Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

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Narts

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Narts » Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:13 pm

You'd still test Rachel against Kindle?

Sven lost against my Rachel despite playing better and making fewer mistakes not to mention successfully diverting my missiles. That should ring some bells.

Fact: Kindle sux lol.

Why?

Because Urban Blight virtually doesn't affect infantry and since infantry is king, well, you know

You should test Drake vs Kindle because I'm right

Then you will see and I'll be like, 'told you'

GipFace
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:34 pm

You're on muthafscka

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Sven

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Sven » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:59 am

i misplayed that rachel v kindle game

i overdiverted the missiles with the wrong unit choice, and i was too aggressive with my units knowing that i wouldn't receive reinforcement because of COP

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DTaeKim
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DTaeKim » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:28 pm

GipFace wrote:The AW3 RNG is vastly different than the AWBW RNG or the CW RNG. The only way to reliably rate them, like every other CO, is to test them on actual games of AW3. Also, I have a hunch that Nell might be the worst of the three despite not having any negative luck. Flak/Jugger's +2 will show up more often, while -1 doesn't matter unless you're trying to 2HKO a city unit.
Wouldn't it depend on the DS again. IIRC, your DS appears to be unlucky.
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FormicHiveQueen
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by FormicHiveQueen » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:40 pm

After doing a bit of testing myself, I think I have to agree that Sasha is at least better than Max. In a game against myself, Sasha had two Recons by the time Max had one, and two Tanks a full two days before Max even got his first one. I wasn't playing on a very large map either.

On top of this, I found that using Market Crash to delay a SCOP pretty much made the difference between Max getting an opportunity to even the odds and getting bogged down even further. (There was no way his one Tank and a couple Recons were going to do anything meaningful with his COP.) The game was pretty much downhill from there.

I haven't tried Jess and Sonja, but I seriously doubt they'd do much better against that teching-up advantage.

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RockNRoll.Sturm
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by RockNRoll.Sturm » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:49 am

FormicHiveQueen wrote:After doing a bit of testing myself, I think I have to agree that Sasha is at least better than Max. In a game against myself, Sasha had two Recons by the time Max had one, and two Tanks a full two days before Max even got his first one. I wasn't playing on a very large map either.

On top of this, I found that using Market Crash to delay a SCOP pretty much made the difference between Max getting an opportunity to even the odds and getting bogged down even further. (There was no way his one Tank and a couple Recons were going to do anything meaningful with his COP.) The game was pretty much downhill from there.

I haven't tried Jess and Sonja, but I seriously doubt they'd do much better against that teching-up advantage.
Hmmmm... if you could provide a replay of how this panned out, I think that would be great. Otherwise, I am curious as to how you saved your money for MC and how you were ordering units as Max.

The problem with playing against yourself is that, even subconsciously, you are going to be playing with a particular style with both COs, which may be more beneficial to one over the other (and trying to consciously apply differing styles to both COs may not emulate a proper game either, as sometimes a player needs to change up strategies). Also, feints, risky maneuvers, or attempts to think ahead become impossible because... both players are using the exact same knowledge!
O_O

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FormicHiveQueen
Location: Washington State, USA

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by FormicHiveQueen » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:00 am

I pretty much gave you as close to a play-by-play as you're ever gonna get out of me, although I have refined the playthrough a bit. (Max fell behind in Recon production because I did something dumb in that first game.) However my use of Market Crash did not involve saving up any money. I just waited until Max's power meter was full and fired it off after attacking but before buying. Max's options were to either sacrifice Infantry to crumpets his way into a full meter, or use his COP. Neither option leaves him in a favorable position after all is said and done. I've also tried favoring his COP, but he still doesn't get it before Sasha starts rolling out Tanks, and when he does use it Sasha charges her SCOP faster. When she fires that off she can get enough money to maintain her lead.

I've done this matchup with Jess and Sonja now, and the results are similarly bad for them, though not necessarily for similar reasons. The problem with Sasha is that after she starts moving up in property count her extra funds really start adding up. I would go as far as saying that it's not so much that Sasha can get a Tank a day earlier than other COs. What's really winning the game for her is that this Tank is the beginning of a production line. If it was just a funding snowball that bought that odd Tank then it wouldn't matter as much; a COP could still beat that. The problem is that this snowball comes when she's already on the threshold of securing $7k+ income, thus allowing her to follow up on that Tank the very next turn. I'll let you fill in the blanks from there.



