Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

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Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DTaeKim » Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:24 pm

Welcome to the second version of the tier list. We have a tentative competitive game in Custom Wars when all custom content is banned.

Sven and I divided them into tiers. I fully expect a lot of debate with the listings here. Xenesis' balance changes are NOT considered.

As you can see, there are no luck COs involved. This will probably remain for quite some time.

The broken trio have been added for the moment, and other changes have been made to the list as the charge rate changes since AW2 have been noted. The most notable change you will notice is Drake.

Broken
Hachi, Colin, Grit, Sensei

Top
Kanbei, Kindle, Sami, Eagle

High
Sonja, Jess, Rachel

Middle
Von Bolt, Hawke, Olaf, Sasha, Max

Low
Andy, Koal, Jake, Javier, Adder, Drake

Bottom
Grimm, Lash

Unranked
Nell, Flak, Jugger
Last edited by DTaeKim on Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:59 am, edited 11 times in total.
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Post by DTaeKim » Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:26 pm

Fixed.
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Post by Hexagon » Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:32 pm

Where's Sasha? >>

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Post by Newbie » Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:32 pm

She died to theorycrafting.
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Post by DTaeKim » Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:32 pm

Fixed. Again.
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Post by Sven » Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:54 pm

Reasoning, Deoxy, reasoning.

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Post by Treedweller » Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:04 pm

Sasha should be in 'High' rather than 'Upper', but I'll forgive you all purely thanks to your AW BW experiences... :wink:

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Post by Sven » Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:18 pm

Dear Treed, dear Treed. REASONING my good fellow.

Sometime tommorow I'll type up a little explanation on why everyone is where they are.

To put it bluntly Treed, normally Sasha can just be a whore and force the enemy into COPing, but use her superior day to day to basically win. Using the Sasha bank... Okay, let's just say that you sacrifice even a bit a turn, if you stall you can literally shut down enemy powers for long enough... She has so many options. A lesser note is better capturing due to more funds.

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Post by GaroNinja » Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:12 pm

Hmm... I'll admit, I know next to nothing about AW online. Certainly less than you two. But some things... I really want to hear the reasoning behind.

I dunno, I can see Drake being Bottom Tier, but not Grimm.

Mathematically, he pwns you on the roads, beats you on the plains, beats you again on the forests, edges you out on cities, and loses very slightly on mountains and HQs. So day to day, he's fine. Sure, he can't meatshield worth crap, but the opponent has an even harder time meatsheilding against him either, so that's hardly a weakness.

I must then assume that his powers are to blame, but I just don't see it. He hits the same values Max does for firepower, but with all units. He loses out 20% defense against Max during powers, sure, but I can't see that beomg enough to drop two full tiers...

Seriously, enlighten me, I feel like I'm overlooking something really obvious here.

As for Rachel... I still think Covering Fire is the most overated power in the entire game. I dunno, maybe it's something you have to face to see its true power... But still, Rachel at the same level as Nell? THE "my infantry deal 50% damage on average to your megatanks during my super" Nell? I'd peg them about even day to day (though I admit I may be way, way off there), Nell's COP flat out destroys Rachel's, and I really don't see Covering Fire bridging that gap, not compared to +100% frikkin' luck... Or is that just an acceptable power variance within Tiers?

Flak and Jugger at Low, too? Sure, Flak sucked in AW2, but now he's gotten a full +10% boost to his upper luck range. I'd think that'd at least get him up to middle... Eh. Maybe I'm spoiled by the Jugger/Koal tag with the Luck forces, I'll admit.

All the others, though... I really can't argue with.

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Post by Nobody » Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:18 pm

Well, I agree with a lot of these (almost all I guess). The ones I don't really agree with aren't far off.

For Grimm, he has great indirects but horrible directs. While his powers help him own enemies, he gets owned by powers far worse. A movement power hammers him pretty hard. Max's COP is enough to OHK Grimm's units in the 55% matchup. Grimm's powers are balanced enough, but his inability to take enemy powers hurts. I may be completely wrong here though.

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Post by Kireato » Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:15 pm

Drake is honestly what strikes me most in that tier.

And honestly, I would throw Sensei to middle, same for Olaf, and mix what's left of upper and high.
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Post by Terragent » Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:28 pm

Oh, come on, you can't honestly think that Von Bolt is as powerful as Nell.

