CCO: Shallow

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JSlayerXero

Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by JSlayerXero » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:19 am

Edit: The fuel and ammo was removed at St3rn's request, however, as annoying as it would be to code, it was part of what made Shallow, Shallow. Without it I ended up having to replace it with something, possibly even broken.
Last edited by JSlayerXero on Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

JSlayerXero

Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by JSlayerXero » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:41 am

:skill:
-Units gain 10% attack power when using ammo.
-Units occasionally don't consume ammo, but still gain the benefit. (There's about a 5% chance)

CO Power Meter: :smallstar: :smallstar: :smallstar: :smallstar: :bigstar: :bigstar: :bigstar: :bigstar:

If this is under/over-priced, please tell me.

:power: Stagger
-Units are resupplied.
-Units use up to 3 ammo for their next ammo consuming shot in order to use a 1.x multiplier per round used. (Note: Same formula as Lash's boosts)
-Default boost (110/110)

:super: Power Ammo
-Units are resupplied.
-Units use up to 3 ammo for their next ammo consuming shot in order to use a 1.(2x) multiplier per round used. (Note: Same formula/concept as Lash's boosts)
-Units are 120/110 (Defaults accounted for)


Hmm, new concept. Now we have an ammo master. This is going to be hard to tie into his Bio, and it might need to be re-written entirely, but I'll save that for another time. His current setup still shafts units without an ammo limit. But seeing as those are Infantry, which are only really good as meat-shields, and recons, which are only good against infantry, yeah. Play those as you would Andy.
Last edited by JSlayerXero on Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:10 am, edited 22 times in total.

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HPD
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Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by HPD » Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:55 am

That's going to be broken as crap.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

JSlayerXero

Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by JSlayerXero » Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:02 am

Edit: Irrelevant. Still though, Lord have mercy on your soul if you try to kill Colin on a 9500 funds map with him having the advantage
Last edited by JSlayerXero on Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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HPD
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Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by HPD » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:50 am

It's basically that this CO can spam more infantry than other COs on a daily basis. That means he gets a number advantage in units, which is very, very powerful.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

JSlayerXero

Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by JSlayerXero » Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:44 am

Well, I've got to do something, without the regular resupply, Shallow is just a Hachi clone. And since that's currently gone... (I'd point fingers, but....)

Edit: Shallow has seriously gone through at least 4 concepts at this point.

Said concepts include:
Defense/Offense trading
Regular resupply master
City building at increased cost.
Fuel/Ammo master
Ammo master (current)
Last edited by JSlayerXero on Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

JSlayerXero

Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by JSlayerXero » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:34 am

Edit: Like many other posts, useless info.
Last edited by JSlayerXero on Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

JSlayerXero

Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by JSlayerXero » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:45 am

Any comments on Shallow's current setup? (Every week it's a new concept, I swear)

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DTaeKim
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Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by DTaeKim » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:52 am

105/100? Seriously? With a D2D similar to Eagle without the bonus, I find him boring.
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JSlayerXero

Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by JSlayerXero » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:27 pm

His D2D is meant to be subtle. And yeah, it is similar to Eagle, but the main issue is the CO concept. Now that he's a fuel and ammo master, I had to do something related. Also, since his SCOP fills ammo completely his arties get a really powerful single shot. 130 x 1.9 = 247 for one shot. His specialty shows more in his powers, which roll around quite a bit. Since fuel and ammo is the theme, resupply is a given. Another note, 105 allows for one-shot on a pipe seam. I could make him 110 if you want though. Shallow is more meant to be interesting, seeing as how fuel and ammo don't really get put into play with the exception of dived subs and planes, or for ammo it's just for when it runs out..

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Crystal Guard 292
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Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by Crystal Guard 292 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:13 am

There's subtle, and there's unnoticeable...
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JSlayerXero

Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by JSlayerXero » Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:38 am

He's 110/100 D2D now. Can't think of anything I can add though.

