Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Talk about Advance Wars DS. Debate, laugh, cry, argue about everything to do with our favourite tag game here.
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DxDyDzD
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Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by DxDyDzD » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:23 pm

If you want to find out the absolute lowest time you need, you can try a tool-assisted speedrun like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC9vnv1jdIA
GipFace's TAS was at 25% speed. There is a way to go even faster than that: play the game frame by frame. This allows you to get extremely fast movements, way better than simply using slowdown. A simple example: Suppose you tap a unit and then tap a square that you want it to move to. How fast do you think you can do that? 0.1 seconds? By playing frame by frame you can do that in 1/30 of a second! On frame 1, you tap the unit and on frame 2, you tap the square you want to move it to. Since AWDS runs at 60fps (correct me if I'm wrong, this is the standard for most GBA/DS games), this movement takes up just 2 frames, or 1/30 of a second.
A few problems, though:
1) I do not know how to use frame advance (as it is known) on no$GBA, nor am I sure that such a function exists. On tasvideos.org, the emulator of choice is Desmume, though I can't get AWDS to run on it. But there are already TASes of DS games (like New Super Mario Bros.) there so it'll probably be just a matter of time before Time Survival is attempted...
2) The game's random number generator. I do not know how the game's RNG works exactly, like when a RN is used (e.g. How many frames before or after selecting your attack does the game pull RNs to decide the damage done? Does the game use up a RN at the start of every turn, like in Fire Emblem? Does the game spit out RNs every frame to make it seem more random, like Pokemon Emerald? Is the game's internal clock used to seed the RN?). If you need luck abuse, then you might have to delay your actions by a frame or two to get the desired RN.
3) My Time Survival score sucks (8:06 for basic run), so I can't do this on my own. In fact I was using the suboptimal Kanbei/Sonja team and not the Grimm/Koal team, and I made a lot of noobish mistakes like using the buttons only. (I'm right handed so getting a high score in real life is impossible because I can't use the touch screen with my left hand and press Menu/End with my right, everything has to be done with my right hand.)
If anyone wants to attempt this, they are going to need a lot of help-from hackers, to find out the game's mechanics/glitches, from pros (non-TAS experts), to find out the method of clearing each map with the least number of taps on the touch screen and of course to find out how to use the frame advance thing.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:53 am

that TAS you just linked was pretty cool, it would be great to see Time Survival TASed... I can tell you that TASing this game should be extremely easy, all you need is Desmume then with the press of one key you pause the game, and with the press of another you go ahead 1 frame, if I remember correctly you keep pressed down the input you want (like, you go with the mouse over a unit and keep left click pressed down) then you just advance 1 frame, and you'll have your frame-perfect input

regarding strategies, Fidelcastro should know everything, but I don't know if he'd be willing to tell them

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hawkes nightmare
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Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by hawkes nightmare » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:09 am

nice.
xenesis wrote:
hawkes nightmare wrote: i only came here because i thought there would be pudding.
That's a pretty good reason to go anywhere.
xen wrote:Prepare to receive judgment. And possibly cookies.

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-STL-

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by -STL- » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:42 am

The question is who makes the TAS? We would have the strats.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:57 am

another thing: if the TASer is experienced enough, he might be able to manipulate the RNG, but maybe Xenesis already knows something about it

Julian: maybe I could try to, but I'd need the rom with a save that has at least Grimm and Koal leveled up and the correct skills unlocked, which is the problem, I'm barely willing to TAS it so if I have to level up and unlock things I don't feel like it

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DxDyDzD
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Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by DxDyDzD » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:29 pm

You can always use AR codes to unlock those COs and skills, or download a save file with them unlocked. There shouldn't be any negative side-effects.
Strat wise, I think it's dumb not to share strats for Time Survival since it incorporates an extra element not present in normal play which takes time to master (fast tapping of the touch screen). I believe that even if the fastest strat was made public, many people would have trouble tapping the screen as quickly as possible (since a lot of people are righties, they also can't end the turn quickly), so they can't get good scores. It's a bit like a racing game: I can tell you exactly when to boost, when to start turning, etc, but good luck pulling off those maneuvers if you're not skilled. Likewise, I can just say "Move Mech 2S and attack the Neotank, then move the other Mech 2S and attack the Neotank, etc", but good luck trying to do that in 6 seconds.
Secondly, this is a TAS. I doubt cyberscore would accept a record made on an emulator so there's no need to fear losing your medals to someone who plays with frame advance.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:23 am

AR codes? you know them? personally I've never used AR codes on emulator so I don't know how to do it

and where would I find a save file?

