While we're waiting for a DS emulator, let's talk balance...

Talk about Advance Wars DS. Debate, laugh, cry, argue about everything to do with our favourite tag game here.
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Belgdor
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Post by Belgdor » Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:43 am

ubergeneral wrote:
Belgdor wrote: fix'd...and Kindle...BALANCED?!?! SHE'S FRIGGIN' BROKEN ON LARGE MAPS! AND OVERPOWERED ON SMALL MAPS!
How is von bolt underpowered? He's is only co that gets a day to day offencive and defence boost with normal prices. His power his supposed to be weak.
1.110/110 is BARELY anything.
2.His power is OVERPRICED. 7 or 8 stars should do it.
3.He has NO good tags.
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Liam
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Post by Liam » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:07 am

I agree with Belgdor (Aphramd). Von Bolt is underpowered. No good Tags! He could have at least had like a 110% Tag with Kindle (Candy to Euros).
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ubergeneral
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Post by ubergeneral » Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:08 am

Ok i'll give you the von bolt tagging deal but still everything is about him is fine.

Okay here's von bolty tag affin,

Kindle (*) 110% (name?)

Other tags

All allied co's that appear in the NC campaign 90%
(this list would exclude Drake, Andy, Olaf, Kambei, Hawke, Lash, Hatchi, Nell, Flak and Adder)

Ok now he has a tag and can get a Dual Stike with and small handful of Co's.
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Shift Breaker
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Post by Shift Breaker » Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:03 am

OOH OOH!

Increase Rachel's Tag w/ Koal to 80% or 90%. 65% isn't logical compared to others.
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TheChronoMaster
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Post by TheChronoMaster » Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:48 am

Shift Breaker wrote:OOH OOH!

Increase Rachel's Tag w/ Koal to 80% or 90%. 65% isn't logical compared to others.
Or we could lower Eagle/Hawke and Lash/Olaf to 65%. Maybe make Kanbei/Adder 65% as well...
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Shift Breaker
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Post by Shift Breaker » Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:29 am

Give Adder a Negative Tag? Nah.

That's like giving VB a Positive. Unnecessary.
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TheChronoMaster
Location: Big Shell

Post by TheChronoMaster » Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:35 am

Shift Breaker wrote:Give Adder a Negative Tag? Nah.

That's like giving VB a Positive. Unnecessary.
But it makes story sense...
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legoman727
Location: Orange Star: Rachel's house.

Post by legoman727 » Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:55 am

If we're gonna balance out the COs, Kanbei/Sonja, Colin/Sasha, Sami/Eagle, and Rachel/Nell must be nerfed.

Von Bolt can have a 1 star tag with Kindle, 105s with Koal and Jugger, fulls with Andy, Nell, Hachi, Olaf, Drake, and Kanbei. And Ex Machina to 8 stars.

Rachel/Koal should be raised, it doesn't make sense that it's lower than Olaf/Lash or Eagle/Hawke....
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ubergeneral
Location: USA

Post by ubergeneral » Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:39 am

There is a topic like this in Advancewarsnet. In the topic they mentions that each tag affinity star should give +3% luck
rifton wrote:I think the TC deserves a medal for taking something with the most win ever, and making it fail horribly. :\
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thefalman
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Post by thefalman » Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:54 am

Hmm, would it be better to just do away with the day-to-day luck altogether? While it's fun to abuse the starred tags in campaign, in VS they could be a major pain in the ass...
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Shift Breaker
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Post by Shift Breaker » Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:24 am

I'd like to have Adder's +5% tag go with anyone instead of just Hawke & Lash. But only when he goes first.
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Terragent
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Post by Terragent » Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:59 am

That would make Adder quite broken in Tag games. Adder/Von Bolt, anyone?

Nightlit

Post by Nightlit » Sun Oct 23, 2005 1:21 pm

Why are we nerfing ALL the DS COs? This ISN'T Advance Wars 2, and it shouldn't be balanced as if it were.

That and Advance Wars 2 wasn't any more balanced than Advance Wars DS IMO, just differntly so.

But here is what I would do to the COs though:

First comes the general rules as far as I can tell for CO balance in AWDS (at least assuming the COs as they are unaltered):

A situational 10% boost requires no penalty: (Jake/Koal).

A HIGHLY situational higher power boost also requires no penalty (Kindle and Javier, I do think they are balanced, again: situationally powerful does NOT mean broken, especially when the situation is map dependant).

A 20% power boost is negated by a -10% penalty (Eagle, Jess, Drake).

+1 or -1 anything but movement is equivalent to 10% power (Max, Grit, Rachel)

Monetary benefits and penalties are hardest to balance as making Colins units 80/80 would make him incredibly underpowered and (as AW2 vets know) raising Kanbei to 130/130 makes him distinctly evil.

But it seems that a decrease is cost (or an increase in funds) of 10% is equivalent to a 10% power boost (Hachi and more importantly: Sasha).

OK now here are my suggestions as far as the rules are concerned:

10% rule: Leave as is, IMO the less COs we have to alter the better, as to an extent making ALL the COs weaker doesn't really balance them so much as change the balance entirely.

20%/-10% rule, leave as is but only to a point, as one must think about not just the POWER of the units that matter it is also the scope.

Lets look at the Green Earth COs as an example of this. Just looking at their day to day stats: Jess gets a benefit to 10 units while getting a penalty with 8, and her scopes include: +Ground units, -air units, -sea units, +/- most direct units and +/- most indirect units. Eagle gets a benefit with 4 units and a penalty with 4, but also gets a fuel bonus as well. As he is the only CO who gets anything like this there is no standard for balancing it except scope, his scope is: +Air units, -sea units, +/-some direct units, -one indirect unit. Drake has the same number of units as Eagle, +4 and -4 but he doesn't have subsidiary benefit, his scope is: -Air units, +sea units, +/-some direct units, +one indirect unit. So other than Eagles fuel benefit, Drake and Eagle are roughly equivalant day to day at least in this VERY simplisitc look at scope. Jess is better though, her scope includes Ground units, which are in most cases better than Sea or Air units (if nothing else than on the grounds that a lot of maps only have ground unit access) and her total number of beneficial units includes more and more variable units. Adding CO Powers into this mix make sit more complicated, especially when comparing Jess, Eagle and Drake as none of their COPs are anything like eachother, especially in DS.

