Normal Campaign TAS WIP

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by ALAKTORN » Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:00 pm

topic to discuss TAS strategies for NC

C1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w4eci_i02A
Last edited by ALAKTORN on Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DxDyDzD
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Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by DxDyDzD » Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:10 pm

Yay NC!

Mission 2 should be easy, since you need 6 attacks to destroy all 3 Artillery it should take 4 days min. to complete (since the westmost Artillery can't attack anything on D1). And since min. damage is 5HP there shouldn't be any luck involved.
By moving the west Artillery 1E, other Artillery attack on D1 it should be a piece of cake.
If Rachel bugs you about the 1HP Inf IIRC you can make it wait instead of loading it.

Mission 3: Don't move anything other than the T-Cop and Inf, should also be easy.

Mission 4: Shoot down the south Fighter with 2 AAs. Attack the Bomber and Fighter with the other 2 AAs. Kill the Tank with the Rockets and Tank.
A loaded T-Copter should be enough incentive for the Fighter to expose itself to your Missiles.
The Missiles may be more trouble than they're worth since the Bomber would want to attack them, though.

You can use skills from Mission 5 onwards unless CO select is forced, so I dunno if you want to grind for them first.
Mission 5: A D2D is difficult, but Rachel is probably the best choice. With her COP and savestate abuse you can probably beat up everything with Infs/Recons.

Could you give some specifics on the restrictions of the TAS? For example, do you want 300 points for each map? Do you want to use skills (will you count grinding time also if they're necessary)? Single-segment or multi-segment (most TASes are single, but with multi it's easier to abuse luck)?

Good luck with this TAS anyhow!

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by ALAKTORN » Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:58 pm

the only goal: real-time fastest possible completion

which means using everything I can to beat the maps ASAP, no matter the score or days maps take

on M2 you must move both Inf and APC, my strategy is to move Inf 1S so it doesn't get supplied by City which wastes time and simply make the APC Wait, the Tanks are killed by the Arty only in 4D like you said, but there might be a better strategy than using the City Arty each day since it means it gets supplied which wastes time

M3: there might be a better strategy that doesn't let AI waste too much time with movements

M4: this one will require some testing to see which units is better to attack/destroy and bait

M5: oh my god

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by GipFace » Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:16 pm

most TASes are single, but with multi it's easier to abuse luck
What? In a TAS, if you don't get the desirable outcome, you rerecord. Multisegment only matters in a regular speedrun.

STL

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by STL » Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:23 pm

[quote="GipFace"][i]most TASes are single, but with multi it's easier to abuse luck[/i]
What? In a TAS, if you don't get the desirable outcome, you rerecord. Multisegment only matters in a regular speedrun.[/quote]

As usual you talk w/o knowing anything. Luck abuse requires frame to waste, in multi-segment you may waste some less. But yeah sure you waste way more by restarting the game.


C2: Day 1 attack Tank, move Art 1E, Day 2 kill Tank, move City Art 2W, Day3/4 kill them

C3: Arty 3W, APC 4W, that way the Tanks can´t come in

Btw playing with music just for entertain reasons fails it will waste 2-3 minutes in the end.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by ALAKTORN » Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:50 pm

the movie will end up being about 1 hour long, 2-3 minutes are nothing compared to the boredom no music would be

I didn't understand what DxD meant with SS and multi so I ignored it, but I think Gip is right, TAS loads savestates to eliminate errors, not sure how you'd apply multi segment there

C1 will have to be redone because I found out 2 important tricks: AI's attacks take less time than ours, meaning suicides are better (not 100% sure of this), and you can skip AI's firing 'animation', which saves 30 frames

thanks for the C2 strat Julian, sounds good

by the way, I also found the RNG address, I want your help understanding it, Julian

edit: found out another trick: STYLUS SUCKS. I've always been TASing everything with the stylus, but it loses 1 frame with each action, buttons are better for everything :X

best input table:
selecting square: stylus = obviously faster
selecting adjacents square: L+stylus = 2 frames faster because it avoids lag (?) new: L+A, saves 1 frame over stylus, neither produce lag
after dialogue select: buttons = 1 frame faster
selecting square+standing still: stylus+A (on the same frame) = 2 frames faster
selecting where to move: stylus+A (on the same frame) = 1 frame faster
dropping: stylus+A (on the same frame) = 1 frame faster
selecting Wait, Fire, Load, etc: stylus or buttons
attacking after Fire: buttons = 1 frame faster
menu: stylus+buttons, first stylus touch must press something, just moving cursor loses time (edit: actually it's the same speed if you end day with stylus+select, then press A, this glitches the cursor too), turning off animations is stylus-A-stylus-A
Last edited by ALAKTORN on Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:06 pm, edited 9 times in total.

