WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

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MysteriousLad
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by MysteriousLad » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:28 am

Dragonite wrote:Something I notice here(thunderwalker somwhat touched on this), is that you present 3 sub-arguments with confidence, and then skip ahead to the choice between the two conclusions to be drawn from your conclusion. However, everybody you're arguing with doesn't automatically accept the sub-arguments. How those faith healing stories are presented, the manner they are conducted in, and especially the things that tend to be wrong with them, follow set patterns, and it isn't a nice one.

I used to take the ''miracle or unlikely coincidence'' choice at face value, but after gaining some experience with the topic, I found out one thing: You'll never get to see the whole picture.
I agree you should never take a miracle at face value, too many fakes, frauds and explainable "miracles" around. My sub-arguments were aimed at a "real" miracle; a healing science really can't explain even after research. I am myself very sceptical about what is a miracle.
Dragonite wrote:As I alluded to before, faith healing focuses on things that are often not very clearly visible. I must press you on this point: why are amputees never healed?
I wouldn't make such a sweeping statements as "never", there have been claims of it happening in the past and just because we can't see it happening now doesn't mean it happens "never". I however understand what you are trying to mean.
Here is one such historical miracle which is up for discussion if it was faked or not but I'll post it anyway:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Calanda. Also why would God be obliged to heal them? Amputees not being healed wouldn't be an argument against God.
Dragonite wrote:Can you go into more specifics how you got introduced to the concept, by whom, and what exactly made you as a person convinced of it?
1. I got introduced by seeing my friend healed, I was aware of healing as I had heard preaches on it before. This however didn't convince me, I would be a fool to blindly believe something someone said.

2. By my local church and a preacher named Adrian Holloway.

3. After seeing my friend healed and people from wheel-chairs get up and run even though they shouldn't even be able to walk. The prayers weren't done by a leader, we were given the chance to pray for each other and the healings happened as such. My friend could read after having to wear glasses for years and hasn't had them since.
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by MysteriousLad » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:42 am

ThunderWalker wrote:The Bible contradicts itself incredibly often. You can look it up yourself, it's like everywhere.
A few examples: http://www.answering-christianity.com/1 ... ctions.htm
It was the first or second link that popped up when typing "Bible Contradictions" in Google.

Also, only using the Bible as proof for other parts of the Bible isn't going to help your argument. I still have no sources seen from you (or others) to support your argument.
Also first google search option:
http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/bible.htm
Has a list of all contradictions and explains all of them.

As for your second statement, what did I use the Bible to prove?
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by monkymeet » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:02 am

MysteriousLad wrote:Dragonite I will reply in order so I'm not just skipping your post here.
monkymeet wrote:I'm not quite sure if i understood what you said. Did you say you ARE an Old Earth Creationist? Because Evolution is literally the strongest scientific theory we have. We have more proof and understanding of it that, say, gravity. Anyone arguing against evolution clearly doesn't understand any biology, or science for that matter.
Wether Evolution is the stronget theory there is is up for debate but that would need it's whole own topic as it's a massive irritating disccussion which ends up nowhere as neither side can proove their point. We all have had "experiences" which lead us to believe what we believe, and when we believe, we tend to seem 100% convinced with it. So to different people with give different opinions on that, take Sir Francis Collins; he is a Creationist. As said before, my views on this subject are subject to change.
As a biologist, this frustrates me. Evolution is vastly more proven by scientist who use solid evidence as observed in nature. You are choosing to believe the word of a theologist, who has absolutely no training in how life actually works over thousands of years of scientific evidence. You say no side can prove their point. Science has proved that it exists. You see evolution EVERYWHERE. Darwin's Finches. Domestication of animals, of every sort. We have our livestock, we have recently domesticated the silver fox to resemble a dog. We have see animals adapt to changing environments. Bacteria mutate and become resistant to antibiotics. We have the fossil record. We have solid proof of speciation. We have genetic proof. These aren't opinions. These are facts.

