Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

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Post by Bog » Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:02 am

D13 wrote:
bog-bog wrote:"Any CO can cuase MASSIVE DAMAGE when you bring forces into the conversation. And Flak and Jugger don't cause MASSIVE DAMAGE often enough for them to be awesome. The have negative luck, too. "

Yep, any CO can, but Flak and Jugger even more so
Let's bring Von Bolt or Hawke into this conversation, hmm? Expecially Von Bolt.
That's two COs out of...how many?
But Sasha is above bland, so :P or something.
Only slightly. It not even worth mentioning. Marginal advantage.
Sasha has a better capture phase because of the extra money. Why else? She can get out those few extra infanty or buy that APC you need more quickly.
The most extra cash she will be having in the capture phase isn't much. And because Sasha sucks on small maps, that just proves my original point: Sasha is very situational.

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Post by DTaeKim » Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:11 am

With regards to capture phases, the best capture phases in the game goes to Colin and Sensei. Colin gets 1 Infantry and 1 APC for 4900G and Sensei gets +1 transport bonus. Sami is next thanks to her capture bonus. Sasha is above the bland COs because she gets additional income. With a mere 5 properties, she gets 5500. In two days, she gets an additional Infantry compared to the bland COs. You don't need 10 properties to see the effects of Sasha's D2D. Five is plenty already. Kanbei arguably has the worst capture phase because of his increased costs. With 120/120 units, it doesn't hurt him as much as it should.

Someone on WWN stated that Sasha's D2D is about as good as 110% offense due to unit efficiency, unless my memory is off. In any case, Sasha is NOT situational. Her D2D affects properties, and the last time I checked, every map has a number of properties. If you think the size of the map matters, then why isn't Hawke situational? His long powers will probably hinder him because he won't be able to use them in a small map.

When you talk about situationality, you refer to the terrain and map composition in terms of ports, airports, and bases. Not the size of the map. The size of the map matters in certain circumstances, and Sasha definitely isn't one of the COs affected by the size of the map.
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D13

Post by D13 » Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:15 am

Post directed at bog:

I'm not even going to bother to quote the sections I'm responding to anymore. Too much work.

Sooo...

Flak and Jugger will occasionally deal more damage than normal. They will also deal LESS damage than normal, but they will deal extra damage more often than less damage. They're still simply not reliable. We could also bring int SASHA, Kanbei, Kindle, Sonja, Sensei, Nell, Rachel, Eagle, and Jess. There are more, but these COs pretty much own Flak and Jugger. These luck COs are only slightly better than bland D2D IMO.

Also, Sasha's extra funds really add up. And they only pile into her COP. The extra funds ARE enough to let her beat down blandies while holding down their powers. Also, how small are these maps you're refering to? Like 7x7? >_>;

Look around AWBW and see the lack of small competitively used maps. Most maps are Medium-small to large with at least 10 properties for each player. Often much more than that.

Also, lets just end this like all AWBW arguments are ended.

AWBW DUEL ;]

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Post by DTaeKim » Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:25 am

There's no point in AWBW. First, this is an AWDS debate, and AWBW is far from an accurate simulator. Second, Flak is worse than bland in AW2, which only leaves Jugger and Sasha as the real COs to use. Third, the effects of D2Ds are enhanced due to the AW2 charge system, which give Sasha one heck of an advantage.

Sasha will blow Jugger out of the water.
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D13

Post by D13 » Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:33 am

DTaeKim wrote:There's no point in AWBW. First, this is an AWDS debate, and AWBW is far from an accurate simulator. Second, Flak is worse than bland in AW2, which only leaves Jugger and Sasha as the real COs to use. Third, the effects of D2Ds are enhanced due to the AW2 charge system, which give Sasha one heck of an advantage.

Sasha will blow Jugger out of the water.
Dang. >_>;

Well we could always play AWBW for fun, bog. :P

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Kireato

Post by Kireato » Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:52 am

@eternal enlightenment

Sensei never was in the same tier as Sami, he's superior due to his powers. He's a menace to even the other broken COs in AWBW... Sami doesn't come anywhere close.