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ALAKTORN
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Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by ALAKTORN » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:25 am

also I am re-thinking the goals, what should the TAS aim for? at first I wanted fastest real time, but maybe always 300pts could be a nice goal? or fewest in game turns

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by ALAKTORN » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:26 am

C1 improved with better optimization and new strategy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QGJ84A56-8

STL

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by STL » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:42 am

2-3 minutes are much for TAS standards. Imagine you miss a sub by it or someone reTAS´s it and beats you w/o music D::
You wanna TAS everything yourself and i shall just help with strats?

In C1, the fastest strat is that Inf attacks your Tank and then suicides into your Mech w/o the need for you to move it?

About the input table, what exactly is Attacking after Fire? And moving the Cursor 1 square is still the same by stylus or buttons right?

I think you should really go for fastest real time, maybe for all 300s to make it look cooler but definitly not fastest ingame turns. Some maps would waste a lot of time for fastest turn like when you need to charge TAGs or so. Also some are not doable w/o skills in fastest turns like C5 already. And what would you do if you finish CX in Xturns and later find out that it´s possible to finish it in X-1 turns w/o skills or with better leveling or so. Then you would have broken your own rule. Then you would either need to ReTAS or drop the rule and live with the time you wasted in the previous maps.

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by GipFace » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:04 am

As usual you talk w/o knowing anything. Luck abuse requires frame to waste, in multi-segment you may waste some less. But yeah sure you waste way more by restarting the game.

lolololol as usual you didn't touch yourself enough at night

tasvideos.org would never accept 28 different videos

And if you're tasing, if it's not accepted on tasvideos.org, you're just wasting your time. "fastest possible" tas runs are routinely rejected on tasvideos.org because they aren't entertaining enough.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by ALAKTORN » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:07 am

STL wrote:About the input table, what exactly is Attacking after Fire? And moving the Cursor 1 square is still the same by stylus or buttons right?
after you select Fire, you either have to press A or touch the target with the stylus, that's what I mean, pressing A is 1 frame faster; moving to an adjacent square is the same stylus or buttons, which is why my Frozen Pipes TAS is improvable by only 6 frames, meaning it won't be improved by 1 second for 1 frame :(

also, I'm currently working on C1 v.3, 20~ frames improvement due to better movement order, moving the Mech (or Tank) as last makes the Rachel dialogue of "you moved all your units!" trigger inside the Tank's explosion animation, making it skippable without wasting any time

it does now take 17 wait frames to manipulate the Inf attacking the Tank instead of 11, though, and the Tank goes down to 7HP, so it might not be worth it in the end eidt: actually, I think I can't even kill with 7HP… fudge

I still have to test things such as: attacking with Tank last, and properly testing if Inf suicide is really faster or not

about the music thing, Gip's right, this is a Campaign TAS which has no value if TASVideos.org doesn't want to publish it, and if they like music on I'll TAS with music on

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by GipFace » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:44 am

I suggest you start a thread on the tasvideos.org forum, since getting input from non-AW enthusiasts is important.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by ALAKTORN » Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:04 am

GipFace wrote:I suggest you start a thread on the tasvideos.org forum, since getting input from non-AW enthusiasts is important.
there's already a 3 pages long thread opened by me actually, but other than posting videos there hasn't been much discussion about what the goals should be and everything

edit: so yeah Inf suiciding on Mech is much faster than Mech kill, about 40 frames I think (my test was bad because Inf didn't suicide but kept 1HP :X still I was in time to kill it next turn and be about 2 frames slower than I was by killing it myself…)

the other thing to test is Inf on Tank, but I bet that's also much faster

does anyone know if the Inf attack on Tank is less likely if Tank has 100%HP? the strategy should be final now, I just need to manipulate that Inf properly

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DxDyDzD
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Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by DxDyDzD » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:57 am

Single segment means you have to do everything in one shot and time taken is counted from first button input to last button input. Multi-segment means you can, for example, finish one map, save, and continue later, without counting the break time. Maybe change the internal clock to abuse luck or something (if that works). So that's what STL means by "multi-segment wastes less time". Mutli-segment can lead to shorter times but if you want tasvideos to accept your submission then you must do a single-segment run.
As for playing without music, look at it this way: you're already playing without animations, right? Personally, if not playing with music saves time I would, but since your submission's success is dictated by the likings of the tasvideos members, do as they please.