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DTaeKim
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Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by DTaeKim » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:37 am

JSlayerXero wrote::skill:
-Units are 110/100.
-Aerial units consume 2 less fuel daily.
-Fuel consumed is 1 regardless of terrain. (Movement is not one, it still take 3 points of movement for tires to go through woods. But it only costs one unit of fuel.)
I don't think you understand what you are creating here. You have Hawke's D2D, Eagle's fuel reduction, and something added for the sake of it. Fuel is a weak theme of this CCO and if he has nothing but bonuses, his powers should act as a weakness in some regard.
JSlayerXero wrote:CO Power Meter: :smallstar: :smallstar:

If this is under/over-priced, please tell me.

:power: Fuel Efficiency
-No fuel is consumed for one turn.
-Units are resupplied.
-Default boost (120/110)
This is a terrible COP. The only unit in the game that consumes enough fuel to be an issue is the Sub, and no one uses naval units. Every other unit is never going to run out of ammo unless the battle lasts a very long time. There is a reason the resupply aspect of Jess' powers is the icing on top. For all intents and purposes, this CO has no COP.
JSlayerXero wrote:CO Power Meter: :smallstar: :smallstar: :bigstar: :bigstar: :bigstar:

:super: Power Ammo
-All ammo is consumed to use a 1.x multiplier. (Same concept as Lash's bonus but with ammo instead of terrain)
-Units are resupplied.
-Units are 130/110 (Defaults accounted for)
Your Infantry and Recon get no bonus. Your ranged units and direct units have the potential to hit are 160/110 and 190/110 respectively (with exceptions, like the Mech and Sub). Granted, by the time this happens, you can probably expect at least some ammo to be consumed, so I will assume 140/110 and 170/110. Either way, for five stars, that's nuts. The only CO who can compare to this is Kanbei with his Samurai Spirit, but he's broken. Max is probably the next best comparison, but he has -1 indirect range and only affects his direct units. You're looking at a under-priced SCOP and a CO with no weaknesses.
JSlayerXero wrote:Hmm, new concept. Now we have a fuel and ammo master.
Fuel is a gimmick that is difficult to work with. I actually think your SCOP has some potential, but his D2D is inconsistent with the ammo theme. You're going to have to try harder to tie his theme overall.
What can change the nature of a man?

JSlayerXero

Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by JSlayerXero » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:39 am

His SCOP works the way Lash does, or a 120% would be multiplied into 168% on mountains. And yes, upon using fuel, I realized the issue. His D2D firepower WAS the tie-in with ammo. If it wasn't blatant enough then sorry. But that WAS what I was trying to make it as. It would take awhile, but I could figure out some other way of incorporating it. Also, want me to make him the purely ammo master? His fuel could simply be resupply.
DTaeKim wrote:Your Infantry and Recon get no bonus. Your ranged units and direct units have the potential to hit are 160/110 and 190/110 respectively(with exceptions, like the Mech and Sub). Granted, by the time this happens, you can probably expect at least some ammo to be consumed, so I will assume 140/110 and 170/110. Either way, for five stars, that's nuts. The only CO who can compare to this is Kanbei with his Samurai Spirit, but he's broken. Max is probably the next best comparison, but he has -1 indirect range and only affects his direct units. You're looking at a under-priced SCOP and a CO with no weaknesses.
Here's the thing, he resupplies ON THAT TURN, and units get the benefit of the next shot. Plus, he'll be with no ammo after he makes his move unless he has APCs on the front-lines.

DTaeKim wrote:I don't think you understand what you are creating here. You have Hawke's D2D, Eagle's fuel reduction, and something added for the sake of it.
I OWN AW2, I KNOW I was giving him Hawke's D2D and Eagles fuel reduction. But I was at a lack of ideas at the time.

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DTaeKim
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Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by DTaeKim » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:31 am

