WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

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MysteriousLad
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WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by MysteriousLad » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:11 am

Plato "Follow the argument wherever it leads."

How a debate will run

Topic:
Ok, at the end of each debate I will allow everyone to suggest a topic for the next debate or the option to continue the last one. If there is a clear wanted option that will be chosen but if there isn't I will pick at random.

Duration and participation:
A debate will last 3 weeks and if need a 1 week sign up, meaning this one will last until the 2nd of September. The signup will only be implemented if people don't take this seriously and flame/troll/post crumpets. I do hope this won't be needed as for now all debates are open. A signup would mean you can say if you wish to participate and then I'll make a list and only the people on it may participate that debate. If this still doesn't work I'll ban certain people from debates for a certain period of time.
But, that's only a measure if people are crumpets so I hope you won't be, also could any mods/admins not lock the topic in a bad situation and first let me try and sort it out. If you must take action just delete the "bad" posts please.

If you participate you are not obliged to post so you may post whenever you wish and as it's open all may join.

End of debate:
After the time period has ended I will decide what the outcome of the debate was, it will be noted in this post and I will make record of all debates here.

Debates:
Last edited by MysteriousLad on Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:47 am, edited 16 times in total.

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Linkman » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:14 am

For the record: I don't mind that people want to discuss this, and I kindly request that those who don't give a crap refrain from trolling. Let those who want to talk about this do it in peace.
"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by McTool » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:14 am

My thoughts on this are p. simple

Do I believe in a higher power? Yeah, sort of. I'm pretty firmly agnostic (aka "just in case," the religion), but I also think there's some larger force at work. Karma, whatever, there's something out there that drives us past just basic human instinct. Do I believe in the idea of God presented in Christianity and its subsections? Or in most other religions for that matter? Nope.

Okay now we place bets on how long until this explodes
Make good choices

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MysteriousLad
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by MysteriousLad » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:17 am

McTool wrote:My thoughts on this are p. simple

Do I believe in a higher power? Yeah, sort of. I'm pretty firmly agnostic (aka "just in case," the religion), but I also think there's some larger force at work. Karma, whatever, there's something out there that drives us past just basic human instinct. Do I believe in the idea of God presented in Christianity and its subsections? Or in most other religions for that matter? Nope.

Okay now we place bets on how long until this explodes
I do hope it doesn't, to clarify some stuff as the old old religion topic is gone I am christian.
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Bonesy » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:23 am

call me when we can debate about the fifth estate and how gaming journalism is a bunch of buttsluts

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by MysteriousLad » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:26 am

I think it would be good to start from the beginning of everything; the start of the universe. So why not kick off with the cosmological argument put together by Terry Miethe wonderfully:

Terry Miethe 1985
"Some limited changing being(s) exist.
The present existence of every limited, changing being is caused by another.
There cannot be an infinite regress of causes of being, because an infinite regress of finite beings would not cause the existence of anything.
Therefore, there is a first cause of the present existence of these beings.
The first cause must be infinite, necessary, eternal and one.
The first uncaused cause is identical with the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition."

My main reasons for the belief in God are:
1.Experience
2.Nature follows laws
3.The existence of the universe
4.The human mind

Why I believe it to be the Judeo-Christian god:
1.Experience
2.Bible
3.Jesus and historical records.

Let the debate begin!

McTool wrote:My thoughts on this are p. simple

Do I believe in a higher power? Yeah, sort of. I'm pretty firmly agnostic (aka "just in case," the religion), but I also think there's some larger force at work. Karma, whatever, there's something out there that drives us past just basic human instinct. Do I believe in the idea of God presented in Christianity and its subsections? Or in most other religions for that matter? Nope.

Okay now we place bets on how long until this explodes
Why do you not believe in any of these may I ask?
Last edited by MysteriousLad on Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by MysteriousLad » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:27 am

Bonesy wrote:call me when we can debate about the fifth estate and how gaming journalism is a bunch of buttsluts
Sure, just post this after the 2nd of September for a chance of it being chosen.
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

And logic doesn't work on MysteriousLad... ~Kireato
Wait, wait, wait.