Also, I feel that the run may be easier on you if you opt for either a "no skills" or "300 points" goal. Since skills unlock at certain EXP levels (which are based on your score for a mission), It would suck if you suddenly find out that you need a certain skill, but can't use it because your level was not high enough, because some random mission all the way back was not 300'ed.
One question, do any of the missions require Black Boats, Neotanks or Black Bombs? If they do, you must figure out whether unlocking those missions or playing without the units takes less time. Or you could just change your goals to "all secret maps unlocked". :D

edit:
For C2, STL's idea works well. I should add that on Day 3, you should shoot both Tanks down to 3/4/5HP without killing them so that they join next turn. Otherwise they will run outside your Artillery attack range.
For C3, move APC 1N on Day 1. The enemy Tank will attack from the HQ, so Lash cannot capture it on the same turn. It's faster than moving the Art and APC. Moving the Mech/BCop to that spot uses more time since there are more squares to cover, and moving the Art to that spot makes the APC resupply it next turn.
I think loading the east Mech onto the APC may save some time also, since the Tanks will not be able to attack anything on Day 5.

To bring up the menu you can press Start right? It's faster than moving to an empty square.
Also, one more trick: pressing L moves to another unmoved unit, it may be faster than stylus or D-pad if that unit is located in some far-off corner of the map. E.g.: Snow Hunters, if you want the lab map, the city is located in the east, but most of the action takes place in the west.

STL

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by STL » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:52 pm

So have you now clearly decided to keep music on? If you worry about entertain reasons look at the AW1 TAS =P ANd as you are a speedrunner too i´m sure you are most entertained by a much low total time as possible =P

DxDyDzD´s suggestion of using no skills at all sounds good. It would really be painful to find out 10 maps later if we would have unlocked a certain skill for a certain CO we could save a lot of time. Else we basically need to plan the whole TAS before starting to TAS the maps where you can select a CO.

About C2 the worst scenario is that the Tanks have 4 and 6HP left which still makes them join.

On C3 the goal was to totally block the Tank from coming into your area and therefore moving on the last days. Either way i couldn´t get that strat to rework as the MD moved b4 the 2nd Inf now and killed my APC. You could move the APC 1 square less west to avoid the supply, but then you would need the Infs to have 9 or less luck over 6 attacks on your Art... If you want to go for 300 anyway you should use B-Cops to block and kill an Inf.

Opening the menu is with select not start as start opens that map overview thingy.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by ALAKTORN » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:10 am

STL wrote:So have you now clearly decided to keep music on? If you worry about entertain reasons look at the AW1 TAS =P ANd as you are a speedrunner too i´m sure you are most entertained by a much low total time as possible =P

DxDyDzD´s suggestion of using no skills at all sounds good. It would really be painful to find out 10 maps later if we would have unlocked a certain skill for a certain CO we could save a lot of time. Else we basically need to plan the whole TAS before starting to TAS the maps where you can select a CO.
the AW1 glitched TAS has been refused before because it wasn't entertaining enough

my idea was to stop TASing and plan the whole strategy once we unlock skills and COs, actually, "it would be a pain to later find out" isn't a good reason to have different goals, the harder a TAS the more entertaining it is; every single RPG/strategic game TAS is planned with level ups into consideration

I should be able to work some more on C1 today and try to manipulate luck as best as I can

STL

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by STL » Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:42 am

Fine sounds good, it just seemed to me you wanted to TAS directly and go map by map. Using more room for strategy is always good ofc^^

So what about 300 rule? Yes or no?