His day to day might have been nerfed, and effectively it seems pretty fair, but his powers are still monsters in their own right. (And Colin's day to day never was amazingly great either, it was excellent, Von Bolt excellent, but his powers were what did the trick...) AWDS's charging system isn't going to help. And anyone who tells me the 50 unit limit will help is obviously retarded.

@DTaeKim:
Colin gets 1 Infantry and 1 APC for 4900G and Sensei gets +1 transport bonus. Sami is next thanks to her capture bonus.
It's rare that the transport bonus makes a difference. On the other hand, you can always count on Sami's capture rate. She'll finish the captures she starts even with light harassment. At least outside of CW balance mode, as recon harassment won't be all that light... But since we're talking AWDS...
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Post by Treedweller » Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:57 am

Yeah, I'm with Kir on Sensei... I always thought it was the fact that he can summon an overwhelming amount of infantries rather than the fact they were so powerful that makes him potentially overpowered.

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Post by DTaeKim » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:09 am

No arguments about Sensei here.
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Sven

Post by Sven » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:20 am

i confess, i messed up droppin' "i'm sorries" like you're still around

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Treedweller

Post by Treedweller » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:27 am

what

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Post by thefuzzychickensz » Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:54 am

Edit: Hot damn I shoulda looked at the dates before posting....>.<
Kiltman2 wrote:To address the initial question, Sensei is the stronger CO, purely because of the powers, however, his B-copter boost isn't as powerful as you'd assume. A B-copter can be easily countered with an A-air or another B-copter, and the new defences of cruisers especially makes B-copters quite useless fighting a navy.
Well Sensei has un-nerfed artillery and slightly boosted Mechanized Infantry to back up his Battle Copters. And I believe they do deal a fairly useful amount of damage on those expensive naval units.

--
Okay...Sami has slightly enhanced standard and mechanized infantry with better capture abilities and lowered direct vehicle power...fairly bad eh?

Sensei 0wns with an Air Unit...Battle Copters. Simply enough to mercilessly defeat Sami's standing, along with that his infantry are also slightly boosted and able to swarm massive amounts. Now with his massive infantries, his transports are also swifter than Sami's.

Dammitall, they shouldn't have nerfed Sami from AW2...I must say Sensei is obviously the better CO.
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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by Link_DZ » Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:37 pm

I wonder how can someone declares himself an "AW Player" saying that Sami is not a powerful CO. Sensei's infantry/mechs can be slightly stronger than Sami's, but her COP, SCOP and capture abilities makes her a much more valuable CO. Do you want an example? Put both of them to battle on War Room's Lock Ridge map, preferably Sami on Orange Star and Sensei on Yellow Comet. Sami's mech + mountains are the best combinations, since they can handle a great number of units and avoid the stronger ones. The result of this battle will be probably the capture of Sensei's HQ by a SCOPed Mech on a mountain 4 squares away. This Mech couldn't be stopped even by Sensei's Airborne Assault, since the cost effect on mountains is very high and his Mechs become powerful, but they don't move faster. On this map, Lash will prove much more useful than Sensei, if you ask me.

It's just a matter of knowing how to use some COs. For me, Sami's most painful weakpoint is his SCOP Meter, since it's one of the biggest in the game. But she's still my second-favorite CO in the game.

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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by DTaeKim » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:34 pm

Lock Ridge is far from a competitive map.
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Sven

Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by Sven » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:41 am

and so several years later we see i was right and that indeed ds sensei with ds charging would suck lol

played gip some months ago and sensei really can't do anything to reverse an FTA. the whole theory of the infantry blob being so good is that well, he should be able to do that easily.

yeah not happening rofl.