The biggest problem with a single list like this is that the CO abilities are far too situational to have a be-all and end-all list; Jess would probably be in the 'high' category in a mixed sea/air/land map and in the bottom tier in a small island map, while Kanbei would jump up to the top tier (and Colin and Sasha fall to the bottom) in pre-deployed. Similarly, Sonja would easily be top tier in a fog match, Eagle would be low tier in a map with no air units, and Drake would be much more powerful in large ocean maps with no sea units.

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Post by Xenesis » Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:46 pm

Sasha being in upper strikes me, as AWBW has slower charging stars which makes Sasha's COP about 4x more effective (Twice as long to charge the power and save money, as well as it affecting the opponent for twice as long, on average).

As we're all only used to using AWBW/AW2's charge, it makes Sasha a lot less effective in AWDS Proper, as CO Powers are a lot more common and Sasha has a lot more trouble stopping them in an actual game of AWDS.
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Post by Kireato » Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:20 am

Drake would be much more powerful in large ocean maps with no sea units.

O_o
Oh, come on, you can't honestly think that Von Bolt is as powerful as Nell.


I ignore luck COs altogether. They can't be tiered, but one can't deny Nell is superior to the conventional boost COs and less useful than the broken trio.

I mainly noticed the upper tier COs either have large day to days/powers or unconventional abilities which could be abused.

As we're all only used to using AWBW/AW2's charge, it makes Sasha a lot less effective in AWDS Proper, as CO Powers are a lot more common and Sasha has a lot more trouble stopping them in an actual game of AWDS.


I'm unsure concerning the charging arguement. Powers being charged faster doesn't mean you'll use them as much. Infantry spams and an overly defensive game prevent many powers from being all that useful.
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Post by Xenesis » Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:25 am

Hey, to be fair, I never said where to move her, I just said it should be something to keep in mind, because we don't really know the full ramifications of the AWDS charge system yet.
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Post by DTaeKim » Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:42 am

You will have to ask Sven for Sasha's placement.

Obviously, this is subject to debate. We're all used to it now, aren't we?

Right now, I'll just cover why Grimm is considered bottom tier: COPs hurt him. Movement-based powers screw him over. Judging by the current strats used on AWBW, indirect and meatshields dominate the playing field. Grimm's meatshields don't hold up well at all, leaving his indirects open to abuse. In conclusion, 80% defense is simply too much of a weakness to overcome, though he holds his own VERY well against some of the higher tiered COs. Give him 90% defense, and he'll most likely rise in rank.
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Post by GaroNinja » Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:37 am

That's silly. On the roads, against a bland CO, 80% defense opens up exactly 1 new 1 hit kill for infantry; Artillery. Meanwhile, 130% offense opens up one hit KOs for Tanks and Copters against infantry on the roads. (Admitably, unbland COs can take advantage of this same OHKO against him, though). Sure, he sucks at meatshielding, and meatshielding is a popular strategy... But he's even better at breaking meatshields. This holds up at any level of terrain before 4 stars. Yeah, it's a significant weakness that he still takes 90% of normal damage on a city. But his opponent takes 91% of normal damage on a city, meaning it's harder for the opponent to hold cities against Grimm than it is for Grimm to hold a city! How is this not only underpowered, but even bottom tier?

As for movement COPs... There's like... 4 of them (Adder, Koal, Jess, Eagle)? 6 if we count SCOPs (Jake and Andy). That's about a quarter of all the COs in the game, and if being beaten by Eagle and Jess is a reason, a lot more COs would be bottom tiered. A reasonable complaint, yes, but... Bottom tier? Seems way too harsh.

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Post by DTaeKim » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:13 am

With Grimm, the first strike means everything. Without it, Grimm is helpless. Movement-based COPs thrive on the first strike, which is a hefty penalty against Grimm, since he suffers even more than the average CO. To break even defensively, Grimm needs to be on a forest or higher, which can't be entirely relied upon.

It doesn't matter if Grimm can score OHKOs. His defense ensures that any ground gained will be lost in the counterattack, unless he has overwhelming numbers to fortify his new ground. I'll show you an example of this.

http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=32618

Grimm in that situation can break the chokepoint, but he will need more units than the average CO to hold his position. Thanks to his weak defense, even a Recon unit can deal heavy damage against his meatshields and indirects.
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Post by Guesty » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:25 am

Don't Recon units already deal heavy damage to meatshields and indirects anyway?
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Post by Xenesis » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:29 am

Although, I have to admit, Grimm comes into his own in Tag Games.
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Post by DTaeKim » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:41 am

We're not considering tags in this list. It would be hell to consider it, since we would have to go through each and every individual tag.