As for playing against myself, it's possible to train yourself to disengage your brain from one team when you play the other's turn. Though as you said, it isn't quite perfect in terms of messing with the opponent's head. (And it does make any testing on Sonja less conclusive than it might be, but I don't try things with her very often anyway. Plus you'd be surprised how quickly I forget exactly which unit had how much HP once I'm not able to see it...) On the other hand, having perfect knowledge of the other side's strategy does leave less things up to chance, and I can usually catch my mistakes after the third playthrough.

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Sven

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Sven » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:10 am

you don't know how to open properly as max if you're losing tempo

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FormicHiveQueen
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by FormicHiveQueen » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:22 am

Sven wrote:you don't know how to open properly as max if you're losing tempo
Uh huh, how long ago was I saying something similar about Grit? You guys don't appear to have done a game with Sasha yet, so until then I'm the only one here who can claim to not be theorytarding. Just saying. :lol:

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Messenger Of Dreams2 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:46 am

I know! Goddamn theorytards! Thank god I'm not one!

Oh wait...

Goddamn my life.
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Sven

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Sven » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:17 pm

first 10 days is the same as AWBW no tarding required

you don't see retarded advantages with sasha until day 10+

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FormicHiveQueen
Location: Washington State, USA

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by FormicHiveQueen » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:07 pm

Sven wrote:first 10 days is the same as AWBW no tarding required
Except for the part where you realize isn't AWBW. Sasha can get a Tank out earlier than everyone bar Colin and Hachi, as well as play havoc with the timing of the Recon COs' SCOPs. I have run too many tests with varying strategies for this to be a fluke of luck. Sasha gets the early Tank, charges up the enemy meter, and then smacks it down just enough to where the Recon COs need to pull some Infantry crumpets in order to counter the early Tank with a SCOP. And not to mention that Sasha has already built a second Tank by then. In other words, she forces you to expend resources getting rid of an extra Tank, thereby weakening your own positioning since that Tank was only an extra. Sasha still has par+ funding, your units are weakened from performing SCOP-charging stunt, and your position is just bad all around.

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Sven

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Sven » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:01 pm

first ten days is precisely the same as AWBW dude

do you somehow think AWBW sasha plays without her +100 bonus? it's incredibly difficult to get a net two vehicle advantage up by the time the opponent can throw a power up even with old charging.

you completely blow her advantages out of proportion and show a fundamental lack of understanding of the first 8 days of the game.

this "LOL I GOT A TANK FIRST AND GOT TO HIT HIS" crumpets is the type of crap you'd never see if you faced an actual human opponent.

i'll play a bloody post your moves over fudge forum if you're that scared of a stream, you can play it on your own DS and not bother posting pics of it, there's not much more convenient i can make it for you to actually play the game.

i would like nothing more than for you to actually play the game with other people and realize that testing with yourself is absolutely ridiculous for anything but the most basic of conclusions.

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HPD
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by HPD » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:46 am

Be nice, Sven.
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Messenger Of Dreams2
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Messenger Of Dreams2 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:01 am

Eh, don't bother. No helping trolls. 8)
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FormicHiveQueen
Location: Washington State, USA

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by FormicHiveQueen » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:22 am

Sven wrote:first ten days is precisely the same as AWBW dude

do you somehow think AWBW sasha plays without her +100 bonus? it's incredibly difficult to get a net two vehicle advantage up by the time the opponent can throw a power up even with old charging.

you completely blow her advantages out of proportion and show a fundamental lack of understanding of the first 8 days of the game.

this "LOL I GOT A TANK FIRST AND GOT TO HIT HIS" crumpets is the type of crap you'd never see if you faced an actual human opponent.

i'll play a bloody post your moves over fudge forum if you're that scared of a stream, you can play it on your own DS and not bother posting pics of it, there's not much more convenient i can make it for you to actually play the game.