You specify Sir Francis Collins. which is a little strange since he's been on the record rejecting creationism and intelligent design, as they are obviously not scientific. You must have misunderstood his beliefs, mistaking what he calls theistic evolution (which is not a scientific theory, but a theological idea) as Creationism.
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Twelve Boats » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:55 am

also: pokemon
the dream

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by monkymeet » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:38 am

That goes without saying.
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by MysteriousLad » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:10 am

"]
MysteriousLad wrote:Dragonite I will reply in order so I'm not just skipping your post here.
monkymeet wrote:I'm not quite sure if i understood what you said. Did you say you ARE an Old Earth Creationist? Because Evolution is literally the strongest scientific theory we have. We have more proof and understanding of it that, say, gravity. Anyone arguing against evolution clearly doesn't understand any biology, or science for that matter.
Wether Evolution is the stronget theory there is is up for debate but that would need it's whole own topic as it's a massive irritating disccussion which ends up nowhere as neither side can proove their point. We all have had "experiences" which lead us to believe what we believe, and when we believe, we tend to seem 100% convinced with it. So to different people with give different opinions on that, take Sir Francis Collins; he is a Creationist. As said before, my views on this subject are subject to change.
As a biologist, this frustrates me. Evolution is vastly more proven by scientist who use solid evidence as observed in nature. You are choosing to believe the word of a theologist, who has absolutely no training in how life actually works over thousands of years of scientific evidence. You say no side can prove their point. Science has proved that it exists. You see evolution EVERYWHERE. Darwin's Finches. Domestication of animals, of every sort. We have our livestock, we have recently domesticated the silver fox to resemble a dog. We have see animals adapt to changing environments. Bacteria mutate and become resistant to antibiotics. We have the fossil record. We have solid proof of speciation. We have genetic proof. These aren't opinions. These are facts.

You specify Sir Francis Collins. which is a little strange since he's been on the record rejecting creationism and intelligent design, as they are obviously not scientific. You must have misunderstood his beliefs, mistaking what he calls theistic evolution (which is not a scientific theory, but a theological idea) as Creationism.[/quote]
Ah I seriously messed up there with the Francis Collins statement, that is incorrect so I apologize. You are a biologist? That's interesting, I may make the next debate on evolution with so many oppinion. I am striving to get into Oxford University when I am older and study Biological Sciences as Biology fascinates me. You said Evolution is proven, however it can't be observed and therefore can't be scientifically proven. Finches and such are all just variations in one species, just like the many breeds of dogs and even cow, however they are all still just that; dogs and cows.
They aren't becoming a new species, I also see the fossil record differently; I see many gaps and missing links. I am but 15 and have alot still to learn so as said this could easily change my views on evolution.
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Dragonite » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:12 am

Twelve Boats wrote:also: pokemon
[youtube]MRNMjPdei5Q[/youtube]

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Dragonite » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:14 am

Monkey being a biologist is news to me too. What do you do specifically if I might ask? Kind of curious now :p

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by monkymeet » Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:14 am

Draggie, I did Biomedical Engineering at university. I decided not to go into the field directly after college (pursuing other interests like programming and wine), but might go back for a PhD at some point. I still keep up with bio research, but I may change my focus from biomedical to organismal or ecology.

I gave very clear examples of it being observed. Bacteria mutate and evolve in front of our eyes daily. Species adapt to changing environments. Finches are NOT variations of the same species as they can no longer interbreed, which is the definition of speciation (technically, the males will not be fertile, this is how cross-species hybrids like liligers can exist). If you try to get into Oxford in Biology and reject evolution, they'll laugh at you.

I'll avoid talking about genetic proof as that's much more complicated and requires knowledge that you likely have not received yet. I will also clear up some things spread by Christian propaganda (like truthinscience.org). I call it propaganda because they are blatant lies used to suit their agenda of misleading people.

1) Micro and macro-evolution do not exist. They are fabricated terms that are not used in science. Only creationist use these terms. Evolution is evolution.

2) Evolution is random. It does not have a direction or intention, nor is it smart. It is through natural selection that results in certain characteristics that are beneficial to the species. A side note because of my focus on Comparative Biomechanics: Nature is generally a decent designer, but not the most efficient or smart. The most efficient design would be unable to adapt to a slight change in environment. As such, animals will tend to have efficient enough, but still have leeway.

3) Speciation HAS, in fact, been observed directly: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrar ... speciation

4) Evolution can take a long time or a short time, depending on the reproductive cycle. Bacteria and viruses change VERY fast because they have a short generational length. This is why you might catch the cold every year. This is why certain diseases are difficult to cure (like HIV). However, for longer living creatures, this also means that evolution is "slower."