+1 anything is equivalent to 10% penalty: I think this is roughly accurate as I don't really see Grit as overpowered (as he REALLY loses a lot in Direct Combat, not to mention that the scope of his benefits are pretty bad in terms of not only monetary cost but also in terms of targetting usefulness: Air battles tend to kick his ass unless he uses CO powers [this is information I gathered by using him by the way]. He is very good in land battles, especially one swith choke points, but the truth is that anything highly cheap that he can do nearly anyone else can, as even with a 20% power boost, it usually takes 2 shots to kill most units, which is the same number it takes most COs, and most instant kills, are still instant without the boost. Not only that but in a land Battle, Jess has the same benefit in terms of power. Without the range increase Grit would be massively underpowered. People might disagree with me on this, these are simply my opinions.

Money: I think that in general their rule works for money, but in order to make it apply to both Kanbei and Colin equally (instead of making Kanbei look more powerful than Colin. Colin - 10% loss: free equivalant to 10% power, 10% loss, for 10% power loss. Kanbei - 20% gain for 20% power gain, 20% FREE Defense gain). I would say that a better rule would be: the first 10% cost decrease should be free, and that each increase/decrease beyond the first should be equivalant to 10% power and 10% defense. Kanbei would fit this rule exactly and Colin would fit it if we made his units 90/90 as many people suggest (this is ignoring Gold Rush, which needs to be changed, but I am thinking mainly about day to day stats at the moment and will tlalk about CO Powers later). My opinion is that both Hachi and Sasha are balanced day to day (it is their COPs, not day to day stats that ring their balance into question).

CO Powers are a lot harder to balance, as they need to fit the CO, be better than their day to day stats (or give them some other advantage). Since the rules for this will break apart with many COs (like Colin and Shasha, whos COPs defy most rules in terms of power level). So I will discuss them in my splurge on the other COs.

Jake: Leave as is. Giving him indirect range is a balance for a situational Power Boost. Also, if he didn't have it then his SCOP would be too similar to Jess'. In fact, Jess' would be flat out better in even MORE cases then it already is just flat out better. Last, +1 vehicular indirect range for 1 day isn't all that powerful anyway. Yeah so he is really good in land combat? He's supposed to be. Besides, its not like it effects Carriers and Battleships.

Rachel: Leave as it, Covering Fire is NOT Broken, true it is very good on small maps against 1 opponent. But on bigger maps against more opponents it is a LOT worse. It is situationally powerful, which is something that wasn't in AW2 so much, but does not make it overpowered let alone broken. Remember, this ISN'T AW2 its AWDS. Her day to day boost is rather good as well, but it can also be taken advantage of to remove her money forcefuly with well targetted attacks, especially with missile silos, as she can't NOT do it and the extra HP of repair costs could easily lower her funds below what she needed to build a crucial unit.

Nell: Um...not sure what to do here, since without her luck boosts being uber she is underpowered as it IS a luck boost. She has no variability and no way to effect anything but the damage she does. But I can see her being overpowered though...

Hachi: Again, not sure. 10% cost decreses day to day mean nearly nothing, they have a small effect in the long run but it is his powers (mainly his SCOP) that break him. But the problem is that the part of his SCOP that is ocerpowered is not the money part but the building part (yeah the money part is powerful, but the instant 1 neo per city is the evil part, not the 1 neo per base, that is managable since he gets not other boost at all). Maybe make his COP lower his costs by 20% (to 30%) by the rverse of the money rule, though that would make him lose the power or defnese side of the equasion entirely (technically, by that rule, he is totally balanced as is as far as his price decrease, which is definitely not that case). So I really don't know.

Andy: I say leave him as is, he needs a good boost since his day to day stats are, well...nothing. That and destroying his units as oppose to maiming them negates his SCOP's main benefit. Also, since he is the only CO with no day to day benefit, it is OK for his SCOP to be more powerful. Especially since in DS the day to day benefits are more beneficial then they are penalyzing.

Max: Give him a +1 movement during his SCOP and lower the power boosts to 40/60. Don't make him better day to day (as an AW1 veteran, even the idea of Max better day to day SCARES me).

Sami: Leave her as is. Since Sami is pretty balanced, especially when you take tagging into account. Victory March is INCREDIBLY powerful, and any loss in terms of other things can be accounted for with that, especially now that CO meters charge faster, and that infantires fill it up by a comparatively large amount to the resources they cost when compared to AW2.

Olaf: Change his day to day power boost in snow to 10% (by the situational 10% free rule) and then balance his fuel benefit in snow with an equivalent fuel penalty in rain. This should balance his CO Powers out as well, as he can no longer trigger a 2 day power boost of 130% on the first day and 120% on the second day, but of 120% on the first day and then 110% on the second. The fuel penalty he can trigger is powerful, but if it starts raining with random weather he is penalyzed. Also, it owuld make there be more point to the rain from Typhoon, which serves little purpose right now as it penalyzes Drake as much as everyone else.

Grit: I would keep his Day to Day stats as is and instead increment the power boost from his CO and Super CO Powers so that his CO power isn't as evil as it is. I would suggest making Snipe Attack increase his power by 10% with indirect units (making the total 40% power during his COP) and then leave his SCOP alone, making it more worth the star cost. EIther that or make them both less powerful (130%/150%) If you adjust his day to day benefit to 10% power, I would adjust is penalty to only 10% also as "indirect units" is situational enough in my opinion to warrent being free without the range increase, which does equate to 10% loss in as many units as he loses power in.

