Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Talk about Advance Wars DS. Debate, laugh, cry, argue about everything to do with our favourite tag game here.
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kiwi

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by kiwi » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:02 pm

SVENFACE HANGING OUT PUNCHING BAD GUYS

and so are you guys in the same area or no

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:25 pm

Uhh yeah. We've played AW in person twice before.

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:25 pm

We've split Sonja into no visuals and visuals. This is purely speculative since we plan on playing it later.

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Kireato

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Kireato » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:52 am

over post your moves where I have to concentrate for 3+ hours
You played it in a single session? For what's essentially send move by email?
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"I can't help myself sometimes... :cry:" -Help Topic Guest

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Narts
Rank: jätkä on blade runner

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Narts » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:58 am

Actually yeah

why not save game and resume later if you think it's taking too long for one session

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:16 am

To be fair our games have taken around 2 hours, not 3. In person we could finish a game in maybe 30-45 minutes, so it's about 3-4X slower. If Sven thinks it's too slow we can reverse the roles (I call out moves and he controls)

Still faster than AWBW, though.

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DieselPheonix

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DieselPheonix » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:52 am

Of course.

Could you elaborate on unit choices? What brought the black bomb to your attention?

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Narts
Rank: jätkä on blade runner

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Narts » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:11 am

it's a fudge nuke biatch

what about it doesn't call for attention?

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DxDyDzD
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DxDyDzD » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:37 pm

The Black Bomb allows you to overcome the problem of unit positioning. With the Black Bomb, three major advantages are granted:
1) No counter damage. Suppose you have 2 Infantry vs 2 Infantry. If you don't have a BBomb, you can take down only one of them. With a BBomb, you can kill both Infantry while keeping yours at 10HP.
2) OHKOs. Suppose you need 2 Infantry to take out an enemy Infantry, but the enemy Inf is surrounded from 3 sides by other enemy units (a positioning problem). Without a Black Bomb, you cannot kill it. With a BBomb, you can do so, and hurt the adjacent units as well. Then the rest of your army can pour through the gap, killing the other weakened units as they go.
3) Denial of key tiles (after wiping out every unit caught in the blast). If you sit on a tile, your opponent can't sit on the same tile, nor pass through it. Offensively, you claim the cities behind the site of the massacre as yours; enemy Recons can't touch it since they would have to break through your meatwall first. Defensively, you can camp on forests/cities to minimize damage taken.

One minor advantage of BBombs is that your Infs can gang up on weakened Recons. Money-wise, you'll be ahead. However, I don't like the idea of spending 4 attacks to destroy 1 unit. Not when you could probably kill 4 Infs with the same 4 attacks instead.

Bland Inf v Bland 5HP Inf (Forest) is almost a guaranteed OHKO (you need to roll 0 luck to fail). The odd Infs on cities/mountains can be killed by vehicles.

Mass damage powers are good for the same reason that BBombs are. Not only do they put the enemy units closer to death, they reduce the defense bonus granted by terrain. Your units can also advance safely, as an 8HP unit only does 80% of its regular damage, and has reduced luck damage too.

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:56 am

Here's the deal with MD...

- Costs the enemy money
- Improves the infantry vs. infantry matchup
- Reduces the enemy's counterattack potential
- Reduces the enemy's capture potential
- You can invoke it anytime (this is real important)

Jess' 170/110 +2MP to vehicles seems pretty good until you realize that -2HP and 110/110 units is the equivalent of 150/110 in a 55% matchup. So all MD COs boost infantry in this regard. Sure, with a prolonged AWBW-style game, Jess should have an edge over Drake. But she doesn't because SCOPs are invoked at days 10-12. By that time, both sides only have around 5 vehicles.

Invoking it anytime is a big clincher. When we played with the luck COs, the bar usually finished charging at an undesirable position. The same applied to the recon/tank COs to a lesser degree. In that Max vs. Jess game, I had to hold Max's SCOP for 3 days in order to get enough recons to deal a crippling blow. That's 3 days where the opponent can launch a timing attack and not worry about feeding the opponent extra stars. With MD, you don't really give a sh!t when you use it.

I've moved Drake to high so that all MD COs are in the same tier. I also think Sonja is better than recon/tank COs after playing a few games with her, since she can invoke her SCOP anytime as well. Therefore, she no longer needs the distinction between visuals and no visuals.

