Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

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STL

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by STL » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:08 pm

Correction:
The minimum requirements are as follows:
For m4: Jugger+11, Grimm+18, Eagle/Flak+20
m6: Jugger+3 and Cannon Guard, Grimm+0 and Cannon Guard, Eagle/Flak+10

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:49 pm

hmm, I could go and make a quick M6 TAS with Jugger and see what he gets I guess

about M9 I still think there needs to be done a lot of testing for the strategy, we can’t say how much Grimm actually saves…

STL

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by STL » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:51 am

The only thing only Grimm can do is getting Recon suicides on Mega. And that only on Plains, since Mega has 3 Ammo we can't get more than 3 since supply would take longer than making an attack ourselves. 3 suicides save a little less than a second.
For reference you got 1 Recon suicide in your old TAS.

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ALAKTORN
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Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:02 am

I guess you’re right, then it’s decided that for the TAS Jugger is best :)

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ALAKTORN
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Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:19 am

just TAS’d 381 (6″+21 frames) for M6 with Jugger

though I’m not entirely sure I followed the proper strategy…

D1 4 Arty moves, build Arty
D2 attack 3 Neos, move new Arty in position
D3 destroy everything

what does this result mean exactly? my mind is dead at the moment edit2: you had calculated +40 frames for the other teams, so in theory they’re 1 frame short XD but it’s probably possible to gain that frame to get the same second… only thing is, how are you supposed to destroy S Neo?

edit: I was about to test Grimm, but… how am I supposed to destroy S Neo? he still goes for the 3D strat, right? you said 9HP and 8HP was only Jugger, I can destroy the N Neos by moving away the 2 N MDs, but what about the S Neo?

is the 5D strat useless now, btw?

STL

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by STL » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:46 am

6+21? XD 2 frames less and Grimm has 6 secs too. But ofc that means Jugger would have a free switch in m6 from Sami (If m5 is faster with Sami SCOP)
With Grimm you take Cannon Guard and move a N and S MD so that it takes hits from all 3 cannons each, this way your Arts keep 10HP

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:54 am

dude, I don’t understand it

tell me D2D for the MD moves

edit: olol, I get it, but that’s far from 2 square moves, S is 3 and N is 4…

STL

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by STL » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:57 am

NW MD 2N2E and SW MD 2S2E.
So it's in fact 48 frames.

STL

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by STL » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:58 am

You are right S is only 3 squares, so 44 frames.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:00 am

STL wrote:NW MD 2N2E and SW MD 2S2E.
So it's in fact 48 frames.
for some reason I thought you meant 2 square moves with your calculations, but I see it was 3

it’s 3 for SW MD (2S 1E) and 4 for NW MD (2N 2E), so 44

I guess this makes Jugger even better, I hope M5 SCOP can save a second, which it actually should if the standalone record is anything to go by, right?

edit: I might even start the run soon at this rate, strat seems pretty much confirmed to be Jugger/Sami, though there’s a little problem, TASVideos wants a proof that the save file used is legit, I can always hope some other user can confirm that the movie synchs with their own save file but idk…

edit2: btw Grimm doesn’t need Cannon Guard for this strategy, would that make him better on some other map?

STL

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by STL » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:13 am

m5 Standalone was 9.1 secs, compared we it we do a Recon move extra (+15 frames), Swap (+40 frames) and a Supply(?) so it will be around 10.4 seconds in the basic run.
Compared to it if we cap with Jugger we need an extra day instead of the Swap (45-40 = +5), we have no supply but an APC move extra and 2D Cap took around 5 frames longer than SCOP cap IIRC, so for TAS the strats are about equal, but for human play Sami SCOP strat is better.

STL

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by STL » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:16 am

[quote="ALAKTORN"]
edit2: btw Grimm doesn’t need Cannon Guard for this strategy, would that make him better on some other map?[/quote]

Without Cannon Guard the MD would already take 9 damages on Enemy Day 1. And therefore our Arts would be attacked next.
Btw I think i was my former calculation with 40 frames was correct, if we move the N MD 2N1E wouldn't we already be in range of all 3 N cannons?