Organized crime is selling bagels on television? Since when? ~Dragon Fogel

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Sven

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Sven » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:41 am

McTool wrote:My thoughts on this are p. simple

Do I believe in a higher power? Yeah, sort of. I'm pretty firmly agnostic (aka "just in case," the religion), but I also think there's some larger force at work. Karma, whatever, there's something out there that drives us past just basic human instinct. Do I believe in the idea of God presented in Christianity and its subsections? Or in most other religions for that matter? Nope.

Okay now we place bets on how long until this explodes
either goes completely inactive within 2-3 days from everyone posting the most non-offensive paragraphs possible or blows up later tonight with narts posting something overly aggressive for no reason.

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by MysteriousLad » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:43 am

Sven wrote:
McTool wrote:My thoughts on this are p. simple

Do I believe in a higher power? Yeah, sort of. I'm pretty firmly agnostic (aka "just in case," the religion), but I also think there's some larger force at work. Karma, whatever, there's something out there that drives us past just basic human instinct. Do I believe in the idea of God presented in Christianity and its subsections? Or in most other religions for that matter? Nope.

Okay now we place bets on how long until this explodes
either goes completely inactive within 2-3 days from everyone posting the most non-offensive paragraphs possible or blows up later tonight with narts posting something overly aggressive for no reason.
It doesn't have to blow up, the last one didn't until... I ignited it... But hey, it lasted a few weeks.
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

And logic doesn't work on MysteriousLad... ~Kireato
Wait, wait, wait.

Organized crime is selling bagels on television? Since when? ~Dragon Fogel

Lambda

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Lambda » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:46 am

My main reasons for the belief in God are:
1.Experience
What kind of experience ?

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by MysteriousLad » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:50 am

Lambda wrote:
My main reasons for the belief in God are:
1.Experience
What kind of experience ?
Now you may think I'm speaking crumpets but I know this is true.
Miracle healings to me and others I prayed for saw prayed for and overly councidental coincidents.
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

And logic doesn't work on MysteriousLad... ~Kireato
Wait, wait, wait.

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Sven

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Sven » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:53 am

lay off the shrooms

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Bonesy
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Bonesy » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:57 am

[youtube]_-agl0pOQfs[/youtube]

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Terragent » Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:12 am

Find somewhere else to troll, guys.

(cosmological argument falls on its face because there is no a priori reason to exempt god from requiring a cause and even if there were one then there is still no reason to assume it's the abrahamic god rather than any other thing we've already imagined or are yet to invent)

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by MysteriousLad » Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:16 am

Bonesy wrote:[youtube]_-agl0pOQfs[/youtube]
Sven and bonsey please don't post if your not serious or if the post is a joke.
Treedweller wrote:I'm an atheist. I'm also a radical feminist who also believes that humans will never come to a perfect understanding of the universe, though, so I guess what I'm saying is that I'm the opposite of Dawkins, Pinker, Harris and all those other popular white male scientizers and critics of religion who think they can out-philosopher philosophers.
Yeah, Dawkins does speak an awful lot of nonsense.
Terragent wrote: Find somewhere else to troll, guys.

(cosmological argument falls on its face because there is no a priori reason to exempt god from requiring a cause and even if there were one then there is still no reason to assume it's the abrahamic god rather than any other thing we've already imagined or are yet to invent)
I beg to differ, in fact a God that had no beginning would need no cause, the rule isn't "Everything has a cause" it is "Everything that has a beginning has a cause". The universe "began" so it needs a cause. Also what do you mean by yet to invent? We have no power over the laws of nature.
God is also outside of time/space as those were created with the universe so he is "timeless".

All this argues for "a God" but why the Judeo Christian God?
Because Jesus lived and did what people had prophesied thousand of years before.
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

And logic doesn't work on MysteriousLad... ~Kireato
Wait, wait, wait.

