Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Talk about Advance Wars DS. Debate, laugh, cry, argue about everything to do with our favourite tag game here.
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Xenesis
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Xenesis » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:08 am

The 110/110 is good, but every now and again during the enemy's turn isn't going to do any favours. Heck, Von Bolt isn't the most feared CO in high tier despite having that ability constantly.
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Kilian18 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:45 am

Okay now, maybe I shoul give it up, leave the COs as they are if you like. You might be more experienced than me in such things, cause I'm not having enough Multiplayer experience, and I can do most things only in theory. If you can tell, that Sasha is more even with low tier Cos than with Balanced Tier Cos, it's fine. Anyway she's either weakest of Balanced or best of Low. I just wanted the things that I mentioned in my posts to be rethought. I didn't do this because Sasha is one of my favs (I actually don't really like her) but because I saw her being eventually underestimated.

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Sven

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Sven » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:01 am

the COP is awkward to utilize against an opponent who's aware of the pacing of the game. she'd be good if she had a SCOP to punish an opponent for playing around the COP, but instead you get unplayable garbage.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by metroid composite » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:03 am

It's been established that a CO's D2D isn't as important as the power. (Drake's operating at worse-than-Andy D2D but his mass damage saves him)
I agree that COPs often overshadow D2D, but I don't think that means looking exclusively at COPs.

Like...ok, imagine two COs. One with a 100/100 D2D and a 160/110 SCOP, and a second CO with a 110/100 D2D, and 130/110 SCOP. Since you'll be SCOPing once every three turns or so, the first CO averages about 120/103 over three turns and the second CO averages about 116/103. The CO with worse D2D and better SCOP is better! And this also nicely demonstrates why the D2D CO is better in a slower charging system where it takes, say, six turns to SCOP.

But it also shows that it's not impossible for someone with a good D2D to fight someone with, say, just a firepower bonus SCOP. In the above example, a 120/100 D2D would end up ahead of the 160/110 SCOP CO.


Mass damage is hard to out-stat, though. If you can assume that you'll always be fighting at 8 HP, for instance (due to Drake's/Olaf's SCOPs) you'd need about 120/120 D2D stats if you're trying to make an 8HP vs 10HP match even via D2D bonuses. But someone who is fairly bland D2D and just gets a firepower bonus during SCOP? Yeah, above average D2D stats should be able to put up a fight there.
As for Grimm, his SCOP gives him 190A infantry.
Umm...kay, let's compare Grimm Infantry vs Jake Infantry on plains.

D2D plains vs plains:
Grimm's Infantry deal 68% to Jake's on average
Jake's Infantry deal 71% to Grimm's on average (65% without plains bonus)

SCOP plains vs plains:
Grimm's infantry deal 98% to Jake's on average
Jake's infantry deal 96% to Grimm's on average (trash without plains bonus)

And while we're at it....

D2D road recon vs city infantry:
Grimm's Recon deals 67% to Jake's infantry on average
Jake's Recon deals 67% to Grimm's Infantry on average

Granted, yes, Jake is at a disadvantage off plains. But plains tend to be really common. Also, Jake's SCOP gives a +2 movement bonus to vehicles so at worst he should be able to position his vehicles on plains using that move bonus, and at best he'll get some good first strike moments or be able to attack with a vehicle that he would otherwise be unable to attack with. Not to mention using the threat of the SCOP--since everyone in this matchup can punch through an infantry wall, Jake can put his tanks at 7 range from Grimm's tanks and potentially force a retreat for a turn.

See how this feels like an even matchup, and doesn't feel like a medium tier character badly outclassing a low tier character? 190A SCOP is all well and good, except that anyone with a 150A SCOP deals about the same damage to Grimm during their SCOP. And...like half of low tier has something approximating a 150A SCOP.
Javier 1T walks over her, though, thanks to 110/110 D2D
Err...I assume Javier 1T means he gets a tower, AND his opponent gets a tower (otherwise that's just an imbalanced map). This makes him effectively more like 100/110 D2D. Which is...still very good as far as D2D bonuses go. Still probably sounds like enough to beat Sasha. (As much as I have a LOT of respect for +10% income D2D, 100/110 is also very good, and Javier's COP is almost as good as his SCOP so he really doesn't mind Market Crash).