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-STL-

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by -STL- » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:19 am

In fact then moving 2S for the S Neo would be enough, so it's only 36 frames and Grimm gets 6 seconds?

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:22 am

STL wrote: Btw I think i was my former calculation with 40 frames was correct, if we move the N MD 2N1E wouldn't we already be in range of all 3 N cannons?
no you aren’t[/quote]
-STL- wrote:In fact then moving 2S for the S Neo would be enough, so it's only 36 frames and Grimm gets 6 seconds?
what are you talking about man xD look at the map

and hmm, the M5 strategy looks like a mess… isn’t the standalone record just moving the APC and SCOPing? in Basic we are swapping, moving a Recon and supplying? O_o and the swap means that we need to swap back on M6? :S

would better skill management let Jugger/Grimm do M5 alone? like giving them APC Boost instead of something else…

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-STL-

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by -STL- » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:29 am

We would do m5 with Jugger/Grimm in TAS, the strat is the same as the old TAS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dO-Euk5 ... re=related
It gives 10 secs w/o music, with APC Boost and Woods=1 we don't need to move the Recon but it wouldn't be enough for 9 IIRC. And even if, we don't have room for 2 skills XD

I will test m6 later, right now i can just see it from here:
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v205/ ... dleman.png
And isn't N Woods spot in range of all 3 N Cannons or can't Cannons fire 1N1W or 2N2W?

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:35 am

I think I messed up while TASing, lost 1 frame at every Arty attack… which means Jugger has room for a swap, and Grimm gets high 6″

Cannon range starts 1 square in front of it, then goes diagonal

about skills, does Sami need both Woods=1 and APC Boost? you could remove an attack skill for APC Boost and give Sami a partner attack… but I guess not, whatever

edit: oh my god I just got 420 with Grimm I want to kill myself

edit2: M5 with APC Boost for Jugger/Grimm may get a very high 6″ which seems weird

D1 25+14+32+47
D2 32+6+15+47
D3 20+158? or 20+75+47 D4 +75+3 = 438 7″ +18
I think APC Boost gives low 7″ and without high 7″… SCOP strat is slower for sure

edit: wtf, must’ve calculated something wrong at the end… just did 612 (10″+12) without APC Boost

edit2: apparently D1 last is +50 (+51 without perfect touch), not +47… I knew this stupid end day advance was random
Last edited by ALAKTORN on Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:06 am, edited 3 times in total.

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-STL-

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by -STL- » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:48 am

7 seconds on m5? There must be something wrong...
Jugger could get APC Boost for m5 if m6 6 secs are possible with 2 MD moves, but as i said i dont think it's enough to get m5 in 9 secs.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:54 am

-STL- wrote:7 seconds on m5? There must be something wrong...
Jugger could get APC Boost for m5 if m6 6 secs are possible with 2 MD moves, but as i said i dont think it's enough to get m5 in 9 secs.
612 without APC Boost

gonna TAS with it now

fcastro

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by fcastro » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:56 am

Jugger still needs an indirect for m4... So even if APC boost saves 1 sec it could only replace Cannon... Except if we find a way to drop def in m10 (but don't think so), has to be tested still...

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-STL-

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by -STL- » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:07 am

Well I meant using APC Boost instead of Cannon Guard because when we send 2 MD lures Jugger doesn't need it since he easyly 2HKO the Neos with 10 and 7HP Art attack.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:11 am

598 with APC Boost xD

did Jugger just save another second over Grimm? *_* I am excited

edit: I’m so scared that 420 isn’t improvable on M6 though… sure hope I can improve it :(

edit2: are you sure Jugger can do M6 without Cannon Guard, Julian? :S you’d get 7HP Arty to OHKO Mech, is that even possible?

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-STL-

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by -STL- » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:17 am

edit2: are you sure Jugger can do M6 without Cannon Guard, Julian? :S you’d get 7HP Arty to OHKO Mech, is that even possible?
That's not possible we must move both MDs 4 squares .

