Tier List (2016+ discussion)

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GipFace
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Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by GipFace » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:07 am

1: Mass Units (Hachi, Sensei)
2: Rachel, Kanbei
3: Colin, Sami, Eagle, Mass Damage (Von Bolt/Kindle/Olaf/Hawke/Drake)
4: Vehicles (Jess/Max/Grimm), Sonja, Sasha, Universal +MP (Andy/Koal/Adder)
5: Luck (Nell/Jugger/Flak), Narrow (Jake, Lash, Javier), Grit

CO settings: single, no skills
Map settings: no fog, 30 days, G1000 funds, clear weather
Map composition: size 14x14 (196 sq. tiles) to 20x20 (400 sq. tiles), 2-3 bases, 1-2 airports, 0 seaports, 0 com towers

Detailed analysis is below.

AW3 (Dual Strike/Famicom Wars DS) is NOT AWBW
Many people believe that AW3 plays like the browser AW client, Advance Wars By Web (AWBW). Using AWBW to debate the AW3 metagame will get you laughed out of the room. Here are the differences:

AWBW uses the AW2 charge rate system
The AW2 charge rate is G9000 per star. In AW3, it varies per unit. Most important are 0.4* for soldiers, 1* for recon/tank/artillery/antiair, and 1.2* for b-copters. As AWBW uses the AW2 charge rate, it's a slower game and puts more emphasis on a CO's day-to-day (d2d) abilities instead of the power-focused metagame of AW3.

AW3 restrictions
AW3 has a maximum map size of 30x20, and a unit limit of 50. AWBW doesn't have these restrictions. I feel this is actually a detriment: I'd rather play multiple games on a 17x17 map than on a 40x40 map, which is ~5.5 times larger in area. Restriction breeds creativity.

Black bombs allowed
In AWBW, the black bomb is almost always banned. In AW3, it's fair game, and it's certainly not a broken unit due to the faster pace.

The COs are different
This is the big one. In AWBW, almost all COs that are in AW2 use their AW2 profile. (There are some weird exceptions, such as Sturm having the AW1 pvp profile and a made-for-AWBW CO power.) The AW3-only COs seem accurate at first glance. However, they're still under the AW2 charge rate, which means they don't play as expected. For example, Sasha, an AW3-only CO, is much stronger in AWBW. The AW2 charge rate system favors a slower game, so Sasha is able to accumulate more funds over the long run and better prevent enemy powers.

Understanding AW3 pvp fundamentals
To better understand why some COs are better than others, we have to look at a few things that shape the dynamics of every AW3 game.

Unit count
In this game, unit count is king. Not only do the cheaper core units charge the power meter faster, but more units give you more options. Tech units may look great on paper, but they can only fire once per day. The game is too fast for players to turtle and build a critical mass of tech units that defeat any number of core units.

Unit composition
The cheapest unit, infantry, is quite difficult to 1HKO. Having lots of infantry increases your potential to capture enemy cities, and infantry charge the power meter faster than any other unit based on value. Therefore, infantry are built every game, and in large numbers.

Recons are a great harass unit. You must weigh the cost of lost guaranteed income (because that recon could've been an infantry for the capture phase) versus the potential of disrupting the enemy capture phase. Even then, you don't feel too bad when they're finally defeated by a tank because they're worth 1*.

Tanks are important because the only units that can hard-counter tanks without slowing tempo are more expensive. The mech and artillery are less expensive but cannot assert space like the tank can. Antiair can 1HKO infantry but they're hard-countered by the tank, which is less expensive.

Tech units are usually ignored because despite the additional power, they are unable to 1HKO infantry unless they have additional boosts. Even Eagle's 120A bomber cannot reliably 1HKO an infantry on a city: 110 x 1.2 x 0.7 = 92%. Therefore, players prefer two core units over a tech unit because two core units can 2HKO. In the late game, md tanks may be built with extra cash because the md tank resists mech/tank/b-copter.

