WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

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Narts
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: ISIS and Radical Islamics (Ends 29

Post by Narts » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:46 am

As a political conflict, it makes zero sense. You simply don't declare war against the entire fudge world and expect to win unless you think you'll be saved by some kind of divine intervention.

No, their perspective is that their literal interpretation of the Quran is the only right one and all disbelievers must die. They're zealots.

I do sort of respect their resolve and consistency in choosing one ideology and sticking to it. While the rest of the world, the so called "moderates", pick and choose from their religions what they happen to like while ignoring the parts that tell them to kill and murder and enslave and do all kinds of fudge up things, because THE WORD OF GOD is apparently just flexible that way.

No, ISIS is just another example of what happens when people actually take religion seriously and another reason why religion, wherever it is to be found, in whatever form, must be uprooted and beaten back to the middle ages where it belongs.

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Dragonite
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: ISIS and Radical Islamics (Ends 29

Post by Dragonite » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:15 am

It's generally difficult to pinpoint the exact role of religion in this sort of thing. Like you said, there's a role of it, but religion is very much interwoven with everything in a society where a high percentage of people adhere to the same faith. Maybe IS wouldn't have happened if the former president/prime minister(I forgot exact function) wouldn't have driven tensions to boiling points. I actually spend a good deal fretting about my post of yesterday. I don't want to back down on stuff for the sake of backing down, but I am walking on eggshells with it. Religion does remain a vague topic by nature, and whenever it's invoked in something truly controversial, it just goes nuclear.

Still.. The world needs to defuse IS somehow. By the looks of it now, they will probably linger around as a Taliban-like group if their military hold of the area is broken. Ideology is a huge part of IS staying a coherent group, and them seducing people to join their ranks in their ''jihad''. To truly defeat them, you have to break that spell. How?

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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: ISIS and Radical Islamics (Ends 29

Post by daisy » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:21 am

Narts: They don't expect to win by direct means. Bin Laden said that the Islamists would win by "bleeding America dry" just as they "did with the Russians." One could argue that he's succeeding, even in death. The West has done a lot to piss off pretty much everyone in that part of the world.

I find your last sentence intriguing. Would you want all religions banned and persecuted by law? North Korea style?

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Narts
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: ISIS and Radical Islamics (Ends 29

Post by Narts » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:49 am

Well Bin Laden and Al Qaida's strategy worked as well as it did because they relied on asymmetric warfare which is pretty much all you can rely on when you are up against as immensely powerful enemies as Russia and America.

ISIS, however, has shifted that strategy quite squarely into the direct means. They are forming a state that fights conventional war against other groups and states, on multiple fronts no less. That means they can also be defeated by direct means. They are basically digging their own grave there. I'm not surprised that Al-Qaida wants no part in that.

I don't want religions banned, I want people to realise how stupid they are and abandon them by their own accord. Spread the message of enlightenment and rationalism to combat the grip that the ignorance and savagery of the ancient religions has on people's minds, basically. We need to collectively relegate all that god and spirits nonsense into the same trash bin we keep the old pagan beliefs and mythologies in. Silly stories from a less enlightened past.

As long as we tolerate mystical thinking in our midst and maintain laws to protect it from the ridicule it rightly deserves, extreme groups have a leg to stand on and have a large pool of gullible people to recruit from. Do you see followers of the Greek pantheon or the Norse gods recruiting impressionable youths to join them in holy war against modern monotheistic religions? Exactly.

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Sven

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: ISIS and Radical Islamics (Ends 29

Post by Sven » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:23 pm

Do you see followers of the Greek pantheon or the Norse gods recruiting impressionable youths to join them in holy war against modern monotheistic religions?
i'll take what are fraternities and the metal subgenre for 1000 alex.

