Brexit

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Narts
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Re: Brexit

Post by Narts » Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:47 pm

If everyone just used dogecoin none of this would be a problem

bog2

Re: Brexit

Post by bog2 » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:11 pm

[quote="Joey"]I'm not saying it's happened. I'm saying you seem to not even care about the idea. So in response to your what? Where? There's, well...

[quote]I would vote leave even if it meant sending the UK back to pre-industrial times economically.[/quote][/quote]
Now it's my time to accuse you of being a racist. ;)

Srsly how anyone can look at the EU immigration policy and not realise it's apartheid as fudge is delusional.

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Narts
Rank: jätkä on blade runner

Re: Brexit

Post by Narts » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:17 am

What exactly you even mean. People moving inside the Schengen area treated differently from people immigrating from outside the EU?

What country with actual borders doesn't do that?

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:46 am

Yes. Immigrating from France to Germany with no qualifications or job? Cool bro welcome. Immigrating from India to German with several doctorates and maybe even a job lined up? Lol GL.

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Narts
Rank: jätkä on blade runner

Re: Brexit

Post by Narts » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:18 am

So you think UK is just going to open its borders to everyone now?

I don't think you're in a place to call anyone delusional

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Kireato

Re: Brexit

Post by Kireato » Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:15 am

daisy wrote:Yes. Immigrating from France to Germany with no qualifications or job? Cool bro welcome. Immigrating from India to German with several doctorates and maybe even a job lined up? Lol GL.
So you want to reduce this to being able to immigrate from Scotland to Wales with no qualifications or job and make immigration from everywhere else in the world difficult, and you find this more ethical?

I was taken aback earlier in the topic when you claimed that borders existed for a reason. My understanding is that borders are constructed by the whims of the powerful and have fluctuated in time. The European Union is just another change and one that expands borders.
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daisy
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Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:11 am

Kireato wrote:
daisy wrote:Yes. Immigrating from France to Germany with no qualifications or job? Cool bro welcome. Immigrating from India to German with several doctorates and maybe even a job lined up? Lol GL.
So you want to reduce this to being able to immigrate from Scotland to Wales with no qualifications or job and make immigration from everywhere else in the world difficult, and you find this more ethical?

I was taken aback earlier in the topic when you claimed that borders existed for a reason. My understanding is that borders are constructed by the whims of the powerful and have fluctuated in time. The European Union is just another change and one that expands borders.
Wales and Scotland are part of a single sovereign state. Apples and oranges.

Borders are a funny one. In a sense, I agree with you in that borders are essentially just lines drawn on a map by warlords. I don't want to limit immigration from Europe - I want to make it easier for individuals from other countries to emigrate. Unfortunately, that means removing some of the free movement of people (although if the UK wants to keep free trade it will probably have to accept free movement at least partially) from Europeans, but it would no longer be an uneven playing field favouring the white European.

I would vote for something similar to the free movement within the EU on a worldwide scale, minus the lack of protectionism. That's unlikely with characters like Trump and Farage about though, and tbh I'm not sure we're really ready for that yet.
Last edited by daisy on Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dragonite
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Re: Brexit

Post by Dragonite » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:11 am

daisy wrote:Yes. Immigrating from France to Germany with no qualifications or job? Cool bro welcome. Immigrating from India to German with several doctorates and maybe even a job lined up? Lol GL.
Is that what you specifially meant with the ''apartheid'' bit?

Also, it's slighty more complicated then this. If you have no sustainable income and aren't insured properly, then you are deemed a unreasonable burden on the host state's social security.
Last edited by Dragonite on Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:13 am

Dragonite wrote:
daisy wrote:Yes. Immigrating from France to Germany with no qualifications or job? Cool bro welcome. Immigrating from India to German with several doctorates and maybe even a job lined up? Lol GL.
Is that what you specifially meant with the ''apartheid'' bit?
*headdesk*

Yes.

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Dragonite
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Re: Brexit

Post by Dragonite » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:27 am

I made a slight edit. Also, I asked you to confirm because I disagree with the notion anyway. Without the EU, people can't move freely anyway. A community of states in the geographical region of Europe made agreements to make it easier to move around. People from outside this zone(and in the case of India, half the world away), don't have this freedom. I understand why this can suck for people from India, but I don't see it as a injustice that needs to be fixed, especially if undoing the EU zone is your medicine. Granting global access to those with a degree would be better.

Total global free movement is also sort of a ideal, but as the world is now it wouldn't be realistic. Immigration would go out of control,resulting in social tension. Of course I hope it will be possible at one point in time, once the world has become stable enough, provided we don't blow it/humanity up.

ThunderWalker
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Re: Brexit

Post by ThunderWalker » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:35 am

Bog, your point is incredibly centered around your own country. If your mind is not focused on your country (and like I said, I identify myself as European first and an alien second), it is much harder to get a gripe with.