We could also replace Sami's Def like fidel suggest but it depends if we have room on m10.
Could you TAS it?
Sami gets Woods, APC and Dir Def
D1 build APC
D2 Load Inf, 1S6E
D3 7E, drop E
D4,D5 Capture
Without Dir Def we would need to kill the AA on Day 1.
Last edited by -STL- on Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:20 am

-STL- wrote: That's not possible we must move both MDs 4 squares
I am very sure that won’t give 6″

I’ll TAS M10

edit: I can’t move 7E and drop E, did you mean 7E drop N?

are all those skills really needed? Woods=1 alone seems like it could work…
Last edited by ALAKTORN on Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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-STL-

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by -STL- » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:29 am

We don't use a power on the map so yes both are needed and i made a mistake it's 1S6E then 7E, drop N

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:33 am

619 M10

what’s the AA killing strategy?

edit: what about swapping? :\ you didn’t tell me to swap to Sami… that makes it 659, killing AA wastes a second then <_<

edit2: I guess if we’re lucky, swapping on M9 would work, since at the end there’s not much else other than Mech suicides…
Last edited by ALAKTORN on Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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-STL-

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by -STL- » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:38 am

Don't use Defense Skill, destroy the AA on D1 and wait until Bomber and MD don't attack you after the drop.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:41 am

-STL- wrote:Don't use Defense Skill, destroy the AA on D1 and wait until Bomber and MD don't attack you after the drop.
read my edits
Last edited by ALAKTORN on Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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-STL-

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by -STL- » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:43 am

Yes if we get a low ending on m9 we could already swap there and get 10 on m10 w/o Def Skill, so it depends on the m9 ending or if you can get m6 6 secs w/o Cannon Guard.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:57 am

AA REFUSED!!!

though now I’m kind of confused, what does this mean? that we give Sami partner attack ×2, swap on M10 to hopefully still get 10″? what happens to M6 then? normal no MD movements strat?
Last edited by ALAKTORN on Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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-STL-

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by -STL- » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:00 am

Very nice, I just thought about it, we can deal enoguh counter for the AA to fear us, while it always can do 3 damage. So yes Defense skill is not required in TAS, but having all 3 refuse will be insane hard...

Edit: Yes exactly, 13 partner Attack and APC Boost + Cannon Guard for Jugger.

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ALAKTORN
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Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:09 am

sounds awesome :)

and if we’re lucky we might even be able to swap on M9 already and go for the kill AA strat

is there anything left I should test?

recap:

Jugger+Sami: APC Boost, Cannon Guard, Luck, Soul of Hachi; Partner ×2, Woods=1, APC Boost
M1 5/6 attacks for 3″
M2 obvious Bomber only strat, not sure about time
M3 I don’t know
M4 D3 4 Rockets 6″ (I guess this makes sense)
M5 Jugger solo, moving Recon once at the end, barely 9″ thanks to APC Boost
M6 no MD moves strat 6″
M7 normal Sami SCOP I guess
M8 normal 2 MDs, Tanks attacking diff MDs (maybe 1 MD and suicides is faster…?)
M9 OH GAWD
M10 either swap or not, either kill AA or not, 10″
M11 normal Sami solo, standalone record 8″
Last edited by ALAKTORN on Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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-STL-

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by -STL- » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:43 am

m1 3secs
m2 9 or 10 secs
m3 13 or 14 secs
m4 is building 4 Rockets on D3 and gives 6 secs
m5 9 secs
m6 6 or 7 secs
m7 10 secs
m8 Standalone was 8 +26 frames, so you need to find how to save 7 frames to get 8 despite the swap
m9 12 or 13 ( maybe even 10 if Rockets is on Plain???)
m10 10 secs
m11 8 secs

Total 1:34-1:39

Jugger: Luck, Hachi, Woods, APC
Sami: Woods, Partner Attack+13, Partner Def
Last edited by -STL- on Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:26 am, edited 3 times in total.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:52 am

about M8, you were talking of using Jugger and letting AI suicide when I made my standalone record… what was that about?