Colin: Make his units 90/90 by my suggested rule above. Keep Power of Money the same and instead of increasing Gold Rushes star cost, decrease the money benefit it givs you to 1.25 (if you can't figure out that hack, then 4 stars seems fair for it).

Sasha: Keep her the same, she is powerful, but there really isn't a way to alter her that balances her. I would also like to point out that while her COP is rather powerful, her SCOP leaves a lot to be desired unless you are really late in a battle and both of you have incredibly expensive units. Most of the time I have used it (and I use Sasha a lot, she is one of my favorite COs) it has given be a relatively negligable advantage compared with what I already had (a 6 star SCOP to make a single powerful unit? As that it essentially what it will do in most realistic situations).

Kanbei: Leave him as is, yeah his COPs are powerful, but they seem ok for the star cost and his unit price increase is really hampering on incredibly low income maps.

Sonja: WHY does everyone want to sump the VISION! I would personally leave her day to day stats alone and then remove her CO Powers ability to lower terrain defense more. Either that or just change her into AW2 Sonja, either way works. Removing the vision boost WOULD balance her, but it would also do something incredibly horrible. She would cease to be Sonja, her day to day benefits would no longer have a similar net effect. You would have essentially made her a different CO. I say, if the day to day star lowering it too powerful, then dump that. Don't mess with her vision increase. As out of FOG it does nothingl, and in it is isn't even close to game breaking on it's own (believe me, I ALWAYS play with FOW on when playing other people in AW2, and we often have battles without Sonja even being one of the COs). Again, a situational benefits that is powerful is not broken. Especially when the situation is as battle dependent as FOW.

Sensei: Leave as is, yes his benefit to battlcopters is really good. But he only gets it with 1 unit, and his only other benefits are with only foot soldiers. That means that Anti-Airs totally destroy all of his benefits. Having a single unit as a bane, especially one as inexpensive as an A-Air is an INCREDIBE weakness. Also, his COP isn't all that powerful, even for 2 stars. As other than capturing, even 110% infantry are rather useless except when attacking other infantry. Especially when they have 9HP. And the 20% power boost to copters won't change that much on the long run as most of his 1HKOs are already pushed by his 50% bonus and to most other things another 20% won't matter that much. It is also highly unlikley that a battlecopter being damaged will be a high consideration since mose units either kill them outright or do nearly nothing to them. So the fact that a 50% power boost keeps many instant kills while it is damaged isn't all that impressive.

Grimm: I personally don't see him as overpowered. His 20% defense loss is an incredible weakness. And his COPs are rather boring. His SCOP is usually unneccessary (extra damage above 100% is totally useless and most of the time all you will need to get that 1HKO is the boost from his COP) unless you are swaming with weakner units. Which isn't a bad strategy with him as his defense loss is irrelevant if his units die instantly anyway. But even that doesn't make him overpowered, as there is still the limit of unit production centers (which even considering tage, only Sensei and Hachi can get around, sensei with only Mechs and Infantry and Hachi is broken by himself already).

Eagle: His day to day stats are fine. I would rather see him have 110/110 planes instead of 120/100 planes (I think that would be balanced as well) but thats not a balance issue, it is more of a personal preference. His COP should lower his units defense as well. Yeah, it could be removed with a CO Swap, but in this case a CO swap would almost be neccessary to save your army. This would remove his ability to use it two days in a row which would be a lot better (Even if it WOULD still be rather powerful). Another tactic would be to lock their attack for the second action, making it essentially an UBER movement boost. Though that with no penalty would make Adder look horrible, especially since you could attack before using the power.

Drake: I would change him to AW2 Drake honestly. But if we were to leave him with the 20%/-10 I think he should have something else, either his movement boost or maybe the ability to not have his vision penalyzed in rain (as now, Typhoon penalyzes his units as much as his opponents as far as weather goes. At least before he could move normally in Rain, but with DS weather that is no longer a factor). But the +! movement would even him out in sea combat. As it stands, I would much rather use Grit in a mostly naval situation.

Jess: I would make Jess' vehicle power boost 10% and keep her otherwise the same. She gets around the 20/-10 rule in three ways: First of all, her scope is the best of ANY scope for any other CO as it includes both direct and indirect units that are powerful against all unit types. Second, her penalties are somewhat lessened by her CO Powers ability to refuel (and to a lesser extent re-ammo) her units, making her not bad at all in Naval and Aerial combat despite her power penalty (which is not enough to make her lose the first strike advantage). Third, her benefits effect 2 more units than her penalties. With her COP benefits effecting an addtional 1 (APCs get the movement boost). True the scope of both Drake and Eagle's CO Powers are better, but that is offset by her day to day benefit being more useful on most maps and by her refuelling which broaden's her powers scope slightly. That and her :smallstar::smallstar::smallstar::bigstar::bigstar::bigstar: power meter (for anyone who doesn't see what I just did. I made her AW2 Jess, but removed the infantry penalty. Check out the numbers, even her CO and SUPER CO powers add up aside of the 10% power boost that all COs got during the conversion).

Javier: Leave him as is, on maps without towers (which is most of them) he isn't powerful at all. And even when there are towers, unless the number of towers he has easy access to it really large (which is unlikely) he has a distinct penalty in that it is rather easy for his opponents to remove his main advantage. Yeah, he beats Grit's ass. But anyone who uses mainly direct fire units can mostly or entirely ignore his other benefits. Having a major advantage over one CO is not grounds for being overpowered, even if that is your favorite one. And get over the 10 towers thing. In order to get even CLOSE to 10 towers Javier would need to lose so many funds (as Towers don't provide them) as to be nearly screwed. Yeah, if he got the ten towers and then put units on all of them and his HQ he just won. But that is a lot harder to do than a Victory March win with Sami against even 3 other opponents. Or a 100% defense Kanbei HQ capture on 3 of them for that matter. And no smart player would ever let him get the 10 towers. This doesn't even consider that the most towers I have seen on any map is 6, and that they are either in a place to be fought over or the most any CO automaticlaly gets is 2, and he would still have to protect them as his livelyhood nearly entirely depends on it. Also, Javier only gets defense from Towers, any CO with them gets power.

