How I learned to stop worrying and love the black bomb

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Linkman
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Master of Fiction

How I learned to stop worrying and love the black bomb

Post by Linkman » Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:30 pm

In this topic, Linky plays AWDS! YES IT'S 2006 ALL OVER AGAIN OH WHAT JOY.

Firstly, a few generalities on the single player and campaign:

- Dear God, that 3D view is silly. I always though it looked like crumpets because the emulator couldn't handle it, but no, it looks just as crumpets on the DS. I can understand trying to do it, but it just feels half-assed and I would have appreciated the option to go back to a regular 2D view.

- They nerfed Sami's +1 transport omg why :'(

- CO themes sound slightly weird? Dunno about this one.

- Rachel is pretty kickass. Jake is weak.

- The last two missions are simply the weakest excuses for final missions the AW series has produced.

Okay, onto bigger and more important things: I played a couple of games with gip today. It kinda works, the whole teamviewer+emu thing; the first match had pretty good framerate and it was very quick, the second had awful framerate and was kind of a chore. I blame my wifi to be honest, but either way, it can be done--though it ain't that much faster than Savestate Swapping!

First match was Colin (Gip) vs. Sami (me), second was Kanbei (Gip) vs. Eagle (me). I don't know the maps, but maybe Gip has the replays.

I won the first with a last resort Victory March. I say last resource because it was pretty clear Colin was going to smother me after his first Gold Rush, it wasn't even close. I feel I fudge up the capture phase--first competitive match in years, gimme a break-- but Sami's SCOP is just waaay brutal. I had around four mechs relatively near Gip's HQ and managed to trigger VM with three mechs to still move. Two of them cleared the HQ and the third one capped for the unexpected win.

The second one I fudge up as well--I tried building a T-Copter when it wasn't truly necessary, and also a B-Copter when a recon would have been better. Slowly but surely Kanbei started overtaking me and I yielded by day 11 or 12, when my position wasn't that disadvantageous... but it would have been soon enough. I figured I'd save us the time.

So what do I think?

- It's very true about them SCOPs; they come around way too fast. So when Gip says Grit is the worst CO in the game, he has a point, there is very little time for waiting around. However, in both matches Gip and I still built obscene amounts of infantries, and the whole star charging system underpowers B-Copters, which I would assume are Grit's natural counter. So does Grit have a place in this metagame? I feel he still does. I'd like to playtest this further, I think Grit at least should match the likes of Andy and Koal. There is the question of Black Bombs, but are they truly cost-effective? I don't know.

- It was only one game, but I felt absolutely overwhelmed by Kanbei. At no point I felt my Eagle had a chance against him; it's very true Eagle gets double production during Lightning Drive, but he is far from the likes of Hachi, Sensei and Colin, and unlike anyone else in his tier, this strategy means you get no big punch SCOP to use: no mass damage, no victory march, not even a big ass Max Blast to deal some damage. This was specially noticeable against Kanbei, of course, which I couldn't hurt most of the time--and it never felt like I would be able to. I'd have to test him against Olaf or something to see, but I don't think he's at the level of Sami or the Mass Damagers.

- About the black bomb: I know you say it changes the metagame Gip, but is it truly so? We played pretty short games, but in both of them I'd have to bank for two turns to afford a Black Bomb. Against Kanbei it felt like it would have been really useful, because it was guaranteed damage, but against other COs... I don't know if it's worth losing the three and half vehicles. So this is part of the reason of my doubt when it comes to burying Grit.

Pretty much it so far. Tune in later when we've played s'more!
"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
"I can't believe I'm the only person who voted Stallone. His appeal lies in watching is movies again and again just to hear what the hell he's talking about." - Kilteh

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Sven

Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love the black bomb

Post by Sven » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:03 am

there's a traditional way to play grit that you and i can probably remember from like 2004 savestate swapping. no brain required, turtle up with only artillery, there is nothing the opponent can do to threaten you once you have five or so. you can give up income advantage because all that matters is the size of your army, you don't care that the opp is up 15-11. you aren't truly threatened by any army composition made by the opponent. eventually your arty wall is two layers thick with a rocket or two (you don't even need inf at this point!), and you're holding (but not actually using) your SCOP. you move your arty wall up three-four squares and suddenly you're threatening cities. the opp slams all their units into you in a desperation attack to hold their advantage, but it's never enough. you fire off a SCOP, brutalize the opp's army, equalize the prop count, and mop up with whatever the fudge you want because grit is broken.