Guesty: Base damage of a Recon vs. Infantry is 70%. Base damage of a Recon vs. Artillery is 45%.

A Grimm Recon would deal 91% damage to an Infantry on a road. Therefore, with some luck, Grimm could feasibly OHKO an Infantry. On the other hand, a bland CO deals 84% to Grimm on a road. A specialist CO with a recon can push this to at least 91% damage. The destruction is mutual here.

Same goes to the Recon vs. Artillery matchup.

The Recon vs. Infantry matchup is crippling, but the Recon vs. Artillery not as much, though it is there.
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Post by Guesty » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:53 am

I see.
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Post by Terragent » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:24 am

Ignoring tags is an instant failure, because practically every game in AWDS is a tag game.

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Post by GaroNinja » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:36 am

DTaeKim wrote:Guesty: Base damage of a Recon vs. Infantry is 70%. Base damage of a Recon vs. Artillery is 45%.

A Grimm Recon would deal 91% damage to an Infantry on a road. Therefore, with some luck, Grimm could feasibly OHKO an Infantry. On the other hand, a bland CO deals 84% to Grimm on a road. A specialist CO with a recon can push this to at least 91% damage. The destruction is mutual here.


Exactly. With Grimm, the destruction is always mutual. Grimm can charge a choke, but can't hold the ground he takes, just as you said. However, while the opponent can charge Grimm's choke, they'll be unable to hold the ground that they take from him, for the exact same reason.

Any strategy you can use to counter Grimm's low defense day to day is moot because he can just use his high offense to produce the exact same results against you. The only thing I can't deny is power specific strategies, like the problem he has against movement based COs.

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Post by Kiltman2 » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:46 am

....Drake bottom tier?

Explaination please?

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Post by Nobody » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:51 am

He's practically bland D2D but he doesn't have cheap powers.

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Post by TehMutaRuzh » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:56 am

I know that the air weakness will often hurt Drake a lot, but I didn't really expect him to be stuck in bottom tier. I think his powers more than make up for that: air units have nowhere to hide against his powers, and his SCOP causes fog to roll in, which screws over air units a whole lot due to air units generally having average to poor vision range. It could also screw over the Drake player a lot too, but that player would just have to prepare for it I suppose.
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Post by DTaeKim » Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:09 am

Terragent: While that's true, some games are still played 1v1.

As for Drake being bottom tier, Nobody said it best.
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Post by Sven » Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:21 am

Starting from the top, and working our way down. COs are not ordered within tiers, though we could figure that out if you truly desired. >_>...

Top
Colin, Hachi, Grit


Does this really need to be explained? Colin has possibly the best capturing phase in the game, as well as a D2D that allows him to jump tech to MDs rather easily. With his COP, jumping tech to Neotanks, or building many small units, is very close. Hachi... You have merely an upper tier day to day yeah. And compared to broken COs, you will be out day to dayed. But making mechs on the frontlines for 1500, and MD tanks for 8000, and a key one to note is AA for 4000. Basically, you can remake yourself an army for five stars, and these guys will give you your next bar...

Grit there is a huge controversy over in most people's minds. Here's why he's still at the top. Grit completely shuts down any form of enemy indirects because his have more day to day range. From there, his improved indirects are more then capable of taking out a direct/infantry only army. That's freaking broken, I'd go so far to say that he could take out Colin or Hachi.

Could Nell possibly be in here? Yes. Should she be in here due to averages? Yes.
But because she is a luck CO, and due to the sheer random nature in the abilities, she has automatically been dropped a tier to Upper.

Could Kanbei possibly in here? Maybe. He has the SCOP for it, but getting hurt in capturing in terms of APCs is not fun. Drops him to Upper.

Upper
Rachel, Sonja, Jess, Kanbei, Kindle, Eagle, Nell, Sasha


Ah yes, the nightmare of justification. Let's just start with Nell.

Tech tree that rapes averages, day to day that is above average, and luck that can possibly create things that should never ever happen... but it's still luck, so she gets denied top tier for now.