Organized crime is selling bagels on television? Since when? ~Dragon Fogel

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Treedweller

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Treedweller » Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:19 am

I deleted my post because I realized this wasn't a discussion topic, but a debate sign-up (I don't want to debate anything). Just in case any wonder where Mysterious Lad's quote is coming from.

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by MysteriousLad » Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:21 am

Treedweller wrote:I deleted my post because I realized this wasn't a discussion topic, but a debate sign-up (I don't want to debate anything). Just in case any wonder where Mysterious Lad's quote is coming from.
It's not a sign up, anyones free to post whatever. The sign up is if people act crumpets.
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

And logic doesn't work on MysteriousLad... ~Kireato
Wait, wait, wait.

Organized crime is selling bagels on television? Since when? ~Dragon Fogel

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Sven

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Sven » Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:28 am

getting wrecked terragent i better get my cross out

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Satel

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Satel » Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:50 am

I don't believe in any of this. If it helps any of you, sure, but I don't expect anything from anything that I can't expect things from reliably.
Joey wrote:i think i was mad at certain players and wanted to wave st3rn's success in their face at the most opportune moment, or something

st3rn fudge st3rn

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Terragent » Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:52 am

ML, if you're just going to assert things that are patently false then this can never be a debate - it will at best be a shouting match. You seem unwilling or unable to see the dilemma, so I shall point it out to you. The cosmological argument makes some pretty serious assumptions that are not only physically unfalsifiable but also often philosophically unjustifiable - for instance:

• Does everything really have to have a cause? Why? You can't reach this conclusion a priori.
• If everything does require a cause, then how can it be possible for an acausal being to exist? That's a pretty straightforward contradiction.
• When you come down to it, how can you say with confidence that causal loops are impossible? Maybe the circle closes in on itself.
• Even if you do waive all of these objections, the argument doesn't make distinctions between acausal beings - if it works in favour of Christianity then it also works for every other religion that posits a supreme being that created the universe. For all you know, Akhenaten might have had it right all along and we're all children of the sun.

Given its unreliable provenance (none of the gospels can be reliably dated any earlier than ~60 AD), you can't really use the Bible to support your argument and expect to be taken seriously. It's a work of immense theological significance, but its miraculous assertions are not corroborated by any contemporary sources and its historical claims are frequently contradicted by archaeological evidence.


(throw your cross away, Sven - Akhenaten had the goods, that's why they covered it up after he died. Oldest conspiracy in human history! Don't let the Man get you down, worship the Aten!)

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Sven

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Sven » Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:58 am

i spent my first year of university studying egyptology, confirming that ahkenaten is boss.

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Sven » Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:31 am

Ahkenaten's hymn to Aten, the sun disk, attained literary and contemplative heights seldom reached in other Egyptian texts:

Code: Select all

How plentiful it is, what you have made,
although they are hidden from sight.

O unique god, beside whom there is no other,
you created the earth for your own sake, while you were alone,
humankind, all large and small cattle,
everything on land, that goes on foot,
and those in the air, that fly with their wings.

The hill countries of Khor and Kush and the land of Egypt,
you set every person in his place, you provided for their needs,
each one having his food, and his lifetime is counted out.

Tongues are distinct in speech, and their characters likewise.

Their skin colours are different, for you differentiated the foreign peoples.

In the Duat(underworld) you made a Nile
that you may bring it forth as you wish to nourish the commoners,
according as you have made them for yourself, their total master,
who became weary for them, lord of every land,
who shines for them, the Aten of daytime, great in majesty.

All distant foreign lands, you made them live, for you placed a Nile in the sky
that it might descend for them and make waves upon the mountains
like the sea to irrigate their fields in their towns.

How efficient are your plans, Lord of Eternity, a Nile in the sky for foreigners
and for the small cattle of every foreign land that go on foot,
a Nile that comes back from the underworld for Egypt.
---
the sudden monotheism push is so different from literally everything else in the egyptian mythos, i forget the politics behind it unfortunately.

