France Paris Attacks

WWN's Social Lounge. The place to come and chill out for a relaxed conversation about life and stuff, or some more serious debates.
User avatar
MysteriousLad
Rank: Mysterious President
Location: In your computer.

France Paris Attacks

Post by MysteriousLad » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:24 pm

Deary fudge me, for those that don't already know there's been a series of coordinated attacks in Paris claimed by IS with 128 deaths so far registered and 200 or so in hospital with 99 in critical condition.

I can only wonder at what this is going to cause politically soon.
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

And logic doesn't work on MysteriousLad... ~Kireato
Wait, wait, wait.

Organized crime is selling bagels on television? Since when? ~Dragon Fogel

User avatar
Dragonite
Rank: My face is beaming.
Location: the netherlands(mostly)

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Dragonite » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:56 pm

I have no idea about the political impact, this is huge, especially because so much gunfire was involved.
Backlash against refugees is also feared, and there's a huge debate about what forces are to blame again, mostly about religion.
IS might also be responsible for the Russian plane bombing. I'm confused about IS's current goals. What do they hope to accomplish? If they go on like this sooner or later a more severe western reaction will follow. What is the strategic sense of this? It will eventually lead to their own destruction, and a lot of bloodshed everywhere.

User avatar
Narts

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Narts » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:38 am

I'm confused about IS's current goals. What do they hope to accomplish? If they go on like this sooner or later a more severe western reaction will follow. What is the strategic sense of this? It will eventually lead to their own destruction, and a lot of bloodshed everywhere.
From what I understand (more or less from reading this analysis: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... ts/384980/) that's exactly what they want. They don't actually care about winning the war or anything like that they just want the west to invade some irrelevant village in Syria because they believe that will bring on the Apocalypse or something (and they think that would be the best thing that could possibly happen) Indeed their strategy would make little sense otherwise - now that they've become a clear threat to the West it won't be long before they're stamped out.

In any case, IS should stop fooling around bombing people and release AW5.

User avatar
Linkman
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Master of Fiction

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Linkman » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:12 am

It's like the old communist ideal, that proposed the wealthy should treat the poor as bad as possible, as to agitate the inevitable revolution. IS wants the backlash from the west.

I am sad for the victims. And before any of you come here saying "this kind of stuff happens in Syria/Irak/etc every day", come on, it doesn't make this any less terrible.
"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
"I can't believe I'm the only person who voted Stallone. His appeal lies in watching is movies again and again just to hear what the hell he's talking about." - Kilteh

User avatar
MysteriousLad
Rank: Mysterious President
Location: In your computer.

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by MysteriousLad » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:54 am

Weren't Satel and Airnike from Paris?
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

And logic doesn't work on MysteriousLad... ~Kireato
Wait, wait, wait.

Organized crime is selling bagels on television? Since when? ~Dragon Fogel

Lambda

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Lambda » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:22 am

MysteriousLad wrote:Weren't Satel and Airnike from Paris?
iirc no, they were from somewhere else in France

User avatar
monkymeet
Rank: Bitch
3DS Code: 3480-3067-3928

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by monkymeet » Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:51 am

nous sommes tous Parisiens
imageshack swallowed up my sig. This is a placeholder.

User avatar
Treedweller

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Treedweller » Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:11 am

Linkman wrote:I am sad for the victims. And before any of you come here saying "this kind of stuff happens in Syria/Irak/etc every day", come on, it doesn't make this any less terrible.
You're right, Linky - it doesn't make this any less terrible. I feel for the victims and their loved ones, and for this to happen in Paris (the cliched artistic, romantic, and gastronomic capital of Europe) is symbolic. I was following Le Monde last night, and everything felt odd and unreal.

I do worry that, in the aftermath, Europe will see even more support for its far-right fascist groups, and the Syrian refugee crisis will be seen as a cause rather than a symptom of these attacks. I also worry that European politicians will use the tragedy as an excuse to further surveil and impinge on the democratic rights of their populations.

I should add that Beirut saw similar attacks the day before, too. The coverage hasn't been as thorough, but I'm glad to see some of the media pick up on the story, too. The combined effect of the attacks shook me, and I'm not yet entirely sure what to say or think.