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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by Blame Game » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:34 am

wasn't that little fudge island? meh

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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by Sniffit II » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:45 pm

I liked using both, but I prefered Sensei, as the B-Copters were pretty much my fav unit after bombers. You can get them out early in the game, and Sensei + B Copters = Who needs MD Tanks?
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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by Zeratul » Thu May 05, 2011 11:19 am

i dont care about wat im supposed to do here but sami is way hotter then any other co
but u cant beat sensei's copters and powers
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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by eliascpsells » Thu May 05, 2011 11:53 am

I say it's definitely Sensei. Who cares that 140/100 was lowered to 110/100? Sami got nerfed too. 130/100 to 120/100, and no more +1 transport movement. Sensei has fudging 150/100 copters, and +1 movement range. The powers rival eachother kind of. 9hp mechs vs. insta-capture (just add water) and massive infantry damage. Sensei can mass meatshield, but sami can sprint for that lovely hq. i still say its sensei though.
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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by GipFace » Sat May 07, 2011 12:29 am

Did we really have to bump this up from three years ago? Sensei is the second-best CO in the game next to Hachi. End of story.

Who cares that 140/100 was lowered to 110/100? Sami got nerfed too.
Actually, both COs got better because of the DS charge rate. (DS Sami will blow out a lower tier CO more easily than in AW2) Sami can SCOP as early as day 9 now. However, Sensei can just COP 3 times in a row and cackle as he outnumbers you at least 35-20 and smother any tech unit that stands in his way. Every CO that relies on a powerful COP/SCOP became better, and that's why once-terrible COs like Drake are playable. Sensei doesn't even need to build a single b-copter.
Last edited by GipFace on Sun May 08, 2011 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by eliascpsells » Sat May 07, 2011 1:20 pm

How did the ds charge rate change from the aw2 charge rate?

How is Hachi the best CO? I know about taht 90% deployment, but Colin has 80% for 90/100. Or are u talking about that 3 star 50% deployment thing? cuz that i can understand. But tell me this also: in AW2, was a good sensei strategy mech/infantry spam + b-copters?( im thinking this cuz in AW2 his non-air or infantry were weaker).
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Sven

Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by Sven » Sat May 07, 2011 3:55 pm

aw2 charge rate depends on unit costs while awds gives each unit a distinct value. AWDS gives the cheaper units ridiculously high values, allowing games to have incredibly quick powers shoot off when infantry are used. hachi basically plays with all his units at half price and no restrictions on the number of bases. it's pretty ridiculously overpowering to face. maybe sensei can manage but i honestly doubt it

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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by FormicHiveQueen » Sat May 07, 2011 3:58 pm

eliascpsells wrote:How did the ds charge rate change from the aw2 charge rate?
For all intents and purposes, it charges nearly twice as fast. That's all you really need to understand.
eliascpsells wrote:How is Hachi the best CO? I know about taht 90% deployment, but Colin has 80% for 90/100. Or are u talking about that 3 star 50% deployment thing? cuz that i can understand.
5 stars and you've got a Megatank for dirt cheap on a forward city. Around day 8 or 9. One does not simply counter that and move on.

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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by Xenesis » Sat May 07, 2011 10:13 pm

FormicHiveQueen wrote:For all intents and purposes, it charges nearly twice as fast. That's all you really need to understand.
It's more like two to four times as fast, mainly due to how much more infantry are worth in charge.
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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by eliascpsells » Sun May 08, 2011 12:09 am

ok. i kinda notice that in campaign where its like day 4 and von bolt has his scop. its very annoying lol
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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by GipFace » Sun May 08, 2011 7:03 pm

In AW2, one star was worth $9000. DS soldiers are 0.4 stars. That means they're worth $3600 in the AW2 system. Recons/tanks/artillery/antiair are 1.0, which are still above their AW2 worth. Holding back a power is bad in DS because it's almost like giving up 2 stars due to over-damage incurred. This is why the luck and positional (+MP) COs fare worse than the other COs. When Nell gets SCOP, she is usually not in a position to make good use of it, as only about a third of her units will be able to actually attack the enemy. Therefore, she's in a bit of a pinch: does she wait for reinforcements, or does she use SCOP right away? Waiting for reinforcements only increases your chances of being obliterated by a black bomb, so DS games are usually aggressive to the point that banking for a black bomb causes tempo and positional loss. Hachi and Sensei are broken in that they can reinforce with absolutely no tempo or positional loss. In fact, both Hachi and Sensei can bank for a black bomb under power coverage and end the game with that.