i would like nothing more than for you to actually play the game with other people and realize that testing with yourself is absolutely ridiculous for anything but the most basic of conclusions.
Sven, leaving aside the fact that I genuinely don't enjoy streamed games, if you can't understand why I wouldn't want to play you in particular then maybe you should quit beating off to your own words and look at how you treat me. If you gave me the same kind of garbage about any other game and then challenged me to play it, my answer would still be "fudge off." For comparison, if GipFace came in here and told me I was doing something wrong I'd play him in an instant. It's not that I'm "scared of streaming", though as I said I don't particularly enjoy it. I just lack even the most basic respect for you and your opinions. :mrgreen:

Now, if you can't be bothered to explain to me exactly what it is about the first 8 days that I'm just not grasping, perhaps it's time for you to shut up and step aside for someone who will explain. (I would like to point out that I am still the only person in the argument at this point who is citing actual gameplay with Sasha.)

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Sven

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Sven » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:08 am

you aren't citing actual gameplay

you're citing a poor excuse for actual gameplay

shoe-sama

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by shoe-sama » Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:40 am

so you get 1 free pot shot with your tank from getting it 1 day early and force your opponent to defend to prevent more pot shots
and only on some maps
ok

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deemo
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by deemo » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:01 pm

FormicHiveQueen wrote: As for playing against myself, it's possible to train yourself to disengage your brain from one team when you play the other's turn. Though as you said, it isn't quite perfect in terms of messing with the opponent's head. (And it does make any testing on Sonja less conclusive than it might be, but I don't try things with her very often anyway. Plus you'd be surprised how quickly I forget exactly which unit had how much HP once I'm not able to see it...) On the other hand, having perfect knowledge of the other side's strategy does leave less things up to chance, and I can usually catch my mistakes after the third playthrough.

no, it is not possible to do that. you still have subconscious knowledge


tell you what bro. why don't you and me play? you indeed are doing something wrong, and i will show you what through a game!

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Sven

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Sven » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:29 pm

he wants commander wars

lol buggy pos


PKNintendo

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by PKNintendo » Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:15 pm

Nell
If you actually play on the real game instead of crap like AWBW or Custom Wars, you'll notice that Nell's luck doesn't kick in as much as you'd like it to. We played the hell out of all three luck COs, and Flak feels better D2D because you notice his benefits more than Nell. The COPs are worthless, and the SCOPs are a crapshoot. We do all our playing on the real game, and results have shown that Nell is extremely overrated.
Yes it took us years to actually "play" Nell. (I just assumed cheap lololol) but I don't think she should be lumped alongside Flak and Jugger. Her D2D is typically superior and her SCOP is ridiculously good. It plays like a superpowered Max Blast. Sure it doesn't kick in all of the time, but it affects all units and its ridiculous. I'm sure you've heard this many times, but her infantry can OHKO Neotanks after a SCOP. Its risky and sometimes stupid to do this, but it could be useful in desperate situations. I think she should be Mid tier, above the 3 movement CO's.

IIRC Flak/Jugger have different luck mechanics regarding their SCOP's. (Like jugger can't perform Neotank OHKOes like Nell despite being 5% weaker)

I also wanted to make a case for Jake, but Jake really does suck.... Damnit

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:25 am

DS is just too fast for the luck COs. You have SCOPs being used as early as day 8-10 depending on the map size. Around this time each side will have about 20 or so units, and maybe half of them can actually battle. This gives the advantage to COs who don't need many units for their powers to be effective, such as the mass damage COs. Yes yes, Nell's infantry can OHKO big bad tanks, but does this actually ever happen?

- The mass damage COs can suicide, then invoke SCOP, thus injuring all enemy infantry and dampening the enemy SCOP
- Sonja will just invoke Counter Break first and LAUGH.
- The vehicle COs can suicide some inf, then invoke SCOP and cripple units with the attack boost
- The +MP COs will invoke SCOP before the luck COs and injure all the enemy infantry

The luck COs cannot suicide for their SCOP because they need all their units to be fresh. The best way to go at it is to mass infantry then bank the rest for md tanks (so that your HP losses are concentrated on few units), but you give up too much space by doing so. If your production is regular and not skewed towards infantry... then why the hell aren't you using a +MP or a vehicle CO? Also, neotanks don't see play unless a player needs to hard counter an md tank.

