CO Les (First Attempt)

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Britzter

CO Les (First Attempt)

Postby Britzter » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:40 am

:gecap: Pre-note: I would like to apologise in advance if this has inadvertently copied a previous idea. I will admit this has been inspired by the Spy from TF2, and I apologise if it gets really cringe worthy in places.

After reading the custom COs on the home page I was tempted to make my own and one boring Sunday afternoon I made... 15-ish... This one seemed like the most interesting/ balanced one I had come up with.

Think French when you're reading this.

Thank you, and one last apology for it being TL;DR.


Name: Les

Faction: Grey Sky (AWBW)

Biography: Les is a very shifty and silent missionary for the highest bidder; he knows what price he wants and will take no higher or lower. He's is not very well known by many people as he doesn’t necessarily keep his friends very close or tell them much about himself. Even though those who hire him are initially sceptical of his abilities they are soon in awe at his incredible combat abilities. In terms of ethics he does at least have a few; he will accept a surrender from his opponent with mercy and even surrender to prevent the needless suffering of his own troops. In more dire situations it's typical of him to vanish before things get complicated and is rarely heard from until the fiasco has quietened down.

Les’s first full time employment came from a figure more mysterious from him. Only communicating by phone and letter and never addressing in person a woman who never introduced herself she asked for his services on the basis she needed a good “right hand man CO”. Accepting the offer, due to having few places to turn and low on income, he was a diligent commanding officer of Grey Sky.

Profile quote: “…”

:hit: : Espionage
:miss: : Apprehension

Description: Les may stick out in a crowd, but you'll rarely see him in a crowd. Only ever venturing out with his balaclava mask on, he'll stick to lesser taken paths and dim lit streets to make his way around, travelling under a cover of darkness. Despite this he does have an uncontrollable urge to dress quite up scale, being the sophisticated and learned man he is. Wearing a white pressed shirt at all times with a burgundy button vest draped over it, like a king’s cape, he stands proud with his shoulders back and his back straight as if to say: “I am the better man, just accept it…”. His shoes are jet black along with his prestigious gloves of antique design, used to pick up secret documents without leaving a finger print or two.

Image (I'm aware this is a DS sprite, it was easier to edit...)
He isn’t greatly blessed in height and is a tad shorter than others at his age, especially for a commanding officer.

But like any good man he has to sur-come to some regulations and red tape. Willingly, he wears army grade trousers, but luckily they do at least match the rest of his suit (although he wanted black). And even though the fibres are stale and the craftsmanship looks like Colin made it still doesn’t subtract from his piercing glare which could make anyone freeze; even if they didn’t know he was watching… they could feel it.

Personality: Les is very quiet and very to himself. He does have a few friends whom he speaks with on a regular basis, however they don’t know much about him as he isn’t very open. Very gentleman like, he accepts enemies surrender with mercy and, as a result, gets an even higher feeling of superiority close to that of a god. Internally, and through body language, he seems a bit full of himself (but it’s hard to be when you don’t say anything). Just the look in his eyes can say it all, and when he starts smiling you know you’ve lost.

History: Les always had a knack for in depth analysis of a situation along with perfect strategic planning along with remaining anonymous. Even though he’s a fairly young CO at the moment, in his younger years he was a fairly average child. Getting average grades and having an average life with average house an-.. you get the picture. And because of this blandness he realised that people paid less attention to him. Unlike any other child who would just start kicking a screaming for some attention he used this to his advantage and managed to get away with a many childish crimes, such as graffiti for which he still has a suppressed ability for.

In the later years his mischief making was becoming more and more of a problem for people living around him. The most frustrating part is that Les was the least suspected of all those accused. Eventually as people were ruled out he decided to move to a much more urban place from his original home, which was fairly rural. In the City he applied for its top university, in which the administrators were very sceptical as he had no school diplomas or any other qualifications. After being turned away from a short interview Les later met up with the administrator and set to prove himself based on a Game of Chess, the administrator declined such a childish wager with a snort and walked obliviously into a busy road from which Les instantly pulled him away from the path of a rocketing truck. It only seemed fair that the administrator gave him a chance.

Les graduated in an average amount of Years with a 2:1 in human Psychology, and went on further to study in espionage and taking up a variety of jobs in just 2 years such as a: freelance policeman, sleeper agent, road sweeper. Today he works for Grey Sky as second in command over all armies, and is a valued CO by his employer.

On a side note Les also possesses a very good set of hands. Not in a magical magician sense but in a bomb defusing, computer typing, needle threading sense. He’s rather skilled with a Balisong and has a very exquisite memory, able to recall a set of objects he’s only seen once.

