CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

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Airnike
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CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by Airnike » Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:17 am

Name: Shin Gosen
Faction/Army: Orange Star Army :os:

A young samurai who keeps most of his past veiled. He recently took his parts of the Gosenkai with his 18th anniversary, and uses it to oppose Akuma, his brother, and his revived Black Hole.
:hit: Shakuhachi sounds, sword fighting
:miss: Sumo fights
"It's in the destiny of our family to make people suffer."

Description: He's a very little boy, with a-little-more-than-shoulder-length darkred hair. He wears a white shirt and a white hakama with a stripe motive. In fact, he's Koal's son, and as such doesn't care of how many people's demise he causes to win. He's a warrior and a scholar near as much as Koal is, but he speaks more normally due to his friendship with Michel, his bodyguard.
-Personality: Not very talkative at first sight, he is a businessman, and as such considers himself to be superior. Resigned to live an eternal war, he seems to take battles, and more precisely his life, as theater acts.

-History: Shin is born in a region that always was disputed between Yellow Comet and Orange Star. He is the son of Koal, who after AWDS, became the CEO of the main industry production group in Delta Land, the Gosenkai. He grew up in his twin brother Akuma's shadow, because Akuma was the oldest. He was overtrained in spying and lived nocturnally, so he developed a sharper acuity, but he was also hit by photophobia. When he was 12, Koal left Akuma with total control over the Gosenkaï and, as implied, the highest industrial power in the whole Delta Land. Shin was set to get his parts when 18, and Akuma chose one of his "friends" to help him to manage the Gosenkaï. The decisions of the industry group went completely heartless and without conscience. Shin, acknowledging a Black Hole revival, and seeing his younger brother Karano becoming a child soldier, betrayed Akuma by wrecking the operations he was assigned to, and changing side to Orange Star.

CO's Theme: http://www.tekken.eu/tekkenforces/musiq ... lusion.mp3 Take the title as "A Legacy of inflicting Pain" instead of "Conclusion".

Quotes:
CO Powers:
- "Can't you see how much I am superior?"
- "Hiding is of no use. I can see everything."
- "The light of the day will soon fade for you."
- "The showdown is about to begin."
- "War never dies. It's the truth."
Tags:
- "Fall back to reality."
- "Let's write another chapter in the painful history."
Wins:
- "The show is over for now..."
- "You're a joke."
- "You cannot deny fate."

:skill: In forests, gets a 20% boost in offense. Piercing vision.
CO Power Meter:ImageImageImageImageImage
:power: True Sight: Ignores movement penalties. Offense in forests +20%. Movement increased by 1.
:super: Eye of Truth: Ignores movement penalties. Offense from forests +40%. Movement increased by 2.
Last edited by Airnike on Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
MysteriousLad be like:
Oh hello, I am MysteriousLad.
Do you know when I was an OP player? When I wasn't in WWN and massclaims were legit good? Yea I miss the days I could force town to claim, rout out the mafia, and win the game for free day 3. Sometimes without being killed!
Senpai HPD notices me everyday when I'm town, do no scum play, and still get lynched day 1.
Anyway, it's time to go and ask people to claim and go lynch those who don't with my high-skill OP role.
I am MysteriousLad.

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Satel

Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by Satel » Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:25 am

No tremendous stat boost, but piercing vision makes him top in FoW, before Sonja, I think, since he has no bad luck...
His powers seem overpowered, compared to Lash's COP, but anyone'd say Terrain Tactics is underpowered for some reasons I already know. Apart from that, I find your guy nice in fog, and since I'm a fog player...
Joey wrote:i think i was mad at certain players and wanted to wave st3rn's success in their face at the most opportune moment, or something

st3rn fudge st3rn

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DieselPheonix

Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by DieselPheonix » Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:48 am

Lash's CO Powers may be weaker by comparison, but I'd say her day to day is stronger since Fog of War is non-standard and doubled terrain has its uses, even if you'll only get to use it once or twice a game under AW2 settings. The perennial issue with Fog-based COs is you have a two-sided deal going on; one aspect of the CO is present in a specific gameplay setting while absent in another.