And yeah, I'm still going to stand by my claim that Flak/Jugger's occasional +2 will help out more than Nell's +1.

PKNintendo

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by PKNintendo » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:46 pm

I see. What a shocker lmao, Nell a character is was clearly intended to overshadow Flak/Jugger is actually inferior... Hm

GipFace
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:48 am

I'm putting Rachel over Kindle because with the trend of maps <=400 tiles, Rachel is going to smash with her SCOP every time. It arrives too fast for any black bomb baiting.

As always, the updated tier lists are at http://nnl1.com/aw

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DTaeKim
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DTaeKim » Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:27 am

You're still playing DS? I'm astonished.
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metroid composite

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by metroid composite » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:18 pm

Oooh, this new tier list seems much, much, much closer to my actual experience playing AWDS than past ones that were based on AWBW. (I remember when people were putting Drake bottom tier, and I was yelling at them on GameFAQs).

The oddities that stand out to me:

Broken tier Kanbei
In Gipface's testing report above, he noted that Kanbei had a "too close to call" match with Sami, who is in high tier. And...just in my experience, Kanbei struggles with mass damage COs. Yes, Kanbei has a super that stops you from attacking him, and it's hard to deal with a Kanbei unit on a city or a mountain...except that mass damage COs totally bypass all this silly defence stuff. So...given that the Sami match was too close to call, it seems to me that damn near everyone in high tier has good tools against Kanbei.

(Possibly excepting Eagle; I haven't used Eagle much, and when I did I didn't think to get extra units via his COP; that definitely adjusts my opinions of him upwards a lot).

On the other hand, do you really think Kanbei beats...ANYONE in broken tier? 2T Javier vs 2T Kanbei is extremely Javier-favoured--Javier's SCOP is basically better than Kanbei's now (170/170 at 6 stars vs 180/160 at 7 stars), and I'd certainly argue Javier's D2D is too (140/120 vs 120/120, but with a big price markup). Past that...the big selling point of Kanbei to me is that he can out-infantry...basically everyone. But that doesn't apply to Sensei/Hachi, so he can't even touch those two in broken. As for Colin...the thing about Colin is that anyone who can't apply massive pressure to him very fast will allow him to start exponential compound interest. Kanbei just does not seem like the right CO to pressure--if anything it would be the other way around, with Colin getting Recons and Tanks early on that Kanbei can't deal with, and getting a big capture advantage. If there's a "weaker" CO I've used to beat Colin in AWDS, it's Rachel, not Kanbei.

Low Tier Sasha
Ok, it's kind-of weird to list Colin as a Super Stat CO...and then stick Sasha in bottom tier. Yes, Colin has better stats than Sasha, but not that much better. Being a money CO still gives you essentially ridiculous stats. 11 Sasha Tanks on plains have a roughly even match with 10 Max/Jess Tanks on plains. (And just as an irrelevant tangent, 12 Max/Jess Tanks on plains have a roughly even match with 10 Kanbei Tanks on plains. Obviously Kanbei stomps Max/Jess, but not because his Tanks are better for the cost--they're actually roughly equivalent for the cost).

Except the way AWDS games usually go in my experience is that infantry are so good that you should be buying something from every factory every turn, and when you have money to afford them you get recons/tanks/whatever rather than infantry. So...let's say at the start of a match you have two factories and an HQ. Your income is 3000 (3300 with Sasha), but your daily expenditures are 2000, so your save-up money each turn is 1000 (or 1300 with Sasha). If you produce 2x infantry until you can afford 1x infantry 1x recon, and then start saving money again, then Sasha will end up with 30% more Recons. Obviously the numbers change a little as you get more properties (not 30% extra anymore), but you get the idea.

Just...feels like Sasha should be lumped in with the vehicle specialists. I don't -think- she should be any higher than that (I've played her against mass damage COs, and delayed them for a pretty long time, like turn 15 before they super, but them supering is basically a game loss for her. Then again, I've typically played land maps where everyone can infantry and artillery spam guaranteeing stall survival. It's possible Sasha can vehicle blitz where Jess could not just because she can buy those ~4 extra turns against Olaf).