From there, we move onto Sonja. Weakness that is... Almost neglible, but still there yes. However, we get terrain reduction. Dropping city defence, and making plains back to 55% matchups is great, put rather bluntly. Nevermind the fact that you still have hidden HP, though personally that was much better with her ridiculous 150% counters. You go on and see her COP isn't useless anymore with some terrain reduction... But then the SCOP is just rape. YOU REMOVE CITY DEFENSE ARGAHRHGAHRHAGHAHRHAHGHAHH. And then from there... You get first strike counters. Let me roll over and die, this isn't broken, but it's more then solid enough for upper tier.

Rachel is next. Above average day to day which makes healing on cities much more practical, and making people attacking you on cities... Not the greatest idea. We have a COP which average wise is quite nice, but it's luck, so we can say that her day to day and COP would be merely a high tier thing. But... then we get that SCOP. Infantry are most massed as meatshields. Meatshields are next to your big units. Your big units are the most expensive. A potential 9 damage to your big units is NOT balanced, when mere infantry/recons/tanks can run around killing Megas.

Jess... Jess, Jess, Jess... A movement CO done overpoweringly. 120% makes me bend over and scream rape in most matchups. Then we have a COP which... grants movement and some pretty ridiculous firepower for just a star more then Adder getting his universal movement. Since there are literally no maps where I cannot use ground units in some way, Jess will always have a use. Oh, and there's the infinite refuel gimmick if you're into that. With Jess it's more the day to day that brings her all the way to Upper tier.

Kanbei. 120/120 is way too much for a mere infantry. He'll be running around meatshielding like a fudge pro. Also, good luck bringing him off of a city... the COP is enough to break through meats and hold them with 130% defence. the SCOP... okay, okay, that's just a timebomb. 120/120 day to day also rapes 55% matchups. He'd be broken and up there with Colin, Grit, and Hachi if it wasn't for the fact that there is just a tiny bit of a loss in capturing regarding APCs.

Kindle... What's there to say? You can't attack her on a city, and her COP punishes you for what you're supposed to ****ing do. Put your units on cities to defend. Nevermind that Urban Blight spreads on your bases too, and you have funds raped for the turn, and your army cut to 9HP units. WONDERFUL. Nevermind the SCOP is a universal firepower boost that's quite respectable. This is more then enough for uppertierdom.

Eagle- Day to day, he plays like a blandie. But the powers are absolute rape. It's like introducing a tag into single player mode. It's disgusting, and the only justification is that it takes like forever. But with charging being so nice to infantry... Uhm, yeah. Nevermind Lightning Drive can make your opponent meatshield oh so more carefully. And Lightning Strike just flips the range game over and rapes it.

Sasha- Okay, when you can simply shut down any chance of a SCOP, and reduce COP chances, while still having one of the best day to days of the game, you're Upper tier. Especially considering in all of this, that she can literally shut down some matchups and make them unwinnable for the opponent. Upper tier in my eyes at least.

Possible candidates for upper that just didn't make it-

Sensei- It's not *THAT* hard to get through all the bloody inf/mechs on a large enough map, and his D2D is almost bland. It's a really poor reason though, and he probably should be in upper. Oh, his B-Copters are also usable, as counters to tanks, so that helps too. Nevermind +1 Transport movement.

Sami- This also is probably a temporary thing. We don't know how badly the nerf, specifically with transports, has hurt her.

High
Sensei, Sami, Von Bolt, Hawke, Olaf


Sensei- There should be no question that he deserves at least this high. Covered above. Self feeding powers, +1 movement for a rape capture phase, everything you need to be awesome.

Sami- 1.5 capture rate means she can take a hit but still complete the capture. 120% inf means her meatshields are better then yours. Double Time means her mech swarms actually work, and Victory March is... ridiculous. Honestly, I don't know why we don't have Sensei and Sami to Upper, or at least, some shifts need to be made in this tier list somehow.

Von Bolt- Alright, I'm sure plenty of you are what the ****ing here. HE'S BLOODY 110/110. I RAPE 55% AND 95% MATCHUPS BOTH WAYS. He can beat first strike a lot easier with odd matchups, and don't even try attacking him on a city. The only reason he's not upper is because he doesn't get a COP. Otherwise he'd be upper if he even had a below average COP.

Hawke- Okay, 110/100 isn't as ridiculous, but it's still there, especially in 55/95% matchups for you. Plus he actually has, you know, a COP/SCOP. All in all, Hawke is pretty damn good, just the COP lacks some bite, and the SCOP is a long way away.

Olaf- You're bland yeah... But when you can produce 120/100 at will once the game gets going, and have it stay for two turns, nevermind the mass damage you might get... These powers are great, the day to day is not. This brings him to high, at least IMO.