Flak: Leave as is, hes random, but fine in my book.

Adder: Leave as is, I think he is a tad underpowered but I don't see anything that can be done to change this without overpowering him. Especially now that the number of COs that grant movement boosts is cut (Jake [vehicles only and only on SCOP], Adder, Koal, Jess [vehicles only], Eagle [kind of and no footsoldiers], Sami [foot soldiers only]) and he is one of two COs that gives a universal movement boost to all units (Even Eagle's can't effect infantry).

Hawke: Leave as is, his CO meter is WAY longer than the powers themselves warrent, which is perfectly fine to balance out a universal 10% power boost, as part of that boost can be explained away by the 10% rule, and isn't game breaking even just by itself.

Jugger: Leave as is...really he isn't that different than Flak...just more random in both directions and with a longer CO meter. Meaning his SCOP is harder to get but his COP is easier to double up on, perfectly fine IMO.

Koal: Leave as is, pretty much like Adder. His COP is different (gains a star to get a pretty good Road Bonus to both powers). Nothing really to do to him, making his CO Meter the same as Adders would make him just better than him. As it stands his COP is a bit worse but his SCOP is just flat out better (140% power on roads isn't all that bad, especially as it effects air units, which lose nothingg for being on roads). Being on roads relegates your opponents to roads, plains and the occasional forest or city on most maps, so unless they are Jake, you don't lose much if you use the right units.

Kindle: Leave as is, her power boost is UBER, but it is rare and none of her powers have any real effect on maps with low numbers of facilities. The only power she has that effects units that are not near/on cities is her SCOP, and that benefit isn't all that spectacular unless she has an incredible number of facilities (since most maps relegate most COs to about 10 facilities, this will usually only be 30% power, which by itself isn't worth 6 stars. Of course, if your opponent stays clear of facilities, her COP will do literally nothing, so her SCOP is better than it in that case). Need I even mention that Andy is one of her banes as not only can he semi counter Unban Blight with Hyper Repair, but as he can repair his units without needing Facilities, he can better keep the battle away fromurban areas so long as he protects his cities with highly defensive units.

Von Bolt: I would make EX Machina (Demolition Bolt) effect the same size as a black bomb and leave it otherwise the same. That would be scary, but we have to remember that it IS a 10 star power and that he has no COP. Add to that that he only has 120/120 units during it (and only for one day) which is as powerful as his units get on his own. And I think that is more than fair. 10% power and defense isn't all that significant at all, especially at the loss of a COP and with a SCOP that is at least 2 of not 3 or 4 stars overpriced. That and in the case of Von Bolt I would rather er on the side of slightly overpowered then slightly underpowered. As he IS the final boss. And even with that SCOP, he still has nothing on Sturm.

Well, now that I have posted my really long post on my opinions on the COs. I await all of you who inevitably disagree with me. But hopefully some of you will see my points. Anyway, I'm done. This took WAY to long to write.
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Xenesis
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Post by Xenesis » Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:15 pm

Rachel: Leave as it, Covering Fire is NOT Broken, true it is very good on small maps against 1 opponent. But on bigger maps against more opponents it is a LOT worse. It is situationally powerful, which is something that wasn't in AW2 so much, but does not make it overpowered let alone broken. Remember, this ISN'T AW2 its AWDS. Her day to day boost is rather good as well, but it can also be taken advantage of to remove her money forcefuly with well targetted attacks, especially with missile silos, as she can't NOT do it and the extra HP of repair costs could easily lower her funds below what she needed to build a crucial unit.
Come on, even the die hard Rachel fans admit that Covering Fire is overpowered, by a large margin. And if it's slightly underpowered on Large maps, guess what? It doesn't matter. Her COP is BETTER on Large maps. More units = More chances to luck abuse. Which effectively cancels out the weakness of her SCOP on Large maps. Likewise, her SCOP is nuts on Small maps and her COP is rather situational. But as it is, her SCOP overshadows her COP in worth so horribly, that it may as well not be there.

And considering that we understand the targeting now, it's very easy to guesstimate what the three missiles will hit, meaning that you can set up for a chokebuster or something of the like. Plus, when you come down to it, it's only six stars. With the current system, Covering Fire is ruinous compared to Tag Breaks. It's like Meteor Strike without the stat boosts and for less than half the price (taking into account the AW2-DS bar differences). That much concentrated damage is just not nice, especially when it happens every few turns, rather than once a millenium (like Sturm's did).

Just as a point, AW1 Vs Sturm's Meteor Cost 50,000G to activate (Aka a 5-star AW2 Power) and did 4HP damage and was pretty balanced.

The fact is, Mass damage is fine. Concentrated damage is fine. Concentrated damage every few turns turns is not fine.
Nell: Um...not sure what to do here, since without her luck boosts being uber she is underpowered as it IS a luck boost. She has no variability and no way to effect anything but the damage she does. But I can see her being overpowered though...
As is, she's better than both Flak and Jugger. Simple fix is as follows. +40% Luck on COP (Same as Rachel) and +70% Luck on SCOP. Her day to day is fine.