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by ALAKTORN » Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:49 am

I have no idea, I'm for no but I got no replies at tasvideos.org, also the first 2 maps can be done in 300 without losing time so it's not a problem until I get to C3, which will take a while because I have no idea how to manipulate luck properly and it's needed in C1

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by ALAKTORN » Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:52 am

C1 v.3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w4eci_i02A

2468 frames, 34 frames improvement due to the new trick and better manipulation, only 6 frames used for that, I believe the strategy is now perfect so the only possible improvement is better manipulation, which means no more than 6 frames improvable

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DxDyDzD
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Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by DxDyDzD » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:20 pm

Mission 3/4 strats:

M3 (Is this the same as STL's?) 200 points
D1: Tcop 2S 4W, load Mech. Art 3W.
D2: Tcop 1S 3W, APC 4W. Tcop must survive enemy turn.
(Note: If you move the APC 3W instead to prevent supplying, both Infs will attack the Art. That's when you need a lot of luck to survive.)
D3: Tcop 5S 1W, drop. (Try testing whether dropping by stylus or buttons is faster.)
D4: Mech caps HQ.
D5: Finish HQ cap.
Now I think STL's strat is better than mine as his completely prevents the HQ capture animation, so you waste much less time.

M4 300 points, obviously
D1: Missiles kill Fighter. Rocket attacks Tank. E AA 4N, kill Tank. Mid AA 3N, attack Bomber (9-2). W AA 2N 1E, attack Fighter.
D2: N AA 2N 4W, kill Fighter. S AA 1S 3E, kill Bomber. 9HP AA 4N, kill Bcop.
The AA vs Bomber must end 9-2 so that you can OHKO the enemy B-Copter with the 9HP AA.
Also, I move the west AA 2N 1E instead of 1N, so that the B-Copter cannot attack the Rockets.

I've saved at Mission 5.

STL

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by STL » Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:59 am

I already made a m4 strat. Dx, you forget to keep Enemy movement low as it wastes time too.

D1: Missiles destroy B-Cop, AAs attack Fighters and Bomber each. Rockets 1N (This is to prevent Bomber attacking it)
Then on Enemy day it would be best if the Bomber suicides and the Tank moves 1N and attacks the AA so you can 1HKO it with rockets. But that requires luck so it might cost less frames if it doesn´t move and you 2HKO it.

And i won´t look at m3 again until the 300 question is solved.

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DxDyDzD
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Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by DxDyDzD » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:49 pm

Looks like STL beat me for the M4 strat.
Got a pretty good M5 strat. Let me know what you think.

M5 6/300 Rachel, no skills
All builds are from the north base.
Mech refers to N Mech.

Day 1:
Move Mech 1N. Build Tank.

Day 2:
Move Tank 1N 5E, attack Recon (10-4). Build Artillery.

Day 3:
Move Artillery 1N 4E, move Mech 2E, move Tank 1E and attack AA (9-4). Build AA.

Enemy Day 3:
Md. Tank attacks Tank (10-3). AA moves to 1E of Mech.

Day 4:
Artillery attacks Md. Tank (10-5), Mech kills AA, AA 1N 5E. Build Recon.

Enemy Day 4:
Recon attacks Mech (4-6). Md. Tank attacks Tank, Tank has 3HP left.

Day 5:
Artillery kills M. Tank, Mech 1N 1E kills Recon. Tank 1S 1E, attack Mech (2-8). AA 3E, kill Mech. Recon 1E. build Recon.

Day 6:
Artillery 1W, kill Mech with both Recons. SCOP. 2HP Tank kills Artillery, AA and Mech kill Tank.

Comments:
Both Koal and Rachel will activate SCOP, which wastes time.
It's possible to get the Tank destroyed on Day 3 so that it doesn't waste time repairing, but you have one less Tank to use...
The Mech can't solo the Tank because it's out of ammo (I think so, haven't calculated yet). It needs the AA to knock off some HP first.
I think rout is faster than HQ capture since the capturing animation takes time, and capturing means you have to burn 5000G for the APC.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by ALAKTORN » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:24 pm

using Rachel's SCOP sounds like a very bad idea though, it takes about 7 seconds

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DxDyDzD
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Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by DxDyDzD » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:16 pm

New M5 strat, this time using Rachel's COP instead. It requires a lot of luck so I haven't been able to recreate it on a DS. I only got as far as Day 4. The Md. Tank kill requires practically perfect luck rolls.
CO is Rachel, no skills. As usual "Mech" refers to the north one unless stated otherwise, and all builds are from the north base unless stated otherwise.