So what can we take out of this? COs that boost infantry and vehicles have a unit composition advantage over COs who don't.

Unit placement during powers
This is one that many inexperienced players gloss over. You've got a super CO power (SCOP) ready, great! Now how does it actually affect the map? Many of the +ATK powers only affect a small portion of your army. Reinforcements aren't in range of the enemy, so only the front lines are affected. Your opponent might have even retreated his units a little to prevent you from using the SCOP to its full effect. Therefore, the best powers are the ones that don't rely on unit placement at all, such as the ones that build more units, or mass damage.

CO analysis
Now that we've covered the fundamentals, it's time to go over each CO. For each CO I'm only covering relevant abilities. Powers add +10/+10 to all units in addition to what is listed. Some COs are grouped together because they play similar.

Mass Units (Hachi, Sensei)
Hachi: -10% cost. 5: -40% cost, cities become bases
Sensei: +10A soldiers, +50A b-copters. 2: +20A b-copters, 9HP ready inf on all cities

A pvp map has 16-20 properties per side. Let's look at a 2 base 1 airport situation. After you count the HQ and the industries, that's 12-16 cities per side. On day 10, you'll have a maximum of 20 land units (plus the FTA counter infantry if applicable). With these powers, these COs have the ability to almost double the unit count instantly. And that means they're a magnitude better than the other COs. Hachi gets the edge over Sensei due to cheap artillery, megatanks (which can't be countered except by other megatanks or a bunch of indirect units), and black bombs.

Rachel
+1 urban repair. 6: Three radius 2 silos that hit for 3HP each (soldier bias, $ bias, HP concentration bias)
She used to be lumped in with the other mass damage COs. But her SCOP is ridiculous and at this point I'm convinced she's the third-best CO in the game, especially given AW3's map size restrictions. The opponent cannot avoid her SCOP, and it's impossible to build around it. Because she can get it as early as D8, two of the silos will hit the same spot almost every time. That's better than a black bomb, and unlike a black bomb, you don't have to move it into position.

Kanbei
+20/+20, +20% cost. 7: +30/+30 all, counterattack doubled
Best soldiers in the game. Tanks are good enough that he can put them on woods or cities and cancel out first strike. SCOP pretty much makes your units invincible.

Colin
-20% cost, -10A. 2: +50% current funds
He gets md tanks faster than anyone else, and if the opponent tries to use artillery against him, he has cheap black bombs to deal with that. Kanbei still smacks him straight up, though.

Sami
+20A soldiers, +50% capture rate (rounded down), -10A non-soldier direct. 8: +60A and +2MP soldiers, instant capture
2nd-best soldiers in the game. Crippled infantry get a second wind. Her COP is a trap; always use her SCOP because it breaks the game. She can turtle with mechs, give up the center, and still come back and win.

Eagle
+20A air. 3: Non-soldier extra turn, non-soldier ATK halved
COP is ridiculous. Not only can you build 2 extra land units with it, but your vehicles can perform a hit-and-run to prevent any retaliation. A typical game has Eagle using his COP two or three times, so those 6 extra land units can make a huge difference. His COP falls short of the broken shenanigans of the COs above him, but it's still super solid.

Mass Damage (Von Bolt/Kindle/Olaf/Hawke/Drake)
Von Bolt: +10/+10. 10: One radius 2 silo that hits for 3HP and stuns ($ bias)
Kindle: +40A urban. 3: -3HP to enemy units on urban tiles, +40A urban
Olaf: +20A in snow. 7: -2HP enemy, snows for 2 days
Hawke: +10A. 9: +2HP, -2HP enemy
Drake: -10A air. 7: -2HP enemy, rains for 1 day
Everyone who has a mass damage power is automatically great because it doesn't matter what position you're in. Just invoke it when it's ready. Mass damage is so good that Drake, who is worse-than-bland, is a good CO solely because of his SCOP. Von Bolt gets a slight edge due to his superior units, but the other COs have faster powers that can go off a day or two earlier.