Sven and I tested the vehicle blitz strategy with Jess last night. Unfortunately, by cutting inf, you invite the opponent to build mechs.

To test:
- Is Rachel the best MD CO? (potential 9 MD in a key area)
- Does Eagle actually have a disadvantage against MD? Sami doesn't because instant capture doesn't care about HP.
- Jake/Sasha vs. luck COs: reliability over the super hit?
Last edited by GipFace on Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Wumandius

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Wumandius » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:13 pm

Theorytards are theorytards.

Remember, guys - these are the same knuckleheads that said tabitha was broken one month, low tier the next, and fair the month after that one, and idk wtf their theories are now, but it doesn't matter.

Besides, this doesn't even make sense and would be destroyed by any competent positional player such as myself.

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:52 pm

these are the same knuckleheads that said tabitha was broken one month, low tier the next, and fair the month after that one

Hrm. Let me look at my archives. The last time Tabitha was in overpowered was back in June '08. Then she hit middle of fair. Around October '09 she spiked due to a tank gambit we found, but we quickly realized that was a mistake because airports weren't considered. In February '10 she went back to the bottom of fair after considering a standard airport. She has never been in the low tier. The only CO who has been in more or less the same position is Isabella, so what's your point? Every CO has ups and downs. Will started at underpowered lololol~

(For another example, see SSBM Jigglypuff. She is now top tier after sitting for years in middle and middle-low.)

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Narts
Rank: jätkä on blade runner

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Narts » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:08 pm

Theorytards are people who only play around with their theories but never put them into serious test. They are the ones whose theories never change. They're idiots.

You're welcome to join us in the IRC and bless us with your positional competence.

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DxDyDzD
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DxDyDzD » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:31 pm

Speaking of stars, the damage caused by MD doesn't add stars to either player so it is better than pumping COPs.

For reference, here is the vehicle blitz strat:
As Jess/Max/Grimm, build a Recon early and use it to attack capturing Infantry. The reason for using those COs is that their huge vehicle boosts allow 6 damage to an Inf on a city. That delays the enemy capture by 2 days compared to the normal 1. (Full HP infs capture 10-10, 2 days. If the Recon deals 5 damage, the capture goes 10-5-5, 3 days. If the Recon deals 6 damage, the capture goes 10-4-4-(2), 4 days.) Thus, if you knock the Inf down to 4HP, you've effectively gained 2000G. If the enemy joins another Inf to it so that they can capture in 3 days, that's one less capturing Inf they have.
Additionally, if the Inf captures the prop, after repairs it's at 6HP (unless using Rachel). 6HP Infs take 4 days to cap a prop. If the Inf was at 5HP, after repairs it would be at 7. 7HP Infs can cap a prop in 3 days. So the damaged Inf isn't useful for subsequent captures.

Money calculations:
Regular CO (5 damage to Inf on city): each attack does 1500G damage (500G for Inf damage, 1000G for delayed capture).
Veh. boost CO (6 damage to Inf on city): each attack does 2600G damage (600G for Inf damage, 2000G for delayed capture). If you hit two Infs, you've more than recouped your investment.

That sounds excellent but there are some snags. Firstly, building a Recon means you have one less capturing Inf, so your capture phase is hurt as well. Secondly, if the properties are close to the enemy bases, Mechs can retaliate. Thus it's probably better to use this on city hopping Infs. Thirdly, with Jess or Max, if you roll 0 or 1 luck (out of 9 max), you do only 5 damage, which means this has a 20% chance that you're no better than a bland CO. Lastly, with Grimm, his low defense makes him susceptible to the same strategy being used on him.

I feel that concentrated mass damage is more important than mass damage to every unit since the former allows more OHKOs. Inf v Inf base damage is 55 so there's no way a MD-everything CO can score OHKOs on 10HP Infs after SCOPing. On the other hand, 100 Def 4HP Infs (after being hit by 2 missiles) are OHKOed by your own Infs regardless of terrain. Each square that an enemy unit isn't blocking is another square to camp on/move through, so the units behind the front lines also have to be wary once the front lines go down.
Kindle can also be considered as a concentrated MD CO since her COP turns every property and all 4 adjacent squares around it into danger zones. If the enemy is on a prop, it gets knocked down to 7HP, ripe for a 2HKO. If not, you can move your unit onto the prop and beat the crap out of the adjacent unit. As a bonus, it hits those newly-built units as well, so they enter the battle at 9HP. If your opponent was city hopping, those props near his bases are going to take an additional day to get.