the strat is just straight up hard countered by the blackbomb's existence. if grit ignores the center props and just starts spamming arty, the opp actually has a unit able to bust through and hold their advantage. the existence of the bomb means that grit has to care about income levels and actually fighting over the center of the map - he doesn't get inevitability from 11000 a turn anymore. you've got to play a fairer fight.

and that's where gip and i became stuck. we have no idea how grit is supposed to survive the early game at parity, things as simple as the opponent building a recon put incredible pressure on a grit that's trying to fight for his own center props.

i suspect you're probably just supposed to expect to give up a prop early somewhere in the early game. i'd skip building inf beyond what i needed to ensure i capped all my props and like 1 per arty on the front lines or something. inf are only for controlling space - you have artillery for controlling space. i think i'd try and setup a t-copter + mech chain if it was at all feasible. if the opp goes for a copter you definitely respond with AA. i'd want like a 1:1 inf/mech mix, with one t-copter, one AA, and the rest arty.

i'm not sure how grit is ever supposed to actually take the prop you give up back though - aggressive moves with artillery are incredibly telegraphed. you'd need to be some sort of SCOP wizard. and honestly, if you can manipulate that kind of wizardry with passive-aggressive arty, you'd probably be better served by just playing adder and playing passive aggressive tank/inf battles.

as for eagle - i don't understand? i don't think our list had him hanging out with hachi/sensei/kanbei/colin. i'll be the first to admit i totally don't understand the details of rachel/eagle/von bolt/sami/olaf/drake/hawke and their specific ordering. if they're even slightly ahead pretty much all their powers feel broken when you fire them off. the top tiers just feel broken even in inf skirmishes though.

if you want to play cripple wars sometime to show me wrong about grit let me know. i'm not actually sure he beats a vanilla CO now that i've put some thought into it.

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love the black bomb

Post by GipFace » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:23 am

Tier list as of our last tweaking went like this:

Hachi/Sensei/Colin/Javier 2T/Kanbei
Sami/Eagle/mass damage COs (Rachel/Kindle/Von Bolt/Olaf/Hawke/Drake)
Sonja/Javier 1T/recon+tank boost COs (Jess/Max/Grimm)/+MP COs (Andy/Koal/Adder)
Sasha/Luck COs/Jake/Lash/Javier 0T/Grit

The ones I'm very unsure about are Andy and Sasha. They're the two COs who play off the enemy CO, so they're extremely difficult to tier. It may be that Andy might be better than Sonja or the mass damage COs. As for Sasha, well, she is incredibly boring to play (the reason you play this game is to see powers fly) and so we never got any games in with her.

Kanbei vs. Sami was close enough in one game we played, so that's why we tried Kanbei vs. Eagle. But Kanbei's SCOP is very stupid indeed. Suddenly Kanbei can expose antiair to tanks, tanks to mechs, and not give a damn.

Interesting part about the Kanbei vs. Eagle game was that Kanbei was forced to give up the center because of an early Eagle recon. But the recon couldn't exactly disrupt because Kanbei's recon on woods could go up against Eagle's recon on city. Eventually Kanbei reclaimed the center easily. I don't see how Grit can do that.

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monkymeet
Rank: Bitch
3DS Code: 3480-3067-3928

Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love the black bomb

Post by monkymeet » Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:23 am

Reading this makes me wish there was a more active metagaming for AW other than, like, 4 people.
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Linkman
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Master of Fiction

Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love the black bomb

Post by Linkman » Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:17 am

I agree with the top tier, though it could be argued a new division may be made in:

Top - Hachi/Sensei
High - Kanbei/Colin

With a further refinement in giving Kanbei his own tier, since Colin can't match up against him. But that's peanuts.

Let's play Grit vs. one of the third tier COs whenever we can. Maybe you guys are right, I just am not entirely convinced. I'd also like to try Eagle vs. mass damage (I think Sami edges out both to be honest, but let's see)
"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
"I can't believe I'm the only person who voted Stallone. His appeal lies in watching is movies again and again just to hear what the hell he's talking about." - Kilteh

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Sven

Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love the black bomb

Post by Sven » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:32 pm

In a rush this morning, but I strongly suspect an actual grit composition picks a front like this:

Image

you pick a city 3-4 squares away that you want to cap and build only three artillery w/a mech to cover to try and take it over. you use the rest of your army to try and salvage parity. if at all possible, the most vulnerable of your artillery should be on a city.

no idea how it actually works out ofc, but it was just something i noticed from a game with linkman.

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