Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

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SirDurant

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by SirDurant » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:42 pm

100/124? I think that's a typo. It's 100/120.

Also...130/100 vs 100/120 still favors Grimm up to about forests...and plains/roads are the most common terrain types in the game. Granted, Jake screws Grimm over on a plains map, but...

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Terragent » Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:32 pm

Oh wow this is great. Mostly just posting to point out perhaps the best statement to come out of this whole topic:
DTaeKim wrote:Grit probably cannot beat Hachi or Colin either, but that doesn't stop Grit from stomping everyone else. The same goes for Sensei. He might not be able to beat Hachi or Colin or even Grit, but Sensei's powers will allow him to pummel the others.
It really adds some clarity to what the CO rankings are all about. Is your opponent's CO so much better than yours that you don't realistically have a chance of winning? If so, then they really ought to be higher tier than yours.

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Sven

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Sven » Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:58 pm

SirDurant wrote:100/124? I think that's a typo. It's 100/120.

Also...130/100 vs 100/120 still favors Grimm up to about forests...and plains/roads are the most common terrain types in the game. Granted, Jake screws Grimm over on a plains map, but...
are you remembering to factor in extra luck vs grimm and poorer luck vs opponent?

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DTaeKim » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:57 am

In terms of raw statistics, he's right. I think the luck amounts to my stats roughly, barring that glitch that -STL- found.
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Leezard227

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Leezard227 » Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:59 am

4 year Anniversary

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:20 am

This is my take based on actual games over the past week. Each tier can be summed up, actually:

Tier list removed because it has been updated

Sonja is the one I'm least sure about, since DS seems to be more direct-attack oriented.

(EDIT 8/23: Max has moved up greatly. Tested a few more games with the luck COs, and they're just too unreliable. Moving them to low. Playing the luck COs requires an alternate strategy of building about 80% infantry and the rest being md tanks, with maybe 1-3 tanks/recon/arty to secure neutral areas in the beginning. Their SCOPs aren't kind to 55% matchups because of the +40 luck required. Therefore, in order to maximize their potential, their armies should mainly consist of lucky infantry and md tanks, which will OHKO even with a poor luck roll. Also, the main counter to an md tank is artillery or a better tank, both of which get beat up by lucky infantry.

Also, Grit isn't broken. Eagle may actually have a bit of an advantage on him, but Grit will stay at top of high because we need more games.)
Last edited by GipFace on Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DTaeKim » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:50 am

If I had to put Sonja somewhere, I would put her in the middle tier. Time to update the opening post.
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:33 am

More testing has been done. Here's my findings:

Infantry are everything. Infantry are absolute. In a game where ~75% of your units are infantry, it is imperative that your infantry are good. Due to all this MAN love, I've adjusted my tier list and the rationale behind each one:

Tier list removed because it has been updated

That's right! After numerous games with Jess, I've found that she's overrated. I think she's actually worse than Andy because Andy boosts infantry and Jess doesn't. I'd actually pick Drake over Jess now. Who needs walls of text explaining things? If a CO boosts infantry, that CO is good! Herp derp!

It's so simple, you wonder why no one else has realized it before.
Last edited by GipFace on Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:20 am, edited 11 times in total.

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ALAKTORN
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:42 am

wtf Image

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:53 pm

Well my Drake beat MDK's Jess pretty handily. As suspected, Jess' Turbo Gauge (COP) only boosted two tanks because the powers charged too fast, and two days later I would get Typhoon (SCOP) and blast all his INF. INF POWER!!!

But I'll need more games from more people!

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DxDyDzD » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:30 pm

A few questions:
General
By Infantry do you mean Infs and Mechs or just Infs? I find it hard to believe that the tiers are decided by just how powerful a single unit is, especially when that unit deals single-digit damage to a Tank or larger.
Do good Infantry mean high attack or high defense? I assume you mean the latter since Grimm has been in the bottom tier since day one due to his Infs getting easily blown up and his Artillery getting exposed as a consequence.
I am interested in knowing the approximate composition of a typical army. You wrote that Infantry consist 75%, so what exactly makes up the remaining 25%? If possible, give both the numbers produced and budget allocated.
CO Comparisons ("X is strictly better than Y")
Is Infantry dominance really so bad that even 120/100 Artillery cannot save Jess from being at low tier? In comparison, Eagle doesn't boost Infantry at all and is in High tier. How is Eagle's COP so much better than Jess'?
*I thought of direct units and APC rushing, but dismissed both. You'd need like 3 loaded APCs and a dumb opponent to leave one of his bases open for you to grab it.
How can the Luck COs (or at least Nell) be low tier? By your criteria, Nell has good Infantry because they don't have defense drops and can gang up on Tanks during COP (thus cost-effectively beating them). Surely Nell deserves to be in Mid tier or higher? Compare with Drake or Hawke; Drake has bland Infantry, Hawke has 110/100. Their COPs are overpriced and yet they're ranked higher than Nell. Furthermore Drake has bland land units while Nell has a luck boost for land units.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:32 am