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Linkman
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: ISIS and Radical Islamics (Ends 29

Post by Linkman » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:26 pm

"This thrash metal band was formed by a former Metallica member."
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: ISIS and Radical Islamics (Ends 29

Post by Bonesy » Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:36 am

what is megadeth

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Dragonite
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: ISIS and Radical Islamics (Ends 29

Post by Dragonite » Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:18 am

Since the old subject seems to be mostly dead.. I'm going to do a little ''bonus round''.

Dutch people might guess what I'm going to show because it's a hot topic here.
What do all non-dutch people think about this on first glance? Right now the public debate is getting messy, so I felt like asking the forum FOR SCIENCE. No need to really discuss it, going with gut feeling is enough.
Spoiler: show
Image Some might already know it's the dutch ''black Pete'', which is a beloved character in a dutch tradition that's a varation of what Christmas is(actually closer to the man they are both based off). Following some complaints about racism, and legal complaints about it, the public debate is now erupting like a volcano. There are conflicting accounts how racists his roots are, and also if keeping Black Pete as he's now is racism or not. Somebody from the UN already gave vocal complaints last year. Are we dutchies having a blind spot about this?

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HPD
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: ISIS and Radical Islamics (Ends 29

Post by HPD » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:20 am

Honestly, that'll be one heck of a difficult call to make if you're not well-acquainted with the whole lore associated with it.
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Dragonite
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: ISIS and Radical Islamics (Ends 29

Post by Dragonite » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:22 am

I can explain more about it later. I'm curious about exactly that.

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MysteriousLad
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: ISIS and Radical Islamics (Ends 29

Post by MysteriousLad » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:53 am

Dragonite wrote:I can explain more about it later. I'm curious about exactly that.
Please leave out the proposed cheese and biscuit piet.
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Dragonite
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: ISIS and Radical Islamics (Ends 29

Post by Dragonite » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:30 am

MysteriousLad wrote:
Dragonite wrote:I can explain more about it later. I'm curious about exactly that.
Please leave out the proposed cheese and biscuit piet.
Ugh, yeah, those sounded dull indeed.

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Narts
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Is the Dutch "Black-Piet" racist?

Post by Narts » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:10 am

like most cultural non-issues that feminist and anti-racist and other professional offendees get all triggered about these days it's simply retarded to debate something like this

guess me answer is "no, go choke on a dick"

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MysteriousLad
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Is the Dutch "Black-Piet" racist?

Post by MysteriousLad » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:16 pm

Narts wrote:like most cultural non-issues that feminist and anti-racist and other professional offendees get all triggered about these days it's simply retarded to debate something like this

guess me answer is "no, go choke on a dick"
Oi, let us Dutch make a fuss out of our rainbow black men that deliver prezzies in the night serving a white saint.
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
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daisy
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Is the Dutch "Black-Piet" racist?

Post by daisy » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:21 am

Narts wrote:like most cultural non-issues that feminist and anti-racist and other professional offendees get all triggered about these days it's simply retarded to debate something like this

guess me answer is "no, go choke on a dick"

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MysteriousLad
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by MysteriousLad » Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:39 am

So it was a few months ago that we had are last religious ran... *cough* debate so I think it's time to bring it back up as posts here feel like they have dropped in Happy Idiot Talk. Instead of only "God" or "Religion" being discussed anything non-natural is up for discussion, this broadens the topic. Now my beliefs have changed:

Most of you know I'm Christian, that's stayed the same. What's changed is my views with "How we got here". I was an Old Earth Creationist (I'll use OEC for this, YEC for Young Earth Creationism and TE for Theistic Evolution.), I believed that the periods of time weren't litteral and that God created us as humans and animals himself and the rest through big bang physics stuff. I'm now a Theistic Evolutionist, what precisely I now believe and why I'll explain later.