This is, because the European Union, technically, has shedded all borders, for the sake of easier trade. And to trade easily, you need to have people living abroad, in the country you intend to 'dump' whatever you intend to sell. Holidays and stuff are a lot more convenient too obviously, as well as keeping in touch with the girlfriends (or boyfriends) you acquire there, but that's just a detail. However, it's a detail that most European deal with at least a few times in their lives, unlike the other advantages of the lack of borders.

As such, most European countries do not have borders anymore, rendering your concept obsolete. Compare it to someone immigrating from New Jersey to Arizona. Or from Kyushu to Hokkaido. Or from Manaus to Sao Paulo.
Same country, but due to the distance involved there will be a different culture or even language, not too dissimilar to Europe. Yes, in the European Union, the borders dissolved much more recently than in the above examples, but for all intents and purposes, they no longer exist.
Last edited by ThunderWalker on Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Narts
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Re: Brexit

Post by Narts » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:09 am

Not all people outside Europe are non-white you know and not all Europeans citizens are white

As far as I'm aware there are no nazi doctors measuring the skulls of foreigners trying to cross borders anywhere in EU.

So I don't see where the "racism" accusation came from.

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:38 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36660133
PANIC wrote:The FTSE 100 has surged through the level it closed at last Thursday, recovering all of the ground it had lost in the wake of the Brexit vote.
8)

-----
Narts wrote:Not all people outside Europe are non-white you know and not all Europeans citizens are white

As far as I'm aware there are no nazi doctors measuring the skulls of foreigners trying to cross borders anywhere in EU.

So I don't see where the "racism" accusation came from.
no crumpets
ThunderWalker wrote:Bog, your point is incredibly nationalist.
Nationalism (n) an extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.
If your mind is not focused on your country
If you even read what I said before you wouldn't say this because you would know that my concern is mainly for other countries. My own can go to hell. (hyperbole, inb4takenoutofcontextagain)
As such, most European countries do not have borders anymore
refugee crisis do you speak it
Dragonite wrote: but as the world is now it wouldn't be realistic.
ya i said this, where is the disagreement with the rest of your post?

ThunderWalker
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Location: Netherlands

Re: Brexit

Post by ThunderWalker » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:56 pm

daisy wrote:
Nationalism (n) an extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.

If you even read what I said before you wouldn't say this because you would know that my concern is mainly for other countries. My own can go to hell. (hyperbole, inb4takenoutofcontextagain)
Then what the hell was the point of your "apartheid" comment and the comment about France>German migration and India? I mean, those are essentially the result of your mind being focused more on England/the UK than on Europe.

Not necessarily nationalist, true, but you clearly identify yourself English first.
refugee crisis do you speak it
There is a refugee crisis, yes, but that's with non-Europeans under influence of strong right-wings throughout Europe (Le Pen, Wilders, but also UKIP is amongst them). There isn't really a way you can blame the EU for this either, because without the EU the countries in southern Europe would be forced to lock the borders completely as they get overwhelmed.

This is not the first refugee crisis in Europe and it won't be the last, though it's much more visible thanks to modern media, and much easier to travel a large distance due to easier access to even simple things like a boat. And they naturally bring friction if the destination country is not capable of taking them in.

Due to larger distances traveled there's also a language barrier usually in the modern era. Not to say there were none in the past, but now it's almost always the case.
My sig is a void.

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:55 am

ThunderWalker wrote:
daisy wrote:
Nationalism (n) an extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.

If you even read what I said before you wouldn't say this because you would know that my concern is mainly for other countries. My own can go to hell. (hyperbole, inb4takenoutofcontextagain)
Then what the hell was the point of your "apartheid" comment and the comment about France>German migration and India? I mean, those are essentially the result of your mind being focused more on England/the UK than on Europe.

Not necessarily nationalist, true, but you clearly identify yourself English first.
I honestly don't know how to to reply to this. Clearly there's been a misunderstanding.

Concern over developing countries and UK immigration policy being too harsh = nationalism and god save the queen?

k den
ThunderWalker wrote:
refugee crisis do you speak it
There is a refugee crisis, yes, but that's with non-Europeans under influence of strong right-wings throughout Europe (Le Pen, Wilders, but also UKIP is amongst them).
No the refugee crisis would be a thing even if those characters didn't exist.
There isn't really a way you can blame the EU for this either
I'm not.
because without the EU the countries in southern Europe would be forced to lock the borders completely as they get overwhelmed.
They are.
This is not the first refugee crisis in Europe and it won't be the last,
:o
Due to larger distances traveled there's also a language barrier usually in the modern era.
There seems to be one in this conversation.