By Infantry do you mean Infs and Mechs or just Infs? I find it hard to believe that the tiers are decided by just how powerful a single unit is, especially when that unit deals single-digit damage to a Tank or larger.

Infantry. Let's take this on an abstract level.
1 tank = $7000
1 MAN = $1000

If a MAN attacks a tank, it needs to lose 9-3 in order to have an even loss value of $700. BUT!

MAN: 0.4 x .7 = 0.28
TANK: 1.0 x .1 = 0.10

So the MAN player will charge .33 stars (remember offensive charging is half rate) while the TANK player will charge .24 stars. This is unlike AWBW, where the MAN player would only get the equivalent of .12 stars. Andy can smash by launching a suicide attack with most of his force and then SCOPing out.

FAST CHARGING means LESS VEHICLES, therefore powers which boost vehicles are worse!

Do good Infantry mean high attack or high defense?
DEF is always better than ATK because DEF prevents 2HKOs.

You wrote that Infantry consist 75%, so what exactly makes up the remaining 25%?
Recons, tanks and md tanks. (md tanks see actual play because b-copters suck in this game) Actually, I'm finding that I rarely build artillery in this game due to how fast it is, so Grit might drop even further. Recons are pretty awesome for smashing infantry, and they'll smash arty with extra ATK, so that is Jess' saving grace.

Eagle doesn't boost Infantry at all and is in High tier. How is Eagle's COP so much better than Jess'?
For 7 stars (double Lightning Drive) Eagle:
- builds 6 extra INF given 3 bases
- Hit-and-runs with vehicles twice
- Allows crippled units to be microed to cities
With Eagle you'll never catch one of his vehicles off a city during a power, so the reduced ATK doesn't mean much. For what it does, Sensei's COP (copter command) should be at least 6 stars (Airborne Assault should be 11 or 12). 7 stars for half a copter command but triple move is pretty good. Maybe he's worse than Sami, but he's still up there. Of course, Kindle can punish this, so maybe Kindle should get the nod over Eagle. Hmm...

How can the Luck COs (or at least Nell) be low tier?
It's a double-edged sword. If the composition is mostly INF, then it'll be INF vs INF during the luck CO SCOPs too. I think it's fine where they are. Nell is the most overrated CO in the game because she needs to use a chunk of her extra luck just to match the COs with better firepower.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by JuigiKario » Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:56 am

(Writing a new post. Old one got lost when I screwed up because I got ninja'd. Points such as what Eagle's COP does are already covered--I was actually going to point out the first two of those 3--well, 4--points. I'm picking up the slack.)

Do good Infantry mean high attack or high defense?
DEF. Highest base damage to Infantry before going anywhere into the 20K range units is 105% (AA Tank and MD Tank). Second highest aside from indirects is 75% (Light Tank).

Is Infantry dominance really so bad that even 120/100 Artillery cannot save Jess from being at low tier?
Let's see: Artillery base damage VS Infantry and Mech is 90% and 85% respectively. With 120 ATK, it would be 108% and 102%. Not exactly far into OHK range, and just Plains forces luck damage required, even if it isn't much for Infantry.

Compare with Drake or Hawke; Drake has bland Infantry, Hawke has 110/100. Their COPs are overpriced and yet they're ranked higher than Nell.
COP prices don't matter as much due to the idiocy that is fast defensive charging for Infantry.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that LD is spammable. 3 star END of turn power, what?