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Narts

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Narts » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:07 am

Wasn't the politics pretty much that this guy wanted to make his god the one true god basically so he could make himself feel even more important, a kind of super pharaoh.

And then the old religious powers that be snuffed him out and tried to erase every trace of him and his cult from history because they of course couldn't have that.

It was an interesting period because its influence could also be seen in the arts of the time which were of markedly different style that had been done in Egypt before or since (their art was generally extremely rigid and codified, but during this dude's reign the artists were allowed to experiment more).

I remember this stuff because it was the main course of events that the novel "The Egyptian" was based on, which is incidentally the only finnish work of literature that is worth mentioning because it's not actually about how depressing finland is or anything finnish.

As for the whole god debate/discussion/thing, I think I'll be passing this one up.

Image

Carry on, gentlemen.

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Sven

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Sven » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:23 am

are you finnish?

seven brothers aka juhani y u chasin dat fudge whore across da fudge river she aint worth it jeez

*i think that was it idk i was not sober when i read it

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Narts

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Narts » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:39 am

yeah all finnish stories are about some dude chasing whores into lakes and rivers

Image

reading them drunk is absolutely the correct way to do it

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Twelve Boats » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:20 am

just worship me. can't go wrong
the dream

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Dragonite » Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:42 am

I should probably dig up your last PM and reply to that ML.

And miracle healings... that's the one subject I'm very touchy about. It has been used for money-making, and there's always a majority that doesn't get ''healed'' whatsoever and gets rubbed salt in the wound with that their faith is insufficient. In what context have you seen this?

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Terragent » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:21 am

Akhenaten's Hymn to the Sun, set to music by Philip Glass as part of an opera about Akhenaten. It's pretty rad. I may have been to see it twice in the last week.

I'm pretty sure Narts has most of the politics correct - ancient Egypt had a hugely powerful priest class, both in terms of political heft and personal wealth, and Akhenaten's actions were damaging to them both theologically and economically. It's also theorised that he neglected foreign and military affairs (in the ancient world the two were practically synonomous, amirite?) due to his focus on domestic and religous matters, but that may be due to bias in the extremely small set off contemporary writing we have access to, since most official records of the period were erased by his successors (most notably Horemheb, the last ruler of the dynasty, and Ramesses II several decades later).

Akhenaten also gave a lot of authority to his Great Royal Wife, Nefertiti - some people even believe that she ruled after his death under an assumed name prior to Tutankhamun's rule.

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Linkman » Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:08 pm

Philip Glass is aces, yo.
"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Narts » Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:33 pm

All of his pieces sound exactly the same

and they're just three notes repeated ad infinitum

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Linkman » Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:44 pm

I really like AC/DC, so maybe that makes sense.
"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
"I can't believe I'm the only person who voted Stallone. His appeal lies in watching is movies again and again just to hear what the hell he's talking about." - Kilteh

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by MysteriousLad » Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:59 pm

Terragent wrote:ML, if you're just going to assert things that are patently false then this can never be a debate - it will at best be a shouting match. You seem unwilling or unable to see the dilemma, so I shall point it out to you. The cosmological argument makes some pretty serious assumptions that are not only physically unfalsifiable but also often philosophically unjustifiable - for instance:

• Does everything really have to have a cause? Why? You can't reach this conclusion a priori.
• If everything does require a cause, then how can it be possible for an acausal being to exist? That's a pretty straightforward contradiction.
• When you come down to it, how can you say with confidence that causal loops are impossible? Maybe the circle closes in on itself.
• Even if you do waive all of these objections, the argument doesn't make distinctions between acausal beings - if it works in favour of Christianity then it also works for every other religion that posits a supreme being that created the universe. For all you know, Akhenaten might have had it right all along and we're all children of the sun.

Given its unreliable provenance (none of the gospels can be reliably dated any earlier than ~60 AD), you can't really use the Bible to support your argument and expect to be taken seriously. It's a work of immense theological significance, but its miraculous assertions are not corroborated by any contemporary sources and its historical claims are frequently contradicted by archaeological evidence.