Mid Tier Grimm
So...hats off to Grimm's Recons: they deal SO much damage that attacking an infantry on a city is like a normal CO attacking an infantry on a plains. Except...wait, ENEMY recons can also deal as much damage to Grimm's city infantry as a normal CO would deal to an infantry on plains. So he literally doesn't have an advantage over anyone in terms of recon harass (except Grit).

I mean, yes, he has a slight advantage over 100/100 on plains/roads, but it's about 4%, which on-paper puts his D2D almost perfectly matched up with Nell/Jugger/Flak/Lash in a 55-55 matchup (not sure how the AWDS luck being weird on the actual cart might factor into this). Hey look: that's a collection of low-tier COs! In a matchup against Jugger/Flak their CO powers are about an equivalent boost in a 55-55 matchup too. And then there's another low-tier CO, Jake, who has arguably a D2D advantage over Grimm because plains are so common (especially in infantry fights) and about equivalent power boost in Super once you factor in Grimm's defences (even if it's terrain limited...but then again, Jake's super also gives a vehicle move bonus).

I mean, seems like Grimm doesn't really have an advantaged matchup against anyone in low (barring the indirect specialists like 0T Javier, and Grit. Maybe Lash too).

In mid...Sonja across the board stomps Grimm; she's advantaged D2D and has the better Super. Javier 1T also stomps him for similar reasons (destroys D2D, 140/140 SCOP is pretty brutal). He has some advantages over the move+ COs (better D2D notably) but he loses first strike, which probably kills him. So...maybe he beats Jess/Max because his infantry have a D2D advantage, and get boosted during COPs while theirs don't? Except the idea with these COs is that a Recon attack lowers capturing infantry to 4 HP (3 turn capture). A Jess/Max Recon against a capturing Grimm infantry lowers it to 3 HP or 2 HP depending on luck (4-5 turn capture), not to mention how badly he loses vehicle fights. Oh, and good luck meatshielding--Max/Jess Tanks OHKO Grimm's infantry on plains and roads (whereas they can meatshield against Grimm on plains and sometimes roads depending on luck roll). And that's everyone in mid, and none of those sound like favourable matches.

So...that leaves Grimm with what to me sound like zero favourable-sounding matches in mid, and several even-sounding matches in low.

Maaaaybe High Tier Eagle
I'll need to go back and play him now that I know he can get extra units. The times I've played him before I've been underwhelmed, though. It just felt like "ok, I have 20 units, but 16 of them are infantry, so this CO power doesn't actually do much." This combined with essentially bland D2D left me pretty unimpressed. But being a unit CO might well justify this tier position.

I'd want to test him against...lemme think...Sonja, I guess? She has a D2D advantage, and her SCOP has a similar concept (attack for free without being at risk next turn) except it works on her infantry too. Actually, I guess 1T Javier also fits that description (he's 140/140 during SCOP--not something you want to attack).

But...yeah, certainly need to playtest Eagle a bunch before I feel confident commenting.

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Sven

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Sven » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:41 pm

we might just be having huge style differences

those slow ass AWBW maps with 2 props + HQ with one inf as an FTA counter mean you can actually force a power before day 11ish. just pumping out two recons somewhere between turns 5-7 and just ramming them into the opponents face and trading them at loss. it actually sounds straight up impossible to actually stall a first power past day 10ish without 'consent' from both players. if someone wants it earlier, they can force it to happen.

recons have the wonderful side effect of making it fairly difficult to setup some weird arty/inf wall, but of course that depends on map.

the reason we love colin so but hate sasha is that colin still gets his primary draw of 5 md tanks or whatever to win a game and that it doesn't matter what the game state looks like at that point, but sasha is bland until turn 7 or so until you can get a relevant leg up by converting an inf into a tank or whatever. even then it's questionable, the play might just be trying to convert the extra $$$ into a copter. market crash is very meh, you stop a SCOP just to get stomped by some CO's COP or face a SCOP the turn after. fantastic. -_-.

sasha really doesn't want to be playing the recon game and maximizing the charge on the field. you can't effectively delay the power and it just looks silly trying to play 110/110 vs enemy SCOPs.