- builds 6 extra INF given 3 bases
You should fix this. Eagle can't make infantry move again. You must mean he builds vehicles on the Factories, LDs them off, then builds the infantry.
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:23 am

Eagle can't make infantry move again.
Of course. You build vehicles, then infantry, which means 6 extra units over two turns.

idiocy that is fast defensive charging for Infantry.
That's the problem with you and FHQ. So negative, and neither of you ever want to experiment or try something new. Think of it as a puzzle to figure out. DRAKE = BALLER

-

I beat ALAKTORN's Jess with my Drake. I'm 2-0 with Drake now! Jess used COP first and did some good damage, but Drake SCOPed immediately after and crippled Jess' army. GO INF GO

http://www.justin.tv/gipstream2/b/273726131

Drake is fscking awesome trolololol. All that matters is that you hurt the enemy INF. Olaf would be even more of a bitchslap since he actually gets a power boost. First I made Waylon playable, now I'll make Drake playable, too!

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:17 am

Grit sucks, and is definitely mid tier. My Sami crushed Narts' Grit easily.

http://www.justin.tv/gipstream2/b/273731067

Why does Grit suck?

The game is too fast
It looks like +1 range doesn't deter the infantry horde from smothering Grit. At the time of COP in that game, Grit only had 2 arty up. Narts desperately used Snipe Attack because he needed 110/110 inf more than the 5 range arty. I find that arty are especially weakened in this game because there isn't enough time to set up an appropriate formation. If you build arty early, the opponent will move up and capture more properties than you. By the end of the game, Sami had nearly 7 stars and would invoke SCOP on her turn. In AWBW, she would've only had 3 stars.

He can't harass
80/100 copters, tanks, and recons. So he has to slow-roll his army forward, which means more enemy inf on the field.

Arty cluster is beaten with air
Mass arty can be answered by b-copters, which will force Grit to tech-switch into weak antiair. However, there's an even better solution: in the above game, I banked enough money for a black bomb. The black bomb is best at hitting midrange clusters: clusters of infantry aren't expensive enough, and expensive units are usually scattered. If airports are standard, artillery don't stand a chance. Even in my Jess vs. Drake game, I only built one arty, and it really didn't do much. It was a bad move; a tank would've served me better.

HE DOESN'T BOOST INF... OR COPTERS, OR TANKS, OR RECONS
No inf boost means every CO with an inf boost will have an edge in the inf wars. But not boosting the other three units is a real problem. Who cares if he has a few super artillery? I simply attacked into it and got my meter charged.

Grit is at best low-mid tier, and actually might be low. I'd pick Andy over Grit. Trolololol at everyone who thinks Grit is good. Grit is the new Tabitha lolololol~ (everyone thinks he's broken, but he's actually mediocre)

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by monkymeet » Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:15 pm

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DxDyDzD » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:45 pm

Please verify that I've got everything correct:

How to be a pro at PVP AWDS
1) Build loads of infs
1*) Build some Recons as well.
2) Ram infs at enemy to charge (S)COP
2*) Have Mechs/Tanks nearby to punish AAs
3) Use CO power to win (exactly how depends on which CO you're using)

Rationale

1) Infs have the best money-to-star conversion ratio.
1*) Recons kill Infs and take little damage in return, and have the second-best money-to-star conversion ratio. Also, they can harass capturing Infs.
2) Infs deal single-digit damage to Tank or larger, you need a COP to kill them.
2*) Obviously ramming Infs at AAs is not a good idea (otherwise Grimm would be better since he loses infs so easily).
3) COPs charge fast in AWDS, so abuse this.

Exact explanation on how to use (S)COPs (Mid+ tiers)
If your (S)COP gives you...
More units (Sensei): Ram them at the enemy to charge COP.
More money (Sensei, Hachi, Colin): Stockpile the cash for real attacking units (Mechs, Tanks).
Better defense (Kanbei, Javier): Charge forward and shrug off any attacks.
Inf movement (Sami, Adder, Koal, Andy): Use 3/4 move Mechs as attackers.
Mass damage (Rachel, Hawke, Von Bolt, Olaf, Drake): Use Infs to pick off severely weakened units. Loss of HP also means loss of terrain defense bonus. Smash through meatwalls with Tanks (do meatwalls even exist now that Artillery are less useful?).
Better attack (Kanbei, Colin, Javier, Kindle): OHKO everything in your path. Note that the attack boosts for mid+ tier COs are either really huge, or accompanied by defense boosts.
Double turn (Eagle): Hit some stuff then retreat. Build vehicles, then move them off the bases and build Infs.
Healing (Andy): Charge forward, then heal and charge even further.