Day 1:
Move Mech 1N, build Tank.

Day 2:
Tank 1N 5E attack Recon (must do 5 damage only, otherwise the Recon doesn't attack the Mech on Day 3). Build Art.

Day 3:
Tank 1E attack AA (9-5, so that the AA can kill the Tank), Mech 2E, Art 1N 4E. Build Tank.

Enemy Day 3:
Md. Tank and AA must destroy Tank. Recon must attack Mech (it always does 4HP damage, so no worries).

Day 4:
Art attack Md. Tank, Tank 1N 5E destroy Recon, Mech 1N attack AA. Build AA.

Enemy Day 4:
Md. Tank must not retreat, it should destroy the Mech from the road.

Day 5:
Art destroy Md. Tank, Tank 1S 5E destroy AA, AA 1N 5E. South Mech 2E. Build Recon south.

Day 6:
COP, Art destroy road Mech, AA destroy city Mech, Tank destroy Art. Mech and Recon destroy Tank.
(I don't know if the Art will go onto plains or road. If it doesn't, i.e. it moves onto the HQ or a city, then killing it in 1 day is impossible.)

A few calcs: (Only max damage is shown)
Artillery attempting to destroy Md. Tank
100 Att 10HP Art vs 100 Def 10HP Road Md. Tank: 54%
100 Att 10HP Art vs 110 Def 5HP Road Md. Tank: 48%

Day 6 kills
110 Att 10HP AA with 39 max luck vs 100 Def 10HP City Mech: 108%
110 Att 10HP Tank with 39 max luck vs 100 Def 10HP Plains Art: 104%

South Tank kill (enemy HP doesn't matter since it's on a road)
100 Att 5HP Mech vs 100 Def Road Tank: 32%
110 Att 5HP Mech with 39 max luck vs 100 Def Road Tank: 49%
110 Att 10HP Recon with 39 max luck vs 100 Def Road Tank: 45%

Translucent Air

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by Translucent Air » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:16 pm

Since my previous best for "Neverending War" was 7 days with either Jake or Rachel, I rather like DxDyDzD's first strategy in terms of perfect earliest day completion with no skills: it goads Koal into using his Trail of Woe to bring his distant tank towards Rachel's forces early and then highlights Rachel's Covering Fire, allowing her to defeat Koal with her tattered units. In particular, it clearly differentiates Rachel's CO capabilities from Jake's in regard to this mission.

Disregarding any restrictions on number of frames, in terms of reproducibility, the strategy has a number of flaws as it relies on a high number of specific uncontrollable attack outcomes that aren't exactly the most common, especially regarding the enemy medium tank. However, by bringing the southern mech into the fray, virtually all of these can be eliminated, and the only remaining finicky action is the enemy anti-air movement on Day 3 (as it sometimes prefers to attack the allied tank). After initially being attacked by a mech and a subsequent Covering Fire on Day 6, the shoestring 1HP enemy tank can be easily destroyed by the other mech, or even a crippled anti-air, and the full 1HP artillery can be destroyed by a hardy tank.
DxDyDzD wrote:Looks like STL beat me for the M4 strat.
Got a pretty good M5 strat. Let me know what you think.

M5 6/300 Rachel, no skills
All builds are from the north base.
Mech refers to N Mech.

Day 1:
Move Mech 1N. Build Tank.

Day 2:
Move Tank 1N 5E, attack Recon (10-4). Build Artillery.

Day 3:
Move Artillery 1N 4E, move Mech 2E, move Tank 1E and attack AA (9-4). Build AA.

Enemy Day 3:
Md. Tank attacks Tank (10-3). AA moves to 1E of Mech.

Day 4:
Artillery attacks Md. Tank (10-5), Mech kills AA, AA 1N 5E. Build Recon.

Enemy Day 4:
Recon attacks Mech (4-6). Md. Tank attacks Tank, Tank has 3HP left.

Day 5:
Artillery kills M. Tank, Mech 1N 1E kills Recon. Tank 1S 1E, attack Mech (2-8). AA 3E, kill Mech. Recon 1E. build Recon.

Day 6:
Artillery 1W, kill Mech with both Recons. SCOP. 2HP Tank kills Artillery, AA and Mech kill Tank.