It started with Monkymeets little rant at creationists, I decided I wanted to relook what I thought. I went to a library and got a lot of books on the topic; Creationist books, responces to these from *Atheist* Evolutionists, books on Evolution in general (Thanks Dawkins) and the likes. It turned out what I thought was wrong, I was making use of a big "God of gaps". I thought as there were some holes (a lot smaller than I used to think) in the evolution theory that it wasn't correct, this was caused by me being self-biased and slightly ignorant. I realised that I don't apply the standards to say, the Theory of relativity.
Another big factor was me seeing that there basically is no evidence for creationism. I would use "evidence" against evolution to try and prove creationism, this is a fallacy. If A is wrong B is right, however I'm not considering a possible C or even Z. This was as said before my belief in the "God of gaps".
During my searches for information I stumbled across Biologos, founded by Francis Collins. I knew people believed in Evolution and God but I never took it seriously, Biologos was the last thing pushing me across the line of leaving creationism. (Biologos is an organization that promotes harmony between faith and science.)


I now believe that Adam and Eve didn't exist and that humans evolved from some common anscestor. Who that was and how it got here I don't know. God made his presence known to man and they also recieved morality, man however disobeyed as we still do and that is "the spiritual fall". Other stories in Genesis I don't know what to think of. Take Noah's ark for instance, I could accept a local flood due to glaciers or the likes, however a world wide flood is unlikely IMO. I've also realised that you can fit nearly all creationists into the following 4 categories:
1. Fundemantalist's who refuse to think of the possibility of TE, this is cause by lack of education or cultural reasons.
2. People who doubt their views but are scared that if people take Genesis less litteraly the Bible and God will loose worth/authority.
3. People who simply don't know what evolution is.
4. People like me who are trying to not be biased but due to culture or other causes don't want to let go.

Well, enough about me. Dicuss yourselves :)
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
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daisy
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by daisy » Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:05 pm

Good for you. Well done on taking the first step out of bondage.

While the above sentences are sincere, I don't think most of us don't really care to discuss religion anymore. I'm basically an atheist now and I don't really want to open up old wounds.

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hawkesnightmare
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by hawkesnightmare » Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:24 pm

I simply believe that someone calling himself God put a couple people on this planet as a science experiment (My actual belief structure is a bit more complicated, but that's what it boils down to).
daisy: If the UK is worse than the present #5 in the world in terms of GDP come July 1st 2018 I will dye my hair pink.

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MysteriousLad
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by MysteriousLad » Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:01 pm

hawkesnightmare wrote:I simply believe that someone calling himself God put a couple people on this planet as a science experiment (My actual belief structure is a bit more complicated, but that's what it boils down to).
So your a deist of sorts?
@Bog
You don't need to discuss if you don't want to, that's fine.
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

And logic doesn't work on MysteriousLad... ~Kireato
Wait, wait, wait.

Organized crime is selling bagels on television? Since when? ~Dragon Fogel

daisy
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by daisy » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:04 am

MysteriousLad wrote:@Bog
You don't need to discuss if you don't want to, that's fine.
It's not that. It's that the only people who are going to properly respond are Dragonite and Hawkesnightmare. It'll be the same cliche'd conversation all over again, then Narts/Sven will come in, tell everyone they're retarded and the topic'll be locked within 24 hours. No one really cares. Maybe this sorta thing is best talked about in a private chat room between you guys or something.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure HN is trolling and not serious.

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hawkesnightmare
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by hawkesnightmare » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:54 am

Actually, I'm very serious. As I said, the actual belief set is more complicated and less fantastical, but for the purposes of being concise, that's the basics.

And yes, ML. I believe there is some sort of deity (or being more powerful than us that calls itself a deity) but it's not necessarily benign.
daisy: If the UK is worse than the present #5 in the world in terms of GDP come July 1st 2018 I will dye my hair pink.

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MysteriousLad
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by MysteriousLad » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:22 am

hawkesnightmare wrote:Actually, I'm very serious. As I said, the actual belief set is more complicated and less fantastical, but for the purposes of being concise, that's the basics.

And yes, ML. I believe there is some sort of deity (or being more powerful than us that calls itself a deity) but it's not necessarily benign.
Care to not be consise?
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

And logic doesn't work on MysteriousLad... ~Kireato
Wait, wait, wait.