CO's Theme: Something similar to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI4yNc4Xtxw (I’m sorry in advance)

Quotes:
“...”
“… Hmph!”
“… Hmhmhmhm…”

Technical Section

I would just like to point out this is where I may be having balance issues and I would like some suggestions to balance. I think it's the Super CO Power is either too over powered or doesn't have an appropriate star cost.

His troops are all focused upon their sneaking ability, and are trained in taking advantage of their terrain to keep the enemy baffled. Due to spending so much time in the classroom and not enough time outside his troops do suffer in actual combat, but in a few rare instances they are more capable than any other enemy class in their field.

:skill:
Units can hide in forests and reefs when FOW is NOT present. Lessens enemy vision range in FOW (-1). Air Units have extended vision range (+1)
For this all units have 90% Offensive and Defensive capabilities. (90/90)
(Note: Submarines at 120/100 and consume less fuel when hidden).

CO Power Meter: :smallstar: :smallstar: :smallstar: :bigstar: :bigstar: :bigstar:

:power: CO Power: “Smoke Screen”
- Les lends all his units some really good quality camouflage and tells them to hide behind the hills!

All units have a “Submerged/ Hidden” effect! (Enemy units can reveal the location of Les’s units by being along side them, default 10% defence boost)

Quotes on activation:
“…”
“Hm…”
(Smirking avatar)

:super: Super CO Power: Undecided.
Last edited by Britzter on Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Ihmisen
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Re: CO Les (First Attempt)

Postby Ihmisen » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:22 am

I really like the ideas you have here. Interesting and not overdone like a lot of them.
D2D-Looks very interesting. Some would probably say hiding outside of FOW is broken, but it should balance out. Might add a MP cost to forest/reef to balance a bit more as hiding is very powerful at times, especially being one of the biggest aspects of FOW. Needs a bigger counter.
COP-Not too bad if it's only one turn except for how invincible it makes him, esp. to indirects. Maybe another star or two.
SCOP1-Ridiculously broken. 3 units would be a lot for this. If this goes off early game, it's basically over. Actually pretty much anywhere this is game-breaking.
SCOP2-Interesting, though could be broken against, say, Hawke, or worse yet, Eagle. The first one seems better if you can chisel down. This one is a tad less workable though it could pass as-is.
Honestly I really like this CCO, I just think it needs to be fixed up a bit.

Britzter

Re: CO Les (First Attempt)

Postby Britzter » Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:16 pm

Ihmisen wrote:I really like the ideas you have here. Interesting and not overdone like a lot of them.
D2D-Looks very interesting. Some would probably say hiding outside of FOW is broken, but it should balance out. Might add a MP cost to forest/reef to balance a bit more as hiding is very powerful at times, especially being one of the biggest aspects of FOW. Needs a bigger counter.
COP-Not too bad if it's only one turn except for how invincible it makes him, esp. to indirects. Maybe another star or two.
SCOP1-Ridiculously broken. 3 units would be a lot for this. If this goes off early game, it's basically over. Actually pretty much anywhere this is game-breaking.
SCOP2-Interesting, though could be broken against, say, Hawke, or worse yet, Eagle. The first one seems better if you can chisel down. This one is a tad less workable though it could pass as-is.
Honestly I really like this CCO, I just think it needs to be fixed up a bit.


Thanks for this. I would like to go ahead and explain that I thought 90% defence as a countering skill would be balanced because it means his units can be cleared more easily, and as I had read in the "design a CO" section defence is more crippling than offence.

The COP does only last for a day, yes. Plus, Grit needs a suitable counter in a non-FOW atmosphere.

SCOP1 - I did consider only controlling 3 units based on greatest damage potential. But I think that you think this "diamond" of enemy troops can attack each other, truth is they can all be controled by Les but units under Les's control can't attack each other. Les may only attack enemy units which he has no control over.

SCOP2 - The reason why I chose a low number of stars (compared to some classes) is because Les is very weak in a combat sense. Even if he could steal Eagle's Lightening Strike ability he would be doing it with a 90/90 stat (instead of Eagles 100/110). Even if Les steals Kanbei's SCOP it'll increase his offence and defence by 30% each so he'll have a 120/120 stat, which is still less than Kanbei's D2D in AW2 (130/130).

I will definately consider the controlling 3 units idea. But if it were to be apparent then I would need to change the CO Bar to look like this: :smallstar: :smallstar: :smallstar: :bigstar: :bigstar: which isn't allowed (apparently).