Due to the fast charge rate, a strategy that is seldom used in AWBW becomes common in DS: suiciding your infantry to vehicles and invoking SCOP early. This is especially good for the mass damage COs who don't care about using a power at the beginning of the day. Long live Drake!

In a live Hachi vs. Sensei game, both COs hit the 50-unit limit on day 12 and were getting their SCOPs every other day. Joy.
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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by george_the_greek » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:58 am

Interesting analysis of COP charging in here. I'll leave that to you guys who know more about those things than I do and step back to offer a different perspective.

I always saw Sami as someone who was efficient with her infantry. A real special forces kind of CO. She might not have the massive amounts of infantry running around that Sensei does thanks to his COP/SCOP, but the ones she does have are 1) stronger in terms of firepower and 2) have the unique advantage of an increased capturing rate. Her infantry are the "silent professionals," the spec ops of Advance Wars. Her reliance on infantry efficiency is further reinforced by her COP and her SCOP, which strengthen existing infantry rather than creating whole new ones. Her SCOP also makes a 1 HP infantry equal to a 10 HP infantry for capturing purposes--now that's efficiency.

Sensei, on the other hand, as a former paratrooper, is all about massive and/or creative troop transport. That's my reasoning for why he has the unique advantage of +1 transport movement range in AWDS. I also never considered his infantry to be akin to Sami's special forces, but rather considered them to be the "light infantry" of Advance Wars. They have increased firepower versus normal infantry, but these are the guys from the 101st Airborne Division, not SEAL Team Six. His potentially massive airborne unit drops (using his COP and SCOP) harken back to the massive drops that occurred in WWII, and this historical bit jives with his character.

In the real world, you can't compare the 101st Airborne to SEAL Team Six because they're two very different units. They aren't built carry out the same kinds of operations as the other. The debate is valid for AWDS purposes, however, where infantry are infantry and they're all supposed to do the same jobs. I think the question simplifies to this: would you rather have a ton of marginally better (compared to the standard) infantry, or fewer infantry that boast the highest firepower of like units in the game PLUS a bonus to their capture rate?

The answer to that question seems to be... it's situational.

In some instances, you'll want Sensei's concept of "power in numbers." You can use those infantry as fodder to protect more valuable units. Those infantry will help you overwhelm the enemy with sheer numbers. You could also join them to generate funds and help you afford better units than you otherwise could have. Whatever you do with them, infantry are most useful in such numbers when you have a "main force" that you can advance them with and that they can support, especially if you are going to use them as fodder. To me, that's why Sensei's non-infantry ground troops were buffed for AWDS--he's not an entirely infantry-oriented commander anymore, he's a combined arms guy whose infantry are just somewhat better than the standard and who can enlist those infantry for free. This makes him good with infantry, but he's closer to being a "bland" CO than he is to being someone with a prominent specialty counterbalanced by glaring weaknesses, like Sami, in my opinion. In day to day terms, his only weakness is naval firepower and his only strength besides the slight infantry boost and transport movement is the battle copters. Most of his units are the typical 100/100.

Now, in other instances, you'll want Sami's uniquely efficient infantry, and in extreme cases you won't be able to get the job done in any other way. Think early HQ or other property rushes. That's why her infantry are the spec ops of this game. They can get in there and get the mission done when no one else could have done it like that.

Personally, I find both COs fun to use, but I'm not a master of Sami and her HQ rushes. I probably do better as Sensei. I already said who I think is stronger above: it's situational, hah. Each CO is good to use but one does better than the other in certain situations and conditions.