The Super is merely an upgrade of the Power. When they're that close in cost, I'd consider differentiating them more while keeping the short and long-term in mind.

You know

Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by You know » Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:00 pm

Hum... Well, every super is often supposed to be an upgrade of the normal power.
I don't really know what kind of buffering I could do, and as offense and movement already get a boost (even if "perfect movement" applies mostly on woods only, these are his fighting area), upgrading range, luck or anything else would instantly lead to an effect overload (aka Sonja disease).

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DieselPheonix

Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by DieselPheonix » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:20 pm

Tell me why I should use this CO.

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Airnike
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Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by Airnike » Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:03 pm

Well, he's tops on forested areas, and when you're in Fog of War, his piercing vision allows him more useful recons, and his powers allow him to have the most useful recons in the game, being able to walk through eight forests... and he has no weakness.

And, if you care, he's a badass.
MysteriousLad be like:
Oh hello, I am MysteriousLad.
Do you know when I was an OP player? When I wasn't in WWN and massclaims were legit good? Yea I miss the days I could force town to claim, rout out the mafia, and win the game for free day 3. Sometimes without being killed!
Senpai HPD notices me everyday when I'm town, do no scum play, and still get lynched day 1.
Anyway, it's time to go and ask people to claim and go lynch those who don't with my high-skill OP role.
I am MysteriousLad.

User avatar
DieselPheonix

Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by DieselPheonix » Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:41 am

The margin for "Sonja Disease" is higher than you think and slightly off to the side. I find Rachel a better example of this so-negative trait. But, if you want essentially one CO Power while everyone worth using has two, go ahead.

Normally I don't care for creative fluff save making an offhand note, but if your aim is the Hall of Fame, I'll remark on what I see. He is the archetypal youthful hero, brash and headstrong while wise beyond his years or otherwise a quick study, and everything goes his way in the end no matter the dangers he puts himself in. His father was slain before him and he has vowed revenge against his brother who is using their father's corporation for malicious ends for no apparent reason. Their mother is nowhere to be seen, so I can only assume they came about through binary fission.

Ainiku in person

Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by Ainiku in person » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:24 pm

[quote="DieselPheonix"]The margin for "Sonja Disease" is higher than you think and slightly off to the side. I find Rachel a better example of this so-negative trait. But, if you want essentially one CO Power while everyone worth using has two, go ahead.

Normally I don't care for creative fluff save making an offhand note, but if your aim is the [url=http://www.warsworldnews.com/index.php? ... o/edge.php]Hall of Fame[/url], I'll remark on what I see. He is the archetypal youthful hero, brash and headstrong while wise beyond his years or otherwise a quick study, and everything goes his way in the end no matter the dangers he puts himself in. His father was slain before him and he has vowed revenge against his brother who is using their father's corporation for malicious ends for no apparent reason. Their mother is nowhere to be seen, so I can only assume they came about through binary fission.[/quote]

Okay, I think I have things to answer, let's proceed in order.

First: I don't know how to add something useful that wouldn't be overpowered to his SCOP. And there are limits to bonuses, there's already: perfect movement, piercing vision, and a forest boost on top of that, and, on top of on top of that, vision bonuses. That makes 4. If I add something more, I come up to FIVE effects, so I think the Sonja disease limit is reached... Maybe Eye of Truth could have one more effect, but I don't know what I could add in here...

Second: Shin is everything except brash and youthful. In fact his behaviour is more of an older person's. This strong-intended trait comes really just before, because he spent the first Delta Land War swaying sides between OS and BH as a double agent, and the second behind the scenes, hiding himself from his sworn enemy until the final fight he came to lose. This made him even more of a hidden one, because he simulated being dead for longer than he really was. Until his "second resurrection" came to the others, he really was more shy than strong-intended. But the motivation of getting what is rightfully his changed this like instantly.
Third: Shin never vowed revenge for his father because he despised him. And he only wants his brother to die since the latter revived Black Hole with the original goal of an eternal war. Then, the "malicious ends" were supposed to be part of a plan of Koal, aiming to take over the entire Delta Land. Akuma originally followed Koal, but when left alone, he just has a motiveless Black Hole to lead, and vows revenge against Koal for playing him when he learnt he was supposed to die.
Fourth: His mother is only supposed to be running in the nowhere after she divorced... Telling you anything about her would be useless, because she isn't part of the storyline anyway. What did you expect?