User avatar
scraggypunk
Rank: legendary cartographer
Location: deoxy knight

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by scraggypunk » Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:17 am

i hope people haven't been being crumpets to you, treed
wisdom
"the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread" - anatole france

User avatar
Treedweller

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Treedweller » Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:49 am

For the most part, they haven't. I only had one crumpets message waiting for me this morning from a high school classmate who I hadn't spoken to in years. He saw then misinterpreted a comment I made about the attacks, then decided that he needed to give me a piece of his mind. He's not very smart - the poor dear. But, for the most part, I don't face the same degree of racism that immigrants or people more brown than me face, even after attacks like these.

Thanks, darling - you're the best.

User avatar
scraggypunk
Rank: legendary cartographer
Location: deoxy knight

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by scraggypunk » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:10 am

that's good. stay strong
wisdom
"the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread" - anatole france

User avatar
Sven

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Sven » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:11 pm

Europe will see even more support for its far-right fascist groups, and the Syrian refugee crisis will be seen as a cause rather than a symptom of these attacks. I also worry that European politicians will use the tragedy as an excuse to further surveil and impinge on the democratic rights of their populations.

Pretty much. It's not only Europe either.

https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comment ... stance_on/

The comments at the head of comment chains are all fairly reasonable (you'd see the same stuff said by conservatives here). Just don't go further into some of the comment chains. My fudge god, crumpets is awful.

User avatar
Treedweller

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Treedweller » Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:41 pm

I'm imagining an alternate universe where the Paris attacks happened right before the Canadian federal election, and Stephen Harper eked by with another victory by riffing even harder on refugees and Islamophobia. What a nightmarish thought.

User avatar
Linkman
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Master of Fiction

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Linkman » Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:46 pm

Yes, the concerns are very legit :/ Let's hope things develop for the better.
"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
"I can't believe I'm the only person who voted Stallone. His appeal lies in watching is movies again and again just to hear what the hell he's talking about." - Kilteh

User avatar
Terragent
Rank: Cussing Aussie
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Terragent » Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:05 pm

Treedweller wrote:I'm imagining an alternate universe where the Paris attacks happened right before the Canadian federal election, and Stephen Harper eked by with another victory by riffing even harder on refugees and Islamophobia. What a nightmarish thought.
That is exactly what happened in Australia in 2001. You guys got lucky.

ThunderWalker
Rank: Elf
Location: Netherlands

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by ThunderWalker » Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:19 pm

In the Netherlands we have that fake blonde. Who the hell even understands his rants against immigrants, especially considering his wife is a Romanian and he's the son of Indonesian immigrants himself...
He'll certainly make profit out of this and the repeating immigrants. But as we take what Sven quoted:
Europe will see even more support for its far-right fascist groups, and the Syrian refugee crisis will be seen as a cause rather than a symptom of these attacks. I also worry that European politicians will use the tragedy as an excuse to further surveil and impinge on the democratic rights of their populations.
This especially.

Part of the issues in the Middle-East are also caused by the second American invasion of Iraq and the repeated wars that have ravaged Afghanistan since 1979, which were partially Russian and partly American caused. Like someone said on another forum; if you are afraid to get stung by bees, don't go fooling around with the beehive.

@Linkman: I'm too pessimistic to believe this develops for the better.
The best that we can hope to come out of it is that Russia and the USA decided to forget their issues with each other because they consider IS being more important.
My sig is a void.

User avatar
Dragonite
Rank: My face is beaming.
Location: the netherlands(mostly)

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Dragonite » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:09 am

By now the facebook french flag profile edit is becoming a tad controversial. I understand why, but I'm just letting it time out, quickly reverting just feels wrong. I was aware of the other tragedies named(press usually covers it, but it's easy to miss), and I don't fully agree with the notion focusing on Paris automatically makes one ignorant.I will admit changing your profile en masse gives a appealing feeling because you feel like part of a positive group. Social media politics are getting more complex..
Last edited by Dragonite on Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
HPD
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Mentat
Location: The Mountain

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by HPD » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:22 am

I don't really see how changing my fb profile pic is going to help anybody
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

User avatar
scraggypunk
Rank: legendary cartographer
Location: deoxy knight

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by scraggypunk » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:32 am

succumb to peer pressure

alternatively: don't have a facebook
wisdom
"the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread" - anatole france

User avatar
Xenesis
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Hydrocarbon Inspector
3DS Code: 2535-4646-7163
Location: 0x020232DD

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Xenesis » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:48 am

Personally, I'm just avoiding social media and the news for the next week.