kanbei's 120/120 with 120% costs roflstomps all over days 1-8 which is really all you need to be in an okay position for the SCOP, which just flat out wins the game on the spot. double turns tend to do that.

tldr: 40 stats over bland stomps over MD in our experience. the vs colin match is a joke with two colin units lost for every kanbei unit lost. 3 bases doesn't really allow you to ever make "more" units, and more bases on a map is time prohibitive.

i have no fudge clue what's going on with that grimm crumpets sorry.

metroid composite

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by metroid composite » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:02 am

Sven wrote:just pumping out two recons somewhere between turns 5-7 and just ramming them into the opponents face and trading them at loss. it actually sounds straight up impossible to actually stall a first power past day 10ish without 'consent' from both players. if someone wants it earlier, they can force it to happen.
I assume we're talking about Sasha here (because nobody else has a hope of stalling powers, no) and...she can typically remove about 1.5-2 stars by activating her COP from what I remember of playing her. So...that partially counteracts recon suicide; the opponent would need to recon suicide more than once to force an early super, and if they don't recon suicide, they're getting a later than usual super.

But...yeah, I don't think she's high-tier. I think she -might- -maybe- be able to fight Olaf, but the rest of them.... Von-Bolt out D2Ds her. Sami arguably out D2Ds her just due to infantry stats and is extremely likely to get a capture advantage through either her D2D or SCOP. Kindle's COP is 3 stars, which is basically impossible for Sasha to stop. Drake can just use his COP too. Rachell...well...Sasha has a better shot than most at getting a black bomb out before Rachel's SCOP. Rachel's SCOP terrifies me, though. (I've played Rachel vs Sasha, and it feels like delaying is not enough--if Rachel SCOPs, ever, you lose. This was on a non-airport small map, granted).
market crash is very meh, you stop a SCOP just to get stomped by some CO's COP or face a SCOP the turn after. fantastic. -_-.
Well yes: I agree she's not beating people with fantastic COPs like Kindle. But...seriously, as-is she's a tier below people with pretty mediocre COPs.

Not to mention, one of the big selling points of Max/Jess seems to be that recon attacks lower capturing infantry on cities to 4 HP, causing a one-time 1000 money loss for the enemy. Sasha, just by virtue of being Sasha, gains a one-time 1000+ money advantage before either army can reach each other. No risky potentially screwing up your own capturing ability by going for an early Recon over more infantry. Just 100% of the time, free money.
kanbei's 120/120 with 120% costs roflstomps all over days 1-8 which is really all you need to be in an okay position for the SCOP, which just flat out wins the game on the spot. double turns tend to do that.

tldr: 40 stats over bland stomps over MD in our experience.
The MDs aren't all bland, though. I don't think I'd want to fight Kanbei with like...Drake. But, say, Von-Bolt? Sure. His D2D is reasonably competitive with Kanbei's, and his super is also quite capable of causing double turns in addition to being mass damage. In theory it's baitable by Black Bombs, but Kanbei is literally the worst CO in the game for using Black Bombs.
the vs colin match is a joke with two colin units lost for every kanbei unit lost.
I assume you're exaggerating; that or not actually using in-game data. Even if both COs produced nothing but infantry, this wouldn't actually be true. (It'd be more like a 3:2 ratio). But then there's the whole Colin Tanks cost about what a Kanbei Recon costs. Kanbei tanks cost more than a Colin copter. Kanbei's Md Tank costs more than a Colin Bomber.
3 bases doesn't really allow you to ever make "more" units, and more bases on a map is time prohibitive.
...Uhh...except airports are standard for this tier list. Kanbei can't afford to build B-copters every turn, or even on a semi-regular basis; Colin can. And he probably wants to too (otherwise he won't really have a good answer to Mech spam). So...4-3 unit production a lot of the time. (To say nothing of how Black Bombs are the most hilariously Colin-favoured unit ever. He can basically COP and get a black bomb any time he wants, making him a mass damage CO).
i have no fudge clue what's going on with that grimm crumpets sorry.
TL;DR: Jess and Max are legitimately vehicle specialists. They get an advantage during the capture phase from better vehicles.