JSlayerXero wrote:His SCOP works the way Lash does, or a 120% would be multiplied into 168% on mountains. And yes, upon using fuel, I realized the issue. His D2D firepower WAS the tie-in with ammo. If it wasn't blatant enough then sorry. But that WAS what I was trying to make it as. It would take awhile, but I could figure out some other way of incorporating it. Also, want me to make him the purely ammo master? His fuel could simply be resupply.
Lash's SCOP is a straight 10% bonus per terrain star. Lash's units on mountains during her SCOP is 180/190 (100% + 8*10%). I'm not going to dictate his theme; I only comment on the raw stats. I let someone else handle creativity, though I might frown upon certain themes.
JSlayerXero wrote:Here's the thing, he resupplies ON THAT TURN, and units get the benefit of the next shot. Plus, he'll be with no ammo after he makes his move unless he has APCs on the front-lines.
It wasn't clear in the SCOP description, where the previous version indicated otherwise. I feel you're better off with my interpretation, because no one is going to want to be stuck without ammo for the SCOP, especially since the use of APCs is scarce.
JSlayerXero wrote:I OWN AW2, I KNOW I was giving him Hawke's D2D and Eagles fuel reduction. But I was at a lack of ideas at the time.
I still don't like your D2D. Go with the ammo theme.
What can change the nature of a man?

JSlayerXero

Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by JSlayerXero » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:17 am

Okay, gimme a few to do tweaking (I tend to post these BEFORE tweaking just so you know)

Also, I think Lash DOES doe that, it might be Duals Strike I'm thinking of, I could be wrong though, I saw that somewhere about one of the AW games.

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Crystal Guard 292
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Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by Crystal Guard 292 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:28 am

I would trust DTK on mechanics, Xero. =P
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"It's game storage...THAT'LL TOTALLY PUNCH YOUR BALLS OFF! EXTREEEEEME!" -Airrider
"Well, he lives in Aussie land, where up is down and hamburgers eat people." -Familyguyman
"I'll get to it tomorrow." -Heropsychodreamer01

JSlayerXero

Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by JSlayerXero » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:42 pm

Believe me, I'm sure he's right. But I DID see that somewhere, which is my point.

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Xenesis
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Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by Xenesis » Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:31 pm

JSlayerXero wrote:Also, I think Lash DOES doe that, it might be Duals Strike I'm thinking of, I could be wrong though, I saw that somewhere about one of the AW games.
Actually that is AW2 Lash. The terrain boost multiplies the unit's base firepower. However, Lash ALWAYS has 100% firepower for all units so she effectively gets +10% per terrain star.

If Lash (in AW2) got 110/110 base stats on her Powers she'd end up with (110 * 1.n) firepower, where n is terrain stars. But that's mostly just a programming quirk more than anything.

So for all intents and purposes DTK is correct for lash.
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JSlayerXero

Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by JSlayerXero » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:07 am

I knew it! And yes, I know Lash has 100% firepower, as there is no firepower boost in vanilla. (Darn you Lash and your Sinking Feeling HC) But the thing is, Shallow does get a firepower bonus, which is what I was trying to get at. It's the same formula, just he ACTUALLY has units that aren't 100% firepower. Anywho, he's been tweaked a bit. I'm going to refrain from editing the main post as writing new quotes is getting to me.

JSlayerXero

Re: One of my CCO Ideas

Post by JSlayerXero » Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:20 pm

Well hey, I'm back here again... Didn't see that coming. I (once again) decided to scrap my previous concept and use a new one. However, this one will most likely be easier to work with that my other one. Now he's oriented in defense. Criticism would be much appreciated.

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DieselPheonix

Post by DieselPheonix » Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:56 pm

What made you come back, after all this time?

JSXero

Re: CCO: Shallow

Post by JSXero » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:11 am

Ah shoot I forgot to edit his COP Bar. I knew I was forgetting something -_-
DieselPheonix wrote:
> What made you come back, after all this time?
A couple of tings, one was that somewhere in the back of my mind the fact that I never properly stopped working Shallow still bugged me. Second, I had a story in mind that involves different users from various forums. This was one of two forums I've ever actively been on, I think. Plus, there's a few other CCO ideas I had that I never published. Thinking about this place also inspired me to ask the question "What if Infantry and Mechs were indirect units?" I'm probably going to make that a CCO idea at some point.

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DieselPheonix

Post by DieselPheonix » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:07 am

The AW community has long since moved on; it may be best for you to do the same.

JSlayerXero

Re: CCO: Shallow

Post by JSlayerXero » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:13 am

Perhaps. I still think it would be interesting to see a story about multiple forums. This happened to be one of the forums I had in mind for that story. Whether I post part of it on here and part of it on another forum or all on that forums I don't know yet. If nothing else though I can just have a random AW CCO in the story for no apparent reason and just say it's from this site :P

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Re: CCO: Shallow

Post by GreenEarth » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:12 am

I like the idea of your CCO, I really do. I feel like games with him would be quite long and drawn out and gives opponents a bit of fear since his counter attacks are stronger. I like the D2D.