(throw your cross away, Sven - Akhenaten had the goods, that's why they covered up after he died. Oldest conspiracy in human history! Don't let the Man get you down, worship the Aten!)
You have misunderstood me, I never said everything has a cause as that is not the case. Everything that has a beginning has a cause:
1.Every effect needs a cause.
2.A beginning is an effect and hence needs a cause.
3.This "cause" would need to be endless as you can't infinitely go down a line of cause-effects.
4.This cause could be the God I believe in.

There are 3 modern day solutions to this problem:
1.Infinite universe; this has been largely disproven by the Big Bang.
2.Multiverse; Infinite universes.
3.A Creator; Like a God.

I believe in a Creator (God) as I find it easier to believe in 1 impossible entity then infinite impossible entities (If there is a multiverse then theres is one where toothbrushes are wizards and Shakespeare is a nude bungee jumper).

As for the Bible, could you show me some of these historical evidences that contradict it? There is more historical evidence that a man named Jesus lived and he died on a cross than there is for the existence of Julius Caesar, there is also historical evidence that thousands of people reported seeing him 3 days later. He was either God or a madman, no step in-between.
As for the new gospel evidence I can discuss later but I was speaking about the old testament texts. That predicted all this to happen and it did, these texts were made well before his death.

By the way a point to think on; don't many people write a biography of their life later in their life and not as it goes along. How would writing the gospels 70 years ish after Christ be bad? Especially if they are all written independently without any discussion between the writers yet they all contain the same gospel?
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

And logic doesn't work on MysteriousLad... ~Kireato
Wait, wait, wait.

Organized crime is selling bagels on television? Since when? ~Dragon Fogel

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by MysteriousLad » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:11 pm

Dragonite wrote:I should probably dig up your last PM and reply to that ML.

And miracle healings... that's the one subject I'm very touchy about. It has been used for money-making, and there's always a majority that doesn't get ''healed'' whatsoever and gets rubbed salt in the wound with that their faith is insufficient. In what context have you seen this?
I can't place my finger or what syndrome dit was but this guy had a feet that were 1-2 too small, he got prayed for next to me and I saw his foot grow. It was possibly the creepiest time of my life. This was at Newday a youth conference in England and was in 2012.
Other healings I've seen are people bound to wheelchairs getting up running and never needing them again or people with glasses seeing. The great thing about Newday is that they ask permission from the people an te doctors to see their meical reports to confirm if it's real. There are many false healings for money out there and that saddens me. Also getting healed isn't to do with your faith, there are many people who aren't healed and I can make a more detailed post later on it if you wish.
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

And logic doesn't work on MysteriousLad... ~Kireato
Wait, wait, wait.

Organized crime is selling bagels on television? Since when? ~Dragon Fogel

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Terragent » Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:23 pm

You can't just assert that god is special and doesn't require a cause. That's ridiculous - it's on the level of Calvin going "kapwing" and reflecting Hobbes's imaginary bullets when they're playing cowboys & indians. It'd be the equivalent of me saying "conjure me up a miracle" and ignoring you when it failed to appear.

As far as history goes, you're clearly not very well-versed. I mean, picking Caesar of all people? His life and doings are some of the best documented of any individual in Classical antiquity - possibly the best documented. Contemporary historians, his political allies and opponents and a huge volume of Roman civic records attest to his life and deeds. You could at least have picked someone like Constantine I (whose existence is not in dispute but whose early life and later deeds are significantly vague due to the lack of unbiased sources on these matters) for a comparison.

The historical existence of Jesus is a moot point - what is not moot is that there aren't any non-Christian sources attesting to any of the multitude of miracles he's supposed to have performed; you know, the sort of things that would probably have caused a stir if they'd ever actually happened. And regardless of that, the gospels are a giant multi-translated mess, subject to political and theological meddling by the authors and by factions within the early church and within the Roman empires.

