Advance Wars Mod 2 CCO List

This board section is for creation of Custom COs under the Advance system. Users are encouraged to rate and comment on other's COs.
kirant

Advance Wars Mod 2 CCO List

Post by kirant » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:56 am

So...first things first: turns out, I've been off this website so long it deleted my username :)

I'll preface by saying that this is the revival of a long dead project - in grade 9 (many years ago now...closing in on 10 since anybody actually touched the stats), my friends and I, in love with AW2, decided to try to make a hack. It kind of fizzled out when none of us could hack (and looking back, none of us knew how to statistically balance characters either). This is still in the really early phases (I'm trying to balance units, COs, and maps all at the same time...so...), but I figured it'd be a good idea to start statistically balancing COs.

COs don't really have names yet - I'm probably going to go the "meaningful name" route, but until I find a better name than the names of the actual person (they were named after people we knew at the time), I'll just give them generic names.

I'll try to sort them by army they replaced since I'm going to keep the 4 factions. Keep in mind too that I'll be restricted to the Nightmare module's limitations in designing COs.

Also note that as I've got 5 projects going on right now (writing project, AW2 Modding, FE7 Modding, administrator of a hockey simulation league, and Pokemon "theory-moning"), I'll probably update rarely and take forever to answer questions/comments.

If you have any comments, I'd enjoy answering them though...when I get to it.

:os:

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:bm:


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:ge:


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:yc:
The basic concept I had for dividing Yellow Comet's COs was divisions of power. One CO controls the main army, using old tactics and wins by a slow attrition. The second represents the special forces and tactics which looks and hunts for key attack opportunities. The third is supply chains and intelligence: the key to battle is knowing more and being able to outmanoeuvre your opponents. The COs do not have the standard day-to-day strength that most COs have and are statistically average below 100/100 on a day-to-day power. However, through grit and changing the circumstances to become in their favour, they drive forward and attempt to win battles.

CO1
Hidden Text
Name: (working name)

In Game Description: The head of the Yellow Comet expeditionary force. A traditionalist commander who pursues the goals assigned relentlessly.

:hit:
:miss:

:skill:
-5% Defence (100/95)
+25% Counter Attacks (125%)

CO Power Meter: :smallstar: :smallstar: :bigstar: :bigstar: :bigstar:

:power: Assault
All units get +10% Attack (110/105 after COP boost, 135/105 when being attacked)
All indirect units get +1 range

:super: Rally Fire
All units get +20% Attack (120/105 after COP boost)
All indirect units get +1 range
All units get +15% Counter Attack and Priority Counter (so 160/105 when being attacked, with priority attack)

Theory: As mentioned above, the CO is designed as the "main general" of the army. The stats were dreamed up with mechs and artillery in mind as mechs will hurt with a 125% counter at a cheap price and artillery can abuse a 2-4 range easily. The COP is a continuous grind and the CO should attempt to use it to generate momentum while the SCOP is supposed to turn the game around and becomes the "human wave attack", storming the enemy lines.

Current thoughts: I feel the SCOP may be a little strong. 160% essentially means you go on the offensive or get a free turn to siege your opponent. I'm not sure though as this has to be considered with the fact that artillery fire will soften units up considerably. A mech with 4 HP left or so will only deal 3-4 damage itself to another infantry
CO2
Hidden Text
Name: (working name)

In Game Description: Yellow Comet's special tactics consultant. Cool and level headed no matter the situation.

:hit:
:miss:

:skill:
-10% Attack (90/100)
+10% firepower per defence star

CO Power Meter: :smallstar: :smallstar: :smallstar: :smallstar: :smallstar: (That is, COP and SCOP are available after 5 stars)

:power: Tactical Edge
All units acquire double the number of defence stars they would normally get.
1 movement cost over all terrain, regardless of weather

:super: Tactical Advantage
Units do not get firepower from defence stars this turn.
All infantry and mech units capture all buildings within one turn.

Theory: One thing Lash in AW2 taught me was that firepower from defence stars is a great ability. The intent of this CO on a day to day level is to fix that a little and to become a CO who, while not consistent, can dig in and hold an opponent off until things change in their favour. The idea of the COP/SCOP power being simultaneously available encourages flexible thinking: one gives you the chance to fight hard and win by brute force, the other gives you a chance to overturn the results entirely (the working SCOP power was actually Overhaul until I thought using tactical twice sounded more flavourful). The intent, either way, is to fight normally, then pick and choose which of your two COPs you use and take advantage of.

Current thoughts: I haven't done much with this CO yet. In tests, the CO seems to perform well (just as well as all the other COs), but I feel that the terrain ability gives a huge level of consistency issues.
CO3
Hidden Text
Name: (working name)

In Game Description: Supply and reconnaissance specialist for Yellow Comet. Eager and enthusiastic, if a bit impatient.

