the skills are:
Grimm: Soul of Hachi, Luck, Cannon Guard, City Attack+10
Sami: Woods=1, APC Boost, Partner Attack+8, Direct Def+12

Jugger: Soul of Hachi, Luck, Cannon Guard, Indirect Attack+8
Sami: Woods=1, APC Boost, Partner Attack+8, Direct Def+12

Eagle/Flak: Soul of Hachi, Luck, Indirect Attack+8, Partner Def+10
Sami: Woods=1, APC Boost, Partner Attack+8, Partner Attack+5

The minimum requirements are as follows:
For m4: Jugger+11, Grimm+18, Eagle/Flak+20
m6: Jugger+3 and Cannon Guard, Grimm+0, Eagle/Flak+10

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