Comments:
Both Koal and Rachel will activate SCOP, which wastes time.
It's possible to get the Tank destroyed on Day 3 so that it doesn't waste time repairing, but you have one less Tank to use...
The Mech can't solo the Tank because it's out of ammo (I think so, haven't calculated yet). It needs the AA to knock off some HP first.
I think rout is faster than HQ capture since the capturing animation takes time, and capturing means you have to burn 5000G for the APC.
-Translucent Air

that DxDyDzD

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by that DxDyDzD » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:37 pm

I wrote that strategy for the TAS so I wanted to make as few movements as possible. Hence, the south Mech was just left there. But yes, with the support of the south Mech, it's easier to rout since it can reach the enemy Tank within 6 days.
The Tank 2-8ing the Mech is also vital: if the Tank has 3HP you can't SCOP (except maybe if the Recon vs Mech ends 5-5, but that's pretty unlikely too) and if the Tank has 1HP you can't OHKO the Artillery. Although 1HP Tank+ 1HP AA does 10HP total, so you could reallocate the attacks (South Mech kills Tank, Tank+AA kill Art).
fcastro has 5 days, but I'm sure he used skills as STL said that min. time is not doable without them.

BTW: In Campaign, the Technique limit is 20% instead of 10%, which is why losing 1/7 still leads to full Tech.

Translucent Air

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by Translucent Air » Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:11 pm

DxDyDzD, I am aware you wrote the strategy with the intent of ALAKTORN's goals in mind, which I why I made clear that my comments were to be taken "in terms of perfect earliest day completion with no skills" and "[d]isregarding any restrictions on number of frames."

While ALAKTORN (and -STL-)'s goals focus on wringing out every last bit of optimization to showcase skill, as a old hat walkthrough writer, I prefer reproducibility to allow others accessibility and the ability to recreate the scores easily. While a number of the specific outcomes you just listed may be necessary if the second allied mech is not brought in, none of them are necessary if the second mech is used. You can easily allow the second allied mech to attack the southern enemy mech on Day 5, allowing the allied tank reprieve to repair instead; additionally, by attacking the enemy tank with either allied mech on Day 6, you will still charge the Rachel's Covering Fire, allowing for decimation of Koal's forces.

Despite taking the time to note reproducibility improvements, I was commending you on the strategy; I thought it was a neat way to trick the AI into an early defeat and showcase Rachel as a CO.

-Translucent Air

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DxDyDzD
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Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by DxDyDzD » Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:59 pm

No offense intended, dude. I was explaining why the south Mech should not be moved in the context of a lowest-frame run. Moving the south Mech would be a flaw in a TAS but on a console, it'd be foolish not to make use of this asset.
As lowest-day strategies go I thought it was a nice change from the usual HQ capturing, but when you're staring down a predeployed Md. Tank whose defeat pretty much means "you win", it would be faster to destroy the Md. Tank and clean up than to destroy it, then attempt a HQ capture. Rachel's SCOP makes the cleanup trivial.

On the subject of the TAS I looked at M6. It can be done in 5 days by HQ capture just by moving the B-Copter, Infantry and Lander: while transporting the capturing Infantry, the B-Copter destroys the Rockets, and the enemy Tank and Infantry are loaded and whisked off Lash's HQ island.
It can be done in fewer days by rout. IIRC STL finished in 3 days. The question is, which method results in a lower frame count?

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by ALAKTORN » Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:38 am

I appreciate all the help, DxDyDzD! I can't comment much on the strategies by just reading them, but C5 with COP is certainly better than SCOP

regarding the TAS, I've been sick yesterday and still am, so I don't feel much like TASing, I still have 1 or 2 things I want to try for C1, after that I'll do C2

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DxDyDzD
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Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by DxDyDzD » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:25 am

Thanks ALAKTORN.
You may find the M5 TAS strategy easier to understand if you play my strat with SCOP first. The TAS strat is just a modification of it, using COP and lots of luck.
Next I have the M6 3/300 strat. It's a win by rout, so you won't waste time waiting for the HQ capture animations. Also, neither player activates powers - Lash attempts to save up for a SCOP but you rout her before she can activate it.
The ingenious part is killing a loaded Lander, taking down the Inf and Tank with it.
While killing units may take up time, those units are removed from the map, so the enemy takes less time to move her remaining units.