Vehicles (Jess/Max/Grimm)
Jess: +20A vehicles, -10A air. 6: +40A and +2MP vehicles
Max: +20A non-soldier direct, -1 indirect range. 6: +60A non-soldier direct
Grimm: +30/-20. 6: +50A
The first two boost recon/tank/antiair. Max also boosts b-copters, and Grimm boosts soldiers. These COs rely on unit composition and healthy units for their SCOP. Jess has an edge because of the extra MP, which is generally more helpful than Max's greater ATK boost.

Sonja
-1 terrain star for enemy units, -5 minimum luck. 5: -2 terrain stars for enemy units, first strike
This one I'm not too sure about because I haven't played her much. However, removing city defense and granting first strike is awesome and can shut down all the COs beneath her. Sonja's biggest asset is using her SCOP before the vehicle COs can activate theirs.

Sasha
+G100 funds. 2: -1% enemy power meter per G500 (can remove fractions of a star)
Nowhere as powerful as in AWBW. Her COP basically knocks out about 3 stars without any banking, but most of the COs can use their COP instead of their SCOP. She's very boring to play and I've almost never used her. Based on results, she might go up in the future. Extra money is always good.

Universal +MP (Andy/Koal/Adder)
Andy: 6: +20A, +1MP, +5HP
Koal: +10A road. 5: +20A road, +2MP
Adder: 2: +1MP. 5: +2MP
These COs give you first strike for all of your infantry and vehicles. However, there's no substantial ATK boost. Andy can deal with the mass damage COs a bit, but the mass damage COs will wait until they can use their SCOP and launch an offensive at the same time. I haven't played with them too much, so these may change positions in the future.

Luck (Nell/Jugger/Flak)
Nell: Luck 0 to +20. 6: 0 to +100
Jugger: Luck -15 to +30. 7: -45 to +95
Flak: Luck -10 to +25. 6: -40 to +90
AW3 is just too fast for the luck COs. You have SCOPs being used as early as D8. Around this time each side will have about 20 or so units, and maybe half of them can actually battle. Yes yes, Nell's infantry can 1HKO tanks, but does this actually ever happen?

- The mass damage COs can suicide, then invoke SCOP, thus injuring all enemy infantry and dampening the enemy SCOP
- The vehicle COs can suicide some inf, then invoke SCOP and cripple units with the attack boost
- The +MP COs will invoke SCOP before the luck COs and injure all the enemy infantry

The luck COs cannot suicide for their SCOP because they need all their units to be fresh. (Luck modifier is applied after base damage * ATK modifier but before DEF and HP modifiers.) The best way to go at it is to mass infantry then bank the rest for md tanks (so that your HP losses are concentrated on few units), but you give up too much space by doing so. If your production is regular instead and isn't skewed towards infantry, then why aren't you using a universal +MP or a vehicle CO?

Nell has the best power so she has an edge, but Jugger and Flak get +2HP damage more often.

Narrow (Jake, Lash, Javier)
Jake: +10A plains. 6: +30A plains, +1 indirect range, +2MP vehicles
Lash: +5A per terrain star. 7: Terrain stars doubled
Javier: +20D against enemy indirect units. 6: +60D against enemy indirect units
Jake has a bunch of strange boosts which allow 150A on plains during SCOP, but you're probably better off using a vehicle CO instead. Lash's boosts are too small. Javier isn't useful because the metagame is direct-unit heavy, and maps don't have com towers for balance reasons.

Grit
+20A indirect, +1 indirect range, -20A non-soldier direct. 3: +30A indirect, +1 indirect range
Quoting Sven: Grit is one of the only COs where you can literally ignore the city count and focus purely on building towards a huge deathball. he probably gives up cities more often in AWDS than in the earlier games, but it's still the same strat (as AWBW). Unfortunately that huge deathball is hard countered by black bombs. i suspect you could play with a more balanced composition without too much penalty, but I hate playing as Grit.