Being selfish, but I don't need all that extra stress.
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

User avatar
Dragonite
Rank: My face is beaming.
Location: the netherlands(mostly)

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Dragonite » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:15 am

Just saw your post about it on FB itself. And that's totally okay. Social media does drive one crazy at times, even with mere lurking.

User avatar
Pkdragon
Rank: very chuuni

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Pkdragon » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:45 am

Xenesis wrote:Personally, I'm just avoiding social media and the news for the next week.

Being selfish, but I don't need all that extra stress.
Yeah, this is pretty much where I am right now. I just started a job in retail 4 days ago, I feel for the tragedy in Paris, I REALLY do, but I do not have time for the extra stress of following it. Got enough on my mind right now.
HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

User avatar
Sven

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Sven » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:17 am

I don't really blame anyone for not wanting to talk about it. It often feels like it's not worth the effort.

If you aren't educated about these sorts of issues you probably won't get blown out in a discussion with an ignorant redneck telling you to bomb the living hell out of the arabs, fudge yeah america. The sentiments are so ridiculous that most of them can just be ignored. No, the scary ones are your well educated friends and family.

For most educated people, their fears don't come out in public. But they come out behind closed doors none the less, or at the bar after a couple drinks. And their concerns are different. Some of them are very real. And honestly, a lot of the time I have to tell them I'll get back to them on one of their issues or points.

Our new Prime Minister wants to have 25000 Syrian refugees brought over by the end of the year.

There are many, very real questions for a concerned North American, a lot which don't really have good off the cuff answers. I can't imagine how it must be in Europe. Some of these are questions I've handled very poorly in the past. Others I still don't have very good answers to.
  • How do you distinguish real refugees from economic migrants masquerading as refugees? We refuse economic migrants without education, what's different here?
  • What's the screening process? Surely we're not screening them all by the end of the year? How much is this going to cost? Are we accepting UN screening results?
  • Why are we accepting 25000 refugees when the Americans are accepting 10000? Surely our "moral duties" are fulfilled by taking in X at most. The number 25000 is just political posturing.
  • What will we do when they inevitably take offense to our sexual education classes? Do we let them pull their kids out of health class?
  • Their culture is demeaning towards women, I don't want it here. They just want all of our conveniences without accepting any of our culture. How do we force them to integrate?
  • (continuing)We're still having problems with Somali refugee integration and it's been almost 30 years. I don't believe for a second that they're going to be distributed across the country, they're going to end up in major cities. Do we just accept that they're going to form another ghetto?
The above list touches on some of the concerns I've heard from friends/family.

User avatar
Narts

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Narts » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:34 am

1. Anyone should be allowed to migrate. But if they break a law, punish them.

2. They're innocent until they're caught doing something. Screening unnecessary.

3. There are no moral duties whatsoever, other than letting everyone do anything they want and carry concealed firearms in public and punishing criminals.

4. You shouldn't have publically funded, mandatory education anyway. All that money should go to the cops and military. Also, DEATH PENALTY.

5. If they break the law, punish them. Otherwise they can be as demeaning as they want.

6. Unless they break a law, they can ghetto as much as they want. Otherwise, PUNISH.

See, all the answers are simple. Politics easy.

User avatar
Sven

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Sven » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:39 am

thank you narts

User avatar
Linkman
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Master of Fiction

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Linkman » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:40 am

Those are in fact the real questions, and that's because they *are* the real problems. I feel as wholly ignorant as you, Sven, about how to deal with these questions and issues. Chile is bringing ~500 refugees, while Brazil has already accepted over 2000, and while I am all for helping those in need, the reality is:

1. There is no viable way to make the distinction, though I would argue it does not matter. Consider it political asylum rather than migration if you want to. The fact is if they can prove they are fleeing from a war zone, I feel it is the duty of every UN country to do what it can to provide refuge even if citizenship is a different question.

2. This point is strong, and every answer is moot. There is no fail-safe screening process for these amounts of people in these conditions. Most of them will not have proper documentation. There is no way to do this properly. People with criminal records/possibly even people belonging to terrorist organizations will seep in. This is a risk I, as a citizen of both countries, am willing to take, though I think it's justified if others aren't.