Why the low tier COs are low tier
Grit: If the enemy units are far then he can't hit them. If they're near, then his Arts will get attacked since Infantry are always found in packs. Weak directs means that he can't attack effectively and will die from lack of space/properties.
*Grit's Recons can't 2HKO (capturing) Infs on cities even with max luck on both attacks.
Jake, Lash: Too weak.
Sasha: Money boost is the same as Hachi's but powers suck. Spamming COP causes your COP to charge slower while the enemy's COP doesn't change charge rate. SCOP doesn't give back a lot if most matchups are Inf vs Inf.
Grimm: Low DEF opens holes in his position.
Jess, Max, Sonja, Luck COs: Not enough power boost to OHKO stuff, no defense boost.

Now more questions:
Serious
-Arts don't see play now, so is Grimm slightly better than before, but still bad? Losing Infs doesn't seems as bad if you don't have a fragile Artillery hiding behind one.
-Nell, Jess, Max and Grimm all boost vehicles. Compared to:
a) Colin and Kindle, are they worse because their vehicles don't have as much killing power?
b) Javier and Kanbei, are they worse because they don't provide defense boosts?
c) these 4 mid+ tier COs, are they worse solely because they don't boost Infantry?
-Compare Sonja with some bland boost CO like Javier 1T. Both boost their attack during (S)COP and Sonja essentially has a massive defense boost during SCOP due to more Infs and fewer Arts. What causes Sonja to be low tier? No D2D defense boost? 5 stars for +DEF instead of 3?
-Does Von Bolt ever get his SCOP? Can we consider a CO who only has D2D 110/110 units to be high tier?
LOL
-Is Sonja's hidden HP useless? IIRC in AWBW you could look at the log and render it useless.
-Are games involving Javier going to be a pain to setup/regulate? You either need to edit the map to give him a COM tower, or hack Javier's stats, or make it compulsory for every map to have a COM tower somewhere far-off and have an honour system where only Javier is allowed to cap it, and musn't use the Inf for anything else.
-Is PVP even fun to play when it's just "spam infs or lose"? Nothing beats inf spam, so both players are going to use it. There's no rock-paper-scissors, both in units (e.g. Tank-AA-BC in DoR) and strategy (Attack-Block-Throw in fighting games).

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by HPD » Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:58 am

From what I recall, Von Bolt gets his SCOP on day 12 already.
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by ALAKTORN » Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:59 am

DxDyDzD wrote: Sasha: Money boost is the same as Hachi's but powers suck. Spamming COP causes your COP to charge slower while the enemy's COP doesn't change charge
I felt necessary to reply to this, Sasha's money boost is weaker than Hachi's

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:26 pm

Played some more with ALAKTORN and Sven. We've determined the four things that define how powerful a CO is, in this order:

1) Unit count
2) Infantry boost
3) Mass damage
4) Direct vehicle boost

The most important thing in the game is unit count, period. If you have many more units than the opponent, then there's nothing the opponent can do to catch up. This is why Sensei and Hachi are the best. Eagle is up there too... might be better, who knows. Having better DEF means your unit count doesn't drop as much, so Kanbei/Von Bolt/Javier 1T are all good.

The second-most important thing is infantry ATK because infantry make up at least 75% of your army.

The third-most important thing is mass damage. Mass damage makes it easier to destroy units, which of course affects the unit count. As a result, the one unit with splash damage (black bomb) becomes very important, but that'll be covered below.

Next is direct vehicle ATK. Why direct vehicles? Because they make your units mobile and allow timing pushes. Why direct vehicles and not artillery? Unfortunately, artillery doesn't work because of the black bomb. Two black bombs are deadly; it may cost $50K and won't deal as much damage as they're worth, but they'll reduce a chunk of the enemy army to 1HP, thus allowing your other units to mop up. This puts you up in unit count. How do you beat the black bomb? Play to keep the unit count of both sides low. Be aggressive with infantry and direct vehicles, and maybe the occasional b-copter. You want your army to be able to engage the enemy army at a moment's notice. This makes artillery only useful if you bring it up with vehicles in front during a timing push.

So where am I going with all this? Could it be? Reveal the spoiler to find out!
Spoiler: show
GRIT IS THE WORST CO IN THE GAME.
Yes, it's true. The revelation that'll blow everyone away.

With these findings, the new proposed tier list becomes VERY logical. Jess goes back up again, since although she doesn't boost infantry, she does boost direct vehicles.
NEW TIER LIST HO HO HO:

Tier list removed because it has been updated
Last edited by GipFace on Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:46 am, edited 6 times in total.