Grimm is not. Anything Grimm's vehicles can do to blandie, blandie's vehicles can generally do back to Grimm. His vehicles' stats do NOT give him a real advantage over bland. His CO powers are an OK firepower boost, not actually all that large relative to his defence, but the same could be said of several low-tier COs, and Grimm has a pretty clear disadvantage against several of the mid-tier COs that have stronger tricks than "just a firepower bonus during SCOP". He just seems more at-home next to the low tier.

ungulateman

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by ungulateman » Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:37 pm

I may be overthinking this, but Sasha's D2D is nearly identical to Hachi's, which says a lot about her economic power.

Obviously without mass unit production it's nowhere near as important, but it's worth pointing out that you need the same number of props for a Hachi unit as a Sasha unit, they repair for nearly the same functional cost, and her COP is good enough that you'll never feel the need to use her SCOP anyway.

Not recommending broken tier or anything, just food for thought.

Kilian18
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Kilian18 » Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:58 pm

I think that you've got a point here...Sashas D2D is really good and She'll be able to build more Vehicles than the enemy. For her Powers, I'm not quite sure about it but Market Crash has the Potential to delay the Powers which makes the Battle more focusing on the D2D abilities. Of Course the Powers in AWDS charge extremely fast, but thats also an advantage for Sasha, since she'll allways use her Power in the end of her turn. If the Battle is very agressive, her Power bar will be filled almost every day after the battles start. Other COs have to use their Power at the beginning of their Turns to get the Maximum Effect (besides Eagle, Hachi, Colin, Sensei and the MD-COs(but they're High/Broken tier anyway)), but when fighting Sasha, It'll almost never be ready at the beginning of the turn, so the have to use it in the middle of their turn or recharge the bar and hope for Sasha not to have Market Crash ready next turn. War Bonds is on the other hand extremely useless in a game where 75% of the army is Infantry, so You'll end up with about 5k for breaking through the meatshield and blasting a tank behind it, so it's not worth the 6 Stars in this Setup. Of Course this is all just theory but I think it may be enough for her to move up to Balanced Tier, and If not, she's still the best of the Low Tier. And when I take a look at the actual Tier List She'll at least be able to put up a decent fight with anyone in the Balanced Tier, while she's really better than anyone in Low tier...I've got to test that.

ungulateman

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by ungulateman » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:41 am

Warning, complete theorycraft on my behalf.

vs Sonja is complex; hiding HP intel is useless because you can just keep track of values, and the stronger economy means an extra vehicle by turn 7-8; however, heavy terrain maps favour Sonja a lot thanks to basically making her 110/100 D2D. That's something fairly map-to-map, which suggests Sasha should be on the same level.

Adder and Koal's bars charge too fast for Market Crash to be useful. Koal's offense boost probably gives him the advantage, but she's fairly even with Adder.

Andy's bar is longer and more vulnerable to Market Crash, and he can't compensate by relying on his COP because Hyper Repair is junk. Probably even, if the Sasha player times Market Crashes well it's tilted to them.

Javier 1T walks over her, though, thanks to 110/110 D2D, barring using that extra vehicle very effectively. Same with Jess and Max, although without defense boosts they're somewhat less threatening and the extra vehicle is more useful. Grimm is where the strong economy turns it around, as having another full-health Tank to exploit his 80% defence is huge. Again, you can basically force him to use his COP or his SCOP very ineffectively, which leaves him more vulnerable. Being able to pump out 110/110 using Market Crash every 2-3 turns helps as well.

To top it off she's clearly in a different league from the other Low tier characters. Actual testing to come...

Kilian18
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Kilian18 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:33 am

I did some testing, too. Sasha gave everyone in Balanced Tier a good fight. The extra funds helps a lot and if timed well, her power disables nearly every Super with 6 Stars or higher, so Cos who have a crappy power but a good super (like Andy) have a really hard time against her, and Sasha just wins by Funds Advantage since she has also an easier time to bank for 1 or 2 Black Bombs to solve a stalemate. Grimm is her best matchup in Balanced tier, but I really think, that Grimm is Low tier because everyone with a FirePowerboost of at least 10% deals more damage to Grimm than Grimm deals to his enemy, also everyone having a movement boost will also Kick him away, so basically everyone in Balanced tier owns Grimm, while also everyone in Low (besides Javier) has a really good chance against Grimm. What I want to say: Exchange the Positions of Grimm and Sasha.