M6 3/300

Day 1:
Bship & Rockets kill Cruiser.
BCop and Cruiser destroy Sub. (Attack with the BCop first to increase the chance of the Cruiser surviving Day 1.)
Sub 5E.
Lander wait. (Sasha will bug you about it.)

Enemy Day 1:
Your Cruiser must survive. (If it doesn't, the map may still be completed, but you'll have to move your BCop further to chase down the Rockets.)
The enemy units must be arranged like so:

Code: Select all

   BSH
   LND

      INF
   TNK
RCK
Day 2:
Sub 3N 2E, attack Lander.
BCop 2S, attack Rockets.
Rockets 1N 2E.
Bship 3N 2E.

Day 3:
Bship kills Lander.
Rockets and Sub kill Bship.
BCop kills Rockets.

M7 is next. It's pretty easy since the BCop can destroy everything, although I need the Anti-Air to speed things up a bit. I'll try doing it without the AA.
Rout seems feasible too (the Lander can be destroyed by Rockets+2 BCop attacks, or just 2 Rocket attacks), but I haven't worked anything yet. Trapping the Lander will be a problem.

Have a good rest!

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by ALAKTORN » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:58 am

that pic is awesome XDDDDD

about M7, using more than just the BC could help, if using another unit saves a few days it's probably better
DxDyDzD wrote:Have a good rest!
thanks :)

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-STL-

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by -STL- » Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:00 pm

better C2 strat

D1 both Artys 1E, D2 hit both to 4HP, D3 hit them to 2 and 4HP, D4 kill the last Tank

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by ALAKTORN » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:09 pm

looks perfect now, Julian

Julian was trying C3 rout in 3 days so I joined in, and was able to rout everything up to the last 3HP MD Tank… so close, yet so far, I wonder if it's possible and if it is if it's faster…

edit: 4HP Tank now… it doesn't want to suicide >_____<

2HP Tank!!!!!! MY GOD IT CAN'T END LIKE THIS

sadness, man

Image

why does the map here show an Inf? I have a Mech http://www.warsworldnews.com/index.php? ... dsncm3.php

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DxDyDzD
Rank: Blue Bomber
Location: War Room

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by DxDyDzD » Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:24 pm

I don't think routing is faster since you have to move the B-Copters all over the place. HQ Capture should be quicker. It would be interesting to see a 4-day rout on a console, though.
Also, the pic shows Day 4. So is 3 days impossible?

I confirmed STL's C4 2/300 on the DS. A lot of luck is required for Jugger's negative luck to screw his attacks (Tank v. AA ended 5-9).
The Bomber should suicide on the middle AA, as it doesn't move when doing so, saving you time. Also, this means that the full-health south AA can OHKO the Fighter without having to move.

Next strategy: M7 6/300 by HQ Capture

Day 1:
Load Mech onto APC. APC 3S 3E, drop E. Load Inf onto APC.
Recon attacks Art from E, BCop destroy Art from N.
Tank 4S 2E.
AA 5S 1E.

Day 2:
Recon 1N 5E.
BCop 1N 4E, attack Tank (10-5).
Tank 1N 3E, attack Recon.
Mech 1S 1E, destroy Recon.
AA 5E.
APC 4E.

Enemy Day 2:
Tank must attack APC from road.

Day 3:
Recon 4N 1E, attack Mech (Mech should have 5HP left, but I don't think it matters).
AA 4N 2E, attack APC.
BCop 4N 2E, attack Art.
Tank 2N 3E, destroy APC.
Mech 1E, destroy Tank.
APC 4N 2E, drop S.

Enemy Day 3:
Inf must attack BCop (5-9).

Day 4:
AA 4N 2E, destroy Art.
Inf 3N, destroy Inf.
BCop attack Tank.
Tank 3N 1E, destroy Tank.

Day 5:
Cap HQ.

Day 6:
Finish HQ cap.

You can COP on Day 4 right after the BCop attacks the Tank in order to prevent Koal from activating any powers. However I think that not COPing is faster as Koal only has two units to boost, while you have 8.
This strategy can be tweaked into a rout. The trade-off is time spent trapping the Lander and moving the Rockets vs HQ capture animations.

M8 is next, the first real challenge, since the enemy has a base.