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DxDyDzD
Rank: Blue Bomber
Location: War Room

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by DxDyDzD » Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:31 am

No, I don't know any AR codes but they shouldn't be hard to find. Google it.
Save file on GameFaqs.com. I'm not good with the emulator so I don't know how to replace your save with the downloaded one.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:50 pm

I'm sure you guys will be interested in a Time Survival TAS I'm working on, 2 seconds improvement over SwifTy in M1 done so far:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCiWGBjW_fA

I'd like comments on the strategies from Fidelcastro if possible, I can't continue this without strategies

random funny glitch: http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6158/68794926.png

AI's first moving unit turns into one of your units (the nearest?) for 1 frame or so, same thing can happen the other way around

M2 12" (3" improvement) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ2LhUIDu78

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DTaeKim
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Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by DTaeKim » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:59 am

Grimm/Koal? What forces do they have?
What can change the nature of a man?

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-STL-

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by -STL- » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:12 am

In this run
Grimm: Luck, Snow attack + 20, Dir. Att+8, Woods=1
Koal: Partner Att+8, Gold Rush, APC Boost, Soul of Hachi

fcastro

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by fcastro » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:34 am

Great. You got the strats? I sent u by cs mail.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:24 am

M3 20" (5" improvement on SwifTy): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC5QxZzeoVQ

yes I got the strategies, thanks Fidel ^^

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:20 am

I TAS'd 8" (4" improvement) on M4 but it didn't get recorded because the emulator is acting stupid ._.

edit: understood the problem, video is uploading

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhHsfgPQ9tY

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:28 am

FIDEL YOU GAVE ME A BAD STRATEGY FOR M5 ARRGGGHHH I've TAS'd it and it's a waste because I lose almost a second from APC supply, ended only 1" faster than SwifTy >__<

also I think APC Boost for Grimm would be a better skill than Brawler, it makes you finish M5 1 day faster

edit: 12" with better strategy (2" improvement), video is uploading

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:25 am


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Sven

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by Sven » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:51 am

i would just like to let you all know my basic course time is 3:14

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-STL-

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by -STL- » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:58 am

Why the trolling? Are you jealous too?

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Sven

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by Sven » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:00 pm

no need to get testy my friend

simply sharing my time to inspire others

fcastro

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by fcastro » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:56 pm

FIDEL YOU GAVE ME A BAD STRATEGY FOR M5 ARRGGGHHH I've TAS'd it and it's a waste because I lose almost a second from APC supply, ended only 1" faster than SwifTy >__<

also I think APC Boost for Grimm would be a better skill than Brawler, it makes you finish M5 1 day faster
Well I never said I sent u the final strats used by Swifty, some of them were modified during the play but I didnt take note of every move XP.
I already mentioned APC Boost as a necessary skill for Grimm, I just hope that w/o Brawler u wont face problems in M10, I'm very curious to see your achievements on that map. Also I'm waiting for your score at M7, so we'll finally know if Snow Attack is really helpful. I sent u old Swifty's strat so you can compare both. It'd be also cool to check how much time Gold Rush saved in M4...

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:20 am

well Gold Rush saves 1 day no? 1 day is almost 1 second (46~ frames TAS'd), and STL told me that I only need to move 1 more unit on the last map because of Gold Rush, and unit movement is somewhere around 20 frames, so I'd say it saves about half a second

about TAS updates: I won't be TASing anything today, and I probably won't tomorrow either, the day after tomorrow I'm also busy but I should be able to TAS something in the evening, then it's weekend so I can TAS a lot if I feel like it

edit: what do you mean about M7? you sent me SwifTy's old strategy on CS mail? where is the new one?

edit2: now I've read your posts in this topic, and I see you made a Stealth Fight strategy, is that what you mean I should compare it to? about the skills I see you were unsure, I took Brawler on STL's suggestion, but maybe APC Boost could've been better, we still have to see in the later maps how Brawler helps

about using Jugger+Koal, wouldn't that make Colin suicide a lot less in M9? I think Grimm+Koal could be the best team

about the strategies:
M1 is obvious
M2 maybe using a Piperunner could be better, but the AI would probably move away from it
M3 this is a map where I think the strategy could be improved, you haven't thought of anything Fidel?
M4 with Gold Rush seems the best to me
M5 with APC Boost and 4 days win seems best
I don't know about the next ones

fcastro

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by fcastro » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:13 am

Ok if Gold Rush saves only half a second it should probably be replaced by another partner attack, but you'll confirm that. You'll also tell me the difference between both M7 strats in terms of seconds. And for Jugger + Koal, the point is that they can do anything Grimm+Koal can do and also little improvements (iirc the point was to kill Neos by one shot in sand map), but ofc with insane luck. Thanks Jugger's bad luck I dont think that would reduce the possibilities of suicides in M9 (while the probabilities would certainly drop) but I hope you'll prove it wrong.
Btw, will you make a real run later? I know you can play fast, so maybe with training and new strats you could finally beat Swifty... =O

PS: For M3 I dont remember at all, but indeed there could be better strat => STL's work ;-)