Shallow's COP essentially gives you +10%/+10%, slightly increased counter attack power, and resupplies you, for 3 stars. If you're playing Xen's balance hack, then it gives you +10% defense, more counter attack power and resupplies you for the same price. It also takes away your movement. It seems quite underpowered. For reference, Jess gains +20% offense and 1 movement with resupply for the same price. Essentially, you're trading 10 (or 20) offense and 1 movement for +10% defense and negative 1 movement. I feel the power needs to be changed. How? I don't know. Yeah that doesn't help at all, I just thought I'd give you my two cents.

The Super Power seems a bit stronger, but still too expensive. -2 movement means your mechs can't move at all. The double counter attack strength is nice, but Sonja gets first strike for 5 stars (2 less than Shallow's SCOP), and Kanbei gets the same defense and 1.5x counter with 30% more attack than Shallow, for the same cost as this power. The fundamental problem is that anything over 160% doesn't work properly, because once you have 161% and you are on your HQ or a mountain, you're over 200% and attacks start to heal you or something. I understand what you're going for, a really strong defense with strong counter attacks to back it up. A true defender. I like the idea, but the movement penalty is too large.

JSlayerXero

Re: CCO: Shallow

Post by JSlayerXero » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:33 pm

Part of why I came up with this is that Defense in AW-AWDS is ridiculously powerful and stuff. If defense over 200% means you heal then one of these days I might actually make a CO idea around that... I already have one other idea where Mechs and Infantry are indirect units. That oughta be fun to think up. His D2D is useful, but it also does something kind of interesting. The COP bar increases by half the damage you deal and all the damage you take. By giving him a defense oriented D2D means that he takes less damage, but that also means his COP bar charges slower when taking damage. However, taking less damage means his counter attack are inherently stronger due to having more HP, and the extra counter strength means that he makes up for the charge strangeness, well, kind of. Prices are 110% because while Kanbei is 120%, he also has attack increase. For his COP, the -1 movement is a thing relate to an older version of Shallow. Gonna remove it though. The SCOP has situational invincibility as you pointed out. The thing about that is that if I recall, you need 10 HP to get full 40% defense on HQ or mountains. So a wounded unit cannot reach 200% defense under the influence of the SCOP although it can come close. I'm honestly curious if luck can still dish out damage against 200% defense or not. I don't remember if you heal above 200% defense or not. If that's true I might just make a CO idea where the COP lowers offense but lets you heal from enemy counter attacks. Anyways, change his stats before posting this.

There are other CO ideas I might type up later.

Guest

Re: CCO: Shallow

Post by Guest » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:39 pm

You don't heal at 200+ defence so much as become INVINCIBLE. To unit attack, anyways. This includes terrain defence. The damage formula doesn't address this until DoR/DC.

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HPD
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Re: CCO: Shallow

Post by HPD » Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:04 pm

The point is that any defense over 200 will cause the outcomes of the damage formula to become negative, so you'd deal negative damage. I'm not sure how the game mechanics work at that point, though. You'd have to ask Xen how the damage formula handles then. It might very well be that the actual damage is still zero, or that the whole thing starts to glitch out or something.

I actually made a CO once who could attack her own units for negative damage, healing them. I liked that idea, though you'd have to hack it to see how useful it'd really be.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Xenesis
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Re: CCO: Shallow

Post by Xenesis » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:05 am

The summary is: Depends on the AW game.

AW1, AW4 - Defence is a divisor, you'll never reach max defence in the game.
AW3 - Defence total is hardcapped at 200, which equals invincibility
AW2 - Same mechanics as AW3 but there's no cap on the defence formula. At greater than 200% defence, you'll take negative damage proportional to how much over 200% you have (Eg, 230% confers -30% damage). It is wildly buggy and will result in overHP units, until their HP loops around and causes them to spontaneously die because they've only got 0.2 HP.
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