Who am I and why should you trust me?
As this post has been linked on Reddit, I should introduce myself to newcomers.

I've been a huge fan of AW since AW1's 2001 release. In April 2008, I won the Allgames tournament, the only major AW4 tournament sponsored by Nintendo. (Replay) First place got a prize package valued at about $1000. From 2008 until the Nintendo WFC's demise in 2014, I played over 1500 hours of AW4 wi-fi through random and friend-code games. I was ranked #1 on AWN's ladder with a record of 187-8. My time with AW3 pvp is shorter but it's certainly at least 150 hours. Though AW3 is different than AW4 in many ways, the experience I gained with AW4 was a solid foundation to approach AW3 pvp with fresh eyes.

I have a differing opinion about the tier list.
That's good. We'll listen as long as you play the game. We'll pay more attention if you cite examples from pvp games instead of theorizing what may or may not happen. The tier list isn't set in stone and will change as playing styles evolve.

Special thanks
Everyone in the #wwn IRC playgroup, but especially Sven, Sneetch, and ALAKTORN. You guys are the best, because you actually play the game.
Last edited by GipFace on Sun Jan 24, 2016 5:54 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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DieselPheonix

Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by DieselPheonix » Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:56 pm

What are the options for PVP currently?

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JSRulz

Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by JSRulz » Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:14 pm

I'm fine with the tier list. My questions are:

1) Which system is better for the global power game as a whole, AWDS or AW2?
2) Also, do you mind listing a group of maps that your games were played on?

This is pretty important for research purposes, and getting a good idea of the map composition used.

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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by Xenesis » Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:40 pm

DieselPheonix wrote:What are the options for PVP currently?
Mostly having one person host on an emulator and another person connect using something like TeamViewer or AnyDesk.

Obviously, as the post alludes to, AWBW isn't really an AW3 substitute.
JSRulz wrote:I'm fine with the tier list. My questions are:

1) Which system is better for the global power game as a whole, AWDS or AW2?
They're fundamentally just different. AW2 is a slower game period and unless there's a botched capture phase will take longer to resolve. AW3 tends to resolve in about 30-game days or less and as such, you can quite easily have an entire game in an hour.
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ThunderWalker » Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:09 pm

Great, new thread. It was about time!

Don't really have anything else to comment. The new tier list looks accurate enough.
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by scraggypunk » Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:58 am

i totally forgot rachel was a CO
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ThunderWalker » Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:16 am

scraggypunk wrote:i totally forgot rachel was a CO
What else could she be?
A tank?
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by scraggypunk » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:29 am

i thought she was: non-existent
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by GipFace » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:24 pm

DieselPheonix wrote:What are the options for PVP currently?
Remote desktop method is the most reliable way to play this game. AnyDesk, which was released in late 2014, is a superb replacement for Teamviewer, as it is much, much faster. We arrange games over #wwn.

This thread was created because I got tired of people creating their own "tier lists" on Reddit out of theorycrafting with no proof to back it up. I offered each one of them a game but of course they declined. With game streaming more prevalent than ever, combined with powerful computers and faster Internet speeds, using AnyDesk to play this game while recording using OBS/Fraps is easy and effective. But strangely enough, the n00bs are unable to back up their claims. It doesn't matter if they hate my guts for calling them out. They won't even play each other lolol~

I'm most iffy about the lower tiers as I find that they're mostly uninteresting. Sasha may have potential, and Jake does get 150A infantry/vehicles on plains with his SCOP. But without many people to play with, I'd rather spend additional time honing my skills with the upper half of the roster.

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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by Sven » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:40 pm

I'm most iffy about the lower tiers as I find that they're mostly uninteresting
Pretty much. Sasha takes a bunch of planning on each map. You have to sit down beforehand and figure out where you can build an early vehicle of some sort that will be able to harass the opponent. If you screw up and build it too late, your opponent can get their own vehicle to cover their capturing infantry in time. Building recons will accelerate the charge rate if the money that goes into them would otherwise be a tank or copter, so that's probably no good. So you somehow need to find a way to slot in an early tank. It's a lot of restrictions and a ton of mental energy for a not so high ceiling, since Sasha's COP isn't stopping anything in this game.