3. Yes, yes, and yes. Why 2000 and not 5000? Or 10000?

4. In this point, they simply adjust to our society. No, you cannot pull your kids from this class if nobody else can.

5. Also a moot point I think. It will be a source of distress but it's a problem that can be addressed over time.

6. It can, and will happen. Sadly it's probably better than not accepting them.


...yeah that's pretty depressing
"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
"I can't believe I'm the only person who voted Stallone. His appeal lies in watching is movies again and again just to hear what the hell he's talking about." - Kilteh

User avatar
Treedweller

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Treedweller » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:49 am

I don't know, Sven. I feel like some of your questions (or, at least, the questions that your family and friends are posing) are kinda bigoted.

First, you've linked to an article about a Muslim woman who has a ton of prudish (and stupid) beliefs about sex ed. This isn't a problem exclusive to, or even more common among, Muslims. Basically any person who holds strong Judeo-Christian beliefs (a tradition which Islam is obviously a part of) has conservative ideas about sex and, by extension, sex ed. What about the 700 other (presumably partly non-Muslim) students from Thorncliffe Park who were kept home? The way that the author frames the issue (pulling a conservative Muslim woman in to act as a centrepiece) is problematic, and probably racist.

Accept that large chunks of even the white-Canadian population are also going to oppose progressive reforms, to which some (not all!) Muslims will add their voice. And quit focusing on the Muslims, as though that tiny Canadian population is actually having any impact on our national conversations. Other Canadians set the terms of debate. Muslims can really only add their voice after the direction of that conversation has been decided.

Second, I hate this idea of 'ghettos.' What do you mean? That Syrians are going to form undesirable ghettos and gangs and just socialize amongst each other at the expense of integration? I mean, what the fudge do Canadians expect? That they come to Canada, abandon all the people that they know and who share a language with them, and become instantly rich so they can, like, instantly integrate in predominantly white communities and suburbs? That's not going to happen. It'll take at least a generation.

I know that it took a generation for my Arab family to join the Canadian middle/upper-middle class. Before that, they were dirt poor and, yes, probably living in what others would define as a 'ghetto.' To not afford Syrian refugees that chance, a chance that Canada has afforded to so many others (including my family), is unfair.

User avatar
Terragent
Rank: Cussing Aussie
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Terragent » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:45 am

As an Australian I am officially sick to death of hearing the phrase "economic migrants". It's been used by my government and its cheerleaders to justify putting innocent people in concentration camps and frankly I can't think of a way it could be employed that isn't just begging the question.

User avatar
Sven

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Sven » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:50 am

I may have made my point really poorly, but most of those questions were intended to be 'innocent' bigoted questions. When the topic is brought up, these are some of the points brought up. They're harder to answer because they're put together by well educated people who earnestly believe they're socially conscious. No one (other than the poor library science major who had to remove himself from the conversation, he couldn't handle hearing some of our friend's views) batted an eye when these questions were brought up in my peer group. These are educated people's questions.

I used the CBC's article because, well, most other media outlets I checked had the same narrative. Some are worse.

National Post:
Parents in the park complained that the curriculum introduces certain topics too early and that it presents homosexuality as an acceptable, normal way of life, when that counters Islamic teachings. They said their protests have gone unacknowledged.
Globe and Mail:
Look at what is happening in Thorncliffe Park. The high-rise enclave on the edge of the Don Valley is a magnet for new immigrants, many of them socially conservative Muslims from South Asia and the Middle East. This week, parents there staged a strike against the province’s new sex education curriculum, pulling hundreds of schoolchildren out of class to protest. They say their kids will learn too much, too soon. They say mothers and fathers, not educators, should decide what kids learn about sex and when they learn it. They say a lot more, too.

At the makeshift alternative school they set up in a local park, you hear a ragbag of conspiracy theories, unfounded claims and simple prejudice.

A mother of four, a Palestinian by origin, says that when kids learn about sex in school they end up “behind the school making babies.” A father of South Asian background says that Premier Kathleen Wynne, who happens to represent the riding and happens to be a lesbian, is using the schools to press her lifestyle on young children.