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DieselPheonix

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DieselPheonix » Sun Nov 14, 2010 4:10 pm

Shock, horror.

What maps have you been using? I presume airports are also greatly preferred in DS as in DoR.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Sun Nov 14, 2010 4:17 pm

Standard AWBW maps with airports.

http://www.justin.tv/gipstream2/b/273829777

This is Sven's Grit vs. my Andy. A summary of how the game played out:

1. Grit captured close properties to get out early artillery at the expense of additional infantry
2. Andy city hopped in response and pressured with multiple recons. Andy got a 2 city advantage due to hopping.
3. The recon harass and subsequent destruction of the recons via Grit's artillery charged both players' meters very fast.
4. Andy SCOPed first to buy time and bank enough money for the black bomb.
5. Grit SCOPed, destroying all of Andy's vehicles.
6. Andy, with the 2 city advantage, built a black bomb and started to bank for a second black bomb.
7. Once the second black bomb came out, Grit resigned because all those artillery could not go in and immediately damage Andy's infantry.

Grit is indeed the worst CO in the game. Grit has none of the four qualities that define a good Dual Strike CO, therefore he is the worst. This game is a shocking revelation of how our metagame has progressed.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Narts » Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:46 pm

It's hardly surprising that the DS metagame is evolving at the result of it being played considering there wasn't any metagame to begin with as no one actually played the game.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by HPD » Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:06 am

What Narts said. The old AWDS tier list, if there ever was a serious one, was more or less a copy of AWBW's, since no one ever decided to check if the metagame might be different in DS, until now.

This metagame doesn't really look like fun though. :(
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DieselPheonix » Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:45 am

Oh yes, because the AW2 metagame was so exciting.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Wumandius » Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:47 am

Excuse me for my retardedness, but how do you play this online? I want in on the fun too!

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by JuigiKario » Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:01 am

Wumandius wrote:Excuse me for my retardedness, but how do you play this online? I want in on the fun too!
One player streams, the other player types in their moves.
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by RockNRoll.Sturm » Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:03 am

JuigiKario wrote:
Wumandius wrote:Excuse me for my retardedness, but how do you play this online? I want in on the fun too!
One player streams, the other player types in their moves.
Adding to that, the url for the stream is http://www.justin.tv/gipstream2/

We usually meet up in the WWN IRC channel to get a game together.
O_O

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:18 am

Tweaked the list. Javier 1T is now below Von Bolt, since Von Bolt with a tower is 120/110. Testing needs to be done to see if Javier's SCOP (140/140) is better than the mass damage of Hawke/Olaf/Drake or not. My guess is no, but we'll see. If not, he'll drop to below Drake.

Olaf vs. Hawke needs to be tested too. I'm thinking Olaf has a shot of being better because of his 2-day winter boost.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DxDyDzD » Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:13 am

If the second most important thing is Infantry attack then Nell and Sonja should be higher up. Their Inf v Inf matchups are almost as good as 110 Att COs. They boost vehicles too so they're about the same, D2D wise, as Hawke. (Both Nell and Sonja score 0.1HP lower than Hawke on some terrain stars but that's negligible, while Sonja is only worse than a blandie when attacking a road Inf.)

More on Inf v Inf, if you consider 2 Inf attacks on an enemy Inf on a property, both Nell and Sonja can 2HKO the enemy Inf after COP.
For Nell you need to roll 10 or below out of 59 on both attacks so it's about 1/36 chance of not KOing, which is very low.
If that property is a base, you can 2HKO the Inf and park another unit on the base to disable it.

Compared to Jess and Max (who don't boost Infs), if they're in Mid tier then Nell and Sonja deserve to be in Mid tier also.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:26 am

Nell
If you actually play on the real game instead of crap like AWBW or Custom Wars, you'll notice that Nell's luck doesn't kick in as much as you'd like it to. We played the hell out of all three luck COs, and Flak feels better D2D because you notice his benefits more than Nell. The COPs are worthless, and the SCOPs are a crapshoot. We do all our playing on the real game, and results have shown that Nell is extremely overrated.