Grit's pretty much the same thing. There might be a way for him to build tanks to artillery in a 1 to 1 ratio that sort of works out. Maybe it's even good! But it's such a huge power level drop compared to his previous incarnations that I have no fun doing so, he plays like a hollow shell of his former self.

The other bad COs just don't have a lot to them. How exactly do you plan on leveraging Jake's plains bonus? You play him where there's a plains tile next to a contested property for your directs to fire on, or a good plains tile for you to park an artillery. If the map doesn't give you something to work with there's nothing you can do. Even once you've done everything right you're worse than most other COs who gain firepower boosts.

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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by Satel » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:20 pm

Jake in practice is basically a less good Jess. The plains requirement just stops him dead and isn't relevant enough to consider day to day, and his powers are just too limited for it to really be valuable. Even if the map was all plains and properties, Jake just lags behind her super hard.

Most other low-tiered COs just haven't got a real strong point that could give the an advantage or even put them on par with the others. So much so that Sasha, the Luck COs and the Jake tier are basically on the same average level with very little actual difference in power.

Talking about Sasha, don't use her SCOP. It's good, just unreliable and not worth its cost because it's pretty much impossible to make a big impact with it.
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by GipFace » Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:00 am

I think Sasha's biggest strength is the d4 tank. On the standard 3 starting prop map, your income will go 3, 3, 3, 4 if there is an immediate city <4 tiles from a base. That's G13000. If you want a d4 tank, you must cut an inf. But Sasha gets G14300, which means she can build 7 inf and the tank. At this stage in the game the extra inf might be huge, especially if Sasha is 2P and already has the FTA counter inf.

I'll probably play some more Sasha when I can.

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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by GipFace » Sun Jan 24, 2016 6:01 pm

Minor changes to the tier list:
- Moved Colin to Tier 3.
- Moved Sasha up to better than Universal +MP COs

From limited testing, Colin struggles against Rachel or Kanbei, and the matchup is skewed enough in their favor to knock Colin down to Tier 3. I also got to play a few pvp games with Sasha over the past few days. Sven beat me with Drake despite my winning the capture phase. Mass damage is just silly. However, I believe I misplayed the midgame, and Sasha can recover from mass damage better than the Universal +MP COs except Andy.

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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by GipFace » Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:47 pm

Luck visualized!

D2D
Image

SCOP
Image

We can see a few things:

- Nell is clearly better than Flak/Jugger for both D2D and SCOP
- For D2D, Flak/Jugger average +7.5 luck, while Nell averages +9.5 luck. A normal CO averages +4.5 luck.
- For SCOP, Flak/Jugger average +25 luck, while Nell averages a whopping +49.5 luck. Rachel's COP (which is never used) averages +24.5 luck.
- Sonja D2D averages +2.5 luck but she more than makes up for this with -1 enemy terrain star. A 49% matchup on plains turns into 55%.

Nell should probably be separated from Flak/Jugger.

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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ThunderWalker » Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:55 pm

Interesting.
I remember you writing in the previous thread that you felt Flak/Jugger's occassional +2 helps out more than Nell's consistent +1 D2D, despite Nell theoretically clearly overshadowing the Black Hole CO's. I forgot if you factored in the SCOP though when writing that.
Did you change your opinion on the matter?
And yeah, I'm still going to stand by my claim that Flak/Jugger's occasional +2 will help out more than Nell's +1.
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ALAKTORN » Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:46 pm

What’s the second number in those graphs? Also, how did you feel about yesterday’s game where you lost to Jugger with Adder? I couldn’t watch much of it.