A guy from Guyana who sits on the parent council of a local school says that, instead of teaching that “it’s okay for a boy to be with a boy and a girl to be with a girl,” the schools should be teaching kids to suppress homosexual urges. Whether it is “a bullying problem, a drug problem, a smoking problem or a homosexuality problem,” he says, the schools should be preventing it, not promoting it.

User avatar
Terragent
Rank: Cussing Aussie
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Terragent » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:05 am

Yeah, that's how I read your statements - I certainly didn't mean to be chewing you out directly, Sven!

The problem, of course, is that they encapsulate a dozen or more different issues and it's pretty much impossible to come up with a glib answer. A lot of them, especially pertaining to integration and assimilation, are really just a matter of what you do when anyone doesn't want to participate in civil society: you engage with them, you respect their intelligence and comprehension, you explain the facts and put forth the best arguments you can, and if and only if it's obvious that no amount of persuasion or compromise will comfort them or bring them around do you put your foot down and say "your opinions are overwhelmingly not shared by our society and government and we can only allow them so much leeway". It's the kind of attitude that gets extended to 100% stupid ideas like anti-vaccination, so it seems ridiculous not to extend the same courtesy to people who are having difficulty fitting into a larger society due to different mores and cultural norms.

User avatar
Treedweller

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Treedweller » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:34 am

Sven wrote:I may have made my point really poorly, but most of those questions were intended to be 'innocent' bigoted questions. When the topic is brought up, these are some of the points brought up. They're harder to answer because they're put together by well educated people who earnestly believe they're socially conscious. No one (other than the poor library science major who had to remove himself from the conversation, he couldn't handle hearing some of our friend's views) batted an eye when these questions were brought up in my peer group. These are educated people's questions.
Oh honey, I know that, and I wasn't blaming you for earnestly asking them. But I feel that even (and maybe especially) educated white liberals are really bad on questions of race and immigration. The West has let the political far-right control all rhetoric and terms of debate on immigration and race for a long time.

Take, for example, the question of brown people not sharing our values about sex, LGBTQ rights, and women's liberation. I've seen this before. Bigots co-opt the language of progressives (i.e. Stephen Harper with his whole niqab and 'anti-women' spiel), bait socially-conservative brown people into saying terrible things, and then turn around and claim that _______ type of brown people don't share our values or way of life. The media cheerily cherry-picks their words based on their identities (Palestinian, South Asian, Guyanese), and happily ignores the socially-conservative white people who spread (and are probably the source of) this rhetoric. It's effective, too, because educated white liberals seem to lap all this up without really questioning it. And all of this happens even while Western societies remain stacked against both the LGBTQ and feminist communities. Politicians really only bring up the concerns of these communities to exclude communities that they hate even more.

So, I don't have a problem with you asking these questions at all, Sven darling. But I don't find that these questions hold up under scrutiny, either.

User avatar
Treedweller

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Treedweller » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:50 am

And also, as a mostly white progressive myself, I like Terr's approach. Only so much leeway is allowed. Living in a Western society means tacitly respecting the small but still significant headway that the LGBTQ and feminist communities have (rightfully) made. And it also means not using the LGBTQ or feminist communities' struggles to oppress those with different cultural mores.

User avatar
scraggypunk
Rank: legendary cartographer
Location: deoxy knight

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by scraggypunk » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:02 pm

ain't nothing innocent about bigotry
wisdom
"the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread" - anatole france

User avatar
Narts

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Narts » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:35 pm

>socially conscious
>these are educated people's opinions
lmao

There is a foreign, ruthless enemy who is trying to destroy you and your values and your reaction is HOW CAN I BE MORE SOCIALLY CONSCIOUS.

You guys are irredeemable.

Thankfully our leaders aren't complete idiots. They know a systematic, decisive military response will be necessary.
Treedweller wrote:And also, as a mostly white progressive myself, I like Terr's approach. Only so much leeway is allowed. Living in a Western society means tacitly respecting the small but still significant headway that the LGBTQ and feminist communities have (rightfully) made. And it also means not using the LGBTQ or feminist communities' struggles to oppress those with different cultural mores.
Although this is a well-intentioned and almost intelligent ("educated?") opinion, it has to be said that it is also largely inaccurate. I don't deny LGBTQ and women's right have still work to do but the headway they have made is not remotely "small" and the idea that everyone, including women and gay people have rights that need to be respected is already largely the de-facto cultural norm in the western societies. (In some perhaps less than in others, but regardless) The people who genuinely oppose these movements are a small and vocal minority and only getting smaller.

