Tier List (2016+ discussion)

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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ThunderWalker » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:11 pm

Sven wrote:
ThunderWalker wrote:I think the buff-nerf suggestions also miss the point of a few things that are overpowered/broken. Kanbei's main problem - in AW2 at least, is Samurai Spirit, due to the functioning of the def formula (With AWDoRs def formula it actually isn't a problem). I can only imagine it being worse in AWDS with the fast-charging powers. That, and Sami isn't mentioned at all despite Victory March being a broken mechanic. Sensei and Hachi's SCOP are pretty similar. I think Xen did a great job of curbing their powers in his AW2 hack but his incarnation of Sensei would still be very powerful in AWDS.

Also, isn't Lash COP meter xxXXXX? Or did I just play modified versions of AW2 that long that I don't even remember her original power bar?
On that note, do I even still have a clean version of AW2? I probably do, but it's likely well-hidden.
this is just wrong information.

the most important thing is how the stats of your units compare to the stats of your opponents. if you play brenner in DoR (who's just 110/130) vs forsythe at 110/110 you will smack him silly with very little effort, despite a 'corrected' formula. the game will feel downright easy if you're even remotely close to the skill level of the other player. a 20 point differential is too much to overcome without some sort of compensating factor via a CO power/other abilities.

the AW2 formula changes things so that a point of defense is in some sense worth "more" than a point in attack. for kanbei's case though, it really doesn't matter. AW2 kanbei can very easily beat most COs without ever activating a power. just move your units in your opponent's general direction and watch them drop like flies. a 60 point stat differential is just dumb. every CO in AW2 that can even possibly deal with kanbei does it by making units of absurd quality (grit, colin, sturm), quantity (sensei), or both (hachi). and even then i'm pretty sure kanbei beats the crumpets out of most of the COs i've listed anyway.
Oops, I forgot Kanbei was 130/130 in AW2, thought he was just 120/120 like in AW1 and AWDS.
Yeah, can't even recall the last time I played AW2 unmodified. But even then, Samurai Spirit is pretty ridiculous as your units on mountains/HQ become just plain invincible and those on other terrain take a lot less damage too. But yeah, Kanbei is ridiculously overpowered in vanilla AW2 and the (predeployed) mission Duty and Honor even relies on him being broken as heck.

Now we're talking about the various AWs in this thread, I suddenly remember why I didn't like vanilla AW2 anymore :P

Also, isn't Forsythe 120/120?
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by Sven » Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:52 am

i mixed him up with penny d2d my bad

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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ALAKTORN » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:26 pm

After an almost 4 and a half hours game of Sasha vs. Gippy’s Grit I have some thoughts. Edit: I’ll explain a little how it went. IIRC I had the better cap phase and was 22–15 at one point. I used like 3 BBombs but they didn’t do a lot. At one point semi-late game I made the mistake of thinking he couldn’t charge, but he did and basically destroyed everything. On D26 I lost the game because I couldn’t hold my Cities anymore. Sasha’s COP held off Grit’s better than I expected but he still got 2 important ones off and after using mine for like 5 times it took forever to charge back.
vid (4:21′48″): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYZyQsE7cKg

1. Grit is not the worst CO in the game you’re crazy.
2. Make day limit 25 days at least pls kthx. (Or let’s start playing with a dynamic timer.)
3. Black Bomb is bad. 25k is a lot of money to spend even for Sasha and when there are 2 fronts on a semi-big map its effectiveness is basically halved.

Other general thoughts looking at the tier:
1: Mass Units (Hachi, Sensei)
2: Rachel, Kanbei
3: Colin, Sami, Eagle, Mass Damage (Von Bolt/Kindle/Olaf/Hawke/Drake)
4: Vehicles (Jess/Max/Grimm), Sonja, Sasha, Universal +MP (Andy/Koal/Adder)
5: Luck (Nell/Jugger/Flak), Narrow (Jake, Lash, Javier), Grit

Top tier seem pretty well set, but bottom are all wrong. I would do away with the “vehicles”, “+MP” etc. themes, they don’t fit that nicely. Andy, Nell, Jake, Grit all COs I’d probably put higher. Koal/Adder should go lower.