Let's not even open up the issue of which gospels are canonical and which are not, because that just makes it even more obvious that they have been political texts from their very beginning, written by people and frequently changed, excluded, or interpreted in ways favourable to the editor's theological or political views and objectives.

(the old testament is a giant pile of nonsense - its dates are directly contradicted by archaeological evidence in modern Israel and Egypt as well as broadly disagreeing with contemporary accounts from Egypt and Mesopotamia)

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to accomplish here - if you're just trying to practice your apologetics then my hat's off to you, but Thomas Aquinas you ain't. Your claims about actual history are wrong (it would be hard to find any individual whose existence is better attested than Julius Caesar) and it really just sounds like you're repeating what you've been told by others who share your convictions instead of examining the body of historical and theological scholarship on the matter.

A few links for you to ponder:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark (the likely origin of Matthew and Luke, though some scholars disagree)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical ... he_Gospels
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea (and the rest of the ecumenical councils, but that one's a great example)

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MysteriousLad
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by MysteriousLad » Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:01 pm

Yes god would need a cause if he had a beginning but he doesn't so he needs no cause. There is no rule, I repeat none, saying that everything has a cause. Only things that have a beginning have a cause. Also another point to think on, if everything in this universe has a cause that doesn't include him; as he is not of this universe. He created time and the rules of "causation" so he does not have to abide by them. Any being that doesn't abide in our universe does not have to abide by "our" laws.

My statement about Caesar was incorrect I agree but my point was there is a rather large amount of evidence that a man named Jesus walked on this earth and did some weird stuff.
Terragent wrote:The historical existence of Jesus is a moot point - what is not moot is that there aren't any non-Christian sources attesting to any of the multitude of miracles he's supposed to have performed; you know, the sort of things that would probably have caused a stir if they'd ever actually happened.
This argument is heavily invalid, why?:
Christians believe in the miracles of Jesus and the resurrection and your saying their evidence doesn't count. This is a "Heads-I-Win,Tails-You-Lose" situation and therefor you logic here is flawed and invalid.
If believing something took place makes your evidence invalid, then how can there be evidence for anything?

As for "the stir"; different people saw Jesus, they understood this as he rose from the dead. It is fact the tomb was empty and as for politics; no one would make two woman find the tomb as in Jewish culture woman were not taken seriously as legal witnesses so if you were making a dodgy story you would chose a well known man.
As for more stirring, thousands of people rapidly converted to Christ and it's still here today. You must be blind if you say there was "no stir". The Jewish Pharisees wanted him dead because of the miracles and also said he did them. They concluded that he was doing them through demons so if you want a non-Christian evidence look at the Jewish scholars of that time.

I'll go into the origins of the gospels later, as I did with the origins of Deuteronomy two religion topics ago. Dragonite can confirm.

Also, please provide evidence of contradicitons in the gospel and historical evidence please.
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Dragonite » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:19 pm

MysteriousLad wrote: I can't place my finger or what syndrome dit was but this guy had a feet that were 1-2 too small, he got prayed for next to me and I saw his foot grow. It was possibly the creepiest time of my life. This was at Newday a youth conference in England and was in 2012.
Other healings I've seen are people bound to wheelchairs getting up running and never needing them again or people with glasses seeing. The great thing about Newday is that they ask permission from the people and the doctors to see their medical reports to confirm if it's real. There are many false healings for money out there and that saddens me. Also getting healed isn't to do with your faith, there are many people who aren't healed and I can make a more detailed post later on it if you wish.
I've heard of stories like that before.. Fakery is sadly common with this, legs/food growing are common, so I need to be skeptical about it. You mention doctor reports and the like. Faith healing has a poor reputation on this area, also because experiments to get hard evidence have failed. Did some digging and found this:


http://newdaygeneration.org/blog/articl ... eals_today Chronic heart disease,doctor reports, and was running laps around the tent after the healing. I admit there's a part that me that's still bothered by reading stories like this. In 2011 I was confused for a few months when reading such stories from a dutch healer, who also has conservative theogy. I was very afraid that if those stories were true, such a horrible worldview also must be true.