Eagle is a complicated CO to play as since vehicles cost more than Infs (and building vehicles is the only way to get anything out of his COP). But against MD, he can keep his front line vehicles/BCops healthy by joining newly-built 12-move Tanks/BCops/AAs to them. While this means building more vehicles, once you join you get the money back, so no biggie. His COP doesn't have to be limited to hit-and-run tactics; you can attack the same unit twice for massive damage, or slightly less spectacular damage if you're attacking with a 8HP unit.

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Sven

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Sven » Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:05 am

aren't you awful at the game

write words about your pet theories after you rape someone with them

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:13 am

DxD beat my Nell with Kindle! Poor Nell =(

Regarding Sensei vs Hachi: We haven't actually played this matchup due to the sheer unit hell. However, I'm thinking Hachi might actually put up a fight with discounted black bombs. They'll be put in the same tier for now using the logic that COs with similar strategies belong in the same tier. Down to 4 tiers again!

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Wumandius

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Wumandius » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:25 am

GipFace wrote: In February '10 she went back to the bottom of fair after considering a standard airport. She has never been in the low tier. The only CO who has been in more or less the same position is Isabella, so what's your point? Every CO has ups and downs. Will started at underpowered lololol~
:geshrug:
This is why it doesn't make sense. The tier list changes to whatever arbitrary standard you put out for the maps that are played on. I seriously doubt you're playing on bean island or the like when testing grit - you're stacking the odds for what you want to occur by setting up the board. I could for example claim that olaf is the best CO by making the standard map all be large snow maps with tons of forests all over the place.

The maps are too much of an x factor to try to make an accurate tier list, so these things don't even make sense unless we plan on playing on the same map all the time like in chess.
:hit:

opps, don't wtf happened here... >.>

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:28 am

Why wouldn't you want an airport? Are you Andy? Just for you, the tier list now has a ruleset with it.

Don't you feel all better now?

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DTaeKim
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DTaeKim » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:18 pm

We encourage GipFace's games and comments because quite frankly, he is one of the few players willing to play games out.

The fact you want to refute his position without playing him is ridiculous. If your superior positional play will defeat him, then try him.
What can change the nature of a man?

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:35 pm

I already attempted to play him. He lacked the intelligence to type in proper commands and quit on day 2. Then I invited him to stream from his end and he didn't. (the only equipment you need is a dual-core 3ghz processor in order to emulate and stream encode smoothly)

[18:42] <Narts> give him another chance gip
[18:43] <Gippy> Ha, he hasn't convinced me that I should waste 4+ hours on him
[18:44] <Wumandious> shall we play chess to prove?
[18:45] <Wumandious> I know the queen's gambit out to move 15, loser
[18:46] <Gippy> I don't see why you're so eager
[18:47] <Wumandious> Well, for one - I have rybka that has an elo over 3150... the strongest in the world, and 2 because I have a blitz rating of almost 2000
[18:47] <Gippy> Yes yes we're all proud of you
[18:48] <Gippy> How does this relate to AW again
[18:48] <Wumandious> they used to use chess to practice for war
[18:48] <Gippy> Yup because in real life, submarines can block fighters
[18:49] <Wumandious> and if you can do something on a small scale to perfection then you can do something on the large scale of perfection. sun tzu said that commanind large, and small army is of little difference
[18:50] <Wumandious> bah, you're ridiculous
[18:50] <Gippy> lol quoting Sun Tzu is the new Godwin's Law
[18:50] <Wumandious> I have a gf
[18:50] <Wumandious> and a job kkbai
[18:50] <Gippy> Yup k thanks

-

Now for something different.

Much of the new findings have revolved around planning for the black bomb. This might lead some people to think that the black bomb is a broken unit. However, I believe the black bomb is a balanced unit in Dual Strike. The charge rate and game pace are so much faster that there's no time to bank for one during the day 5-11 vehicle midgame. If you start banking too early, the opponent will overwhelm you with vehicles.