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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by Xenesis » Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:12 am

ALAKTORN wrote:What’s the second number in those graphs? Also, how did you feel about yesterday’s game where you lost to Jugger with Adder? I couldn’t watch much of it.
According to anydice, that second number should be the deviation.
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by GipFace » Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:39 pm

ThunderWalker wrote: I remember you writing in the previous thread that you felt Flak/Jugger's occassional +2 helps out more than Nell's consistent +1 D2D ... Did you change your opinion on the matter?
Very good question. The biggest takeaway from the graphs is that for Flak/Jugger/Sonja, the probabilities for each outcome are not equal. If we look at them, you'll see that at the 30% probability mark, Flak's luck is 13-24, Jugger's is 14-29, and Nell's is 14-19. So 30% of the time, Flak/Jugger perform as well or better than Nell. This sets up the observation that Flak and Jugger's +2HP is seen more than Nell's +1HP. But this game is all about the powers. As Nell's SCOP is clearly a cut above, she should be separated from Flak/Jugger.

Also my assertion was made before I realized that Flak/Jugger had 2 rolls to determine luck: one negative and one positive. This means that under SCOP, while Nell's chance of getting at least +80 luck is 20%, Jugger's chance is a terrible 2.81%.
Last edited by GipFace on Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ThunderWalker » Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:34 pm

Thanks, that explains a lot.
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by Dragonite » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:43 pm

Why do I need to take a statistics class when you have WWN? Got to deal with bell curves for the first time in 5 years. I think some bell curves with the various Luck CO's would be interesting to see actually(if that's even possible with the double calculation) I always wondered why Nell's d2d seemed so much tamer then Flak or Jugglers.

Even after a while I still find it hilarious a single unit has driven Grit to bottom tier by invalidating his turtle gamebreaking. Would the tier list shift around much without black bombs besides him?

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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by GipFace » Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:14 am

ALAKTORN wrote:What’s the second number in those graphs? Also, how did you feel about yesterday’s game where you lost to Jugger with Adder? I couldn’t watch much of it.
I threw the game with a blunder, but I still think Adder sucks. In a game where powers are so crucial, both of Adder's powers are insignificant. They don't increase his ATK, so the only way you're getting extra damage in is if you hit units you normally couldn't have hit. Flak/Jugger's SCOP is underwhelming compared to Nell's SCOP but it's still a huge ATK boost.

Spamming Adder's COP gives you 110/110 quite often, but I'm starting to think he might be worse than Jake and Lash. At least Lash has a slight ATK bonus, however small it may be. Koal probably sucks in the same manner as well. Andy is clearly above those two because he can counter mass damage and he gets an ATK boost with SCOP.

Sven was skeptical that Rachel was the 3rd-best CO in the game. So we played Kanbei vs. Rachel. Kanbei got stomped. http://www.twitch.tv/gipstream2/v/38567417

Lastly, Jake may rise because 150A on plains during SCOP seems OK based on the plains-heavy maps we're using.

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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ALAKTORN » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:36 am

I think Andy should be higher up. He heals 5HP during SCOP and it only takes 6 stars… that’s huge. He can probably use the Arty cluster strategy as the Black Bomb counter does 5HP damage only, which gets completely healed up by SCOP.

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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by Dragonite » Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:42 am

Prevents him from using his SCOP earlier then that moment though. Can he survive the black bomb hit and a attempt to pierce the cluster using a SCOP?

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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ThunderWalker » Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:55 am

Also, Andy cannot heal dead units. The Black Bomb is more likely to just be used to allow a few tanks/recons to mop-up the 5 HP units, so there wouldn't be as many Artillery units left for Andy to heal... maybe even none at all.
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by Fynmorph » Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:46 am