5) Our bodies are definitely not "intelligently designed." We have a lot of stupid things that make no sense. The appendix is useless and actually detrimental if food gets caught in it. A fertilised egg can fall into the fallopian tube or cervix, causing an ectopic pregnancy. This can kill both the mother and child if it were not for modern day surgery. Other idiosyncrasies include how our sensor for suffocation is CO2 buildup, not lack of O2, so we will just pass out and die painlessly if we breathe pure nitrogen. We would only need 3 muscles to move our eyes, but we have six. I point the flaws on purpose, as they are leftover evidence of evolutionary working. As I mentioned earlier, evolution goes for what just works, not the best or most efficient approach.

6) Fossil gaps. Species don't change at a constant rate. Remember when I said evolution is random? It comes in bursts and then lulls. Due to how rare the conditions for fossils, it is understandable we don't have 100% of the fossil record of a specific line (I'm sure a high percentage is pretty acceptable). However, we have found so many of these transitional fossils. We have transitional fossils betweens dinosaurs and birds. We have vestigial limbs are also living proof. Why do some whales have nubs? They are leftovers from a common land mammal ancestor. This and many other examples are proof of descent from a common ancestor. We have clear fossil records of fish moving onto land, too. They're called lungfish, and they're still around.

We have been able to recreate organic compounds in "Early Earth Conditions." RNA has been formed with just the needed elements and heat. We have mitochondria in our cells that resemble bacteria, suggesting than organelles are prokaryotic cells absorbed into eukaryotic cells.

I know this isn't the most organised of arguments, but if you want more examples, I can literally write them all day. These are just the ones off the top of my head. A look in my textbooks will have hundreds, if not thousands more. And then there's the internet too. I'm not very well versed in plants, either, and they exemplify evolution evidence.

It's alright to say that you don't know any of this yet. Maybe your school hasn't gone over basic biology principles yet. I'm just trying to teach you just some of the most basic ideas. However, if you continue to deny evolution's evidence exists and fail to try to understand how biology works, I cannot help you. There is a reason why evolution is taught. Because it's fact, and we have all the life in the world to prove it.

Here's some more information from my uni, University of California, Berkeley. It is widely known as one of the most respected universities in the world, so if want to take a religious leader's word over it, that's your choice: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evohome.html
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Sven » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:44 am

can't you literally ignore the fossil record AND all of genetics and still have convincing proof of what's going on? some dawkins book i read years ago mentioned it i think. i forget what it was though.

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by monkymeet » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:19 am

I haven't read Dawkins and I usually don't refer to him when talking with Christians. He's automatically puts them on the defensive, so it's not conducive to convincing them.

But yes. There are so many different ways to go about proving evolution.
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by MysteriousLad » Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:03 pm

monkymeet wrote:I haven't read Dawkins and I usually don't refer to him when talking with Christians. He's automatically puts them on the defensive, so it's not conducive to convincing them.

But yes. There are so many different ways to go about proving evolution.
After a few hours of research through internet and a few books I downloaded I can say I think I'm now an Agnostic-Theistic-Evolutionist, the agnostic part is as I do not yet know how I can compile that and make it compatible with my Christian view. I looked alot of argments against Evolutiom and then counter-arguments against those, while doing this with an open mind I realized I am actually (probaly) in the wrong.
Still trying to think it through though.
I disagree with Dawkins, for reasons I'll go into in another post.

This debate end at 00:00 2nd of September, tommorow will be the last day of this debate. After this debate has ended anyone can post what they would like as the next debate topic. How this works is written in the OP.
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Sven » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:01 pm

the dawkins book i read was one of his actual biology books for what it's worth, i don't mean that it was a point in the god delusion or something.

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Post a suggestion for the next topic

Post by MysteriousLad » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:51 pm

This debate has ended.
Anyone may now post a suggestion for the topic of the next debate. If there is a clear majority opinion that will be chosen and if not, I will randomly pick one.
For more information look here.
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Post a suggestion for the next topic

Post by Bonesy » Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:55 am

should juggalos be considered a gang: discuss

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Post a suggestion for the next topic

Post by Dragonite » Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:57 am

I still needed to reply, had a few busy days >_>

You still want one, or remember it for next time? Still, with several posters hounding you, you handled yourself well, and having a defined end time is a major innovation in the history of WWN religion flamewa-er.. debates.