In fact...it strikes me that 1T Javier utterly stomps everyone in Middle tier. His infantry are significantly better than everyone else's infantry. His Tanks can damn near go toe-to-toe with Max D2D. (No, really: 1T Javier deals an average of 59% to 1T Max on plains, 1T Max deals an average of 61% to 1T Javier on plains). I'd argue that his SCOP is pretty much just better than Sonja's. And unlike Sonja, he has a good COP.

And yet, I don't think he can touch the mass damage COs. He basically needs a capture advantage by the time they mass damage or else he can't catch up. And as good as his COP spam is...it merely allows 8HP units to go toe-to-toe with 10HP units, and he can't be in COP all the time.

(I guess you could argue that he out D2Ds most of them, so might get a capture advantage but...nahhhh, mass damage is also good at screwing with your opponent's capturing ability).

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by BlackHoleSun227 » Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:19 pm

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by ThunderWalker » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:27 am

I find it funny that the orginal post still has the old tier list with Grit at the top, while we all know that Grit has fallen from grace for a long while already.
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by monkymeet » Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:01 am

Did the metagame changed from artillery and man spam to mobility with recons/tanks?

because that sounds a lot like some certain european wars
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Linkman » Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:51 am

It's more like the MAN/Artillery Spam was enabled by AWBW's crumpets mechanics and does not translate to real AWDS.
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by monkymeet » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:31 am

yay for upgrading from people standing in lines shooting at each other to calvary with mobile troops

much more interesting
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Linkman » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:48 am

You'd think so, but it's really not. What little I played of AWDS, it has a reduced metagame of four units: Infantry, Mechs, Recons, Tanks. There's very little strategy involved tbh.
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by HPD » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:49 am

Linkman wrote:You'd think so, but it's really not. What little I played of AWDS, it has a reduced metagame of four units: Infantry, Mechs, Recons, Tanks. There's very little strategy involved tbh.
and even then it's like 60% inf and 30% tanks or something
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Satel » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:48 am

More along the lines of 80-90% infantry, and 1-4% tanks. The relevant rest is 80% mechs 20% recons. Anything else is irrelevant.
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Sven » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:51 am

you fill empty bases with something almost regardless of game. the only reason you don't in DoR is because the charging mechanic punishes you for trading 2 mechs for a tank.

vanilla AW with no powers is slow and boring and devolves into zzzz arty/inf stalemates.

charging is so slow in AWBW. you might as well be bland because they banned any remotely interesting COs and decided that we'd all play von bolt dittoes. hence you get slow boring games.

charging is really fudge fast in AWDS. it's way easier to play a good game trading off directs than it is to gamble on artillery placements surviving through power trades. hence you get lightning fast direct only games.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:56 am

In DoR (AW4) there are times where you don't want to build anything, but that is extremely late game where you already have 30 units or such, or the beginning where you'd rather build a single bike over 2 infantry. Veteran status is game-swinging, and having tech units feast on infantry isn't something you want the opponent to capitalize on.

Infantry suck in AW4 because it's a LOT easier to 1HKO them, and terrain cover isn't godlike in AW4 compared to the older games. In the old games, an infantry on a city can survive a md tank/antiair/bomber hit. That's why tech units sucked and everyone played with basic units in the older games. In AW4, I can build a Waylon bomber and it's gonna give the middle finger to a soldier or a tank no matter where it is.

The REAL root of the cause of infantry spam in AWBW/AW3 is that somewhere down the line, people insisted on playing with 3 base maps. Let me tell you right now, 3 base map games SUCK. The only way you're getting 3 vehicles/turn is if the income for both sides is at least 20k. But everyone's in love with 3k starting income maps. You can see where this is headed. By the time both sides have 20k income there are already a horde of infantry on the map because you can't afford anything else.

With 2 bases and 14k income, guess what happens? Ta-dah! You don't build infantry every turn! Sure, there are some turns where you'll build 2 infantry anyway and bank for tech land or air units, but at least your build orders aren't on autopilot.

Fast direct games are the norm in AW3 because trading infantry gives you SCOP by day 10. Also, it's more advantageous to have direct units during a SCOP. Indirect units have to get into position a day early, and ain't nobody got time for that. One or two artillery can be useful, but artillery clusters just open you up to an eventual black bomb.

AWBW is garbage because they play bland for 95% of the game and it doesn't represent any real AW game.
Last edited by GipFace on Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:23 am, edited 5 times in total.


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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:15 am

How is that relevant? This is about AW3, not AW2. Grit is a great CO in AW2/AWBW land. AW3? Not so much.

