Russia stuff.

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Dragonite
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Russia stuff.

Post by Dragonite » Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:07 am

Kind of tired right now, so I'm not writing a huge introduction post, and besides, everybody who cares can watch the news. By this point I'm growing a bit worried that there's going to be a war of some kind, and Russia's actions and stance seem to be creeping closer to a black and white situation over time as well, and it depends on who is writing(most Dutch press blames Russia though). It's not overly far from our country, and Russia being a flat out enemy would rampage the slow recovery that's going on here, so yeah, creeped out. Anyone here who also is trying to keep up with it?

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McTool
Rank: East Coast Deity Lord

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by McTool » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:05 am

I think Russia is viewed as the Big Bad everywhere, but I might be wrong. The US press is doing its best to sensationalize while obscuring the details (as usual), and honestly the best source I have on this is my dad, who spent years in Ukraine, majored in Slavic Studies, and worked at the Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute for years. He's got a bunch of contacts and I call about once a week to get the latest.

It. Is. Terrifying. The absolute last thing the world needs right now is another major conflict to focus on in favor of internal politics, and between Crimea, the Ukraine, and Turkey, I think everyone is starting to get fed up with Russia's crumpets, and if this leads to an actual Big Goddamn War, we all lose.
Make good choices

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MysteriousLad
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Re: Russia stuff.

Post by MysteriousLad » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:20 pm

Dragonite off topic but your also Dutch? What does Turkey have to do with the problems in Ukraine? Russia would be stupid to declare war. They would lose a lot of money which they need in an already failing economy. As for Russia saying they will cut off gas supplies, it'll affect them more than us as it is one of their biggest exports. Gas prices would rise in Europe yes but the US would send tankers with gas just to piss of Russia as much as they can anyway. It will also make Europe more independent from Russia as we will find other ways to get gas. To me it just looks like Putin wants power and fame they're threatening things they won't do but people will make a fuss about it anyway, which is what they want. Bit like America really saying stuff others make fuss but nothing happens. So yeah, I'm on neither side. Russia's going to far and Americas a hypocrite worsening an already bad situation.
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daisy
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Re: Russia stuff.

Post by daisy » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:26 am

I'm mostly with the Russians. Even if Putin is a twit.

As always, the mainstream sources of news are pissing me off. Both sides are full of endless propaganda. RT is heavily pro Russia, while virtually every western broadcaster is like EW AWAY DIRTY COMMIES. The US in particular has a bad case of world police syndrome. Who the hell are they to lecture anyone, ANYONE, about imperialism?

Here are the facts:
- Even if the referendum in Crimea was rigged, the majority of people there are Russian and want to be part of Russia.
- Eastern Ukraine is full of Russians.
- Western Ukraine isn't.

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MysteriousLad
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Re: Russia stuff.

Post by MysteriousLad » Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:48 pm

Yeah and the people who weren't Russian in Crimea crewed up by not voting as they refused to acknowledge the referendum.
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Narts

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Narts » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:01 pm

daisy wrote: Here are the facts:
- Even if the referendum in Crimea was rigged, the majority of people there are Russian and want to be part of Russia.
- Eastern Ukraine is full of Russians.
- Western Ukraine isn't.
So... if you want to annex a part of country, just make sure a lot of your people immigrate there first so they can vote to make it legal? Got it

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Linkman
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Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Linkman » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:31 am

It's Mexico's cunning plan to regain its lost land
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Pkdragon
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Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Pkdragon » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:40 am

Linkman wrote:It's Mexico's cunning plan to regain its lost land
oh my god it all makes sense now
HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by daisy » Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:17 am

Narts wrote:
daisy wrote: Here are the facts:
- Even if the referendum in Crimea was rigged, the majority of people there are Russian and want to be part of Russia.
- Eastern Ukraine is full of Russians.
- Western Ukraine isn't.
So... if you want to annex a part of country, just make sure a lot of your people immigrate there first so they can vote to make it legal? Got it
Russians have been there since at least the 19th century. 58.5% of people there are Russian. In the 2001 census, 77% of Crimeans said Russian was their native language. Only 10% said Ukrainian and 11% said Crimean Tatar.

People move about. That's the way it's always worked since the dawn of the human race.

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Narts

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Narts » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:27 am

Really! Gee I wonder how Putin would answer if we asked him to hand over Karelia back to Finland.

After all Finnish people have lived there since like the iron age.

We could send some troops over to speed up the voting process.

He's also temporarily holding some regions for Japan and Germany from what I hear.

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by daisy » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:29 am

Yup, and so he should. Please don't get the impression I'm pro-Russian. I'm not. I'm pro-people.

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Narts

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Narts » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:34 am

There's nothing wrong with being pro-Russian. Russians are cool people.

Putin is not.