Basically, she's more reliable, but not broken.
Sonja: WHY does everyone want to sump the VISION! I would personally leave her day to day stats alone and then remove her CO Powers ability to lower terrain defense more. Either that or just change her into AW2 Sonja, either way works. Removing the vision boost WOULD balance her, but it would also do something incredibly horrible. She would cease to be Sonja, her day to day benefits would no longer have a similar net effect. You would have essentially made her a different CO. I say, if the day to day star lowering it too powerful, then dump that. Don't mess with her vision increase. As out of FOG it does nothingl, and in it is isn't even close to game breaking on it's own (believe me, I ALWAYS play with FOW on when playing other people in AW2, and we often have battles without Sonja even being one of the COs). Again, a situational benefits that is powerful is not broken. Especially when the situation is as battle dependent as FOW.
You seem to miss the point about HOW situationally powerful Sonja is. Sonja in Fog is Hachi in predeployed powerful. The reason that dumping the vision is suggested (I suggested this way back in AW2, when I started the balance hacks), is that it makes her less situational. It's not the terrain star lowering that is a problem. It is the vision that is the problem. And guess what? Drake lost his naval defence and movement in AWDS, but guess what? He's still Drake. He is still a naval specialist. Sonja can be a FoW specialist without being broken by removing her vision day to day and give it to her on her powers only. I mean, as is, her powers are quite nice.

The reason no one usually objects to a specialist in their area of expertise, is that there is always a way around them. There are other COs that can compete with their abilities. Max or Grit for example, are an apt match for Drake at Sea. Likewise, Grimm and Hawke can give Eagle headaches in the Air. Lash can give Kindle a run for her money.

But in Fog, Sonja is peerless. There is no effing way to get around her advantages. There is NO CO who can even match up to her in any way, shape or form.

And a final question. Why does a specialist have to have their big advantages day to day? Adder's a movement specialist, but he only gets his benefits on his powers. Lash specialises in Terrain, but only gets a small day to day advantage, and pulls out the big guns on Powers. Why does Sonja NEED her day to day vision? Especially if it can be provided by fast charging CO powers, at the effect of NOT making her broken in Fog.
Drake: I would change him to AW2 Drake honestly. But if we were to leave him with the 20%/-10 I think he should have something else, either his movement boost or maybe the ability to not have his vision penalyzed in rain (as now, Typhoon penalyzes his units as much as his opponents as far as weather goes. At least before he could move normally in Rain, but with DS weather that is no longer a factor). But the +! movement would even him out in sea combat. As it stands, I would much rather use Grit in a mostly naval situation.
You seem to really underestimate the new navy. AW2 Drake would be sickening in AWDS. His cruisers would just not die. Period. They'd be the scourge of the seas and he could take on anything. AW2 Drake would ensure that any Air unit is toast. The fact is, Cruisers are REALLY hard to kill in AWDS. Plus, he'd have 8 Movement Black boats, Scary subs (which have been boosted slightly since AW2 anyhow!).

The reason that Drake had such a huge AW2 Advantage at sea was because the Navy was underpowered compared to the Airforce. The cruisers NEEDED first strike to not die to Copters. In AWDS, there's no such problem. If the AW2 Navy was like the AWDS Navy, Navy Vs Air HC would have been close to as hard as Cleanup NC.

Because the balance between Navy and Air has been equalised, Drake doesn't need such extreme advantages.

Javier: Leave him as is, on maps without towers (which is most of them) he isn't powerful at all. And even when there are towers, unless the number of towers he has easy access to it really large (which is unlikely) he has a distinct penalty in that it is rather easy for his opponents to remove his main advantage. Yeah, he beats Grit's ass. But anyone who uses mainly direct fire units can mostly or entirely ignore his other benefits. Having a major advantage over one CO is not grounds for being overpowered, even if that is your favorite one. And get over the 10 towers thing. In order to get even CLOSE to 10 towers Javier would need to lose so many funds (as Towers don't provide them) as to be nearly screwed. Yeah, if he got the ten towers and then put units on all of them and his HQ he just won. But that is a lot harder to do than a Victory March win with Sami against even 3 other opponents. Or a 100% defense Kanbei HQ capture on 3 of them for that matter. And no smart player would ever let him get the 10 towers. This doesn't even consider that the most towers I have seen on any map is 6, and that they are either in a place to be fought over or the most any CO automaticlaly gets is 2, and he would still have to protect them as his livelyhood nearly entirely depends on it. Also, Javier only gets defense from Towers, any CO with them gets power.
Uh. Javier gets both power and defence from towers. Every other CO gets +10/+0. Javier gets +10/10 per tower.

Anyhoo, People who quote 10 Towers are fools. It's the 2 Towers that breaks him. There are enough maps where it's quite easy to get 2 towers per player. 120/120 units for 100% cost is just not nice. Basically it makes him Kanbei with no penalties, apart from needing to stick an infantry guard on a tower or two (and taking 1/2 damage is pretty slick for guarding, you have to admit). As is, Javier is balanced in 0-1 Towers. And basically, all that breaks him is that he has too much defence. Halving his defence bonus to 5% per tower, means that he's pretty well balanced until you hit 4 towers per player, but there's no maps that do that by default.
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Shift Breaker
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Post by Shift Breaker » Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:30 pm

Terragent wrote:That would make Adder quite broken in Tag games. Adder/Von Bolt, anyone?
Ah. Yes. The flaw in my fiendish plan. Never mind.
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Post by Kireato » Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:19 am

About Nell:

Both Jugger and Flak rely on powers with huge luck boost, but at the same time, they take some risk. A strong, solely positive luck, super power is still very powerful.

I'd make her:
Day to day:
20 positive randam damage
Power:
40 positive random damage
Super:
60 positive random damage
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Blame Game

Post by Blame Game » Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:48 am

All right, time for my say.

Andy: He's fine, really. I wouldn't mind a 7 star SCOP, I guess, but it's unneccessary. Terragent's idea is interesting, as well. Still, it isn't necessary.

Max: Perfectly fine.

Sami: Eagle tag needs to be bumped down a star or two, but otherwise she's fine.