Also I'm not gonna listen to some noob ramble on for 25 minutes about a tier list. It's only worth a chuckle because he botches the pronunciation of the Yellow Comet names like a weeaboo. (skip to 14:45ish) Didn't see the rest of the video.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Fynmorph » Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:50 am

How/Where do you actually play with other people lol

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Xenesis » Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:44 am

We've played in the past using Teamviewer and the game running in an emu.
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by hawkesnightmare » Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:33 am

Do we have an updated list for the CO tiers, or is the most current version buried in here somewhere?
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Xenesis » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:27 am

GipFace wrote:Broken
Mass unit COs (Hachi, Sensei), Super stat COs (Colin, Javier 2T, Kanbei)

High
Sami, Eagle, Mass damage COs (Kindle, Rachel, Von Bolt, Olaf, Hawke, Drake)

Middle
Sonja, Recon/tank boost COs (Javier 1T, Jess, Max, Grimm), Universal +MP COs (Andy, Koal, Adder)

Low
Sasha, Luck COs (Nell, Flak, Jugger), Jake, Lash, Javier 0T, Grit
This was the last update in the topic of something resembling an actual tier.

It's from 2010/2011 so be what it is.
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by hawkesnightmare » Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:49 pm

Thanks a bunch. That should be late enough to be relevant.
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Satel » Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:50 pm

I thought Grimm was low tier?
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by uzernamefail » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:18 am

I feel Kindle is a notch above the other mass damage COs. Unlike Olaf, Drake, and Hawke, whose units are kinda meh, her stuff becomes absolutely ridiculous when on a property, especially with her COP/SCOP. In comparison to Jake and Koal, her terrain bonus is much better because properties are vastly more important than plains or roads to securing an advantage, and its pretty hard to out class the 30-40% defense from properties (cities, bases, and HQs) without being on either another property or mountains. She also quite possibly has the best COP in the game:
-3 Stars: Drake and Hawke can EAD
-Versatile: Use it to weaken enemies on a property to open it up for capture, or make it very hard to take cities from you with the firepower boost. Also stops captures.
-Fights Haichi/Colin/Kanbei: Haichi and Colin are admittedly broken characters, especially when they build a crumpets-ton of units using their powers. Kindle gives approximately zero crumpets, and Haichi goes from paying 50% of a unit to 68% after he repairs his units on his next turn, while Colin goes from paying 80% to 96% after repairs. On regular COs, the change is from 100% to 120%, meaning you can see what they have built and retroactively make them pay Kanbei prices, and on Kanbei himself the price goes from 120% to 144%. So her power is actually a threat for most of the top COs.
-Not time-dependent: While you do lose the ability to really capitalize on the 80% firepower on cities and fighting crippled units on properties, Kindle can use her COP at the end of her turn and still make it hurt. So you can use it at the beginning of your turn, or build it through fighting on your current turn (not hard because it's a 3 star) and use it after the action.

I don't know, it just feels like I would rather have her over anyone outside of Haichi/Colin/Sensei/Kanbei in most situations.

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Sven

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Sven » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:52 am

hey, i thought similar things for a long time but it just didn't turn out to be the case.

it doesn't matter how good your COP is in this game unless it wins the game on the spot. you'll still have to deal with an opponent's SCOP for each COP you use because the charging in AWDS is lightning fast. it's true that kindle's COP is probably just straight up better than andy's hyper upgrade or some other lower tier SCOPs. she'll win because of urban blight in those matchups.

but it's not better than two mass damage. or rachel's absurd nuke trio. or pretty much every other CO we have listed at high tier. either her infantry end up getting bullied day to day because they have worse stats and you'll have a competitive game because of that (sami/vonbolt/hawke) or she'll fire off an urban blight only to face a SCOP in response (olaf, rachel, drake).

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by kiwi » Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:56 am

is it possible to play awds online somehow that isn't having one person running the game while the other tells them their moves to make?

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Linkman » Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:36 am

That's how they played AWDS for a while, yeah. It is very tiring though.
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Sven » Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:41 am

kiwi wrote:is it possible to play awds online somehow that isn't having one person running the game while the other tells them their moves to make?
i think if you go digging there's a stable customwars release somewhere.

beyond that you use teamviewer i think, which involves taking over their comp like a boss and inputting the moves on a single instance of the emulator.

you can also savestate swap if you wanna party like it's 2003

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by uzernamefail » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:18 pm

Is the above list using 1v1, tags, or both? If the list is based on one of the former, how do you feel tiers change in the other?

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Xenesis » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:52 pm

1v1, really.