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by daisy » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:42 am

daisy wrote:Putin is a twit.

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Dragonite
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Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Dragonite » Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:22 pm

After reading the news for a few weeks it's probably the best to seperate the russian government/putin entirely from the Russian people. Especially since it's a incredibly big country with a very poor countryside. Putin himself seems to have a genuinely different look on matters though(not really a rational one either). If one calls the fall of the Soviet-Union a great tragedy... But the USA is being a bit of a hypocrite with this as well, I probably don't know half of the crap they have pulled in the past century to instate the government they wanted in certain places.

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Xenesis
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Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Xenesis » Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:30 pm

Honestly, you generally shouldn't judge the people of a country by its government for the most part.
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daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by daisy » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:36 pm

I'm being misunderstood. It was within the rights of the people of Crimea and is within the rights of the people to Ukraine to join with Russia.

I'm not pro-Russian. I'm pro-people. Pro-people includes the Russian people. Borders are stupid.

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Dragonite
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Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Dragonite » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:07 am

Reminded of the tanks!! Grit speech once again. When it all comes down to it, borders are people not trusting each other. Crimea will probably stay Russian(I do think the annexation was legal because of Crimea's history), although I dislike how Russia is playing the people angle to increase it's influence. The timingframe in which all of this is happening is way too small.

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Narts

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Narts » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:47 am

What about the people who don't happen to be Russian in that one specific area and don't want to be part of Russia? Where are their rights?

There were supposed to be laws and international agreements in place to guarantee those rights.

But I see it's really the strong that dictate these things. Russia storng, no need to observe law. Putin can just walk over anyone he wants and if the response of the West stays as limpwristed and ineffectual as it has been so far he will damn well continue doing precisely as he pleases. Should we start placing bets on where he invades next? International politics hasn't been this exciting since the 1940's! Whee!

It was stupid of Ukraine to give up their nukes. It is clear now that it is stupid of anyone to give up or scale back their nuclear arsenal. Anyone without nukes should do anything they can to acquire nuclear capability or just submit to the fact they have to suck up to whoever has nukes. Anyone with nukes should acquire even more nukes. Welcome back to 80's. Nothing has changed.

I think some of you are missing the bigger implications of this.

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Linkman
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Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Linkman » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:56 am

Finally, a post I can get behind. Thank you, Narts.
"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
"I can't believe I'm the only person who voted Stallone. His appeal lies in watching is movies again and again just to hear what the hell he's talking about." - Kilteh

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by daisy » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:32 am

Majority rule. Democracy innit.

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Narts

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Narts » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:39 am

So if the majority in this current area doesn't decide what we want then just narrow it down a little bit?

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by daisy » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:47 am

If the majority wants to remain part of Ukraine then so they should be. It's the opposite, though.

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Treedweller

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Treedweller » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:55 am

Honey, Narts is explaining that you can find a majority to vote on anything if you narrow the parameters enough.

Plus, think about it. Regardless of what Crimeans wanted, Russia pulled away an entire region from Ukraine - a region flush with strategic and economic importance. Putin stole an entire region by masking it as an act of democratic, grassroots justice. And maybe it was democratic and grassroots - maybe many Crimeans wanted it. But really, we should ask: why, in this specific case, should we care what they want?

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by daisy » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:56 am

Because I'm a democrat. Mostly. So I care about what they want.

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Narts

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Narts » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:59 am

What I'm trying to hint at here is that I sincerely doubt the majority of Ukraine wanted to be split into two.

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Treedweller

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Treedweller » Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:01 am

Okay, but you missed the point, Bog. We explained that majorities can be created at whim to serve politicians' interests. Does that satisfy the democrat in you?

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MysteriousLad
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Re: Russia stuff.

Post by MysteriousLad » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:54 am

daisy wrote:Because I'm a democrat. Mostly. So I care about what they want.
You do know only Russians voted as the rest refused to acknowledge the annexation.
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

And logic doesn't work on MysteriousLad... ~Kireato
Wait, wait, wait.

Organized crime is selling bagels on television? Since when? ~Dragon Fogel

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by daisy » Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:04 am

Narts wrote:What I'm trying to hint at here is that I sincerely doubt the majority of Ukraine wanted to be split into two.
I don't want Scotland to go independent, but I still support the Scottish referendum and their right to choose.
Treedweller wrote:Okay, but you missed the point, Bog. We explained that majorities can be created at whim to serve politicians' interests. Does that satisfy the democrat in you?
Putin got a load of Russians to move in a few hundred years ago? Or is it a huge conspiracy that's been in the works since the 1800s?
MysteriousLad wrote:
daisy wrote:Because I'm a democrat. Mostly. So I care about what they want.
You do know only Russians voted as the rest refused to acknowledge the annexation.
55.8% of Crimeans are Russian as of 2001. Even if only Russians voted, that's still a majority.