Also, what do you think about both Les's COP and SCOP awarding the 10% defence boost (90/100)?

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Ihmisen
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Re: CO Les (First Attempt)

Postby Ihmisen » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:00 pm

While 90 defense is somewhat crippling(not too much. If I'm doing my calculations correctly, it mostly means some luck shots are sure-fire for them), having a lot of units be invisible makes them pretty unbeatable. The problem with Grit is his artillery can be a step back and still hit the enemy from out of range. Les's artillery could just hide in the bushed behind a meatwall. And if the wall is broken, the enemy will have to run something in to make it visible. That would probably cover up the only open side. Then Les's mechs or other artilery clean it up. Basically having to find something before it can be attacked cheapens the unit very extremely and 90/90 isn't that much of a hamper when it doesn't need to defend. And a wall wouldn't lose too much with 90 defense, except I think one OHKO, which isn't to a very common unit anyway.

COP-Grit is broken. Making a counter is likely to also be broken. Kanbei's SCOP is broken because it makes him basically invincible(high defense). Les's would get about as close for only two stars. Also, with a xxXXX meter, this could be used twice in a row.

SCOP1-Say the diamond picks up 5 units(because odds are the units won't be lined up perfectly) Now going by cost, most of these will probably be within range of other enemy units. You can ram mechs into neotanks or md tanks to do damage and suicide the units. You can run the whole line back and stop a round of reinforcements. Played right, it basically be a 10-unit crippling. In a chokepoint, it'd be retreating entirely. Also, does opponent get control back on their turn, or does the control stay for the whole day?

SCOP2-Eagle is still 2 turns for half price. It could be gotten in the early game for a capture boost. A massive one since it'd stop enemy advance entirely cheaply. Hawke and Drake also are a matter to deal with. Pretty much any nonunit specific powers are going to be very cheap.

10% defense is pretty much required.

Britzter

Re: CO Les (First Attempt)

Postby Britzter » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:54 pm

Ihmisen wrote:While 90 defense is somewhat crippling(not too much. If I'm doing my calculations correctly, it mostly means some luck shots are sure-fire for them), having a lot of units be invisible makes them pretty unbeatable. The problem with Grit is his artillery can be a step back and still hit the enemy from out of range. Les's artillery could just hide in the bushed behind a meatwall. And if the wall is broken, the enemy will have to run something in to make it visible. That would probably cover up the only open side. Then Les's mechs or other artilery clean it up. Basically having to find something before it can be attacked cheapens the unit very extremely and 90/90 isn't that much of a hamper when it doesn't need to defend. And a wall wouldn't lose too much with 90 defense, except I think one OHKO, which isn't to a very common unit anyway.

SCOP1-Say the diamond picks up 5 units(because odds are the units won't be lined up perfectly) Now going by cost, most of these will probably be within range of other enemy units. You can ram mechs into neotanks or md tanks to do damage and suicide the units. You can run the whole line back and stop a round of reinforcements. Played right, it basically be a 10-unit crippling. In a chokepoint, it'd be retreating entirely. Also, does opponent get control back on their turn, or does the control stay for the whole day?



Mmmm, I mostly meant that the problem with Grit is he CAN hit the enemy out of range to strike his own long range. Les's invisablity won't give Grit much to shoot at (unless Grit can get next to them) and so Les can move forawrd and be ready to attack on his next turn.

Though that is a good point that Les can use his "hidding" ability to exploit a small gap with forests with lots of artilery. Since forests offer a 2 star defence do you think an 80% defence is in order? I'm relucant for this as I'd like Les to have some use on a map which is sparsely populated by Forests (although not much).

Les is made to use tactics to counter the more powerful COs with above average fire power such as Kanbei, Max, Hawke ect. Instead of taking them down with brute force he has to rely onstealth, long range and more powerful units to strike and destroy. The 90% defence is so that power COs with 110, 120 and 130% offence can rip through his units in 1 hit because in forests Les has only 110% defence.

Hmmm... Thinking about it... Les could have 80% defence if he also had an extra star of defence on All terrains appart from Roads & Forests. This way it rewards the player for playing Les as he should and leaves Les severely open on "open" terrain.

But meh... that sounds too complex.

Also... SCOP does return control of enemy units in his defensive phase.

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Ihmisen
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Re: CO Les (First Attempt)

Postby Ihmisen » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:28 am

I was comparing to Grit because he's considered broken and Les is for the same reason.

80 defense might be needed just to balance the stealth.