edit: looked the disease up on wiki, and look:[edit]
Many POTS patients will see symptom improvement over the course of several years. Those who develop POTS in their early to mid teens during a period of rapid growth will most likely see complete symptom resolution in two to five years.[38] Patients with post-viral POTS will sometimes improve greatly or even see a full symptom resolution. Adults who develop POTS, especially women during or after pregnancy, usually see milder improvement and can be plagued with their condition for life.[citation needed] Rarely, a teenager who develops POTS will gradually worsen over time and have lifelong symptoms. Patients with secondary POTS as a consequence of Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome will also usually struggle with symptoms for life.[39] In some patients the only cure for POTS is time. So it's actually common to improve/heal on it's own.. For those not familiar with the disease, the article can suggest it's a chronic disease, and she was out of luck prior to the miracle. I can't back that up of course, but it's a example how many of these stories operate.

You say it hasn't got anything to do with faith, but that other healer did(and many others) I'd like more explaination on that yes. I'll be honest, I have a uneasy hatred of faith healing stories because of the murky line between ''healed'' people and people who aren't at such events, and in the later group there have been horrible stories. This is never addressed well, they advertise only the dramatic recoveries that seem to be impossible to happen naturally. Not to mention prayers for good health happen worldwide, and yet there hasn't been found any evidence Christians are healthier then other people. It's always these public events, huge audience, sometimes music to create a certain atmosphere. Always such a frenzied, miracles will happen here and now atmosphere.

There's this (slightly cliched) atheist argument against faith healing: God doesn't heal amputees ever. For some reason, this feat has always been to big. Often what's exactly healed isn't visible very well. Blind and deaf people sometimes have a small amount of vision/hearing left, which in some circumstances can trick them/the audience.

In that PM a few months ago you asked me what evidence would be Theism. Like I said earlier, things like this has thrown me off balance regarding it in the past. I already had become a atheist, but did more or less end up Christian again for a few months because I was so confused. It brought me no peace whatsoever. I explained here about the major injustice in the faith healing world, I spend days in confusion and fear about the ''why?''. The other thing is that everything else continued to point to atheism to me. Human psychology, our origins, the many things wrong with the bible.. I suffered from major cognitive dissonance regarding this. Because of my OCD tendencies it's still very easy to rattle me, but Theism as a logical, comprehensive worldview I can be truly happy, that has never truly happened. Not while theistic arguments always focus on things being improbable, special, and a absolute concept of God to plug anything that doesn't make any sense. Naturalistic thinking feels far more logical and right to explain the world, especially how all the ''good'' and ''bad'' things are actually caused and related.

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MysteriousLad
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by MysteriousLad » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:34 pm

Dragonite, what do you mean by stuff being incorrect in the Bible and human psychology pointing to atheism?
I agree that you need to be very skeptical about healings as many are faked sadly. However it is different when someone not from the organisation is healed who you know personally. As for the studies on God heres a Bible passage:
Deuteronomy 6:16 ESV
“You shall not put the Lord your God to the test, as you tested him at Massah."
Also what do you mean by not finding the theistic view "fulfilling"?
As for that "other healer" there are alot of false doctrines which people preach yet will have no back-up from the Bible.

@Terragent

Ok here's my thoughts on the Bible:

Objection #1 The Bible was written too far after the events actually happened to be considered reliable.

Bible accounts:
Mark and John were by two of the original disciples, they had been preaching to the world what they later wrote down around 30 years later around 70AD. Mark was written by Peters "secretary" meaning it's really Peter's gospel as transcribed by Mark.
Luke was a companion of Paul, an eyewitness to the resurrected Jesus and Christians all over the empire as he traveled. I see no dodgy figures here so that point is cleared. As for politics they weren't written with that in mind. And if they were how may I ask, did they all end up saying the same story as they written independently and not together as a group? Must be a big group of people all somehow coincidentally with the same delusion.