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Post a suggestion for the next topic

Post by MysteriousLad » Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:00 am

Dragonite wrote:I still needed to reply, had a few busy days >_>

You still want one, or remember it for next time? Still, with several posters hounding you, you handled yourself well, and having a defined end time is a major innovation in the history of WWN religion flamewa-er.. debates.
You can post it via pm if it's bothering you, this wasn't ever intended as a religion topic in the first place. It's meant to apply to the "more serious debates" part about the Happy Idiot Talk description.
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Post a suggestion for the next topic

Post by Dragonite » Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:36 am

Ah right. We used to have a subforum for it, but that one was rarely used, and Xen eventually merged into happy idiot.

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Post a suggestion for the next topic

Post by QQQQQQQ7777777 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:36 am

Debate: How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Post a suggestion for the next topic

Post by Xenesis » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:20 am

Dragonite wrote:Ah right. We used to have a subforum for it, but that one was rarely used, and Xen eventually merged into happy idiot.
Yeah, there wasn't enough activity in both the media boards and the discussion about crap boards and I merged the two aeons ago. It's worked, mostly.
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Post a suggestion for the next topic

Post by daisy » Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:11 am

I know this topic is ancient, but like, I met Dawkins today at the train station. The joys of living in Oxford. Either he's an arsehole or he gets it all the time, but he didn't really acknowledge me beyond a handshake.

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Post a suggestion for the next topic

Post by Dragonite » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:52 am

Well, it's not overly old or anything, ML decided to deadline the discussion, which is actually pretty clever knowing how these topics can go. What did you say to him?

Dawkins been on my mind for a while. He's getting infamous at this point for twitter disasters, and he's the go-to figure in most pieces that mention atheism, mostly to devote a paragraph to say how wrong he is etc. He's still a ''face'' of atheism, but most atheist activists stress he's not a leader of any kind. TGD is 6 years ago now, yet it's often the first and only atheist book discussed. For a few reasons I understand it, but I'm getting somewhat tired of the Dawkins focus, especially the large focus on it's faults. I've read the God Delusion, and for me I mostly recall it for A calling to be more outspoken B 'haha, I can finally read the forbidden fruit at least!'' giddyness C What Dawkins does best is just inspiring passion for a science/naturalistic view is wonderful on it's own. Otherwise, eh... it's good for on the fence people, or people who are insecure like me, but it's not really a book that ought to be the centerpiece of atheistic arguing. Dawkins is relevant for his cultural impact(aside from memes a word), but otherwise I want to move on to more in-depth arguments and books.

Oh, and Bog, http://www.patheos.com/blogs/camelswithhammers/ this blogger/philosophy professor reminds me of you in certain areas, especially general passion. There's a specific argument of his I've personally adopted as well, but oh hey I have a school presentation tomorrow, haven't got time for walls of text. Just wanted to bring it up once.

As for next debate topics.. Maybe we could have a go with Feminism and the current Middle-East situation? Both have been on my mind lately with gamergate, and well, the news, so they might be interesting and controversial topics to tackles if there's enough interest.

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Post a suggestion for the next topic

Post by Bonesy » Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:04 am

gamergaters are fudge pieces of crumpets, the end, no debate needed

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Post a suggestion for the next topic

Post by Linkman » Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:01 am

Is that the Zoey Quinn thing? Cause I was totally meaning to make a topic about that. Go for it MysteriousLobster!
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Post a suggestion for the next topic

Post by Bonesy » Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:14 am

zoe quinn and anita sarkeesian are dumb but not because they're women but the gamergaters are worse

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Post a suggestion for the next topic

Post by MysteriousLad » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:23 pm

Which topic first? Feminism or Middle-East?
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Post a suggestion for the next topic

Post by Treedweller » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:27 pm

Feminism is an uncontroversial and correct ideology, Quinn and Sarkeesian are right, and 'gamergaters' are the vilest pustules. There isn't anything to debate.

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Post a suggestion for the next topic

Post by Bonesy » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:37 pm

but treed the feminazos are trying to take away our gamer licenses and video jugos

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Post a suggestion for the next topic

Post by Linkman » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:48 pm

It's not like there's anything to discuss there, true, but I find it interesting to think about the ramifications of a "gamer community", as it is--it's the only mass media with such a community, and I wonder if that's the reason it seems to be so ripe with misogyny? Perhaps if there was an active and connected "book community" or "film community", they would stink of sexism as well? Or is it simply because gamers are inherently man-child scumbags?

If anything, reading about this mess made me have a bit of an epiphany: I don't think the gamer label could ever apply to me. I mean, not that it ever could, but when I grew up, videogames were such a big part of my life! It was a characteristic of my generation, my parents couldn't really fathom why I was so entertained by gaming. And now I watch how the industry and audience develops and I feel so detached. I have absolutely nothing to do with this medium. The newest game I've bought is Skyward Sword. The last console I bought was a Wii. I'm just not in it anymore. I'm not part of the community, I have become the dreaded casual gamer--if even that.