I see what you're doing, but if Les is countering Kanbei and Grit, he's probably broken, which is :('d upon.

He's so overpowered you don't need to worry about being underpowered yet.

Okay, good for the SCOP, though still, taking out a big chunk of the enemy army with their own units(so yours still have full force) is pretty radical.

Britzter

Re: CO Les (First Attempt)

Postby Britzter » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:54 am

Ihmisen wrote:I was comparing to Grit because he's considered broken and Les is for the same reason.

80 defense might be needed just to balance the stealth.

I see what you're doing, but if Les is countering Kanbei and Grit, he's probably broken, which is :('d upon.

He's so overpowered you don't need to worry about being underpowered yet.

Okay, good for the SCOP, though still, taking out a big chunk of the enemy army with their own units(so yours still have full force) is pretty radical.


Hmmmm Ok how about:

:skill:
Able to hide in Forests and Reefs when FOW is not present, -1 enemy vision range in FOW, Subs at 120/100.
Stats at 90/80. (Or 100/80? Because Power COs such as Kanbei and Max will just decimate units at 80% defence, so at least Les's counter attack will wear units out more quickly when trying to defend.)

New Power Bar :smallstar: :smallstar: :smallstar: :bigstar: :bigstar: :bigstar: :bigstar:

:power: Cloak and Dagger
Submerged/Hidden effect for all units for one turn, units can be revealed if an enemy unit is along side them.

:super: Double Agent:
Allows Les to move enemy units, in the diamond, (you can't tell them to fire) and the enemy is unable to counter attack your own units.

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deemo
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Re: CO Les (First Attempt)

Postby deemo » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:07 am

countering a broken CO =/=broken, derp.

co looks kinda meh. cop is broken, scop 1 is broken, and scop 2 is interesting but probably not worth it. 8 stars means you can't even at least grab their scop at a lower price, most scops are below 8 actually, so unless you're fighting sturm or something, then it's not worth it. besides, most co's are tailored to fit their d2d to their scop in some way, so to benefit the most you'll have to specialize a part of your army (e.g. against grit, you would make more artillery) but they would still beat you in that area.

fixing suggestions: move cop to scop, make new cop, and d2d is kinda shaky (but probably decent with lowered stats)

Britzter

Re: CO Les (First Attempt)

Postby Britzter » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:27 am

deemo wrote:countering a broken CO =/=broken, derp.

co looks kinda meh. cop is broken, scop 1 is broken, and scop 2 is interesting but probably not worth it. 8 stars means you can't even at least grab their scop at a lower price, most scops are below 8 actually, so unless you're fighting sturm or something, then it's not worth it. besides, most co's are tailored to fit their d2d to their scop in some way, so to benefit the most you'll have to specialize a part of your army (e.g. against grit, you would make more artillery) but they would still beat you in that area.

fixing suggestions: move cop to scop, make new cop, and d2d is kinda shaky (but probably decent with lowered stats)


May I ask why COP is broken? I know this sounds very over powered and that this is an arrogant question but this is how I thought of it:
All units become hidden and have the choice to attack or simply move forward. If they attack they reveal themselves and won't do a whole lot of damage leaving themselves to be attacked in their defensive phase, if they move forward without attacking then they can be better prepared and penetrate an artillery/ rocket ridden defence. It may seem very powerful, but since the units are weak they can't really do a whole lot of damage (It's a bit like Sonja's Enhanced Vision where there's an overall beneficial, but not much pushing power).

You're quite right SCOP1 is quite broken, did you see the newer version which I'd written just before your post?
Also, if SCOP2 was lowered to 7 Stars then it would be at the "average" amount of stars, so would it be considerable? (Less than Eagle, Hawke, Sturm, Sami but more than Andy, Colin, Sensei ect.).

Also for lowered stats I'm trying to think of something that would make sense but not make it so that Les won't be too useless on a map with little defensive cover. And I've had a few thoughts in the previous posts, would would you go for?

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deemo
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Re: CO Les (First Attempt)

Postby deemo » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:16 am

Britzter wrote:
May I ask why COP is broken? I know this sounds very over powered and that this is an arrogant question but this is how I thought of it:
All units become hidden and have the choice to attack or simply move forward. If they attack they reveal themselves and won't do a whole lot of damage leaving themselves to be attacked in their defensive phase, if they move forward without attacking then they can be better prepared and penetrate an artillery/ rocket ridden defence. It may seem very powerful, but since the units are weak they can't really do a whole lot of damage (It's a bit like Sonja's Enhanced Vision where there's an overall beneficial, but not much pushing power).