Good posts:
GipFace wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:14 am
ALAKTORN wrote:What’s the second number in those graphs? Also, how did you feel about yesterday’s game where you lost to Jugger with Adder? I couldn’t watch much of it.
I threw the game with a blunder, but I still think Adder sucks. In a game where powers are so crucial, both of Adder's powers are insignificant. They don't increase his ATK, so the only way you're getting extra damage in is if you hit units you normally couldn't have hit. Flak/Jugger's SCOP is underwhelming compared to Nell's SCOP but it's still a huge ATK boost.

Spamming Adder's COP gives you 110/110 quite often, but I'm starting to think he might be worse than Jake and Lash. At least Lash has a slight ATK bonus, however small it may be. Koal probably sucks in the same manner as well. Andy is clearly above those two because he can counter mass damage and he gets an ATK boost with SCOP.

Sven was skeptical that Rachel was the 3rd-best CO in the game. So we played Kanbei vs. Rachel. Kanbei got stomped. http://www.twitch.tv/gipstream2/v/38567417

Lastly, Jake may rise because 150A on plains during SCOP seems OK based on the plains-heavy maps we're using.
GipFace wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:58 pm
What I've discovered is that a CO with an unreliable attack boost is better than no attack boost at all.

Sasha and Adder continually perform poorly for me and may be bumped down below the luck COs. Adder/Koal aren't very good in practice and I might just take Lash and Jake over them. My Sasha lost to Jugger because all Jugger needed to break Sasha was to win 3 luck rolls during SCOP. That means you could typically have half your luck rolls fail and still come out on top.

I've never been the best at squeezing my funds to make the most cost-efficient army composition, but I'm really not digging Sasha. Maybe someone else can give her a shot.
Edit: We had the inverted runback me P1 Grit him P2 Sasha, instead of spamming copters he made Stealths and I thought AAs countered so spammed those, welp… still somehow got props advantage midgame though and only really lost when he banked so much he had a big army and 2 BBombs. Sasha vs. Grit have really close games, Grit is not worst CO. First game I was P2 Sasha and was up 22–15 props at one point (Gippy blundered), second game worst position was like 17–20 for Gippy I think and I went 20–19 or something when I got advantage. Stayed at 19–19 up until like D27 or D26 but then I got mawled. Basically if this game ended D20 I’d have won, if previous game ended D25 I’d have won. lol Weird how I’d have gotten a win earlier on as Grit, who’s supposed to take time to win… I guess too much time and the opponent gets a successful BBomb. They didn’t work for me because I used them too soon. I still think they’re not that good, the 4 Stealths he made did most of the damage. Oh yeah also my copter spammy strategy in the first game made it so I was spamming COP to stop Grit’s, but this game we never fought that much and Gippy actually never COP’d. Used SCOP twice and first time he got 15.1kG from it… I used like 1 COP 2 SCOPs, not sure. They weren’t game changing enough I guess… though without the BBomb I was in a pretty good position.
vid (4:41′25″): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOS3RHBArKw

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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by Blanket PI » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:11 am

I've watched most of that match you provided, and I think there's something you weren't considering (not that Grit isn't better than listed, but that the degree might not be as severe as it appears): If in an Adder vs. Grit match, the properties go 20-17, Adder has an economic gain over Grit if Adder trades one of his Tanks for one of Grit's Artilleries. Why? Adder has 3/17 more income every turn than Grit. 3/17 > 1/6. A Tank is worth 1/6 more than an Artillery nominally. So really, Adder would spend a smaller portion of his income on a Tank (7/20) than Grit would have on an Artillery (6/17). You had an even more extreme case. With Sasha vs. Grit and a 22-15 split, you effectively had 24.2 properties, right? So you had 9.2/15 more income than Grit. That's larger than 1/2. So you could have traded a B Copter with an Artillery and still come out ahead, economically. Maybe that'd have been enough to prevent the Artilleries from building up? I don't know, having little experience with the series and that only with the most drastically different game in the series.

I agree with Erisin, though. The terrain helped a lot, too, since you couldn't attack many units twice in one turn.

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