Javier isn't useful because the metagame is direct-unit heavy, and maps don't have com towers for balance reasons.
Balance reason ? Why not allow 1 for each side.
Satel wrote:Talking about Sasha, don't use her SCOP. It's good, just unreliable and not worth its cost because it's pretty much impossible to make a big impact with it.
her SCOP doesn't even allow a turnaround. you just beat yourself even more. When you use Dual Strike with Colin it's actually better to start with Colin (give a ATK boost), then switch to Sasha to finish off the weak units imo (and you create units twice, instead of creating units just at the end of the Dual strike when they didnt even participate at the attack)
Last edited by Fynmorph on Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ThunderWalker » Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:42 am

A Dual Strike with Colin/Sasha I would start with Sasha and just only produce infantry at the end of the turn, and then swap to Colin ^. It is not like 2-5000 funds make a huge difference for him and I am War Bonds can provide for an extra tank or two in the Tag power.

However, tags aren't used to decide the rankings, and thus completely irrelevant.

That and even if they were, there's always Hachi+Sensei for total retarded broken-ness.
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Pkdragon
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by Pkdragon » Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:33 pm

save scumming makes the luck COs pretty good if you have the patience :D

not KANBEI good

but good nevertheless

i also object to KANBEI and JAVIER not being at the top

oh wait KANBEI is close enough to the top i guess i figured people hated him because he's the anti-colin and colin is op
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ThunderWalker
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ThunderWalker » Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:39 am



Amirite?
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Sven

Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by Sven » Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:53 am

beautiful analysis pkdragon

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FormicHiveQueen
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by FormicHiveQueen » Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:36 am

Well, I'm kinda glad I abandoned my guides, because it seems I've fallen quite far behind. (That's what I get for not playing the game anymore, I guess.) Not too surprised to see that Rachel and Sasha have gone up, but Colin's demotion is interesting. I used to have some success using his SCOP against Kanbei. I also see that Grit and Javier no longer have a tier unto themselves. Are they better than previously thought, or were the tier 5 COs just that bad?

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Xenesis
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by Xenesis » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:48 pm

FormicHiveQueen wrote:I also see that Grit and Javier no longer have a tier unto themselves. Are they better than previously thought, or were the tier 5 COs just that bad?
A bit of both, I guess. They got combined because there weren't huge differences in their game coming out. And that the other COs that joined them in the same tier were about the same badness :P
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GipFace
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by GipFace » Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:58 pm

What I've discovered is that a CO with an unreliable attack boost is better than no attack boost at all.

Sasha and Adder continually perform poorly for me and may be bumped down below the luck COs. Adder/Koal aren't very good in practice and I might just take Lash and Jake over them. My Sasha lost to Jugger because all Jugger needed to break Sasha was to win 3 luck rolls during SCOP. That means you could typically have half your luck rolls fail and still come out on top.

I've never been the best at squeezing my funds to make the most cost-efficient army composition, but I'm really not digging Sasha. Maybe someone else can give her a shot.

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Bonesy
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by Bonesy » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:47 am

i really should git gud at awds

revivingadvancewars

Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by revivingadvancewars » Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:37 pm

According to this tier list, here's how I would nerf/buff the CO's:

Nerfs:

Sensei - Meter changes from xxXXXX to xxxxXXXX
Hachi - Meter changes from xxXXX to xxxxXXX ; Units during COP/SCOP cost 70% instead of 50%
Rachel - Missiles during SCOP only deal 2 damage instead of 3.
Kanbei - Units (day to day) are 115/110 instead of 120/120
Colin - Units (day to day) are 90/90 instead of 90/100.

Buffs:

Max - Units gain +1/+2 movement during COP/SCOP
Sasha - Day to day effect is doubled in value ; SCOP payoff is 1.5x
Andy - Units get 10% additional offense boost during COP.
Koal - Units get 10% additional offense on roads. ; Gets an additional 10% on roads during COP/SCOP as well.
Adder - Meter changes from xxXXX to xxXX
Jugger/Flak - Bad luck reduced by 10% day to day ; reduced by an additional 15/25% during COP/SCOP
Lash - Meter is xxxXXX instead of xxxxXXX
Jake - Units are 110/110 on Plains instead of 110/100
Javier - All units are 100/120 (both direct and indirect defense) ; COP/SCOP boosts direct defense by 20%/30% respectively. Comm Tower effects stop stacking after you control 2 of them.
Grit - Direct units are 90/100 insteas of 80/100 ; Indirect units are 100/110

GipFace
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by GipFace » Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:43 am

So wait, I could choose Von Bolt with 110/110 units, or I could pay 20% more to get a whopping +5A for Kanbei's 115/110 units? Really?