Though if we were to address the question more like, "Who would win in a battle, Sami or Sensei?", I would say Sensei. Sami's infantry may be stronger, but they'll be overwhelmed by sheer numbers. Whoever wins the capturing phase, however, will depend on whether the properties are scattered far from each HQ (advantage Sensei due to transport movement bonuses) or whether the properties are in an area where there will be a lot of fighting going on, relatively speaking, even in the early game (advantage Sami since her wounded infantry can still finish the capturing job). If the capture phase ends and neither CO has gained a clear advantage over the other, I give the edge to Sensei due to 100/100 ground and air units--and of course the battle copters that can 1HKO a lot of foot soldiers.

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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by HPD » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:13 am

Let me just dig up that GipFace quote again just for you: "The most important thing in the game is unit count, period."

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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by Mark_009_vn » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:11 pm

In the real world, you can't compare the 101st Airborne to SEAL Team Six because they're two very different units.
Yeah, it's like comparing A-Bridge-Too-Far to Tom-Clancy. A-Bridge-Too-Far ALWAYS wins in the end, it's just too epic.

In reality, both uses the same concept, Sami's insane gamebreaking capture rate modifier allows her to captures over 6900 + 96 properties near the combat area, which lead to her have more funds thus more units. Sensei's even more gamebreaking COP that lead to the ritual harakiri of several IS employers, gives him free units. So in the end they all uses the number game to win. You said that you can't compare the 2, while this has an element of truth to it when they're pitted together, as the number game changed to Sensei's favor, while the "efficiency" lend to Sami's favor. The comparison is like when people used to think that there are 2 types of fighter planes called "boom-and-zoom" and "turn-and-burn" (boom and zooms can go very fast but can't turn very good, as such they attack by going in, swoop down the enemy, and go back to hide in the bushes. While turn and burn can't go fast, but can turn very well, so they'll try to get the enemy in a turning battle and shoot them down from the behind), and does not realized that they only have different band of energy and nothing else. (airspeed and altitude combined are called energy, this phrase means that they both manipulates their overall energy in such a way that they're still equal in energy to each other despite the differences. Sorry for the high usage of aerial philosophies and terminologies, I just can't help it being a avid WW2 simmer :P) Which means that even though "boom and zoom" can't turn as fast as "turn and burn", they still retains a huge amount of speed in a turn to get very close to a "turn and burn". Like wise, the high turn rate and great speed conservation abilities of "turn and burns" allow them to out runs even the fastest of "boom and zooms" at times. Which means that they're pretty much equal, a good example of this is a battle between the Japanese A6M Zero and the F4F/F6F Wild/Hellcat.

Both CO's can win the fight either by numbers or firepower, Sami's wall-hacking, capture rate modifying train wreak could capture more properties than Sensei given the right map, which not only gives her more funds but also DENYING him of cities he could capture. In other words he'll get less units by COPing. While Sensei could still win the firepower game with a brain damaging amount of units, as 2 110/100 infantries could still be better than 1 120/100 infantry, that and the fact that he wouldn't need to create infs that often, he could make more armored units. The only thing that matters in the end of the day is army size and efficiency. And as Sensei got nearly triple the army size and have very little loss in firepower, he'd be all over her in 16 consecutive seconds.
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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by GipFace » Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:53 am

Sensei, on the other hand, as a former paratrooper, is all about massive and/or creative troop transport. -and of course the battle copters that can 1HKO a lot of foot soldiers.
No. Sensei could be bland like Andy and still be broken on the back of his 2 star COP.

In day to day terms, (Sensei's) only weakness is naval firepower and his only strength besides the slight infantry boost and transport movement is the battle copters. Most of his units are the typical 100/100.
Thank you Mr. Obvious. Spitting out facts like these instead of actual insight make you FHQ and not... well, me.

would you rather have a ton of marginally better (compared to the standard) infantry, or fewer infantry that boast the highest firepower of like units in the game PLUS a bonus to their capture rate? The answer to that question seems to be... it's situational.
Wrong. More infantry every time; this isn't even arguable. Also, Grimm's infantry pack more punch.