:hit:
:miss:

:skill:
+15% bad luck (so swings are from +10% to -15%)
+5% chance of weather change in "random" conditions (up to 10%)
+1 vision
Unit movement not impacted by weather

CO Power Meter: :smallstar: :smallstar: :bigstar: :bigstar: :bigstar: :bigstar:

:power: Chain of Command
All units are resupplied.
Piercing vision (can see into reefs and forests without having to be adjacent to them)

:super: Supply Raid
Piercing vision (can see into reefs and forests without having to be adjacent to them)
All enemy units take 2 damage and lose half their fuel

Theory: So I designed this to be a lot like having all your support teams in one: take advantage of any one of the three conditions which become effective to take advantage of...be it Fog, weather, or supplies.

Current thoughts: COP seems a bit useless for the resupply side, but a 2 star +10% defence and piercing vision boost is pretty awesome in Fog. The SCOP seems good...a bit bland on CO ability, but really fun to use I've found. Especially if you actually do leave random weather on.
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:bh:

User avatar
Satel

Re: Advance Wars Mod 2 CCO List

Post by Satel » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:36 pm

Man, many people are posting whole lists of COs in there. Anyways, since I'm passing by I might as well comment on the COs.

Your first CO... is rather bland: his D2D bonus and malus don't change much. -5% defense is only -5% after all, and counter-attack bonuses are not that useful, because they only apply to direct-attack units, and 25% isn't that much to make due for the fact that you're still attacked first. The COP is... pretty meh concerning directs, but indirects will like it. Then again, +10% firepower isn't that strong, but after all, it's a 2-star-COP. As for the SCOP, strangely the indirects will feel left out because directs become just that much stronger. It's like Sonja's SCOP on steroids, with an indirect bonus on top. It still lacks a bit of punch, but it's still very strong defensively. Overall this CO isn't that strong without his COPs, but each one has its use, and make him rather powerful. I expected more brute force though.

You second CO now... D2D seems right. I like 10% terrain firepower without any malus, but hey, most would love to have Lash lose 10% attack. I'm not enthusiastic about that COP Meter, though. Having the COP and the SCOP cost the same just breaks the point of having both. The names also... mean the same thing, and are not very imaginative. Tactical Edge is Prime Tactics, just to show how broke it is. Tactical Advantage, though, is pretty much a one-trick pony, and is more useful early than late, except for the HQ Capture. This guy is like the previous one, but with some kind of balance issues. One-turn-captures have never been my thing, especially when it happens with a 1HP infantry... do you realize how important captures are?

Let's go to the third one now... I dislike randomness, and as much as I like keeping random weather, I don't like it changing more than it should. It's more hindering than useful, and pretty much an anti-fun mechanic. The bad luck this guy gets in return hinders him probably just as much, meaning we have frustration factors on both sides of the battle. The COP is... pretty much what you'd expect from a 2-star COP: it doesn't do much, and is really only utility-based. As for the SCOP, it kinda is too strong. Two mass damage for 6 stars would already be great alone, but you add the Drake COP fuel cut (which is again more annoying than useful) and the Piercing Vision which is a FoW thing, so it's not worth this much. The only thing making this SCOP too strong is the addition of things to the mass damage that is already worth the 6 stars alone. This guys is very SCOP-centric, which kind of goes against the theory, as the thing that makes this guy so powerful is the mass damage, not the fuel control or the weather, not even the fog if it's on.

Globally this is more balanced than I make it sound. There are a few things I personally intensely dislike, but it is rather good atm. I'll be waiting for this hack to be completed if you do intend to make it. Try to drop on the IRC if you want help with it, some people will be more than happy to help you.
Joey wrote:i think i was mad at certain players and wanted to wave st3rn's success in their face at the most opportune moment, or something

st3rn fudge st3rn

kirant

Re: Advance Wars Mod 2 CCO List

Post by kirant » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:26 am

Thanks for the quick reply. I should identify that these are the first drafts after looking through what was a nearly decade old project. The imbalance back then was terrible (such strengths as +1 movement was suggested and someone's weakness was "get half funds from cities") so I'm sure it'll be an iterative process to get things to actually make sense. Just as an extreme example of what was listed, the first D2D stats reads "120/110, units can be killed by COP, SCOP, and missile damage"...so you kind of get a sense of how far out to lunch some stats I'm starting with are.

I think for my first CO, I certainly wasn't trying to make anything too devastating on a day-to-day basis. Would totally bland actually make more sense than no ability at all? It would balance out multiple issues. In the SCOP, it would prevent the stats of a counterattack from being insane and would look much cleaner as a CO. The one thing it does add is flavour in the sense that it's a CO who loves that slow "in trench" grind...casualties be damned, things will get done and mostly uses Napoleonic tactics to make it happen. As per the COPs, I felt both powered the indirects further as the directs in the SCOP are more likely used more as pawns than they are as actual attack devices because of the fact that they only become extremely effective if they are attacked first. I will admit that during the design process, the term "meat grinder" popped up in my head lots of times, so a brute force approach probably isn't what I'm looking for...more of an approach that suits the metagame more in terms of using lots of fodder and cheap indirects (though the metagame is, admittedly, more focused on infantry than mechs).