Organized crime is selling bagels on television? Since when? ~Dragon Fogel

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hawkesnightmare
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by hawkesnightmare » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:12 am

Now that I think about it a bit, it's not too much longer than what I've already said. I think that there is/was some extraterrestrial being that test-tube-babied people onto the world (Adam and Eve) along with everything else, and attempted to see if it could make them start a civilization and maintain complete control over their thoughts, beliefs and whatnot. Now, Lucifer could either be God's coworker or some crumpets trying to mess up the experiment, or he could be working in tandem with "God" and was testing the limits of A&E's obedience (obviously didn't get very far).
OR
God legitimately wanted a planet of thought-slaves and when Lucifer screwed it up, he got pissed, which explains the Ark, Sodom and Gomorrah, and all the seemingly pointless wars over land. After a few millenia, God realizes that control by force isn't working too well. So he foreshadows the coming of a savior and later sends his kid, Jesus, to preach love and tolerance, hoping it will win over their hearts better than all of the death and destruction from before.

If there's anything else you're confused about that I haven't covered, go ahead and ask.
daisy: If the UK is worse than the present #5 in the world in terms of GDP come July 1st 2018 I will dye my hair pink.

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MysteriousLad
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by MysteriousLad » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:47 am

Is this a troll or not?
However from what I can tell is that you're not an every day Deist as you believe the Bible (in a twisted way) and you believe in a deity that can intervene with life.
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

And logic doesn't work on MysteriousLad... ~Kireato
Wait, wait, wait.

Organized crime is selling bagels on television? Since when? ~Dragon Fogel

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Dragonite
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by Dragonite » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:01 am

By the looks of it he's serious. And if that is what you really believe Hawke... Doesn't scare that the crap out of you?

I'm a naturalist/atheist now, but... I've had experiences of that sort in the past. Not really evil god, but I already found a lot of ''naturalistic'' things confirmed back in the day, but I couldn't be sure if that just meant God didn't exist because I didn't want to. And God doing various things on purpose... that was really scary and depressing.

But yeah, to be blunt, this does come across as somewhat unhinged. You were a regular Christian just a few months ago too. Why did that change so much? And if you're really serious, like ML said, why do you hold to various aspects of the Christian faith in a twisted way? Whatever what is going on, try to take a step back whatever is now dicating your worldview. Why would something like this even make sense? I'm a bit worried about you.

Oh, and in general ML, I guess I could take another shot at discussion, but like Daisy said, there's not much chance of anything new popping up. I'm still would like too, also because I respect the way you're handling all this. What do you expect out of this? Do you want your worldview challenged?

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hawkesnightmare
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by hawkesnightmare » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:22 am

Dragonite wrote:And if that is what you really believe Hawke... Doesn't scare that the crap out of you?
Keep in mind I never said the self-named God is evil. Just that he is not as perfect as he says he is. He is prone to mistakes, just like everyone else.
I also don't believe God is all powerful. If he was, he would have either:
A. Not created Lucifer
B. Killed him as soon as he defected from the army of angels
C. Not put the Tree of Life and Knowledge in the Garden of Eden
or D. Not created Adam and Eve with such malleable minds
or anything else that an all powerful deity can do.
daisy: If the UK is worse than the present #5 in the world in terms of GDP come July 1st 2018 I will dye my hair pink.

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hawkesnightmare
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by hawkesnightmare » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:31 am

Dragonite wrote:But yeah, to be blunt, this does come across as somewhat unhinged. You were a regular Christian just a few months ago too.
I guess that nasty argument with Bog was a "last stand" sort of thing with my faith. Not unlike a star going supernova before dying.
Dragonite wrote:Why did that change so much?
I took a step back and assessed my entire belief system, and as most athiests say, stuff simply didn't add up.
Dragonite wrote:And if you're really serious, like ML said, why do you hold to various aspects of the Christian faith in a twisted way?
I simply imagined what humans would do if we discovered a planet that could house life. Our first idea would be to try to colonize it. But if we discovered that WE couldn't live there, but salamanders could? We'd just put them there and let them do their thing. This is sort of what I think God did. Except he intervened quite a bit.
Dragonite wrote:Whatever what is going on, try to take a step back whatever is now dicating your worldview. Why would something like this even make sense? I'm a bit worried about you.
It certainly makes less sense (to you) than regular atheism and evolution do, but it makes heaps more sense than run-of-the-mill Christianity.