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Narts

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Narts » Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:21 am

Go ahead and vote, if the UK decides it's prudent to make a nation-wide poll about whether to allow Scotland to vote about independence. After that, people in Scotland could vote for themselves. No need to get a strongman from Russia to redraw national borders in an area outside of his jurisdiction.

It would still be a dick move to non-separatists living in Scotland, though.

You also kind of missed the point that deciding what area has the right to vote for itself is largely arbitrary, and so is the concept of nationality. I could right now wall off my apartment, declare it as an independent state, and ask to become part of the British Empire because I'm an english-speaking citizen. It's a majority decision after all. Okay, I don't know if the spider in the bathroom would agree, but it's her loss for not participating in the vote.

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by daisy » Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:42 am

I agree with you. Borders are just lines drawn up on a map by warlords, but we have to be realists.

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Dragonite
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Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Dragonite » Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:42 pm

Btw, mysteriouslad(if you hang around longer we have to create a nickname for you) , you said you're dutch? And how old are you? Your English is still somewhat odd at times,but nowhere near as bad as mine when I got here. I'm also Dutch and 22 now, was 15 when I registered. Man, it's been ages.

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Kiltman2
Location: With the fairies

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Kiltman2 » Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:22 am

One of the problems with the Crimean referendum is that both questions were effective de facto votes to join the Russian Federation, or independence - not to continue as a part of Ukraine. If it were truly an effective democratic referendum, the status quo would also have been an option.

There is also strong evidence that Russian troops were heavily influencing the vote through propaganda ("We are scared of the Nazi regime popping up in Keiv") and intimidation.

In the overall scheme of things, this is Putin exerting his power, weakening the ostensibly more pro-West/EU Ukraine govt (see also: the increase in natural gas prices) confident that the world is too interconnected & there is too much to lose for anything to escalate. Had this been 100 years previous we may be gearing up for war, but it isn't. There has even been discussion in the UK that we might have more to lose from economic sanctions than Russia might, which is an awkward position to be in really, and much of Europe is dependent on Russian energy.

It isn't as clear cut as a simple annexation - arguably Crimea is more Russian than other parts of Ukraine due to how it was divvied up, so on and so forth. But above everything, Russia has really shown that it is very concerned about keeping its old Soviet satellite states on side, and will do what is necessary to keep them on side or weaken them. The Russian govt will continue to work to weaken Ukraine from the inside, which is consistent with pro-Russian forces taking over Police buildings in Eastern Ukraine.


ie: Scottish independence vote & comparisons: Scottish referendum was recognised by the UK govt, includes the status quo (remain in UK) in the questions. Simple in / out referendum. Despite the best efforts of both sides of the debate, no real intimidation or worthwhile propaganda has emerged.

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by daisy » Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:27 am

Propaganda is a crucial part of democracy.

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Kiltman2
Location: With the fairies

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Kiltman2 » Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:52 am

Well okay. I guess if I were to be more specific with my point, it's that there has been an emphasis from Russia in Crimea & the homeland that the govt in Kiev is backed by nazi and right wing parties. Which is incorrect and used as scaremongering, thus propaganda and misinforming the populace.

I understand the next logical point is going to be "misrepresenting the truth and misinforming the public is what politicians do all day in our so-called 'democracy'" and to an extent I would agree with you, but there's strong political discourse and there is outright propaganda and obfuscation of truth.

But what is truth ahhh

this is why I don't argue

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by daisy » Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:39 am

I'd also say that democracy is all about misinforming the populace, but that's kinda cynical admittedly.

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Terragent
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Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Terragent » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:51 am

Keep in mind that this is all happening while Russia is debating whether or not it can prosecute Mikhail Gorbachev for the crime of dissolving the Soviet Union. They want their empire back, and they're not being very subtle about looking for pretexts.

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by daisy » Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:30 pm

I didn't know that. Odd, i know the Communist Party are the second party and all that, but surely that was a good thing for Putin?

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Narts

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by Narts » Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:30 pm

He's not interested in Communism, he just wants the power and the influence.

daisy
Rank: literally hitler

Re: Russia stuff.

Post by daisy » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:30 am

Just like any world leader.

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MysteriousLad
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Re: Russia stuff.

Post by MysteriousLad » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:52 am

Dragonite wrote:Btw, mysteriouslad(if you hang around longer we have to create a nickname for you) , you said you're dutch? And how old are you? Your English is still somewhat odd at times,but nowhere near as bad as mine when I got here. I'm also Dutch and 22 now, was 15 when I registered. Man, it's been ages.
Im 15, yeah sorry about my English.
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

And logic doesn't work on MysteriousLad... ~Kireato
Wait, wait, wait.

Organized crime is selling bagels on television? Since when? ~Dragon Fogel

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