Sonja
Good call about Sonja, but admittedly we haven't played her much. If she invokes SCOP first, that'll delay the use of the enemy's SCOP for one turn unless it's mass damage, which may be enough to win. However, it still doesn't stop recon/tank vs. infantry. She probably belongs further up, maybe higher than Jess. We'll see.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:40 am

(check last page for tier list)
Last edited by GipFace on Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:43 am, edited 24 times in total.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by ALAKTORN » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:59 am

LOL Grit last

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by monkymeet » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:43 am

What about JAVIER3T!?!?!

HUH?!
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:02 am

The world will explode before Javier gets 3T.

...Or if you're playing Megalopolis.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:34 am

Another day, another tweak. Now all the mass damage COs (Kindle/Rachel/Von Bolt/Olaf/Hawke/Drake) are together in order, with Drake being the only one not in high. Testing will be needed to see if the mass damage COs are better than Eagle or not. If you only count each CO's primary benefit, we can look at the tier list order:

2x makes lots of units
3x great stats for cost
1x super capture
1x makes a few more units
6x mass damage
4x recon/tank boost
1x bland + first strike during scop
3x bland + extra mp during scop
3x bland + super luck during scop
4x bland + nothing great happens during scop
1x recon/tank disadvantage (GRIT SUCKS)

The order is now looking very logical instead of a haphazard guessing mess like it was in the beginning. All similar COs are being grouped together as strategies are being streamlined.

What we found was that when you get a mass damage SCOP, you can use it immediately, while firepower boost COs may have to wait until the time is right. Kanbei is a special case because nobody's going to attack into his units, so you can even use Samurai Spirit at end of turn. Sami is also a special case because she can spam mechs a la Will, so she'll have more units to affect.

Sonja needs more testing. She can SCOP a turn before Andy/Koal/Adder and will rarely be attacked during her SCOP. She still has problems with recon vs. infantry, though. Hrm.

Oh, right, here's the Jess (Narts) vs Max (Gip) game:
http://www.justin.tv/narts/b/273982547

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DxDyDzD
Rank: Blue Bomber
Location: War Room

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DxDyDzD » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:50 pm

In comparison to Koal, Adder's SCOP is strictly worse. I believe Adder should spam his COP instead of saving up for a Super.
With Adder, once you have two stars, the enemy is either forced to retreat his infs (making Adder's bland stats inconsequential), or stay in attack range and get pummeled by 110/110 units. Either way, you can move forward and gain space. Koal needs 3 stars to do the same, but your opponent may just decide to force you to use 3 stars for what should be a 2 star COP and win a war of attrition.
Another thing with Adder/Koal is that their Mechs take less time to reach the front lines due to their (S)COPs. Their powers boost every unit they have, even those which can't attack any enemies this turn.

Now, a detailed analysis:
Sonja's Inf v Recon during SCOP ends 4-9 (she loses 200G (+400 for Recon, -600 for Inf) and 0.22 stars (Sonja gains no stars, enemy gains +0.1 for Recon and 0.4*0.6/2= +0.12 for Inf) compared to the opponent).
This holds true almost all the time, since 1) Sonja's SCOP turns the enemy terrain into 0 def, unless the Recon is on a HQ, 2) Inf v Recon base damage is 12 and Sonja has 110 Att during SCOP and 3) Sonja has 110 Def and is taking an attack from a 9HP Recon in this situation.
However, a Mech/Tank should be able to blow up the enemy Recon next turn, giving her +3600G and 0.9/2/1.2= +0.375 stars, while the enemy gains 0.9. So overall, Sonja would gain 0.375 stars, while her opponent would gain 1.12 stars. Sonja would also be ahead by 3400G.
Make what you will of the above, but note that Sonja still has a 4HP Infantry and a Tank. Her opponent has just lost a Recon. Thus, despite taking damage, Sonja is still ahead in unit count. Since unit count is the most important thing in the game (or, the Inf may be useful for joining), I don't see Sonja's Inf v Recon matchup to be a weakness.
On the other hand, if the Infantry was destroyed by a subsequent attack on the enemy's turn, the Tank still gets to kill the Recon, so it's a 1 for 1.

And finally, ranking the COs based on "X beats Y" seems like a bad idea. For instance, Grimm may beat Sonja (LOL Recons), Sonja may beat Adder (SCOP and rush 1 turn earlier), but Adder may beat Grimm (first strike on 80 Def). You probably shouldn't make any distinction between the COs in a particular tier, at least until you are certain that one of them can thrash everyone else in the tier. But that'd probably cause that CO to be pushed into the next highest tier...