Somehow, this puts it all into perspective. I'm not outraged at these dickwads harassing a lady. I'm baffled. I don't get why these guys hate women. But then I have some flashbacks to playing Counterstrike and Unreal Tournament online, and all of a sudden I can remember a bunch of little kids spewing obscenities into my computer screen, and it makes a little sense. I guess they didn't grow up along with me.

tl;dr Linky realizes he's no longer into gaming, or how Bullwinkle realized he had the hots for Rocky.
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Post a suggestion for the next topic

Post by Dragonite » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:29 pm

There was a uproar within the USA secular movement as well, and we had a little discussion on zero suit samus last summer. I haven't yet seen the vid that started it all, but I heard it had a Red Dead redemption achievement that involves the classic Woman om rail tracks villainly. I need to watch more first, but my first gut feeling about that specific example is that it feels like overshooting te issue, it being a dark joke making fun of a old cliche.

I'm also a bit curious if feminism(and any controversy regarding it) is different between Europe and the US. I also find myself getting strangely annoyed at the subject. Is this because of bias PR or because feminists can be overzealous? Mainly aiming at some self- enlightement here, and this is a cozy place for doing so.

And regarding middle-east, the big questions are the main causes of the current war, and another issue is: has IS anything to do with Islam? Obama has denied this, but well, the Quran does have verses which can fuel the likes of IS.

Cans of worms all around.

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Post a suggestion for the next topic

Post by MysteriousLad » Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:21 pm

Ok debate now started, topic: Feminism and The Middle-East unrest. This will end on the 16th of October.
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Feminism and The Middle-East Unrest

Post by Narts » Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:32 pm

Feminism and the Middle East?

Well Aliaa Magda Elmahdy is inspiring. One of the few people I can unironically look up to as a hero.

Dunno what feminism in the first world is about, other than getting angry about things that don't matter and using it as a front for socialist and statist and mind control agendas.

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Sven

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Feminism and The Middle-East Unrest

Post by Sven » Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:41 am

mind control agendas[/b]

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Sven

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Feminism and The Middle-East Unrest

Post by Sven » Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:44 am

and yes i totally forgot which tag i wanted to use as i made that one line post.

daisy
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Feminism and The Middle-East Unrest

Post by daisy » Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:06 am

Not read the topic, but tbh after we fudge up the whole region, I kinda feel like it's our responsibility to blow ISIS to bits.

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Dragonite
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Feminism and The Middle-East Unrest

Post by Dragonite » Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:47 am

Routing them is going to be difficult though, since the other rebels/armies in the area are weak. Not sure about Assad's army, but of course he has the added side effect of being evil himself.There might be a good chance the US will be forced to use their ground forces again... This is going to be a long ride at the very least.

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Feminism and The Middle-East Unrest

Post by daisy » Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:57 am

It's not about routing them (and that's impossible... you can't kill an idea), but about giving the Iraqi army the chance to fight back. These guys are so extreme even Al-Qaeda have denounced them.

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MysteriousLad
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Feminism and The Middle-East Unrest

Post by MysteriousLad » Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:07 am

They threatened Canada, nobody... threatens... Canada.
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Dragonite
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Feminism and The Middle-East Unrest

Post by Dragonite » Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:36 am

daisy wrote:It's not about routing them (and that's impossible... you can't kill an idea), but about giving the Iraqi army the chance to fight back. These guys are so extreme even Al-Qaeda have denounced them.
True about the idea part. By routing I meant breaking their stranglehold over certain areas, especially since they have heavy weaponry. In the current situation the Iraqi army is responsible for that, and as far as I know they are still weak. A better government and various countries supplying weapons might improve matters, but even then Syria is a whole different beast. IS being defeated there would mean that Assad regains control, unless the moderate rebel groups gain power.

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Feminism and The Middle-East Unrest

Post by daisy » Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:34 am

Supplying weapons is what fudge things up in the first place. ISIS are using American and Syrian weaponry.

I'm against the 2004 Iraq war, but at this point, from how I see it, the best option would be to fudge blizkreig the lot. Assad, ISIS and Saudi Arabia. Yes, Russia won't be happy, but who gives a fudge. They can't exactly scream "annexation" anymore.

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