Fifth: I am done, and I hope I gave good explanations without giving hard feelings.

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DieselPheonix

Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by DieselPheonix » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:57 am

If you feel you're running too many effects, maybe you should cut some? Vision COs are extremely niche; having a decent bonus in forests is probably enough for that due to their extra use promoting their usage in Fog. Also, think about what your CO offers that others don't; Sonja and Lash are the most apparent contemporaries currently. Don't just look at the stats either, keep in mind both COs are seen rather poorly in terms of usability.

I was being facetious and stupid. You have a better idea of the character than I do, being the author behind him. But, while I could peruse your notes, being told about the character is less preferrable to seeing the character in action.

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Airnike
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Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by Airnike » Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:15 am

OK. Replaced the vision bonuses with movement bonuses. This makes him more Koal-esque.
MysteriousLad be like:
Oh hello, I am MysteriousLad.
Do you know when I was an OP player? When I wasn't in WWN and massclaims were legit good? Yea I miss the days I could force town to claim, rout out the mafia, and win the game for free day 3. Sometimes without being killed!
Senpai HPD notices me everyday when I'm town, do no scum play, and still get lynched day 1.
Anyway, it's time to go and ask people to claim and go lynch those who don't with my high-skill OP role.
I am MysteriousLad.

User avatar
Satel

Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by Satel » Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:32 am

Movement boosts are much better than vision boosts: you'll have to make the gauge longer if you don't want him to be overpowered like he is now.
Want an explanation? Here is one.

D2D: No change, OK.
Power: Adder and Lash's powers combined for a lower cost than Lash's power? You should think again about that.
Super: Sidewinder is 5 stars, OK, but why do you add this forest bonus and Terrain Tactics over this for no increase of the cost?
Joey wrote:i think i was mad at certain players and wanted to wave st3rn's success in their face at the most opportune moment, or something

st3rn fudge st3rn

User avatar
DieselPheonix

Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by DieselPheonix » Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:52 am

I wouldn't consider this lumberjack Koal overpowered, in fact he might be worth using. Keep in mind Sidewinder and Terrain Tactics are often overshadowed by their contemporaries, the more accessible Sideslip and more potent Prime Tactics.

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Airnike
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Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by Airnike » Sat Sep 25, 2010 12:06 am

You know, in Everyoneisbrokenland, normal COs are a joke.
I didn't apply my charts, because it would have made the COP cost 5/6 stars and the SCOP 9.
So... according to my charts, he's clearly overpowered...
MysteriousLad be like:
Oh hello, I am MysteriousLad.
Do you know when I was an OP player? When I wasn't in WWN and massclaims were legit good? Yea I miss the days I could force town to claim, rout out the mafia, and win the game for free day 3. Sometimes without being killed!
Senpai HPD notices me everyday when I'm town, do no scum play, and still get lynched day 1.
Anyway, it's time to go and ask people to claim and go lynch those who don't with my high-skill OP role.
I am MysteriousLad.

User avatar
DieselPheonix

Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by DieselPheonix » Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:15 am

I would reserve such finite judgments until practical evaluations are possible. I'm still concerned that the repetition of the two Powers limits his options.

Ainilu himself

Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by Ainilu himself » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:38 pm

Well, what is it again? That problem.
My very first feeling tells me:"Heck, does DP think most COs have only one COP or something?"
And in that case, what could you advise? I don't really understand what you say by "limiting options" since I'm not that much of a player and I don't have "professional" play experience...