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Linkman
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Re: Brexit

Post by Linkman » Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:05 am

daisy wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36660133
PANIC wrote:The FTSE 100 has surged through the level it closed at last Thursday, recovering all of the ground it had lost in the wake of the Brexit vote.
8)

-----
Same gosh darned article:
However Joe Rundle, head of trading at ETX Capital, warned reality was likely to bite soon.

"What we're seeing in the FTSE is hope in Britain being able to ride it out by remaining part of the single market. This looks like wishful thinking."

The FTSE 250 - which contains more UK-focused companies - closed 3.2% higher on Wednesday, but still remains more than 7% below its pre-Brexit level.
Brexit: Siemens will be fine. Vodafone will be fine. Barclays will be fine. The British worker and small business owner will take a hit.
"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
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daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:08 am

Linkman wrote:Joe Rundle, head of trading at ETX Capital,
Totally no vested interests at all. Nope. No sir. Nothing. Completely balanced. Trustworthy as all hell.

Why are people suddenly taking everything seriously from the same people who caused 2008?

The fact that the FTSE 100 has recovered completely and the 250 has recovered almost half since last week shows how much the panic camp are, well... panicking for no reason.

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Linkman
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Re: Brexit

Post by Linkman » Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:14 am

I would believe anyone, including Donald Trump, if they said something coherent, that is consistent with my knowledge, reasoning, and fit all the evidence I am aware of.

Nobody really knows for sure what the hell will happen, but it's silly to disregard anyone that's working for a corporation, or to blindly believe anyone that isn't.
"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
"I can't believe I'm the only person who voted Stallone. His appeal lies in watching is movies again and again just to hear what the hell he's talking about." - Kilteh

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Bonesy
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Re: Brexit

Post by Bonesy » Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:14 am

shrekxit

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Dragonite
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Re: Brexit

Post by Dragonite » Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:41 am

Bog's right about him not being nationalist though, Thunderwalker. Nothing he said matches the definition of it, and he has disliked appealing to nationalistic sentiments for years. It wouldn't surprise me if all of WWN's active members disliked the notion, so it's no use to throw it at each other.

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:19 am

Dragonite wrote:Bog's right about him not being nationalist though, Thunderwalker. Nothing he said matches the definition of it, and he has disliked appealing to nationalistic sentiments for years. It wouldn't surprise me if all of WWN's active members disliked the notion, so it's no use to throw it at each other.
This. Nationalism is freaking poison to me. As Einstein said, it is an "infantile disease and the measles of mankind." If you take pride in your country of birth (AKA, the achievements of others) then you probably haven't achieved a whole lot with your life and are probably compensating for something.

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Joey

Re: Brexit

Post by Joey » Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:40 am

Turkey can also GTFO. We are effectively in a political union with Turkey. Lol.
just gonna point out that this is still a dumb thing to say
"Unakau has nicked off. And there was much rejoicing."
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daisy
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Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:07 pm

10/10 contribution

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Bonesy
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Re: Brexit

Post by Bonesy » Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:37 pm

turkey is delicious bbqed

ThunderWalker
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Re: Brexit

Post by ThunderWalker » Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:00 pm

daisy wrote: I honestly don't know how to to reply to this. Clearly there's been a misunderstanding.

Concern over developing countries and UK immigration policy being too harsh = nationalism and god save the queen?

k den
There indeed is a misunderstanding. I'm saying that you clearly identify yourself as English first (even if just subconsciously). Not British, if I remember correctly what you said about Scotland, nor European (in which case you would have voted Remain without even thinking about it).

Does that make you a nationalist? No. Sure, nationalists do this as well, but the other way around is not strictly true. You do not have to be a nationalist to identifiy yourself as *insert native country here* as I think an overwhelming majority of humans does that.
Some identify themselves differently (city, province/state on smaller scales, and continent (mostly for Europeans) or a World Citizen or a total stranger (alien) on larger scales), but I think these groups combined overall are a minority except in a few European cities.

And your concern over developing countries is completely irrelevant to whatever you identify yourself as. Even nationalists can do this actually, especially those of the 2nd kind.

(well, you have the first kind, if you are a member of a country and want to rise it to greatness no matter the means, like Germany in the 1920s and especially 1930s and the one discussed in this thread recently. We can all agree that one is really toxic and should gtfo. But there is another shape nationalism can be in; a country or a part thereof that just wants to be independent (like Scotland). Some of these movements in the 2nd category of nationalists are fairly large and others are smaller, but quite a few exist especially in Europe. The only real way these are poisonous is if they can keep festering and the concerns they have (usually the roots of the nationalism movement) are not properly adressed... which commonly is the case - I think the UK did actually quite well with Scotland, at least until the EU referendum).


No the refugee crisis would be a thing even if those characters didn't exist.
True but it would be much easier to solve it due to less political opposition.
My sig is a void.