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:29 am

Kilian18 wrote:I did some testing, too.
Who did you play? Yourself? The AI? Neither of those counts as real testing.

Kilian18
Location: Bavaria, Germany
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Kilian18 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:32 am

AI? If I let AI play against each other, Hawke would be the best CO, and If I play against the AI, I'd win anyway. I did some testing with my little brother and some with myself. My brother doesn't play as good as me but there's only a slight difference in skill. I know, that the tier lists are made for even skilled players, but I really think, that Sasha doesn't fit into Low tier, even if it really wasn't "real testing" it should be rethought

Anonymous guy

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Anonymous guy » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:14 pm

A reason why there should be a replay option. Just to hunt for any mistakes. :gesalute:

By the way, Koal's daily offense boost on Roads is only 10%. And Max and Jess don't boost infantry daily. :ph43r:

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:26 pm

It's been established that a CO's D2D isn't as important as the power. (Drake's operating at worse-than-Andy D2D but his mass damage saves him) Sasha's D2D bonus is going to give her an extra vehicle on some funny day, as Sven said earlier. This is largely irrelevant because we haven't been able to get Market Crash to work all too well. You see, Sasha is best suited to use COP at the end of her day, not the beginning. Why? Because any attacks she does after COP will charge the enemy's bar. Also, by waiting until the end of the day, she gets additional overcharge for the next power. So she won't actually see the 110/110 too much in practice.

By the way, it's pretty easy for the mass damage COs to suicide infantry on tanks and get and extra 2* to invoke SCOP. Bonus points if the CO simply suicides a b-copter into an antiair. (This is one reason why Drake will build a b-copter.) What's Sasha gonna do about that?

As for Grimm, his SCOP gives him 190A infantry.

Come to #wwn and maybe I can give you a game over the week.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by 89305092R » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:32 pm

Just because you use a power at the end of the day doesn't mean that the 110/110 stats can't make a noticeable difference, especially if you want to reinforce a defence or try to hold the ground you've gained. Attacking a unit on a city with these stats won't end well for any bland COs, so it can be used in conjunction with terrain to deter enemy attacks. So while you won't really see the stats, their presence can still be seen (if that makes any sense).

Of course, this is a bit harder to make good use of than simply using the stats to give you an edge, and in the case of Sasha, when you're trying to balance actually getting something out of this with the best time to activate Market Crash, it makes the power fairly unwieldy if you want to use it to its fullest potential. Accordingly, I'm inclined to think of Sasha as a low tier CO, given that her super is pathetic and her D2D is difficult to gain any strong advantage out of.
When adventure knocks, answer the door.
When war comes calling, hit the floor.

Kilian18
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Kilian18 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:04 am

Of course, the MD COs have the advantage, to use their (S)COP in the middle/end of their turn while still being awesome with it (but thats why they're in High tier), but COs like Max or Jess (and anyone in Balanced Tier besides Sonja) will want their Powers in the beginning, and that's what they won't get that often while fighting Sasha. It's also very Map-dependent with Sasha: If you're playing on Maps that have about 10 Propeties for each Player, her advantage is not that great (1000 extra funds and about 20-25% enemy Powerbar-crash, while a 25 Properties/Player map will give her a 2500 funds advantage and a 50-60% Powerbar-crash. On bigger maps, the battles will of course be with more/bigger Vehicles, which means, that the Power bars will also charge faster, which also means, that Market Crash will be charged every day, so the enemy will never have a full meter at the beginning of his turn, while he has to fight Sasha on 110/110 stats. My testings were done on a 16Properties/Player Map. I don't know on what maps you guys are playing on but if you tell me, I might retest it on different Maps.

Anonymous guy

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Anonymous guy » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:07 am

Ah right. That does bring up how Max and Jess can have their infantry before trying for their (S)COP, since those don't benefit from their (S)COPs to begin with, and infantry aren't mobile compared to tanks so they're unlikely to have many targets to choose between. :arrr:

Also, you want to watch the property count so as to avoid Black Bomb-related problems. :ph43r:

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