People who possibly deserve high, but haven't gotten there-

Javier- Yes my friends, Javier. You WTF now, but when you have a day to day that stops the best units in the game, and powers that completely nerf them... You have a great CO. Only thing stopping him is universal lack of firepower and such specialization. He can't compare to the sheer power of Vonny, Hawke, or Olaf.

Max- Again mates, Max is close... He has almost the same problems as Javier though, that's why he's kinda ****ed in that way. Half of his units that are used in competition are useless.

Koal- Close, but so map dependent as roads aren't always there.

Middle
Andy, Koal, Max, Jake, Javier


Andy- Andy is middle because of an amazing SCOP, but a bland day to day and a horrible COP. Not much more to say really, other then the SCOP reverses first strikes.

Koal- Koal would be high, except that roads aren't always at critical points. When they are though, Koal is a very nice choice compared to Adder, providing the additional firepower needed to break a choke.

Max- 120% is huge. You devastate 55% matchups with your rapage tanks that sometimes make them go 9-3. The COP breaks chokes, the SCOP OHKOs 55% matchups. Of course, utterly useless indirects in the range game stop him from being top tier.

Javier- Someone who could be so great. Javier is a one trick pony, but that trick is damn ****ing good. Stopping enemy indirects day to day, in COP, and in SCOP... It's overkill yeah, if he had a firepower in his powers, he'd be way higher. He's good for what he does, and it's very useful in the metagame, but the lack of offense does hurt.

Jake- Okay, Jake would be oh so great if we just dropped the COP to two stars. As is, he could almost be low tier, but the day to day helps him a bit. The COP is okay, as is the SCOP. He's just an okay CO. A less specialized weaker Grit.

COs that just didn't cut it for middle tier-

Jugger/Flak- Luck based means they should be middle tier but they aren't because they're luck COs.

Low
Adder, Lash, Jugger, Flak


Jugger/Flak- Average wise they should be middle, but they're luck COs with negatives that will always bite when you don't want them to. Low for this reason.

Adder- Sideslip is sexy. Sidewinder is not. Adder is a one trick pony whose trick is easy to counter.

Lash- Good god Lash lost so much. crumpets day to day compared to COs above her, crumpets powers... I'm not exactly sure what's saving her from bottom, probably the lack of weakness. and 115/130 cities.

Bottom
Drake, Grimm


Drakey, Drakey, Drakey... You wait four stars not to become bland, but what happens is so inferior to other powers. Your sea firepower is the most useless thing in this game, and the lack of air firepower does hurt in comparison. The fuel is so overrated it's not funny. Overall, a very poor CO. Hell, rain even contradicts the ability to continue an attack.

Grimm, if you were 120/90, you'd be great. However, you aren't. Grimm is fine day to day... Until you realize he can't bloody take a COP in 55% matchups. He can't handle firepower, he can't handle movement. He's fine otherwise... But since so many COs stock firepower and movement, he's kinda ****ed.

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Post by GaroNinja » Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:02 am

I still think Grimm belongs in lower tier. He can handle 55% match ups just fine, it's just he absolutely has to get the first strike, or he's boned. COPs just making him boned harder.

The only problem is, he's just countered by Adder and Koal, that's all. And Jess. And probably Eagle, too. And I suppose Andy and Jake. Kanbei, too, yeah. And I guess Max, cause his firepower just becomes so rapage... And all the Luck COs too. That and Kindle, sure. Maybe even countered by... Lash, depending on the terrain...

Okay, maybe you do have a point ._.;

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Post by Tronn_Bonne » Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:22 am

Terragent wrote:Ignoring tags is an instant failure, because practically every game in AWDS is a tag game.


Perhaps I am the exception here but I personally dislike the tag system so almost all of my games are 1v1.

Anyway, I largely agree with the placement of the COs in this tier.
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Post by Xenesis » Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:53 am

Honestly, the 'Hey, it's luck, shoot them down a tier' thing bothers me. All three of the luck COs have great averages, and considering the amount of infantry in play all the time these days, you get more than enough chances to do the damage needed.

Every CO relies on luck to some degree. <_<;

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Post by DTaeKim » Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:56 am

Until people start unbanning these COs in games, we have little idea how they play aside from theories.
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Post by Xenesis » Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:00 am

Well, I've been doing my part. Jugger on AWBW FTW!
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Post by DTaeKim » Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:16 am

Well, Jugger/Flak don't fit my playing style. I dislike negative luck with a passion.