For the second CO, I just realized I screwed up the first power. I completely forgot about Lash's SCOP bar. That would explain a lot in the "dominates some games" department :lol: . As per the names,I did intend for two names with a natural similarity...should pick something without the exact meaning. I am aware of how effective 1 turn captures are. Would extending the bar further work? I mean, two strong powers is exactly what is intended with the CO...grind and take a turn or two try to and fundamentally change the situation. The powers do seem right for what I'm trying to do from my perspective, but I sense the problem is the length of the bar as, yeah, Lash's SCOP on cheap is really a bad idea.

For the final CO, I too struggle with the random weather. I didn't like reading that aspect too much. As per the fuel stealing - is that a huge problem most of the time? The only time I've personally noticed it in battles is if my aircraft are continually being hit by it (that plus Drake did that with 4 stars). SCOP is certainly more useful, but I think the starting point is probably a bigger issue if that's the case. Would a full restart be in the cards then? I mean intel and support is a hard character type to build without access to some of the more fun AWDS options (I could have utilized firepower boosts or defence star losses).

That's good though that the first person I met absolutely dislikes some of the choices. It reflects idiosyncrasies in both the poster and the responder and will certainly help drive this to the balance I'm actually looking for.

User avatar
Satel

Re: Advance Wars Mod 2 CCO List

Post by Satel » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:13 am

So... I'm gonna get straight to the points.

1- The downside of not making anything devastating is ending up with nothing strong. This is no balance issue, but bland COs lack flavour. I don't really see how the counterattack bonus adds so much flavour itself as often it is barely noticeable. If you want to prevent COP counterattacks from being OP, nerf the COP, not the D2D.

2- Lash's bar is 4-7. And her SCOP is extremely powerful, defensively at least, though it is the addition of her D2D to it that makes it so strong. I don't like giving her gimmick to a guy without having said guy be terrain-based himself, though.

3- The fuel drop isn't that much of a problem, it's not even useful, it's only reaaaaaaally annoying. I don't think a rework is necessary, but really, I would just get rid of the fuel cut, this SCOP is strong enough w/o it.
Joey wrote:i think i was mad at certain players and wanted to wave st3rn's success in their face at the most opportune moment, or something

st3rn fudge st3rn

kirant

Re: Advance Wars Mod 2 CCO List

Post by kirant » Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:46 pm

That's fair on the first CO. It is meant to encourage artillery fire instead of charging head first into units, but that little change doesn't make enough of a difference. I am tempted to move stats the other way (so something like 90/100) to discourage direct attacking and rely on softening up the front lines with artillery first. SCOP balance pretty much comes down to removing either the priority counter or counterattack boost and that isn't a real concern.

I get the point there about not stealing Lash wholesale without making it terrain focused. I'd probably need to rethink the first COP option as the highest I'd likely stick that COP is 6 or 7 stars (heck, Sami gets harder with 8 stars with a 1 turn capture). One option might to be purely terrain based then: double defence stars and lose firepower boosts on one COP, get perfect movement on the other option. Circumvents having to balance for 1 turn captures completely.

As per the fuel part, I could probably do that provided I have enough mass damage slots left by the end of it (I forget if the fuel damage is a result of calling the Tsunami event). Granted, if I go above Black Wave/Storm, Winter Assault, and Tsunami, I'm seriously don't something wrong.

User avatar
Satel

Re: Advance Wars Mod 2 CCO List

Post by Satel » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:51 am

So... concerning the first CO , if you want to encourage indirects, just go straight to the point and make him an indirect specialist. Priority counters is a direct thing, because indirects cannot counterattack. Consider this.

Lash's SCOP's selling point is that it synergizes so well with her D2D. Letting this go to waste is just... not recommendable. Also, having both COPs at the exact same price is not recommended either, because as true as it is that you have two options, either one will be preferrable 100% of the time, or you'll be stuck with an expensive COP and a SCOP that fails to make an impact... or both.

For the fuel cut removal, you can just drop on the IRC and ask. Typhoon is only one byte to change and Tsunami is only a bit more complicated for guys like Xen or Lambda.
Joey wrote:i think i was mad at certain players and wanted to wave st3rn's success in their face at the most opportune moment, or something

st3rn fudge st3rn

kirant

Re: Advance Wars Mod 2 CCO List

Post by kirant » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:00 pm

Certainly could. I'm hoping trying to find a way to encourage the "cheap and easy" unit route as well. Again, the specifics seem to be to encourage the concept of having cannon fodder in specific. That might be possible with "non-infantry direct units have lost firepower". but that feels a little close to Grit (though of course, that can be fixed with COPs being not exclusively focused on hitting harder).

I certainly don't disagree with a lot of what you said about CO2. I also don't want to get too close to Lash as a CO either. The reason, in specific, that I've been trying to create a CO like this has been the basis, which relied on having two different styled COPs, both equally useful and both with optimal uses. The other direction I could head would be to have a COP which can be used repeatedly given the SCOP bar (often shown in game with the :smallstar: :smallstar: :bigstar: :bigstar: :bigstar: :bigstar: length COPs)

Thanks for the offer on IRC. I don't typically spend a lot of time on this site (and I'm doing a lot of other projects at the moment), so I suspect I'll lurk at the best of times.

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