Only during the lategame will they come out, and that's around day 12 or so. It's only considered broken in AWBW, where charge rates are slower and maps are larger. Another AWBW myth busted!
Last edited by GipFace on Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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monkymeet
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by monkymeet » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:48 pm

LOLOL
imageshack swallowed up my sig. This is a placeholder.

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:29 pm

Putting Sasha above the luck COs because she actually messes up them real good. Could she go up higher? Well... maybe 90% cost units could go above the universal +MP COs if we figure out some timings for her. Over the course of the first eight days she gets a free vehicle. That may be huge.

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DxDyDzD
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DxDyDzD » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:56 am

Sven wrote:aren't you awful at the game

write words about your pet theories after you rape someone with them
Write words about me after you know what "argumentum ad hominem" is.
I don't make any claim that my strategies are unbeatable. In fact I clearly included the disadvantages of that strategy.
The point of me posting that was to bring up a strategy to explore. If it doesn't work then yes, I can accept that. Discard it and move on. What I will not accept are personal attacks on how a player sucks at this game (supposedly), and concluding that all ideas from him should never be explored due to that. Maybe that player has a brilliant idea but is too inexperienced to put it to real use. Maybe a stronger player can turn it into a winning strategy.
If all I wanted to do was "rape" people, I could just pick Sensei all day. But this is crumpets, because the reason we're playing now is to discover new strategies and work out the placement of the non-broken COs from said strategies. Picking only the strongest CO or sticking to tried-and-tested strategies contributes nothing towards research.

I hope that this will be the last time I have to put up with such an abhorrent attitude. I also hope that if I want to try out a strategy, I can do so without having to put up with snarky comments when (or if) I lose. Otherwise, it only serves to stifle creativity and interest.

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Sven

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Sven » Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:55 am

terribly sorry bro

but i have my own series of ideas and thoughts concerning this game and have no time or desire to test out those of players i consider inferior. my intuition about the game is better than yours.

despite what you believe the AW community is not some grand stage for enlightened theoretical debate wherein all logical arguments will play themselves out to their fullest extent and the greatest ideas shall take root in the end. there are practical considerations. my time to devote to the game is finite. most players are so fudge awful they end up a vehicle down against gipface before the powers even shoot.

my AW time is simply better spent testing my own intuitions than trying to test out every single little piece of verbal diarrhea you drop onto the forums.

if you have an assertion to make concerning gameplay it should be relatively simple for you to simply go and play the game yourself to demonstrate. these things are settled in 10 game days or less and you can get through these in less than an hour.

as for snark when you lose? lol. i have nothing but respect for you if you actually manage to play this game.

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:11 am

I dunno... had anyone else suggested that Drake was high tier, they would've been laughed off. But yeah, playing it out is what counts.

-

My Drake beat Narts' Rachel in an epic 4 hour game. However, my strategy of baiting the silos with a black bomb is much too slow. Maybe it'll work better against Von Bolt. Drake definitely belongs in the same tier as Rachel by virtue of just surviving, but I don't believe he's better than her. My win was due to a few mistakes that Narts did during the midgame, which allowed me to get a property advantage.

http://www.justin.tv/narts/b/274330562 - part 1
http://www.justin.tv/narts/b/274339286 - part 2
http://www.justin.tv/narts/b/274339683 - part 3

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DxDyDzD
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DxDyDzD » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:26 am

Saying "I am more experienced, so I know that your strategy will not work" is completely different from saying that "You are not experienced, so your strategy does not work". You started off by using from the latter, then jumped to the former to make it seem as though you are not launching ad hominem attacks.

If responding to my posts is so traumatic then don't. Nobody is forcing you to do so. You may not be able to avoid reading my posts, but I would prefer if you simply keep silent in the knowledge that I will never be as good as you (claim), instead of launching ad hominem attacks and getting involved in messy flame wars. The only one losing out will be me since all the super-duper AW pros can easily see why my suggestions will not work from their epic intuition. I'm fine with that. I want to have fun, and this back-and-forth argument is not my idea of fun.

If you want to test your own intuitions and ignore mine then fine. I don't feel that either of us will be worse off.