Since people constantly ban Nell thanks to theories, we know very little about her practically. In theory, she COULD wreck havoc with her soldiers ruining the norm. I need to play some games with Nell to solidify my thoughts about her.
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Post by Nobody » Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:58 am

How much does dispersion play into strengthening a CO? While Jugger and Flak can do an insane amount of damage, their average damage for their powers are relatively tame for their cost. For example, Rachel's 3-star COP averages +19.5 damage. Flak and Jugger average +15 for their COP and +25 for their SCOP. Rachel's COP has a relatively superior damage with respect to cost, but her power's potential is far lower.

If Flak/Jugger were simply Nell D2D at +15/0, +30/+0 for their COP, and +50/+0 for their SCOP, they certainly wouldn't be at average.

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Post by Xenesis » Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:29 am

For the most part, they don't stray more than 1 Standard deviation from their average. The upper and lower ends of Flak/Jugger's dispersion is very unlikely all things considered.
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Post by ChewyLSB » Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:10 pm

Uhh... I don't know about you, but whenever I play AWDS with my friends, we almost never use the tag system, unless for some reason, we feel like playing a Dual Screen match.

I don't know, I still think that Nell should be bumped up... I mean, the law of large numbers does kick in...
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Post by Powdered Toast Man » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:40 pm

I think of Nell as a wild card. You never know how much damage she will do. If you attack a Megatank with and Infantry there's a chance that your Infantry will get KO'd or level that thing. She's too random to be broken like Colin and Hachi because you never know what she is going to do. The same goes for Flak and Jugger. That's why I think Colin and Hachi are considered the real broken COs.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by CO_Frosty » Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:15 pm

DTaeKim wrote:Top
Colin, Hachi, Grit

Agreed, Agreed, for some reason I don't think Grit fits on Colin and Hachi's league, I would prefer for him to be on the Upper tier with Nell

Upper
Rachel, Sonja, Jess, Kanbei, Kindle, Eagle, Nell, Sasha

Agreed, With FOW its top, but people would ban her there, so upper is fine, I don't think Jess or Kanbei or Kindle should be on the same league as Sonja and Rachel personally, moving twice for 3 stars is too overpowered, so Agreed, Agreed, Agreed.

[b]High

Sensei, Sami, Von Bolt, Hawke, Olaf

Agreed, Agreed, Agreed, Agreed, Agreed

Middle
Andy, Koal, Max, Jake, Javier

Agreed, Agreed, Agreed, Agreed, Personally I would put Javier as low, since he doesn't have any d2d ability to get towers quickly (making the opponent get the same chance of getting them and even bigger chance if he/she is using Sami, Sensei, Colin or Sasha for example) and the indirect defense isn't enough, since the opponent can always be like me and use little to none indirects, he would need a map with 2 or more towers for him to be kinda effective and the opponent will most of the time get the same number as towers as you, so you need lots of towers so the d2d tower defense and the powers can make a difference and on those maps, Javier is banned.

Low
Adder, Lash, Jugger, Flak

Agreed, Agreed, Jugger and Flak should be on Middle, I have been using them lately and they are been very effective, mainly if play like me always expecting the worse. On equal matchups most of the time the good luck will prevail or the bad luck will not make that difference, with powers the equal matchup will be boosted to a 60% and the high luck has got me many OHKOs and 1, 2 hp units, also you have to consider that with the boosted attack, the enhanced bad luck from powers will make the same damage as the D2D bad luck, but the enhanced good luck will really make a difference.

Bottom
Drake, Grimm

Unfortunately, I have to agree (although I am a Drake fan >.<). Drake isn't the same without the extra movement and extra defense for navy. His transports are just the same as any one else and navy has already enough power...and since navy is mainly transports, he got severely damaged on the AW2->AWDS change...and the Rain change didn't helped at all. Personally I would cut a star from his COP and get back his rain advantage..somehow. I also agree with Grimm, he is a CO centred on OHKOs and first attack...but his abilities doesn't get him a first attack! he needs movement boost at least on the SCOP, even if he has to lose power. Right now he wins if hits first and loses if is hitted first...and since his powers give nothing to him to hit first...he will probably lose against COs like Lash, Adder, Koal, Sami, Jess, Colin, Sasha and Hachi, COs that rush better and get first strikes more easily than Grimm.

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