In reality, both uses the same concept, Sami's insane gamebreaking capture rate modifier allows her to capture (more props) near the combat area, which lead to her have more funds thus more units.
This is a better attempt at trying to justify Sami than just using stats. It's still wrong. More funds doesn't give you more units. More funds lets you tech. Colin gets to tech to md tank (or 3 tanks) a lot faster than the other COs and that's why he's better than most. However, this isn't Days of Ruin: unit count is king in Dual Strike. That tech won't do much when Sensei smothers your front lines with infantry.

Sami's wall-hacking, capture rate modifying train wreak could capture more properties than Sensei given the right map
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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by Narts » Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:05 pm

More worrying is the fact that nearly 1 out of 3 people apparently don't know how to use IRC despite there being a freaking mibbit link at the top of our forum

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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by Mark_009_vn » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:42 pm

It's not like I don't know how to use it it's just that I'm a shy little man. :p
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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by george_the_greek » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:19 am

No. Sensei could be bland like Andy and still be broken on the back of his 2 star COP.
Thank you Mr. Obvious. Spitting out facts like these instead of actual insight make you FHQ and not... well, me.

So it wasn't an "insight," and it was never meant to be. I was justifying my calling Sensei a relatively bland CO who is best with a combined arms force. He's not quite "bland like Andy" but compared to, say, Max, Colin, etc., he's pretty bland because most units are the standard 100/100 with no range, luck, or cost modifiers. I don't consider COP or SCOP as aspects that would change that fact and I was not commenting on his being considered broken, though for some reason, you decided to. Your responses inaccurately attack some of my post's smallest details--details that were only meant to justify the larger, out-of-game perspective I sought to bring to the discussion--and you have the nerve to insult me personally on top of it, while putting yourself on some kind of pedestal, like everyone gets compared to you.

Wrong. More infantry every time; this isn't even arguable. Also, Grimm's infantry pack more punch.

Maybe against another player in Vs. Mode, yes, more infantry will get you through to victory every time. But for the purposes of achieving a high score in the campaign or war room, which is what I had in mind when comparing the two COs, sometimes Sami's speedy HQ captures are the best or even the only reliable way to get the highest score. That's why I said it's a situational choice. I wasn't basing my thinking on Vs. Mode. Though if you did indeed read my whole post you saw that towards the end I addressed the question of who would win in the theoretical (and Vs. Mode-oriented) battle of Sami v. Sensei and I gave the edge to Sensei due to the massive number of troops, which you would agree with.

I'll admit that I had forgotten about Grimm when I was talking about the firepower of infantry units.

Sorry, it's just silly to argue with people who haven't played actual games and instead try to fill their argument with sh!tty historic situations. You are more than welcome to visit #wwn @ irc.arg-irc.net and play someone. However, it's a FACT that 1 in 5 people are afraid of me, so I won't blame you if you're a chicken. Bawk bawk!

I think you misunderstood that I was basing my thinking in achieving high scores in campaign and especially war room (a situation where Sami has long been a favorite, dating back to AW1) and not Vs. Mode. My bad for not making that clear at the start of my post. Either way, the insults are uncalled for, and no, I'm not afraid of you. Who are you? Why should I be afraid of you? Because you could beat me at Advance Wars? Oh, boo hoo.

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HPD
Tri-Star CO
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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by HPD » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:34 am

The last part of Gip's post really was intended as a joke.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by GipFace » Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:51 am

for the purposes of achieving a high score in the campaign or war room... sometimes Sami's speedy HQ captures are the best or even the only reliable way to get the highest score.
HMMM~ You're totally off here, but of course I don't just theorytard. Here's something to back it up:
http://www.celestialbridge.net/fogel/aw ... scores.txt
All combinations have been played and 300'd, even with Grimm. With a few exceptions where you can brute-force a capture due to poor AI, Sami is only faster than the other COs by a day or two. So by furthering discussion on the merits of Sami and Sensei in singleplayer, you just make yourself look foolish.