Sorry for the double post.
daisy: If the UK is worse than the present #5 in the world in terms of GDP come July 1st 2018 I will dye my hair pink.

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MysteriousLad
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by MysteriousLad » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:03 pm

Dragonite wrote:By the looks of it he's serious. And if that is what you really believe Hawke... Doesn't scare that the crap out of you?

I'm a naturalist/atheist now, but... I've had experiences of that sort in the past. Not really evil god, but I already found a lot of ''naturalistic'' things confirmed back in the day, but I couldn't be sure if that just meant God didn't exist because I didn't want to. And God doing various things on purpose... that was really scary and depressing.

But yeah, to be blunt, this does come across as somewhat unhinged. You were a regular Christian just a few months ago too. Why did that change so much? And if you're really serious, like ML said, why do you hold to various aspects of the Christian faith in a twisted way? Whatever what is going on, try to take a step back whatever is now dicating your worldview. Why would something like this even make sense? I'm a bit worried about you.

Oh, and in general ML, I guess I could take another shot at discussion, but like Daisy said, there's not much chance of anything new popping up. I'm still would like too, also because I respect the way you're handling all this. What do you expect out of this? Do you want your worldview challenged?
I dunno, I just enjoy debating. I'd happily discuss any other topic however I couldn't of any.
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

And logic doesn't work on MysteriousLad... ~Kireato
Wait, wait, wait.

Organized crime is selling bagels on television? Since when? ~Dragon Fogel

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MysteriousLad
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by MysteriousLad » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:06 pm

hawkesnightmare wrote:
Dragonite wrote:And if that is what you really believe Hawke... Doesn't scare that the crap out of you?
Keep in mind I never said the self-named God is evil. Just that he is not as perfect as he says he is. He is prone to mistakes, just like everyone else.
I also don't believe God is all powerful. If he was, he would have either:
A. Not created Lucifer
B. Killed him as soon as he defected from the army of angels
C. Not put the Tree of Life and Knowledge in the Garden of Eden
or D. Not created Adam and Eve with such malleable minds
or anything else that an all powerful deity can do.
So the problem of evil, let's delve into philosophy. Also intrestingly for you C/D never exsisted for me, the tree of life thing was a problem for me as well.
Also is it true you deny evolution?
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

And logic doesn't work on MysteriousLad... ~Kireato
Wait, wait, wait.

Organized crime is selling bagels on television? Since when? ~Dragon Fogel

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hawkesnightmare
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by hawkesnightmare » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:37 am

I deny that it happened HERE. Yes, there is tons of evidence that points to a progression of animals, but there are a few missing links (species either gone extinct before they were moved here or would not have survived?) and if it was something God set into motion, I think it would have been said a little differently in the Bible, instead of "I made all the things" and made it seem like it was instantaneous.

As a side note, I think the planet itself is a bajillion years old, but the life on it is much, much younger.
daisy: If the UK is worse than the present #5 in the world in terms of GDP come July 1st 2018 I will dye my hair pink.

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MysteriousLad
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by MysteriousLad » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:38 am

hawkesnightmare wrote:I deny that it happened HERE. Yes, there is tons of evidence that points to a progression of animals, but there are a few missing links (species either gone extinct before they were moved here or would not have survived?) and if it was something God set into motion, I think it would have been said a little differently in the Bible, instead of "I made all the things" and made it seem like it was instantaneous.