Translucent Air

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by Translucent Air » Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:50 pm

The question of whether a 3-day rout for "Max Attacks" is possible is what ALAKTORN and -STL- are trying to resolve. A 4-day rout has been standard and known for some time. (See www.vgr-fr.com for reference.) Should a 3-day rout be possible, it would have a higher chance of being frame count optimal, as it would eliminate a couple days worth of enemy and day introduction animations.

"Tag Battle" should not be particularly difficult. Without skills, Colin (or even Sasha) easily makes a 7-day HQ capture trivial, and most optimizations could be derived from tweaking that in varying degrees. With skills, I'm sure -STL- already has a few ideas.

ALAKTORN, the infantry in "Max Attacks" is simply a mistake. As those maps were fan-made and the person who made them is likely no longer active, it is unlikely that it will be fixed anytime soon.

-Translucent Air

User avatar
DxDyDzD
Rank: Blue Bomber
Location: War Room

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by DxDyDzD » Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:23 am

Faster M7 strat in terms of days. It's a rout this time.
edit: Art and APC are not used. The Inf does the job of revealing the Lander instead of the APC, saving time by skipping the resupply animations.

M7 5/300 by Rout

Day 1:
Load Mech, APC 1S 2E, drop E.
Inf 2E.
Recon 1N 1W and BCop 1N 5E, destroy Art.
Rockets 1S 4E.
Tank 4S 1E.
AA 5S 1E.

Day 2:
Recon 1N 5E.
Tank 1N 4E and Inf 1S 1E, destroy Recon.
BCop 1N 4E, attack Tank (10-5).
Mech 2E.
Rockets 1N 2E.
AA 5E.

Day 3:
Recon 4N 1E, attack Mech.
AA 4N 2E, attack APC.
BCop 4N 2E, attack Art.
Tank 2N 3E, destroy APC.
Mech destroy Tank.
Rockets, Inf 1N 2E.

Enemy Day 3:
Inf must attack BCop.

Day 4:
BCop attack Tank.
Tank 2N 2E, destroy Tank.
Inf 3N.
Rockets attack Lander.
COP.
AA 4N 2E, destroy Art.

Day 5:
Tank destroy Mech.
AA 2S, destroy Inf.
Rockets destroy Lander.

Apparently I made a mistake, when Sasha activates her COP, you don't get that sparkly animation on your units, unlike, say, Andy. So using Sasha's COP would save more time than letting Koal activate his SCOP, since Koal has an extra "SUPER POWER" animation that pops up.
In the context of the TAS none of the COs should have gotten skills yet (insufficient EXP, even if Jake is used for M5), so we must play with skills off. TA, can you provide a guide, or some tips, for M8?
Last edited by DxDyDzD on Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
-STL-

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by -STL- » Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:29 am

DxDyDzD wrote: I tried to cut time by making straight movements instead of diagonals, i.e. the Art goes 4S then 4E, instead of 4S 1E then 3E. Also, the Day 4 Inf attacks by moving 3E instead of 1N 2E.
That´s not faster, it should be exactly the same. And for cursor movement (in human play) diagonal is ofc faster.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by ALAKTORN » Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:09 am

-STL- wrote:
DxDyDzD wrote: I tried to cut time by making straight movements instead of diagonals, i.e. the Art goes 4S then 4E, instead of 4S 1E then 3E. Also, the Day 4 Inf attacks by moving 3E instead of 1N 2E.
That´s not faster, it should be exactly the same. And for cursor movement (in human play) diagonal is ofc faster.
yeah, I erronely mentioned diagonal being 1 frame slower sometime in the past, but it's not true, it's the same speed, sorry for that

edit: C3 with a 0.3HP MD alive… :(

edit2: just found a strategy that works :) but requires insane luck, Julian got it too, with a different strategy even XD

User avatar
-STL-

Re: Normal Campaign TAS WIP

Post by -STL- » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:13 am

C3 3/300 was really possible but requires very hard luck in my strat, so i made it only on Emu so far.
2 Mechs + Art must 3HKO MD 45+15+15 means it requires 25/27 luck.

http://s489.photobucket.com/albums/rr26 ... t=C3D1.png
http://s489.photobucket.com/albums/rr26 ... t=C3D2.png
http://s489.photobucket.com/albums/rr26 ... 3D2End.png


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