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DieselPheonix

Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by DieselPheonix » Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:37 pm

Realize the things I look for in a CO are different from you or the next person. I weigh heavily on practicality first while you value cohesion. What, exactly, do you want? I haven't claimed to be some balance guru in any of my remarks.

If you seek outward approval for your efforts while being unwilling to consider them, I don't think you've sorted your priorities.

Ainiku again

Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by Ainiku again » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:57 pm

The question actually is: What makes you use a CO Pwer instead of another when they look alike? (Like Koal's, Max's, Grimm's and so on...)
The answer would apply to Shin's case.
If one CO Power completely overshadows the other... I could think about revamping Shin's COP effects.

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DieselPheonix

Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by DieselPheonix » Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:37 am

I would use another CO, but that's irrelevant in the end; what do you want from this CO?

The one you know as Ainiku

Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by The one you know as Ainiku » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:40 pm

Exactly?
Well, to have a movement-specialized CO who could top Lash in forests.

User avatar
DieselPheonix

Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by DieselPheonix » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:59 am

Well then I'd say you've done it.

Shins creator

Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by Shins creator » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:29 pm

I forgot... he had to be balanced enough to be playable amongst other COs in most outcomes. Better if he'd be high/upper tier, but uppers are despised, so...

I wanted to do a high-tier movement-oriented CO specialized in forests.

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Airnike
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Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by Airnike » Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:53 am

Well, no one comments anymore, so the final veersion of Shin is:

D2D: Piercing vision, forest offense boost: 20%
COP: True Sight ( :smallstar: :smallstar: :smallstar: ): +1 movement, forest offense boost -> 40%, perfect movement.
SCOP: Eye of Truth ( :smallstar: :smallstar: :smallstar: :bigstar: :bigstar: ): +2 movement, forest offense boost -> 60%, perfect movement.


And, to thank you, a collector Hall of Fail version: my first try of Shin !!

D2D: Perfect movement, piercing vision, forest offense boost: 20%. Bad luck: 20%.
COP: True Sight ( :smallstar: :smallstar: :smallstar: ): +2 movement and vision.
SCOP: Eye of Truth ( :smallstar: :smallstar: :smallstar: :bigstar: :bigstar: ): +2 movement and vision, halves enemy counters.

Yeah, he was broken. Haters gonna hate.
EPIC FAIL!

I gotta say, goodbye guys, enjoy or hate.
Last edited by Airnike on Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
MysteriousLad be like:
Oh hello, I am MysteriousLad.
Do you know when I was an OP player? When I wasn't in WWN and massclaims were legit good? Yea I miss the days I could force town to claim, rout out the mafia, and win the game for free day 3. Sometimes without being killed!
Senpai HPD notices me everyday when I'm town, do no scum play, and still get lynched day 1.
Anyway, it's time to go and ask people to claim and go lynch those who don't with my high-skill OP role.
I am MysteriousLad.

User avatar
Satel

Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by Satel » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:21 am

I remembered laughing at the 1st version XD
Joey wrote:i think i was mad at certain players and wanted to wave st3rn's success in their face at the most opportune moment, or something

st3rn fudge st3rn

User avatar
Airnike
Rank: doing absolutely nothing
Contact:

Re: CCO Shin - Hall of Fame version

Post by Airnike » Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:07 pm

When I look deeper, he only had the ever-so-slightly-situational perfect movement on top of his current day-to-day.
His brokeness came only from his True Sight (which btw completely overshadowed Eye of Truth), and AWNet told me: "So yeah, this guy is massively broken."
Ah, and I forgot he had some bad luck at that time.
MysteriousLad be like:
Oh hello, I am MysteriousLad.
Do you know when I was an OP player? When I wasn't in WWN and massclaims were legit good? Yea I miss the days I could force town to claim, rout out the mafia, and win the game for free day 3. Sometimes without being killed!
Senpai HPD notices me everyday when I'm town, do no scum play, and still get lynched day 1.
Anyway, it's time to go and ask people to claim and go lynch those who don't with my high-skill OP role.
I am MysteriousLad.

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