I was basing my thinking in achieving high scores in campaign and especially war room
The war room project is complete, so nobody cares about which CO is better in singleplayer anymore. I assumed all further CO discussion was about the merits of the COs in pvp. Unfortunately, you're still living in 2007.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by ALAKTORN » Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:06 am

that’s so terribly outdated it’s not even funny

but your argument still stands yeah

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Bonesy
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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by Bonesy » Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:40 pm

i'm not afraid of gip

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Mark_009_vn
Rank: PzB 39 anti tank rifle operator
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Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by Mark_009_vn » Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:28 pm

Maybe against another player in Vs. Mode, yes, more infantry will get you through to victory every time. But for the purposes of achieving a high score in the campaign or war room, which is what I had in mind when comparing the two COs, sometimes Sami's speedy HQ captures are the best or even the only reliable way to get the highest score. That's why I said it's a situational choice. I wasn't basing my thinking on Vs. Mode. Though if you did indeed read my whole post you saw that towards the end I addressed the question of who would win in the theoretical (and Vs. Mode-oriented) battle of Sami v. Sensei and I gave the edge to Sensei due to the massive number of troops, which you would agree with.
In single player, balancing discussions became completely invalid, it's like bringing a chainsaw into a cat-only fight really. : P
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GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by GipFace » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:07 am

Bumping to add the text I'm putting in for Sensei for the WWN overhaul:

AWDS: At first glance, Sensei appears to be heavily nerfed from AW2 because his soldiers are 110/100 instead of 140/100. That couldn’t be further from the truth. He’s even better than you can imagine, enough to make him the second-best CO in AWDS next to Hachi. To understand why, you have to recall the power meter charging system of the two games.

In AW2, each * represents G9000. To get 2* for his COP, Sensei needs to take and deal 120HP infantry damage: G12000 + G6000 = G18000. In practice, getting that much loss value with only infantry is close to impossible, so there will be vehicles in play before Sensei can use his COP.

In AWDS, charging isn’t based on unit value, but unit type. Losing an infantry charges 0.4*. To get 2* for his COP, Sensei just needs to take and deal 34HP infantry damage: 1.36* + 0.68* = 2.04*. Therefore, it’s possible for Sensei to get his COP while only losing a paltry G3400 in loss value, which is less than 30% of AW2’s requirement!

The early part of a typical PvP game involves building infantry to capture cities, then attacking the enemy infantry with your own. As AWDS Sensei charges about 3.5X faster than his AW2 counterpart if only using infantry, he’ll be happy to ram his infantry into the enemy, or let them soak up hits from enemy vehicles. Then he’ll get his COP, ram his new infantry into the enemy, and repeat ad nauseam. The enemy will be soon be smothered by the infantry horde. To sweeten things further, whenever AWDS Sensei uses his COP, which will be every 1-2 days from his infantry, his vehicles will be 110/110. AW2 Sensei’s vehicles are only 90/110 during COP, and he won’t get his COP as much, either.

In short, AWDS Sensei’s Copter Command is absolutely outrageous. It’s the most powerful COP in Advance Wars history, and is better than every SCOP except for Hachi’s Merchant Union. Only that SCOP can match his unit production, and that’s why Hachi and Sensei are the two greatest COs in AWDS. Sensei could have bland abilities and still be broken just from his powers, but the b-copter and soldier boosts are simply icing on the cake.

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ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by ALAKTORN » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:51 am

with each COP use it takes more to charge a new one though

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Which CO is stronger: Sami or Sensei?

Post by GipFace » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:07 am

Yeah, by 2/3 of an infantry each time if loss values are still equal. That's nothing lolol~

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