Rachel: Adding stars would be rediculous. Make the missiles do 2 damage, and she's perfect.

Jake: Fine.

Nell and Hachi: Xen's changes work, but maybe his Super should just bring it up to his day-to-day price?

Olaf: Fine. (Give him a negative tag with Drake. >_>)

Grit: Xen's change works, but I must say that it is always funny to see my brother wait it out for his SCOP when it does the same damage. >.>

Colin: I think Xen's change works fine.

Sasha: Fine.

Eagle: His COP isn't THAT good, people. He's fine.

Drake: Fine.

Jess: 115/100 vehicles is fine.

Javier: Hm... I suppose the +5% defense from towers is fine. No way is it a good idea to take away the defense bonus altogether, though. It just ruins him.

Kanbei: Fine.

Sonja: Enhanced Vision, useful? I'm in. Xen's changes are fine. Again.

Sensei: Fine.

Grimm: Fine.

Flak: Fine.

Adder: Fine.

Lash: xxxXXXX meter, please.

Hawke: Fine.

Jugger: I dunno. I think the change to a high-attack/bad luck CO would be interesting, but I like the current Jugger, as well. I say we go for it.

Koal: Fine.

Kindle: Fine.

Von Bolt: 8 star Super. An affinity with Kindle makes sense.

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Post by Tronn_Bonne » Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:49 am

Ok, here are my two cents on the AWDS COs.

:andyds: Andy: I’m really torn on this one. On one hand I think he is fine but on the other hand I think he should have his SCOP nerfed and given a day-to-day ability. I was thinking about giving him a day-to-day ability of reducing repair costs by 10% per 1HP and making his SCOP a 2 HP repair with the 20% attack boost and +1 movement to all units. Yet, he is also not really overpowered with his SCOP now. If you think about it his SCOP should be a 4HP repair. However, Andy gets 5HP, +1 movement to all units and the additional 20% attack boost (30% when you add the standard boost from a CO Power) to all units. That makes his SCOP worth 1-2 more stars more than it actually costs now. However, this is countered by Andy’s lack of any day-to-day boost. Furthermore, his COP is actually more useful in AWDS then it was in AW2 because it gives Andy the standard attack boost of 10% and, because CO meters charge faster than they did in AW2, you no longer feel the need to always save up for the SCOP. In practice I have found myself using Andy’s COP quite frequently because it was more advantageous for me to push the attack instead of waiting for the SCOP to charge. Terr’s idea is also interesting but I think it is overall better to have any compensation for Andy’s lack of a day-to-day boost concentrated in his SCOP rather than his COP which can be taken advantage of more often. Anyway, I will stop now since I am going on a rant but I think he is, overall, fine the way he is.

:maxds: Max: IS got him right this time so no changes here.

:samids: Sami: She is great in this version.

:rachel: Rachel: 2 damage missiles and she’s set.

:jake: Jake: Perfect.

:nellds: Nell: What Xen said.

:hachids: Hachi: Terr’s idea.

:olafds: Olaf: Overall, he is fine the way he is now.

:gritds: :colinds: :sasha: Grit/Colin/Sasha: I think Terr’s suggestions work best for all three of them.

:eagleds: Eagle: He’s fine.

:drakeds: Drake: Fine.

:jessds: Jess: 115/100 vehicles and 90/100 Foot Soldiers.

:javier: Javier: +5% defense per tower should work out. I wished there was a way to make him not so dependent upon the presence of towers but I can’t think of any without radically changing one of his CO Powers.

:kanbeids: Kanbei: Perfect.

:sonjads: Sonja: Yeah, she is a tough one to deal with. I think she should have -10 luck day-to-day and -1 to enemy terrain stars. Also, the terrain glitch should be fixed if possible.
COP: +2 Vision, -2 Terrain Stars, Piercing Vision, and Hidden HP.
SCOP: -3 Terrain Stars, First Strike Counters, and Hidden HP.

:senseids: Sensei: I think he fits well in AWDS.

:grimm: Grimm: Nothing wrong with him.

:flakds: Flak: He is a perfect CO.

:adderds: Adder: I think Adder is great and the only change that I would suggest is to actually make it so his CO Meter charges 10% faster than everyone else’s.

:lashds: Lash: 3 star COP and 7 star SCOP is a must.

:hawkeds: Hawke: Great the way he is.

:jugger: Jugger: High attack and bad luck is the best solution to make him different from Flak. Otherwise, keep him the way he is.

:koal: Koal: He’s great.

:kindle: Kindle: She is fine.

:vonbolt: Von Bolt: 8 star Super and a tag with Kindle.
Last edited by Tronn_Bonne on Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Marsillio

Post by Marsillio » Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:52 pm

Andy - SCOP should repair 4 HP and give 20% firepower bonus.

Sami - After seeing the what she can do with those capture skill bonuses I agreed with the transport nerf, but it wouldin't hurt to give her foot soldiers a 10% defense bonus or up them back to 130/100.

Max - I honestly don't think theres any adequate way to balance -1 attack range to indirects. Even AW1 Max was easy prey for indirects at any kind of chokepoint. I'd like to see him with normal range indirects but with a 40% firepower penalty and make his directs 140/100 and 160/100 under CO powers.

Rachel - I don't know. That SCOP is so horrifically broken on small maps...

Jake - No comment.

Nell - I don't agree with nerfing her because she's supposed to be broken, but if I had to I'd put damage caps on her powers.

Hachi - I feel the same way about Hachi as with Nell, but a COP that cuts costs to 30% and SCOP only gives the 50% price cut. Increase the SCOP's cost to seven or eight stars.

Olaf - Perfect as is.

Grit - No firepower bonus day to day, COP only gives firepower bonus and SCOP adds another attack range to indirects and a firepower bonus.