It's also not wrong to suggest that most of these refugees (not immigrants. let's not confuse the terms) come from societies where more "socially conservative" mores are the norm and that they will naturally bring their opinions with them. There's nothing wrong with that, per se, and nothing to do with race or necessarily even religion - btw why is it always the leftie "liberals" who bring up the race card first in this topic which is largely about Islam, a religion. The right wingers, as stupid as they are, stick largely to ranting about "culture", although that in itself is a poorly defined term that hardly gives their ideas clarity never mind accuracy, it shows they are already well aware race-based arguments are questionable to say the least - simply dismissing them as big bad boo boo racists is not exactly attacking their arguments head on (even if in some cases it is an accurate assessment of their real beliefs).

But we live in a culture inundated with the idea that every idiot opinion counts. These people will, again naturally, use that to their advantage just like every other group with idiot ideas does.

In any case extending all the old arguments (both pro and anti) about immigration to the current refugee crisis from both sides is intellectually lazy and ignores the fact that most of these people are simply escaping a temporary problem that has a clear and obvious fix - mobilise military power and destroy the evil these people are running from. With ISIS gone, most of them will return to their homes as they have no interest in staying in Europe or wherever other than to bide their time in safety while the demons are running loose. And who can blame them.

User avatar
Dragonite
Rank: My face is beaming.
Location: the netherlands(mostly)

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Dragonite » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:57 pm

Meanwhile, a dutch facebook friend of mine has been sharing Britain First pics..

Regarding conservatism, perhaps immigrants are distrusted more in this aspect, because the western conservatives already have been there since the time the whole western world was still way more conservative. They are viewed as a group who have failed to stop the tide of progression in the past, so little fear they will do so in the present.Immigrants however(bigot mode activate), are commonly viewed as invasive group who are unfamiliar with progressive ideals, and who will reject it to create bubbles of their own conservative society, or even worse, try to impose their outdated views on the host nation. Combined with fear of terrorism and they leeching of western wealth, it's easy to fear them a lot more then you friendly garden grumpy conservative.

Some of it is partly true though, in the sense that it's a common immigrants of another culture have a natural tendency to group together, and their social norms still holding sway in their own circles(sometimes even augmented by the need to preserve their own cultural identity).As far I know of dutch examples, the exact pattern tends to vary between specific groups(Turkish, Moroccan, Hindi), and very importantly, between specific generations in the group.

User avatar
Dragonite
Rank: My face is beaming.
Location: the netherlands(mostly)

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Dragonite » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:56 pm

And stuff keeps happening..

What are the best news sources to use? I use the dutch public news, and a major newspaper, which usually is sufficient. But things keep happening this week, and the flow of news is at times slow and unreliable. Twitter helps, and I try to check BCC and CNN, but I wonder if anyone here favors anything else(that's english at least, my french/german is poor.)

User avatar
Narts

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Narts » Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:16 am

So, a NATO country downed a Russian plane.

Looks like we may be getting that apocalypse after all! Allahu akbar!

User avatar
MysteriousLad
Rank: Mysterious President
Location: In your computer.

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by MysteriousLad » Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:33 am

Literally was about to post that.
"i put on my robe and wizard hat" ~Pkdragon
"rocks fall everyone dies" ~HPD
Welcome to the optimistic world of WWN :D

And logic doesn't work on MysteriousLad... ~Kireato
Wait, wait, wait.

Organized crime is selling bagels on television? Since when? ~Dragon Fogel

ThunderWalker
Rank: Elf
Location: Netherlands

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by ThunderWalker » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:43 pm

Putin and Erdogan are both very prideful but I doubt they are stupid.
My sig is a void.

User avatar
Narts

Re: France Paris Attacks

Post by Narts » Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:23 am

They wouldn't need to be exceptionally stupid for someone to slip and make a fatal mistake.

Especially when the launch times for early warning hair-triggered nukes are at their lowest since the Cold War. Putin may not be stupid (the hell do I know) but that seemingly doesn't stop him and his rivals to treat this like some sick game.

The current debacle over the jet fighter is already something that shouldn't be happening in this environment.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Multivac [Bot] and 0 guests