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Joey

Re: Brexit

Post by Joey » Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:03 pm

"your use of the word is not in the dictionary and is therefore inaccurate! the dictionary keeps up with the fluid nature of political science lingo, after all"
"Unakau has nicked off. And there was much rejoicing."
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Dragonite
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Re: Brexit

Post by Dragonite » Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:25 pm

My textbook calls nationalism the desire to gain independence for your perceived nation, take control of your own destiny etc. It's very much linked to the twentieth century, and it also tends to appeal to emotions. A nation is not the same as a state. The state is the real formal country that we call the UK, which has objective power. The nation is naturally a more subjective concept, and a can of worms I might add. It's also used in severe cases of national pride, but as far as I'm aware nationalism doesn't exactly mean that. National pride is just what usually drives people to perceive themselves to be part of a nation to begin with(again, a nation is a rather slippery concept), to the point the state might try to boost it in order to strengthen itself.

What causes this resurgence of racism in the UK is exactly this. British people feel that all immigrants/people or other cultures have no right to have influence/jobs in the UK because they feel they aren't true members of the British nation, and the EU is a oppressive institute which forces their power to determine this on their own away. Bog earlier targeted something else entirely, the double standard of free movement in the EU which is relatively easy, and the difficulty of getting into the UK if you're not a EU citizen.

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:05 pm

Okay at this point I have literally no idea what TW is talking about or why he is bringing up certain things that have zero relevance to the conversation. And he's literally making things up about my political positions... (Seriously, get lost with that.) Is the Dutch media calling all Brexiters nationalists or something?

I'm done unless someone has something intelligent to say.

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Dragonite
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Re: Brexit

Post by Dragonite » Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:54 pm

It does get some coverage, although good quality news clarifies which specific groups and for what reasons.
The UK has a quirky and stubborn reputation as far as EU politics go, so I guess he based it on that. I've had some trouble understanding his last explanation as well.

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Linkman
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Re: Brexit

Post by Linkman » Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:57 pm

Image
"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
"I can't believe I'm the only person who voted Stallone. His appeal lies in watching is movies again and again just to hear what the hell he's talking about." - Kilteh

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:21 am

That comic thinks the leave campaign is the same as UKIP's campaign. They're different entities - one's a cross-party campaign and one is a poster for an individual political party who likes to pretend it's the official leave campaign.

If the UK is worse than the present #5 in the world in terms of GDP come July 1st 2018 I will dye my hair pink. Quote me on this.

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Sat Jul 02, 2016 3:47 am

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... r-markets/
FTSE 100 enjoys biggest weekly rise since 2011; up 3% since Brexit vote
Pound edges higher despite rate cut prospects
British government bond yields hit record low
European bourses extend post-Brexit rally
8)

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hawkesnightmare
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Re: Brexit

Post by hawkesnightmare » Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:49 am

daisy wrote:That comic thinks the leave campaign is the same as UKIP's campaign. They're different entities - one's a cross-party campaign and one is a poster for an individual political party who likes to pretend it's the official leave campaign.

If the UK is worse than the present #5 in the world in terms of GDP come July 1st 2018 I will dye my hair pink. Quote me on this.
Noted.
daisy: If the UK is worse than the present #5 in the world in terms of GDP come July 1st 2018 I will dye my hair pink.

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x0_000
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Re: Brexit

Post by x0_000 » Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:34 am

Image
Only in math can you buy 600 cantaloupes and not look like a nutter.

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Dragonite
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Re: Brexit

Post by Dragonite » Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:35 pm

At least you're all freed from.... that face now.

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Linkman
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Re: Brexit

Post by Linkman » Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:11 am

Dragonite is of course speaking about this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07 ... ukip-live/

Sup now Brexiters, someone's gonna have to actually do the thing you preached.
"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
"I can't believe I'm the only person who voted Stallone. His appeal lies in watching is movies again and again just to hear what the hell he's talking about." - Kilteh

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:56 am

1. Not all Brexiters love Farage. Stop peddling that myth.
2. He was never in government so he could not dictate policy.

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Bonesy
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Re: Brexit

Post by Bonesy » Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:24 am

brexit light enter night

ThunderWalker
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Re: Brexit

Post by ThunderWalker » Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:40 am

daisy wrote:Okay at this point I have literally no idea what TW is talking about or why he is bringing up certain things that have zero relevance to the conversation. And he's literally making things up about my political positions... (Seriously, get lost with that.) Is the Dutch media calling all Brexiters nationalists or something?

I'm done unless someone has something intelligent to say.
I actually have no clue about what you are talking about anymore either.
My last post said nothing about your political position, after all.

I agree that it is a good idea to call this conversation off. It's going nowhere and various things we said are now living a life of their own up to the point they have little to do with what has been said at all.
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bog2

Re: Brexit

Post by bog2 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:38 am

Nationalism is a political position. The entire reason you're discussing this with me is because of my political position.

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