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:31 am

I believe Adder should spam his COP instead of saving up for a Super.
The problem with using COPs in this game is that the meter charges so fast. The opponent may have the SCOP available as early as the next turn. That's why Eagle may not be as good as he looks: he may only get one COP in before the opponent invokes SCOP.

Mechs
They're not seen much unless they're coming out of an expo base. They have a slower charge rate than recons.

a detailed analysis
Don't like this theorytarding so I have nothing to say here.

And finally, ranking the COs based on "X beats Y" seems like a bad idea.
Not really. By putting similar COs together, we can then sort them easier based on other strengths. Drake shouldn't be ranked significantly worse than other mass damage COs, because mass damage is still mass damage. Likewise, Andy/Koal/Adder should be grouped together. Sure, Andy mass repairs, but his +1 MP during SCOP is what makes the difference. All the recon/tank boost COs should be grouped together as well, since they have similar strengths and weaknesses based on that primary strategy.

-

http://www.justin.tv/gipstream2/b/274012565

Played an intense Jess (Sven) vs Drake (Gip) last night. I thought it was fairly close, but Sven doesn't seem to think so. He tried a strategy of cutting inf in favor of earlier recon/tank, thus allowing a timing push where all my money was tied up into inf at the back lines. With a bit of refinement I think it's a viable strategy. However, I was able to suicide some inf on day 10 and invoke SCOP, weakening his push severely. Notable chat:

(after Drake suciding inf for SCOP)
[02:25] <Svenn> just gotta say
[02:25] <Svenn> that is probably the dumbest thing i have ever seen

(after resigning)
[02:41] <Svenn> the recon/tank mix is just really uncomfortable
[02:41] <Svenn> getting 7 star MD before 6 star is dumb
[02:46] <Svenn> like i'll believe on that map jess can consistently force grabbing her tower and denying the other tower
[02:46] <Svenn> but the timing when you'd actually get their props from a push coincidentally is
[02:46] <Svenn> just when they get md
[02:46] <Svenn> so -_-
[03:02] <Svenn> i think if i totally cleaned the build order though
[03:02] <Svenn> i could do recon -> tank -> arty -> arty/recon -> tank/recon -> tank/tank (SCOP HERE)
[03:03] <Gippy> I like the timing attack idea though
[03:04] <Gippy> fudge macro, try to overwhelm them so that their scop is less effective
[03:04] <Gippy> You get a 3 day window where their money is tied up by inf at the back of their base
[03:04] <Svenn> again i don't know if 20 differential is enough
[03:05] <Svenn> you have to do damage of some sort
[03:05] <Svenn> lasting damage
[03:13] <Svenn> yeah it's just ugh tricky
[03:13] <Svenn> i'm not sure when the window actually is to attack and abuse that kind of thing
[03:13] <Svenn> it just wasn't done in AWBW

My Drake is now 3-0 against Jess~

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Sven

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Sven » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:02 am

It's not so much that MD COs create strictly winning positions, it's more that it's incredibly difficult to actually force MD COs into losing positions with such ridiculous powers.

I don't know about everyone else, but the concept of playing a long drawn out macro game over post your moves where I have to concentrate for 3+ hours is not my cup of tea. Mistakes end up being made and sometimes optimal plays just don't get performed. We've seen so far that you can't really punch through MD COs and get an overwhelming advantage in the first 10 days of the game. Early battles take their own ridiculous amount of planning so I guess we may see more effective attacks in the future where Jess can actually force something advantageous on the maps we play.

But bluntly, I'm not going to be the player who plays the 20+ day vehicle game. Makes me sick to my stomach, especially over the net. Maybe in person GipFace and I can test a few but that's really up to him.

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:23 am

Sure. We can do that sometime. But remember that even in person we didn't have a single game go past day 12. Then again, we were just playing brokens vs. brokens the whole time. I think with the vehicle midgame and subsequent black bomb lategame after the first SCOP, there's not much of a chance for a long macro game. It's like Starcraft 2 in that regard. It's possible, but both players have to play at an even level for that to happen. Our games average just under 2 hours by the way.

As an aside, only in person can we do accurate Sonja testing. I have a hunch that hidden HP is more of a mindfsck when you don't see Sonja playing out her moves. Only a noob would fall for the capping trick (you can see the # of capture points remaining) but she can still bluff with weak shields and such. She has a pretty good shot to move up.

But yes, GRIT IS THE WORST JAJAJA

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