As a side note, I think the planet itself is a bajillion years old, but the life on it is much, much younger.
Correct me if I'm mistaken but you seem to be reffering to gaps in the fossil record or am I wrong? One of the things I realised is that these fossils are not key to actually proving Evolution, it can be given evidence from many other sources (Actually looking into DNA patterns etc.). The fossil records back up evolution with the many fossils we are lucky to have.

As for the direct tone in Genesis it see it differently:
Genesis wrote:And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Take this for example, "Let the earth bring forth grass" it seems he didn't directly but allowed the warth to do it. I see this by a way of evolution leading to plants, the earth brang forth using evolution.
Others believe god placed life which evolved further, othere still believe he guided evolution. I believe neither however an all knowing god would know we would emerge at the end of a line of genetic changes. That's what I think.

Also, if you're taking the Bible as a diety's way of control, why the Christian/Jewish holy book?
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

And logic doesn't work on MysteriousLad... ~Kireato
Wait, wait, wait.

Organized crime is selling bagels on television? Since when? ~Dragon Fogel

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Sven

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by Sven » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:06 am

daisy wrote:
MysteriousLad wrote:@Bog
You don't need to discuss if you don't want to, that's fine.
It's not that. It's that the only people who are going to properly respond are Dragonite and Hawkesnightmare. It'll be the same cliche'd conversation all over again, then Narts/Sven will come in, tell everyone they're retarded and the topic'll be locked within 24 hours. No one really cares. Maybe this sorta thing is best talked about in a private chat room between you guys or something.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure HN is trolling and not serious.
pretty much. at the end of the day you can believe whatever you want to believe, even if all available evidence indicates the belief is wrong. am i really supposed to do something other than call the person ignorant at this point?

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hawkesnightmare
Rank: Mister Lister The Sister Fister
Location: A Bank Vault

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by hawkesnightmare » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:34 am

Yes, we lack both the animals themselves and any fossil of said animals. (This next analogy will be bad, but bear with me) If we still have pidgeons and we still have doves, but the animal between pidgeons and doves is missing...why? Both birds are doing really well in present day, so why is the intermediary gone? If evolution is truly random and only beneficial mutations survive, then there would still be the dove/pidgeon intermediary. Unless of course, there was some horrible thing that went wrong with it, in which case you ask "how is the dove here then? If the other bird could never make it, then the doves wouldn't exist either."


Ah, that's from KJV. I've only ever read NIV and a bit of ESV. Some stuff gets lost when translating from fancy speak to fairly regular speech. NIV dumbs it down a bit and basically says "The plants will bear fruit according to their various kinds" which obviously just means "apple trees will make apples, etc." ESV says nearly the exact same thing. Obviously, if one of us could read Hebrew or Greek, it would be much easier, since we could just go straight to the source and see how it's phrased, but unless you're holding back secrets, that path is unavailable. I also don't trust other random people to translate it for me, since they could easily change something to fit a certain viewpoint.


Because it's the only one that claims to have been written (breathed, whatever) directly by the deity itself. The Qur'an was written by Muhammed as he was getting "revelations". That is, Allah didn't say "hey write this all down". Muhammed just did. Also, it was written from ca. 600 AD to 632 AD. The Bible claims to have started at literally the very beginning. It's sort of a seniority thing.

That, and the Qur'an has more direct contradictions than the Bible. It constantly flips between "forgive the nonbelievers" and "the heathens will get what's coming to them".
daisy: If the UK is worse than the present #5 in the world in terms of GDP come July 1st 2018 I will dye my hair pink.

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Sven

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by Sven » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:17 am

i don't even

yeah im gonna let someone else field this one

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Pkdragon
Rank: the mafia with a mouth

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by Pkdragon » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:00 am

we're back to religion then?

we need a FRESH debate topic. like again, i suggest we debate mangos
HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

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hawkesnightmare
Rank: Mister Lister The Sister Fister
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Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by hawkesnightmare » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:25 am

Sven wrote:i don't even

yeah im gonna let someone else field this one
I know, I've gone crazy.
Pkdragon wrote:we're back to religion then?

we need a FRESH debate topic. like again, i suggest we debate mangos
I'm very picky with mangos. Sometimes I like them, sometimes not. Almost always when they're in a smoothie though.
daisy: If the UK is worse than the present #5 in the world in terms of GDP come July 1st 2018 I will dye my hair pink.