Colin - 85% cost day-to-day, COP cost either three or four stars, and his SCOP gives 2% firepower bonus for every 1000g.

Sasha - No comment.

Kanbei - Fine day-to-day, COP should give 140/130 stats and the SCOP should give 150/140 and the 1.5 counter attack bonus.

Sonja - Holy crap she's broken. Just a normal +1 vision bonus day to day and the counter attack bonus, with the COP giving giving an adittional vision range but she can only see two or three spaces into forests and reefs. SCOP has got to lose that 'attack first during counter attacks' bonus and only give a large counter attack bonus and +2 to vision range. She should not have that terrain defense piercing ability as there's no reason for her to be anything but mediocre outside FoW.

Sensei - He should have his AW2 stats.

Grimm - 120/80 day-to-day, 140/80 or 150/80 during the COP, and 160/80 or 170/80 during the SCOP.

Eagle - 80/100 naval units.

Drake - 80/100 air units.

Jess - AW2 stats please.

Javier - Hm... the defense bonus he gets from com towers could stand to be nerfed to 5% each, but he's still fine as is.

Adder - Perfect as is.

Flak - No comment.

Lash - COP should cost two stars.

Hawke - He's mediocre, not balanced. Four star COP and an eight star SCOP please.

Jugger - No comment.

Koal - Hm... fine as is, but 20% firepower bonus on roads wouldin't break him.

Kindle - No comment.

Von Bolt - He could use 1 movement cost over all terrain. SCOP cost needs to be lowered too.
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Shift Breaker
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Post by Shift Breaker » Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:51 pm

I think I've got a final Decision....

:andyds: - 3HP recovery on cities Day to day. Maybe 7 stars for SCOP.

:maxds: - Some sort of meld between AW2 & DS. Maybe 180/100 stats for directs for SCOP & +1 Movement too. He's powerful, and he can reach them.

:samids: - +1 Movement for Transports. Possibly +10% attack for Foot Soldiers.

:jake: - SAME'D

:rachel: - Either 7 Stars for CF, and Permenant Missile Guard, removal of 3HP recovery on cities.

:nellds: - +15% luck Day-to-Day, +40% COP, +70% SCOP.

:hachids: - 90% Costs Day to Day, 75% during COP & SCOP, :smallstar::smallstar::smallstar::bigstar::bigstar::bigstar::bigstar:

:olafds: - Same.

:gritds: - Same.

:colinds: - :smallstar::smallstar::smallstar::bigstar::bigstar::bigstar: Stops DGR, which is cheap. But you can still use it pretty early in the battle.

:sasha: - Same.

:eagleds: - Same.

:drakeds: - Same.

:jessds: - 115/00 Ground Unit Stats. Maybe 90/100 for foot soldiers.

:javier: - 5%/7% for Tower defence Bonus

:kanbeids: - Same

:sonjads: - Remove extra Vision for Counter Break, :smallstar::smallstar::smallstar::bigstar::bigstar::bigstar:

:senseids: - AW2 Sami Stats for Foot Soldiers.

:grimm: - Same'D/10!!

:flakds: - Same.

:lashds: - +5% per star Day to Day, +10% per star during COP, +5% per star during SCOP, Double Stars. Always 1 Movement cost.

:adderds: - Rename Sidewinder to Snakebite, +15% offencive boost during SCOP.

:hawkeds: - On Large Maps, He's almost as cheap as Sturm was anywhere(OMFGTURNTHETIDES). But keep the same. He's good. Worthy of being BH Leader(Or Macro Land Division).

:jugger: - Like, Edit completly. Somehow.

:koal: - Same as usual.

:kindle: - I suppose keep the same. Or Maybe lower SCOP damage by 10%.

:vonbolt: - He's quite underbalanced. +5% affinity w/ Zak/Jugger, 10% w/ Candy. He should be sort of cheap, as he is the final boss. Sturm on AW2 Balance Patch Just Plain Sucked to fight against. Dunno what to do.
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pictish
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Post by pictish » Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:03 pm

Shift - can we stop underpowering Rachel please? No need to take away 3hp recovery on cities whatsoever, as it's a double edged sword albeit, one controlled by the Rachel player, but lots of powers/clever targetting of attacks can still really mess her up for a turn.

Covering fire = Missile guard. Yay, fixed. Hell, with how covering fire works you can put 3 infantry somewhere away from the fight and let them take 1 missile every time. Could even potentially make it two missiles if you slowly built a formation of them. (They'd take the infantry missile and the overall HP missile) meaning 2 damage to a single group of units. Hi olaf and Drake, I can copy you without added efects on a small group, how happy am I?

Then of course, she starts relying more on her COP, so no screwing with that either please >.<

Simplest solution is the best one - missile guard vs Rachel. Here's hoping AI abuse on covering fire wont be the end of her.
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Post by Xenesis » Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:24 pm

:vonbolt: - He's quite underbalanced. +5% affinity w/ Zak/Jugger, 10% w/ Candy. He should be sort of cheap, as he is the final boss. Sturm on AW2 Balance Patch Just Plain Sucked to fight against. Dunno what to do.
Er, the point was to make Sturm balanced, not to make him more broken.

AND HOW MANY fudge TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT MYSELF? WE'RE TRYING TO BALANCE HERE, SO WHY DO YOU SUGGEST WE MAKE VON BOLT BROKEN?
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Post by Shift Breaker » Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:44 pm

THERE WAS NO SUGGSTION OF OVERPOWERING VON BOLT IN THAT POST

I love typing big.
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Post by Xenesis » Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:47 pm

He should be sort of cheap, as he is the final boss.
Pwned.
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Shift Breaker
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Post by Shift Breaker » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:33 am

o_O

Wow. I type things without realising.