You're quite right SCOP1 is quite broken, did you see the newer version which I'd written just before your post?
Also, if SCOP2 was lowered to 7 Stars then it would be at the "average" amount of stars, so would it be considerable? (Less than Eagle, Hawke, Sturm, Sami but more than Andy, Colin, Sensei ect.).

Also for lowered stats I'm trying to think of something that would make sense but not make it so that Les won't be too useless on a map with little defensive cover. And I've had a few thoughts in the previous posts, would would you go for?


cop is broken because hiding all units is broken period. advance/DS fog mechanics are horrible. activate cop, push wall of units forward. opponent will not be able to tell what units are where and can be put in a very bad position. basically, the problem is that in all games pre-DoR, you have to be next to a hidden opponent to reveal them. sure, that's all fine and dandy, but when you combine it with a cop that does it to all your units, it becomes overpowered. let me give you an example

xx
xx
xx
xx

okay, pretend these are your units. to reveal one, your opponent has to be next to one. but the problem is that for the ones in the middle, you can't reveal them at the same time and attack them unless you either destroy the ones on the side or attack them with artillery. heck, if the opponent doesn't have indirects in the right place, he could just put artillery as the middle 4 x's. or any combination, as the opponent will not know what formation the units will take and will not want to take a chance in most cases. it simply allows this co to bumrush like hell and his opponent won't know what's up. this isn't even counting if the poor guy gets trap!'d. something like this for 3 stars is just what.

also second version of the cop is still broken. i do not like the option of controlling enemy units simply because it has huge balance issues. and sure 7 stars for the other one is fine, but the point is what reason would there be to use the opponent's scop? i'd just rather double cop lolololol

Britzter

Re: CO Les (First Attempt)

Postby Britzter » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:32 am

deemo wrote:cop is broken because hiding all units is broken period. advance/DS fog mechanics are horrible. activate cop, push wall of units forward. opponent will not be able to tell what units are where and can be put in a very bad position. basically, the problem is that in all games pre-DoR, you have to be next to a hidden opponent to reveal them. sure, that's all fine and dandy, but when you combine it with a cop that does it to all your units, it becomes overpowered. let me give you an example


Ah, gotcha right.
So what if I switched the SCOP(2) and COP around?
New power bar.

:smallstar: :smallstar: :bigstar: :bigstar: :bigstar:

And the new COP "Identity theft" doesn't steal the enemy CO's power or super power, but their current stat? So either Les can inherit the enemy CO's D2D abilities (only positives) OR if the enemy CO has used a power or super power recently Les can inherit that ability?

Examples:
Enemy CO is Grit, Les's COP used: Les has 20% higher offence with indirects and +1 range.
Enemy CO is Grit after he used his SCOP, Les's COP used: Les has 60% higher offence with indirects and +3 range.
Enemy CO is Olaf after he used his SCOP, Les's COP used: Les is unaffected by Snow movement penalties (and does NOT deal 2HP damage to all enemy units).
Last edited by Britzter on Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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deemo
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Re: CO Les (First Attempt)

Postby deemo » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:37 am

Britzter wrote:Ah, gotcha right.
So what if I switched the SCOP(2) and COP around?
New power bar.

:smallstar: :smallstar: :bigstar: :bigstar: :bigstar:

And the new COP "Identity theft" doesn't steal the enemy CO's power or super power, but their current stat? So either Les can inherit the enemy CO's D2D abilities OR if the enemy CO has used a power or super power recently Les can inherit that ability?

two stars seems kinda cheap for a cop of that caliber, but i suppose it's fine if the power stealing only works if they used the power the turn before.

and i'm not an expert in this but i still think 5 stars is too cheap for quasi-invisible units

Britzter

Re: CO Les (First Attempt)

Postby Britzter » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:43 am

deemo wrote:two stars seems kinda cheap for a cop of that caliber, but i suppose it's fine if the power stealing only works if they used the power the turn before.

and i'm not an expert in this but i still think 5 stars is too cheap for quasi-invisible units


Even if the invisibility only lasts a Day? Also what was your opinion on the D2D disadvantage stats?
Which works best:
90/90
100/80
90/80 (+1 terrain defence star on currently starred terrain (no roads)).

Or any more suggestions?

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Ihmisen
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Re: CO Les (First Attempt)

Postby Ihmisen » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:15 am

Making the COP into the SCOP(more expensive) greatly reduces it's power as that prevents it from being used very often. Which...is probably a needed balance.

90/90 should be down enough, maybe give the opponent a luck advantage.


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