Just look at the beginning of Luke:
"Many people have set out to write accounts about the events fulfilled amongst us. They used eyewitness reports circulating among us from the early disciples. Having carefully investigates everything from the beginning, I also have decided to write a careful account for you, most honourable Theophilus, so you can be certain of the truth of everything you were taught." Luke 1:1-4

Luke was a scholar, he was likely well educated (Col. 4:14 tells us Luke was a physician, so he was likely well educated) and he wrote his account well within the life span of the companions of Jesus.
They may have walked around preaching an written their accounts down a few years later but that doesn't mean they are not to be trusted as they all add up together.

Non-Bible accounts:
The earliest portrayal of Christ is ironically a piece of graffiti meant to insult Jesus and Christians. It depicts a man with a donkey's head head being crucified and another man standing to the side, one hand outstretched. Beneath it is written a caption in Greek, "Alexanenos worships [his] God."
The early teachings of the crucified Jesus were seen as as ludicrous, which explains the image. But this satire corroborates an important fact: early Christians worshipped Jesus.
Also, two inscriptions found on ossuaries dated no later then 50AD are prayers addressed to Jesus. Other sources are Josephus, Tacitus and Pliny the Younger who mention facts about Jesus and his followers that line up with the New Testament.

Objection #2 The Bible was copied and translated so many times that it surely has been corrupted.

This objection is so common it's not even funny. The Bible wasn't translated and copied like the child game "Telephone," where a story is passed from on to the other to see what the story becomes at the end.
All reputable versions begin with the oldest and best Greek manuscripts (NT) and Hebrew manuscripts (OT) that we posses and are translated directly.

Objection #3 The Gospels chosen for the Bible.

The gospels that were chosen to go into the Bible were the earliest gospels written. Most of the other "Gospels" were written in second to fourth centuries. The ones in the Bible were written in the first century during the life time of the disciples. The ones now in the NT are approved by the apostles at the end of the 1st century.
One of these false gospels (as a side note Jesus warned about these false gospels) is the "Gospel" of Thomas that was claimed to be written by Thomas, the disciple of Jesus. The problem is it was written a hundred years to late to be written by Thomas.
Here are some quotes from it:

"Every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven." (Saying 114)

Or

"Blessings on the lion if a human eats it, making the lion human. Foul is the human if a lion eats it, making the lion human" (Saying 7)

Could you point out how politics influenced the gospels?
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
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Dragonite
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Dragonite » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:44 pm

It's Jan Zeilstra ML. You might have heard of him. By now he's left his church in Leiderdorp because of a conflict, but I still often drive past that huge, expensive building with a red neon cross sticking out like a sore thumb at night. He always pins it on the person's faith in the cause the healing fails.

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Sven

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by Sven » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:45 pm

sorry terragent i am going to go get out my aten sundisk and begin my prayer chants as all evidence points to his divine mastery of our world. i daresay we have boglad on our hands.

goodbye atheism hello sun cult.

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MysteriousLad
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion; Is there a God?

Post by MysteriousLad » Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:04 pm

Dragonite wrote:It's Jan Zeilstra ML. You might have heard of him. By now he's left his church in Leiderdorp because of a conflict, but I still often drive past that huge, expensive building with a red neon cross sticking out like a sore thumb at night. He always pins it on the person's faith in the cause the healing fails.
https://bible.org/question/why-are-some ... it-demonic
This is along the line of what I believe, we still live in a fallen world so sickness is still a part of it. When you become a christian you aren't made into superman, no, a process starts which will finish on the day all are resurrected and judged. From then on we will be free from this. God heals some a sign to them or others but it is clear in the Bible you shouldn't test the Lord. Not being healed because of personal faith is nonsense in my opinion. God heals whoever he wants, we don't deserve healing so if you are healed take it as a gift. Not every needs to be healed and God doesn't hate you if you don't get healed.
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

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Organized crime is selling bagels on television? Since when? ~Dragon Fogel

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