Tags basically make everything more extreme and make the good COs better. Sensei/Hachi is basically unbeatable because you hit the unit limit by day 8 or some absurd nonsense like that.
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by uzernamefail » Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:18 am

I have a few more questions on our assumptions for tiering COs:
-What units are supposed to be available? I know ground and likely air, but I'm not sure if naval units are part of a "competitive" map, seeing as only a handful of COs have any use for them.
-On that note, how many bases/airports/ports does each side get and how much money should each side be getting in income?
-Is FOW on? I've heard arguments for and against it.
-How large are the maps? I mean the actual scale of the battlefield as it pertains to having to transport units and being able to rush your opponent's HQ. The tiny maps run very differently from the large ones, and that's not even getting into the issue of terrain and road infrastructure.
-Weather? I don't see day-to-day weather mentioned anywhere, so I doubt the community really uses the random feature.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Xenesis » Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:36 am

-Ground always, air is desirable (allows things like the BBomb tech and whatnot)
-Variable, it just skews your composition in some ways. It's not terribly important unless it's too extreme one way or the other (AWBW level to 50-bases level)
-FoW isn't played that much, it's just not that popular. Unlike AW4 it doesn't change too much here though.
-Again, variable. One screen to one map editor is the usual range.
-It's not used because it causes problems.
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by JSRulz » Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:32 pm

The Old Custom Wars Downloads...
http://www.customwars.com/download.html

I think the tier lists still have a bit of wiggle room, but there are only so many maps that are considered competitively ready. The biggest weakness from AWDS and the previous titles is lack of online multi-player to help streamline the tier lists. I think both Custom Wars and AWBW both emulate Advance Wars 2, so the best way to test AWDS is probably playing the game itself with a friend.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by uzernamefail » Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:43 am

So operating under these assumptions:
-Terrain plays a bigger part, which goes a long way toward helping the terrain-themed COs (Lash, Jake, Koal, Kindle)
-Lack of naval units makes Drake a harder sell, and Grit can't use Battleships/Carriers
-Ground units can generally get to where they want to go, so Kanbei doesn't have to fork over the cash for T-Copters/Black Boats/Landers, which don't justify their 20% cost increase since they can't attack
-Sensei is a lot more balanced on naval maps (+1 d2d MP on Landers/Black Boats notwithstanding) because he has to work harder to get his units to the front lines and he can't block as well. Unfortunately, Haichi's COP becomes completely stupid when he's getting Battleships/Carriers for 14000/15000.
-No FoW hurts Sonja pretty hard. Granted, I've heard she's broken by most accounts in FoW, but tiering her out of her element makes her look worse. However, the focus on ground combat makes her d2d much more useful.
-No random weather is a small disadvantage for Olaf because of how much he gets from snow.

But this does give me some insight into how AW is generally played.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:28 am

Since the last update, I've played a bit more with Rachel.

I'm convinced that Rachel belongs in the broken tier with Colin and Kanbei and she actually might be better than both of them. There is no way to play around 3 silos on day 11. Period. At that point, two of the silos will hit the same spot every time, so her SCOP is at least better than a free black bomb. Even Colin can't get a black bomb that early without sacrificing tech, and his black bomb will blow up a day or two later.

Honestly, the only thing set in stone is that Hachi and Sensei are indisputably #1 and #2. Could Rachel be #3?

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by ALAKTORN » Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:52 am

OP list seems kinda bad… where’s the updated list?

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Dragonite » Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:40 am

Gip hasn't the power to edit it. Maybe he will be better of a new topic, actually. Developed metagame is mostly his anyway(as long as black bombs exist/are allowed). Isn't the black bomb the sole reason why Grit doesn't work out well in this game?

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Xenesis » Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:54 pm

Nah, Grit also has the game pace working against him. He's powerful once he has set up but that is incredibly hard with AWDS' breakneck pace.
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Sven

Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Sven » Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:29 pm

game pace is fine.

grit is one of the only COs where you can literally ignore the city count and focus purely on building towards a huge deathball. he probably gives up cities more often in AWDS than in the earlier games, but it's still the same strat working in the same way.

unfortunately that huge deathball is hard countered by blackbombs. i suspect you could play with a more balanced composition without too much penalty, but i fudge hate playing as grit.

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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by Linkman » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:48 am

I don't get these "nice" spambots. Pessy74td, either sell me viagra or get out.
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Re: Advance Wars: Dual Strike CO Tiers

Post by GipFace » Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:31 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m64BWEMLwAE

Vintage analysis (Hint: Don't watch it)

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