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-STL-

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by -STL- » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:52 am

Wait I thought m5 with APC Boost is w/o moving Recon?

I don't remember that I said that about m8, but it would require high attack (more than we have in basic) I guess.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:55 am

-STL- wrote:Wait I thought m5 with APC Boost is w/o moving Recon?
depends if AI can prefer attacking low HP APC over full HP Inf… I couldn’t get it, so I just moved the Recon, it still saves a second anyway

fcastro

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by fcastro » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:01 am

Btw a new idea: I guess the time of repair depends of the cost of the unit, so giving to Jugger a reduction cost might save time in M3 and M9... :)

edit: Btw I want Perfect Time Survival in 100 seconds! That would be awesome =)
Last edited by fcastro on Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Xenesis
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Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by Xenesis » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:11 am

Unless they sped it up in AWDS, the repair animation counts up 50G per frame.
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

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-STL-

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by -STL- » Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:18 pm

fcastro wrote:Btw a new idea: I guess the time of repair depends of the cost of the unit, so giving to Jugger a reduction cost might save time in M3 and M9... :)

edit: Btw I want Perfect Time Survival in 100 seconds! That would be awesome =)
If we would really have skill room, we would give Jugger a Defense skill rather, so the Mech can refuse to attack on m3, this way we avoid the repair completly.


Edit: Btw why did you get m5 w/o APC Boost in 612 and with it in 598? Isn't it with APC Boost a whole day faster?
Edit2: Ah right, m5 5 day strat has no supply, so supply is around 30 frames?

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:49 am

M9 strat:

Jugger/Sami: Woods=1, Luck, Hachi, APC; Woods=1, Partner ×3

D1 Mech 1S1W, Mega 1S of Rockets
D2 OHKO Tank
D3 Neo 1W1N OHKO AA, Rockets OHKO Arty, Mech OHKO AA
AI D3: http://s12.postimage.org/horqs74az/Immagine2.jpg
from here it gets random
D4 Mech OHKO Recon, Rockets OHKO Arty, Neo OHKO Recon, Mega OHKO MD
D5 Mech OHKO Recon, Neo OHKO Tank, Mega OHKO MD, Rockets OHKO S Tank
WIP
abandoned as probably slower

alternative:

D1 Mech 1S1W
D2 nothing
AI D2 suicide last 3 Tanks on Mega
D3 Rockets OHKO N Arty, S APC 2E, Neo 1W OHKO AA, N APC 2S, Mega 1W Wait
AI D3 attack nothing, N Mech moves to the S
D4 Mega OHKO Tank, Neo OHKO MD, Mech OHKO Recon, Rockets OHKO AA
AI D4 SCOP attacks nothing
D5 Mech OHKO Recon, Mega OHKO MD, Rockets OHKO Recon, Neo OHKO Arty
AI D5 MDs attack Neo
D6 Mega 1E Wait, Neo OHKO MD, Rockets OHKO remaining MD, Mech OHKO Recon Edit: wouldn’t it make more sense to OHKO with Mega instead of using Neo…?
AI D6 suicide 4 Mechs (or let Tank suicide and kill one Mech) alternative: let 1 MD suicide after the 4 Mechs
edit: even without MD or 4 Mech suicides, this gives 11″ (708 frames with 4 Mechs suicide)

Update:

Code: Select all

  Map    TAS    Human(+)
   1      2       2
   2      6       3
   3     13       4
   4      5       4
   5      8       2
   6      5       4
   7     10       2
   8      8       5
   9     11       8
  10     10       2
  11      8       1
TAS Total Time: 1:26
Human Total: 2:03

=P
Last edited by ALAKTORN on Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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-STL-

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by -STL- » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:25 am

Update:

Code: Select all

  Map    TAS    Human(+)
   1      2       2
   2      6       2
   3     13       3
   4      5       3
   5      8       2
   6      5       3
   7     10       2
   8      8       4
   9     11       8
  10     10       2
  11      8       1
TAS Total Time: 1:26
Human Total: 1:58

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