Calling a plausible strategy "verbal diarrhea" says more about your attention span than it does about my habit of supporting my arguments with calculations. You sound as though you have difficulty reading anything longer than 3 lines, even if it is a necessity for a well-supported argument to be longer than that. And judging by your responses as to why my strategy would not work, you don't seem to be capable of writing anything longer than 3 lines either, instead opting for the one-line "my intuition about the game is better than yours" to debunk my arguments. Because, unlike Fire Emblem, personal experience counts for everything, right?

I don't wish to drag this on further and have to face more drama or moderator intervention, so I propose that we avoid each other as much as possible. I realise it is more likely that you will belittle me for my lack of experience than you are to provide constructive criticism as to why my ideas will not work, so I do not feel I am losing anything by not listening or responding to you, other than a drop in my blood pressure. And similarly, you feel that all my ideas are crap simply because I have logged only 1 game in PvP, so you should not feel that you are losing anything by not listening or responding to me.

May we never have to deal with each other again.

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JSRulz

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by JSRulz » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:22 pm

Wow...

It is amazing how Gipface can turn everything you thought about AW, and turn it upside down. What is even more amazing is that he is single handedly changing how the AWDS metagame is looked at. Grit being bottom tier, Drake being close to top tier would be unheard of. It is like the entire AWBW game was based around full land maps, with heavy forestation. No one dared to mess around in different maps where some of the CO's would lose their situational status.

I always knew that Grit was situationally strong. In maps with airports, I always realized that it was a struggle to keep an offensive with Grit. However, all it takes is a few games with Gip, and all of a sudden... reality sets in and everyone realizes the truth. 80/100 direct units are crippling... you can't hold a line with just indirects... and how fast a CO bar charges actually matters.

Reminds me of most fighting games. In where tier lists fluctuate depending on new strategies. I commend Gipface for doing the research, but seriously, if anyone else tried to do what he did. They'll be knocked down as a theorytard and the strategies they said would not matter. His experience beats your expertise... and he has a record to prove it.

There is barely anyone left lurking all the AW community forums for flaming or hate comments. This research is very huge, and probably would have sparked people to take AWDS a bit more seriously if it wasn't 5 years too late. But, why wait until after AWDoR to do this? AWDS actually being one of the better balanced games actually is surprising... better late than never, I guess.

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DxDyDzD
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DxDyDzD » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:43 pm

JSRulz wrote:But, why wait until after AWDoR to do this? AWDS actually being one of the better balanced games actually is surprising... better late than never, I guess.
That's because Dual Strike didn't have Wi-Fi play while DoR did. And AWBW doesn't use Dual Strike's charge system (which is why the tier list is different there, such as Grit still being top tier). So there was no way to play AWDS with someone else unless you could meet up in real life...until Gip tried playing by webcam stream.

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:25 am

Actually, for virtually all the testing, we're using AWBW maps. I'm also playing AW3 more because AW4 has been more or less stable over the past year. The FEB 2010 AW4 tier list was the last overhaul, and I think the NOV 2010 list will be the final one.

80/100 directs are crippling, yes, but the black bomb is what really dooms Grit. The moment he starts massing artillery, he doesn't have a way to threaten a large area. The opponent can turtle hard with inf and bank for a black bomb. Grit has no spatial advantage: 4 range arty seems good until you realize that a tank has an effective 7 range minus terrain. He can only defend well, and eventually the other player will be able to use any strategy against him at will. It's kinda like any RTS: you gotta keep the other player on your toes or you'll get stomped hard.

AWBW bans megatank and black bomb because neither of them have hard counters. That's not really the way to think. Testing has shown that AW3 is fast enough that black bombs and megatanks don't need to be banned. Sure, the black bomb has made mass artillery a poor strategy, but the artillery is still good as a one-of or two-of unit. Unfortunately, having a D2D that boosts only a few units means the CO is going way down the tier list. Megatanks and black bombs are so expensive that it's basically the classic tech vs immediate power decision. The opponent can capitalize on a timing attack against a banking player. Focusing on timing attacks increases the emphasis on recons, tanks, and md tanks.

The key to becoming good in AW is to not think in absolutes. Unfortunately, AWBW has been conditioned to think this way, and the AW2-style charging there reinforces it. All the COs that are considered good there have a heavy D2D focus.