Nerfing Rachel's SCOP to 2hp per silo is easy to test with the Missile Guard skill. But I'd suspect she'd still be too strong. We'd have to test it thoroughly.

ThunderWalker
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by ThunderWalker » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:30 pm

I think the buff-nerf suggestions also miss the point of a few things that are overpowered/broken. Kanbei's main problem - in AW2 at least, is Samurai Spirit, due to the functioning of the def formula (With AWDoRs def formula it actually isn't a problem). I can only imagine it being worse in AWDS with the fast-charging powers. That, and Sami isn't mentioned at all despite Victory March being a broken mechanic. Sensei and Hachi's SCOP are pretty similar. I think Xen did a great job of curbing their powers in his AW2 hack but his incarnation of Sensei would still be very powerful in AWDS.

Also, isn't Lash COP meter xxXXXX? Or did I just play modified versions of AW2 that long that I don't even remember her original power bar?
On that note, do I even still have a clean version of AW2? I probably do, but it's likely well-hidden.
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Xenesis
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by Xenesis » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:59 pm

ThunderWalker wrote:Also, isn't Lash COP meter xxXXXX? Or did I just play modified versions of AW2 that long that I don't even remember her original power bar?
On that note, do I even still have a clean version of AW2? I probably do, but it's likely well-hidden.
Nah, AWDS Lash still has the 4/7 bar by default.
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

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scraggypunk
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by scraggypunk » Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:38 am

RIP lash
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Sven

Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by Sven » Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:17 am

ThunderWalker wrote:I think the buff-nerf suggestions also miss the point of a few things that are overpowered/broken. Kanbei's main problem - in AW2 at least, is Samurai Spirit, due to the functioning of the def formula (With AWDoRs def formula it actually isn't a problem). I can only imagine it being worse in AWDS with the fast-charging powers. That, and Sami isn't mentioned at all despite Victory March being a broken mechanic. Sensei and Hachi's SCOP are pretty similar. I think Xen did a great job of curbing their powers in his AW2 hack but his incarnation of Sensei would still be very powerful in AWDS.

Also, isn't Lash COP meter xxXXXX? Or did I just play modified versions of AW2 that long that I don't even remember her original power bar?
On that note, do I even still have a clean version of AW2? I probably do, but it's likely well-hidden.
this is just wrong information.

the most important thing is how the stats of your units compare to the stats of your opponents. if you play brenner in DoR (who's just 110/130) vs forsythe at 110/110 you will smack him silly with very little effort, despite a 'corrected' formula. the game will feel downright easy if you're even remotely close to the skill level of the other player. a 20 point differential is too much to overcome without some sort of compensating factor via a CO power/other abilities.

the AW2 formula changes things so that a point of defense is in some sense worth "more" than a point in attack. for kanbei's case though, it really doesn't matter. AW2 kanbei can very easily beat most COs without ever activating a power. just move your units in your opponent's general direction and watch them drop like flies. a 60 point stat differential is just dumb. every CO in AW2 that can even possibly deal with kanbei does it by making units of absurd quality (grit, colin, sturm), quantity (sensei), or both (hachi). and even then i'm pretty sure kanbei beats the crumpets out of most of the COs i've listed anyway.

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scraggypunk
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Re: Tier List (2016+ discussion)

Post by scraggypunk » Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:44 am

yeah i've beaten hachi as kanbei on awbw before. oh look your neotank can't even kill my infantry, that's a worthwhile use of expenses
wisdom
"the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread" - anatole france

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