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Dragonite
Rank: My face is beaming.
Location: the netherlands(mostly)

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by Dragonite » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:47 am

Let me go about this differently. I'm not really attempting to go about this respectfully, because you're just not making any rational sense. You no longer really hold the bible as a absolute truth, because you're adopted a Dystheistic viewpoint(AKA god is not wholly good, or just plain evil). Yet you still hold into some very specific bits(adam and eve, etc) which have no extra-biblical evidence.How did you slip from usual Christianity, but yet you keep taking so much of at face value? You also just ignore any other religion or supernatural/alien explaination out there in trying to fit all the pieces together. You're also quick to just casually shoot down Islam, while the Bible doesn't fare much better in actual historical support. The bible does claim stuff about being first. So what? Because it's a divine book and all? But if your God may not be good, then what logic is left there?

It seems to me you're giving your original views a huge bias over any other sort of logic. How did you deduce all the details of how everything went? Did you just know God was in it for the lawful thought control? I'm sorry, but can't express myself in any other way then just stressing how swallow your logic is.

You've explained a lot, but you're haven't told us much about how your views make you feel. Are you truly convinced about all of this? If so, doesn't it make you uncomfortable every time you discuss it?

daisy
Rank: Crucified in the Great Meme War

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by daisy » Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:37 am

Sven wrote:i don't even

yeah im gonna let someone else field this one
Okay.
hawkesnightmare wrote:Because it's the only one that claims to have been written (breathed, whatever) directly by the deity itself. The Qur'an was written by Muhammed as he was getting "revelations". That is, Allah didn't say "hey write this all down". Muhammed just did. Also, it was written from ca. 600 AD to 632 AD. The Bible claims to have started at literally the very beginning. It's sort of a seniority thing.

That, and the Qur'an has more direct contradictions than the Bible. It constantly flips between "forgive the nonbelievers" and "the heathens will get what's coming to them".
Please don't talk about what you don't understand. Muslims believe that the Bible ("The Book") is also the word of God. However, they also believe that it's been corrupted. The Qur'an is an addtion to the Old and New Testaments, not a replacement. Furthermore, the Qur'an revels in the contradictions - stuff that comes later is seen as more holy than stuff that comes before. Most Muslims would not say that the Qur'an doesn't have any contradictions. (They might say it is "without error", but that's slightly different.) Do some fudge research. Or even better, read it for yourself instead of relying on hearsay. It's not a long book - only slightly longer than the Book of Job.

Draggy: If something makes you unhappy that doesn't make it untrue. Not that I endorse what he's saying. I also get the feeling that you're interpreting the Bible (a Middle Eastern text) from a Western perspective. The Torah was never written to be a historical record.

I'm not here to argue any position, I'm just here to supply the facts.

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Dragonite
Rank: My face is beaming.
Location: the netherlands(mostly)

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by Dragonite » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:11 pm

I'm well aware of the first line daisy, was the reason I ended up experiencing the things I did.

My specific interpretation is that the various groups who contributed where pushing a specific religious/political agenda, to be specific(doing this more to make myself clear).Whatever the exact position may be, the important thing is that the torah has pretty mundane orgins, being a human work. Lifting the mysterious 'divine' veil around the subject is all that is relevant. Especially since hawke has adopted a unusual stance towards it. Putting it on a pedestal without valid reason is just dangerous.

I'm still trying to improve my knowledge about it, but life has been draining me to much to pull off any serious research.

daisy
Rank: Crucified in the Great Meme War

Re: WWN's Debate Topic: Religion and the Supernatural

Post by daisy » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:13 pm

Then don't:

- Query Hawke's beliefs due to their inability to make him happy.
or
- Dismiss the Bible on grounds of historical accuracy.

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