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:34 am

mhm, I guess M9 will take some time for tests...

where do you think another partner attack could help? I'm not good at math so I can't calculate anything...

about a real run, I plan on doing that after I finish my TAS and the strategies are perfected, but I doubt I'll be able to beat SwifTy... for reference, I got 25" on M3 following the Basic Course strategy, but I used defense+8 (so Mech made always 2HP damage only) and I didn't swap to Koal which saves about a second I think... so, on a Basic Course run, I guess I would get around 28", if the strategies aren't improved by a decent amount compared to SwifTy's, I won't be able to beat him

the problem about M3 is the 5HP Mech, if it weren't for the luck you need on his attack I could probably get a 26" on a Basic Course run

edit: got M2 19" after 2 tries... I posted that I got 16 here, I want to try to get it again...

17" third try, but that felt fast >_< I'm stopping, that's good enough, buttons are very good here, I do D1 buttons, D2 buttons+stylus, D3 stylus+buttons, and then always buttons

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:02 am

I wanted to TAS M6 but when I came to it, I saw I don't like SwifTy's strategy, I don't feel like TASing that... doesn't anyone of you have better ideas for a strat? I tried using only the Arts and putting MDs as decoy for the cannons, it works, but I didn't test it enough to see if it was faster, it probably wasn't, destroying a cannon could be another idea but that wastes about 2 seconds so it would be hard to make it faster... I'll keep trying to see if I can think of anything

edit: oh my god... I think I might've found a trick that makes you go a lot faster O_o and it is... turning off the in-game music!!!! I just got this with it: http://cyberscore.net/chart-18566.php within 2 tries (my first try was 9" too if I didn't miss an attack) while my best with music on is 11" :D

edit2: I've played M1 without music but no changes there... I could get 5" with a great run but not 4"... maybe it's because the map is too short, I could try M3 but it's boring

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samurai goroh
Location: Red Canyon hideout

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by samurai goroh » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:00 am

So, music causes delay? nice find alaktorn

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:42 am

samurai goroh wrote:So, music causes delay? nice find alaktorn
well, it hasn't been proved at all, but it seems very likely from the time I got... I still have to test it, wanted to find the time address on emulator and see what happens with music on/off, but I'm not sure I'll be able to find it... I might try to test it this evening

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samurai goroh
Location: Red Canyon hideout

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by samurai goroh » Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:22 am

ALAKTORN wrote:
samurai goroh wrote:So, music causes delay? nice find alaktorn
well, it hasn't been proved at all, but it seems very likely from the time I got... I still have to test it, wanted to find the time address on emulator and see what happens with music on/off, but I'm not sure I'll be able to find it... I might try to test it this evening
Don't worry, I believe this is the address you where looking ;)
02189394 It starts from 0 & increases once per frame, every 60 frames equals 1 second.

I believe that it has 2 frames of delay (with respect of the timer on screen), that's why it took me a while to find it...

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:29 am

thanks a lot for the address :) I've made some tests but nothing seems to point that music off is faster... x_x well at least now I can TAS better with the timer address xD

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DxDyDzD
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Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by DxDyDzD » Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:20 pm

Excellent, the videos will help me if I get to doing Time Survival. I really hope you finish this, so that we can know the absolute minimum time for Survival (Money and Turn have already been optimized).
As for the music causing delays, I think that's because the touch screen may "turn off" and become unresponsive to commands during certain frames, so you lose time while waiting for those frames. In real life those frames would have a really small effect though.

Some general tidbits:
How fast can you end your turn? I think you may be able to clear naval maps quickly by always ending and waiting for your opponent's units to sink. But maybe it'll only be useful if you're aiming for fastest time on a single map only, with Drake and Olaf to help cut fuel. But that leads to the second problem:
How much time does using a COP/SCOP/Tag/switching take up? The Drake/Olaf Tag may eat up more time than finishing the map with a simple strategy.

Also, lol@resupply...Money Survival Map 3 had the enemy kill one of your units to avoid losing money from repairs.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:36 am

your ideas are bad because from the "DAY #" thing to being able to input anything you lose almost 1 second, ending days is not always a good thing, COP/SCOP/TAG time depends on what you're doing, Rachel's SCOP will take a lot more than Grimm's for example, but just the animation of the powers it should be about: COP 2 seconds, SCOP 3 seconds, TAG 4 seconds, approximatively, switching is also 1 second

edit: for the original question "how much to end turn": 3 frames (open menu, 1 frame of delay, end day)

for M6 I guess I'll TAS SwifTy's strat since no ideas are coming in

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:13 pm

Fidel, can you re-send me the message with the strategies? maybe by PM here on WWN, since CS is closed for now...