By the way, you can see all three tier lists on one page at http://nnl1.com/aw/

-

New thoughts to test:

- Sasha: With arty being unspammable, is Sasha actually better than we think? She may even move up to above the recon/tank COs just because she has the extra vehicle by day 8.
- Hachi vs. Sensei: Hachi might be top again just because it's very difficult to answer a center city megatank or a super cheap black bomb.
- Sami vs. Kanbei: Interesting because Kanbei can't exactly bank for a black bomb, and Kanbei can't harass as well. Sami is able to bank more effectively because she can mech spam.
- Drake vs. Von Bolt: The one weakness of concentrated mass damage is that a black bomb can bait while maintaining full efficacy. Rachel's silos cannot be black bomb baited consistently because her 6-star SCOP arrives just too fast. However, Von Bolt's SCOP is 10 stars and has a chance to be baited; a black bomb is worth slightly more than 3 tanks when it comes to calculating the location. If Von Bolt's SCOP can be baited consistently, he'll probably be worse than Drake. Yup, that's right.
- Luck COs: Nell is theoretically better than Flak so she's above Flak for now. However, I personally think Flak is better than Nell because you see Flak's +1 HP damage benefit more often, and his -1 HP drawback doesn't prevent many 2hkos. Maybe we should test Jugger as well. It may very well be that Jugger is the best of the three due to his larger luck range, though his SCOP takes an extra star.
- Jake vs. Luck COs: Hey, 150/110 on plains and +2 MP to vehicles (and +1 range) for 6 stars is terrible, but he might be more consistent than the luck COs.

I think the tier list in its current form is almost stable, and now we're just tweaking within each of the tiers. That's a good sign.

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DxDyDzD
Rank: Blue Bomber
Location: War Room

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DxDyDzD » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:57 pm

Von Bolt's missile will paralyze the Black Bomb so he has one extra turn to try to get to it. He can use his 120/120 units (during SCOP) to punch a hole in the enemy defenses and KO it next turn.
Alternatively, he can build a Fighter in response to the Black Bomb, knowing full well that if the missile hits the BB, he can swoop in with what is essentially an 18-move Fighter. Even if the Fighter gets shot down it's 20000G for 25000G.
Besides, having a paralyzed unit on a property slows down your unit production, but since it's on an airport and B-Copters are not as good as in AWDoR...
If all else fails, Von Bolt still has 110/110 D2D stats (emphasis on the 110 Def). I'm quite sure that can save him from being lower than Drake. Let me know what you think.

It's interesting that you brought up the fact that Black Bombs don't care how much HP they have. Black Bombs don't care how much attack they have either, so could this be a breakthrough for Eagle? Black Bomb+COP effectively means detonation anywhere you want. Alternatively, it means detonation 1 turn earlier than the rest, if you would need 2 turns with a regular CO to maneuver the BB into the right position. Half-attack Tanks will find it easier to attack 5HP enemies than 10HP ones.
On a smaller scale, the movement COs also give a slight boost to their BBs.

GipFace
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:39 pm

You want to bank for a fighter? Really? =/

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Messenger Of Dreams2 » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:52 pm

Heh, in my opinion everyone has their own tier list. I'll explain more when finish my post when I GET MY OLD ACCOUNT BACK!!!!! ;)
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DxDyDzD
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DxDyDzD » Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:15 pm

Is banking for a Fighter a bad idea? I mean, if your opponent has 25000G to spend, surely you must have at least 20000G to spend to counter his build.
Once the Black Bomb is destroyed, the Fighter is pretty much useless, but it's served its purpose already, and you've eked out a 5000G advantage.
Well, teach this new player something. As a general rule, how do you deal with an enemy Black Bomb build?

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RockNRoll.Sturm
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by RockNRoll.Sturm » Thu Nov 25, 2010 5:06 pm

@DxDyDzD: Getting a BBomb to work its magic is much easier than getting a Fighter to intercept the BBomb. A BBomb literally may only be used once, but the Fighter won't be of much use itself when the BBomb is gone.
O_O

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monkymeet
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by monkymeet » Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:19 pm

STEALTH BOMBER GO
imageshack swallowed up my sig. This is a placeholder.

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:42 am

Played 4 games in person with Sven.