Xen has Pwned me. That rawks. Besides...I did say sort of cheap. Also,

I'M TYPING LARGE BECAUSE XEN PWNED ME!
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mayojjin

Post by mayojjin » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:43 am

Von Bolt - Make his meter charge as fast when he's attacking as when he's being attacked. That's what I'm doing for NWO.

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Blame Game

Post by Blame Game » Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:13 am

Tronn_Bonne wrote:Andy: I’m really torn on this one. On one hand I think he is fine but on the other hand I think he should have his SCOP nerfed and given a day-to-day ability. I was thinking about giving him a day-to-day ability of reducing repair costs by 10% per 1HP
:( *points to CCO Joyce*

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Post by Tronn_Bonne » Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:32 am

Blame Game wrote: :( *points to CCO Joyce*
My apologies, I was not aware that you had done a CCO with reduced repair costs Blame Game :o Well, in that case I suggest leaving Andy the way he is.
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Location: zealously guarding that bridge

Post by Indeconterion » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:01 pm

Hey Terragent, I just noticed something....Your custom title looks better with the Flak picture :P (I'm serious)

I'll get into game mechanics once I ge tmore experience with the game, until then, I'm still AW2 fashioned :cry:
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ubergeneral
Location: USA

Hey I have an idea for koal

Post by ubergeneral » Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:53 am

since he's so much like adder lets make him a transport specailist

Day to day he gets his road boost and transports get +2 move
His infanrty have 80/100
Co still *** but now transports get + 1 move (3) and everything else gets +1 move
SCOP his troops get only +1 move but transports get + 4 move

hmm it would hurt his tag with adder.
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Post by Shinuzzo » Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:14 pm

+2/+4 transport movement is overppowered. For Koal, I suggest giving one movement on the SCOP, but boost his road bonuses to 115/135/155 and consider bridges as road if possible. If not make that 120/140/160.

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Post by Xenesis » Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:26 pm

^That would make his super completely and utterly worthless on some maps, as there are more than a couple of maps that don't have any roads whatsoever.
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Shinuzzo

Post by Shinuzzo » Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:41 pm

Okay, maybe 115 on bridges/roads, 150 on bridges/roads, +1 movement and -1 terrain movement during the SCOP?

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Tronn_Bonne
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Post by Tronn_Bonne » Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:32 am

ubergeneral wrote:since he's so much like adder lets make him a transport specailist
Shinuzzo wrote:+2/+4 transport movement is overppowered. For Koal, I suggest giving one movement on the SCOP, but boost his road bonuses to 115/135/155 and consider bridges as road if possible. If not make that 120/140/160.
I think Koal is fine the way he is (With the exception that also applying his terrain attack boost to bridges would be really helpful :) ). Sensei already fills the role of a Transport specialist and increasing Koal's bonus on roads/bridges (As Xen pointed out) would make him too terrain, and therefore map, dependent. Yet if people really don’t like Koal’s similarities with Adder then the best solution is to make his movement bonuses during his CO Powers apply only to certain units. This is similar to ubergeneral’s suggestion of increasing Transport movement but I would apply it to a broad base of units. I would, if necessary, change Koal as follows:

:koal: Koal
COP Meter: :smallstar: :smallstar: :smallstar: :bigstar: :bigstar:
Day-to-day: 10% attack boost on roads and bridges.
COP: 20% attack boost on roads and bridges. +2 movement to all land vehicular units.
SCOP: 30% attack boost on roads and bridges. +3 movement to all land vehicular units and +1 movement to all foot soldiers, air units, and naval units.

This would make him a land, specifically vehicular, movement specialist (which does fit with the road theme) but it would further weaken him when it comes to using movement to capture properties and for air/naval maps.
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Post by Shift Breaker » Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:39 am

Zak's fine, his playing style is VERY different from Adder.

Jugger though...
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Post by Tronn_Bonne » Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:43 am

Shift Breaker wrote:Zak's fine, his playing style is VERY different from Adder.

Jugger though...
I agree 100% with you but some people still complain about Koal’s similarities to Adder. They just need to play both of them to see the difference though :wink: Jugger, however, does need some changes :? The ability to perform a Double Overclock (most of the time) and slightly more erratic day-to-day luck does not equal a different playing style.
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Post by Guest » Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:24 am

I think Koal/Zak should be the anti-terrian specialist. He does want to destroy Omega Land. He would be come this.

Day-to-day: 10% boost on roads
Power: 30% boosty on roads, -1 terrian star for enemy
SCOP: 50% boost on roads, -2 enemy terrian stars

This removes the weakness of no cover on roads, and Sonja keeps her FOW abilities, although they will need to be toned down. Sonja was ment for FOW.

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Location: Orange Star: Rachel's house.

Post by legoman727 » Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:40 am

+3 move during SCOP? Do you have any idea how broken that is?
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Blame Game

Post by Blame Game » Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:04 am

Kinda changing the subject here, but I looked through the topic a second time and I'd like to note that 230% firepower on cities isn't overpowered. I mean, look at Lash: 140/170 stats on a city with her Super, easily on par with Kindle's bonus, if not BETTER. Of course, Kindle does get an additional bonus, but, well, so does Lash. My point is that just because a number is big doesn't mean that the CO is broken. *points to Max and Grimm*

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Tronn_Bonne
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Post by Tronn_Bonne » Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:39 am

legoman727 wrote:+3 move during SCOP? Do you have any idea how broken that is?
+3 movement is not horribly broken if it applies only to vehicular units. I actually think getting the +2 movement to vehicular units for 3 stars is more broken than the +3 for the SCOP. However, I do agree that it would make Koal extremely strong in a ground war. Regardless, I think Koal is fine the way he is and I my previous example was simply to demonstrate a way in which Koal could be changed but would also remain a movement based CO.
"I wish my PS1 wasn't dead. Talking to you makes me wanna go play Megaman Legends again." - JuggerV2
“Tronn wins an internet. Or all the Koal quotes that ever existed.. You decide.” - Guesty

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