about TAS updates- I'm sorry I haven't done anything in the past days, but be sure I'll finish it (though I doubt you could call the time I'll get maxed), I was just busy with real-time highscoring of this game =P

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DxDyDzD
Rank: Blue Bomber
Location: War Room

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by DxDyDzD » Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:05 pm

You mean just cancelling the DAY # takes 1 second? That's pretty long.
You mentioned "finding frames" in your video descriptions, what does that mean? Is it finding the frames where the random number would cause a favourable outcome? If so, how do you find them? Trial and error? Or do you already know the memory location where the random number is stored?
You seem to know the skills required for tool-assisted speedruns so I thought you might be able to get Fortress Isle 2/300 on an emulator. I believe the only problem stopping this from being done in real life is that the odds of both Infantry v. Tank suicides are very low. On an emulator, using both frame advance and this "finding frames" thing, you may be able to achieve the impossible.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:16 pm

yes, the DAY # alone takes 1 second

about the find frames thing, I said "had a terrible finding about frames" with which I meant that if # frame let's you press and #-1 doesn't, it doesn't mean that # is the correct frame but it could also be #-2 (don't ask me why)

about FI 2/300 I don't know if there could be any address that would help a TAS making it... other than testing each frame by trial and error I can't think of how else to do it, and that would take forever, remember that even if you found the frame on which all the attacks happen, it won't mean the RNG will seed different numbers each time you reload- meaning you have to find the frame on which they attack and die at the same time

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samurai goroh
Location: Red Canyon hideout

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by samurai goroh » Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:34 pm

I don't know what is the strategy for Fortress Isle in 2 days, but the address you would need are the HP for every unit (both yours & your rivals') and the RNG.

If manipulating the RNG works like it did in Advance Wars 2, then you can just wobble the cursor (when selecting a unit) to change it. Though you would probably want to find how the RNG is created, so that you can see if you can get favorable manipulation or nor...

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:27 am

the problem is that I have no idea how to search for the RNG address... finding AI's HPs shouldn't be hard, but I don't think it would be very useful

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samurai goroh
Location: Red Canyon hideout

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by samurai goroh » Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:24 am

I'm on the same boat for the RNG. Though, with the search tools the DS has, it shouldn't be that hard to find it, I believe. (The hard part is to understand it)

I have the Addresses for the HP of all the units, though I haven't really tested them :P
As in other AW games, the address is mixed with the unit's rounds, so you might need to ignore the MSB (just rest 128 if the number is higher than 100...)
http://sites.google.com/site/samuraigor ... Scodes.txt


BTW, here's the RNG for AW2, quoted from the movie description:
Luck manipulation
The RNG for this game is at 03001fd4-03001fd7. It can only be manipulated by one of these two actions:

* When choosing which enemy to attack, every delay advances the RNG 3 times.
* When moving a unit, walking diagonally advances the RNG 1 time (similar to the Fire Emblem RNG).

fcastro

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by fcastro » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:29 am

It's hardly understandable for me but could you really check if Fortress Isle can be made by 2 days? Samuraigoroh if u dont find the strat in old posts we can repeat it, for NB the luck was estimated at 1 to 20000 and for 2.0 at something unbelievable, it'd be cool to know if at least this one is in fact impossible, anyway we already decided to ban these scores...

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samurai goroh
Location: Red Canyon hideout

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by samurai goroh » Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:56 pm

Guess this is the strat for 2 days, right?

So, what's the catch here? Doing maximum damage is "simple" (maybe is tedious but there's not much science).

If you need to counter many units, then that's more annoying, but I think still manageable.

But, if you need the enemy to attack & counter with a kill (several occasions), then it might really be impossible to do, even with TAS tools (the RNG won't be favorable no matter what you do, as DxDyDzD explains)...


BTW, to stay on-topic, how is the run ALAKTORN?

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by ALAKTORN » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:33 pm

well I've been playing games for high scores myself lately (check DoR forum) so I haven't had much time for the TAS... but I'll finish it, that's for sure

in the meantime ideas for M6 would be good =P

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-STL-

Re: Time Survival High Scores & Strategy

Post by -STL- » Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:01 pm

samurai goroh wrote:Guess this is the strat for 2 days, right?

So, what's the catch here? Doing maximum damage is "simple" (maybe is tedious but there's not much science).

If you need to counter many units, then that's more annoying, but I think still manageable.

But, if you need the enemy to attack & counter with a kill (several occasions), then it might really be impossible to do, even with TAS tools (the RNG won't be favorable no matter what you do, as DxDyDzD explains)...


BTW, to stay on-topic, how is the run ALAKTORN?
Ofc is a everything on our turn possible. It´s just about Enemy turn.
Here´s more info about F1,0
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=247&start=1720#p327885
As you see you don´t need exact an RNG anywhere so FI 1,0 is surely posssible, but 2,0 (with 4 way harder suicides) mostlikely not.

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