Sami vs. Kanbei (me):
This one was too close to call. On a 1T map, Kanbei got SCOP first, but Sami held off SCOP for one day, then went in and took 1 neutral and 2 of Kanbei's props, giving her a 20-16 prop advantage. Kanbei was about to SCOP again, but then for some reason we got a com error, even though our DS units were less than a meter away from each other. We blamed surrounding wi-fi interference. Stupid Nintendo. Kanbei and Sami stays where they are on the tier list.

Von Bolt vs. Drake (me):
Von Bolt's D2D was just too much for Drake. The black bomb bait idea didn't work because Drake just got steamrolled before there was time to bank. The 2 MD doesn't affect Von Bolt as much as the other COs. I still think Drake has a chance because I played poorly at certain parts.

Sasha (me) vs. Javier 1T:
Oops, the map didn't have any airports. It started to go into an AWBW-style arty game, which Sven and I refused to play out. Boring as hell. No conclusions from this one.

Hachi (me) vs. Sensei:
Hahahahaha we finally got to play this matchup, since it's impossible to do over stream. What a farce it was. Hachi built nothing but infantry and one antiair for the first 8 days. On day 9 Hachi invoked SCOP with about $52000, building a battleship, 6 antiair, a copter, a tank, an arty, and the rest inf. Sensei countered with SCOP and kept up with the unit count. On day 11 (2 days later) Hachi had SCOP again with about $30000. After another round of building which composed of a mix of tanks and antiair, he ended the day with the unit count at 43-37. Sven resigned because although Sensei had SCOP ready again, his army was mostly made up of soldiers and copters. Hachi takes top spot because Sensei's strength, using COP multiple times to overwhelm the opponent, just doesn't work against Hachi. The power bars charge too fast with additional units, so Sensei is forced to SCOP. Hachi is simply ridiculous!

Broken
Mass unit COs (Hachi, Sensei), Super stat COs (Colin, Javier 2T, Kanbei)

High
Sami, Eagle, Mass damage COs (Kindle, Rachel, Von Bolt, Olaf, Hawke, Drake)

Middle
Sonja, Recon/tank boost COs (Javier 1T, Jess, Max, Grimm), Universal +MP COs (Andy, Koal, Adder)

Low
Sasha, Luck COs (Nell, Flak, Jugger), Jake, Lash, Javier 0T, Grit

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DTaeKim
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by DTaeKim » Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:38 pm

Gip, can you explain why Kanbei is superior to the mass damage COs and is par with the broken tier?
What can change the nature of a man?

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:27 pm

Kanbei's D2D is pretty good. Also, the weakest moment for a CO is right after they use a power, since they cannot recharge their bar during this time. Kanbei's SCOP provides protection here, so the opponent shouldn't be able to attack into him much. Rachel is going to cause problems because she can consistently SCOP before Kanbei's SCOP, but I already speculated that Rachel might be the best mass damage CO of all. Her SCOP is so underpriced that it's a welcome sight every time. Also consider that maps in AW3 have a maximum size of 30x20.

At the moment, Eagle is looking more and more like the odd man out of the high tier, though we haven't played much of him. Aside from the mass unit COs, which break the game in half, the rest of the current top COs are resistant to disruption while capping. Colin's cheaper units mean that he'll take less loss value, Javier 2T and Kanbei have 150 DEF on a city, Sami's resistance is obvious, and Kindle counters at 140 ATK.

I'm thinking that both mass unit COs might just be in their own tier, since both of them stomp Colin and the rest easily.

Still to test:
Kanbei vs. Sami (tested but more games needed)
Rachel vs. Kindle (tested but more games needed)
Eagle vs. mass damage COs
Jake vs. luck COs (ugh)
Sasha vs. middle tier (goddamn this will be boring)

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:52 pm

The AW3 RNG is vastly different than the AWBW RNG or the CW RNG. The only way to reliably rate them, like every other CO, is to test them on actual games of AW3. Also, I have a hunch that Nell might be the worst of the three despite not having any negative luck. Flak/Jugger's +2 will show up more often, while -1 doesn't matter unless you're trying to 2HKO a city unit.

deemo is back

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by deemo is back » Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:16 pm

my god gip
i go away for one month
one month
and i come back to find that grit of all people is in the bottom of low tier
i know you said he wasn't broken but wtf man
wtf

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