Donald Trump

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daisy
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Donald Trump

Post by daisy » Sun May 22, 2016 3:49 pm

Americans, explain this crumpets. How, in a country made up of and founded by migrants, did this person become Republican nominee? Why isn't electoral reform a thing? Your system is garbage.

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Re: Donald Trump

Post by scraggypunk » Sun May 22, 2016 5:11 pm

racism
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Re: Donald Trump

Post by Xenesis » Sun May 22, 2016 5:20 pm

scraggypunk wrote:racism
Not just that, it seems he's really good at racism. :?
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Re: Donald Trump

Post by HPD » Sun May 22, 2016 6:22 pm

I can ask the Brits here the same thing about the whole 'Brexit' issue.
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Re: Donald Trump

Post by Sniffit II » Sun May 22, 2016 7:57 pm

And I think you'll get much the same answer.

EDIT: I think there is a little more to it than just that, while there are a fair contingent of Daily Mail readers who regularly send telegrams to their MP reading "What are you going to do about these here foreigners, like them Welshies?", there are a fair contingent who are probably from agricultural backgrounds who see the EU as imposing a lot of beaurocracy on them (and a fair few from non-agricultural ones too who take exception to stuff like Health and Safety, and all that nonsense that stops the work force ending up dead in a mill-wheel, which could just be solved by having had the common sense to have been born the owner of the mill).

Also, there's probably a certain amount from areas of high unemployment who see it as a "THEY TOOK OUR JERBS" thing, which in some areas is sort of correct but not in the way they think, mainly as when travel was made easier with the continent, places like Thanet, where the primary industry was as a holiday resort, became less popular, and places like Liverpool were previously large shipping ports for trading with Canada, India and Australia, but shipping moved to Dover in order to trade with France and The Netherlands more.

There are also probably a fair few of hereditary money situation who see the EU as taking a lot of money, but also probably see taxes as being "That thing that the peasants want because they're too lazy to have been born on the Eatonian register. I mean, it's downright rudery that they should want to not die of typhus at the age of twelve, how dare they?".

As a result, there are a fair few people trying to woo the general populace with arguments such as "it'll be harder for them terrorists to come over here" or "house prices will fall", while forgetting that there'll also be less intelligence sharing of "watch this one, he's a bit explodey" or that the reason for house prices falling is a combination of manufacturing going elsewhere where export paperwork will not be suddenly much higher.

It's easy, I think, for people to forget that the EU does provide a fair amount of stuff for the UK, such as agricultural subsidies, which make a fair amount of agriculture more viable, regulation to keep financial markets more stable (like - my job, so I'm a bit biased on this one, I will admit), it makes trade with near by countries a ridiculous amount easier, and thus skilled manufacture companies, such as Airbus and Rolls Royce (who also exist in the city I live in to provide much employment) would up and leave pretty fast too.

FURTHER EDIT: That said, there is the TTIP thing which effectively would allow big American businesses buy things like parts of the NHS and then sue the governments of the countries which try to nationalise/re-nationalise those things. So yeah - that thing should be stopped, but whatever.

But yeah: I think there's probably a set of analogues which could apply to Trump (but evidently not in the same way, as America is not part of the EU as far as I am aware, but I could be wrong, as Australia appears to be part of Europe now...
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Re: Donald Trump

Post by HPD » Sun May 22, 2016 9:11 pm

It was more about the fact that Bog's statements here came across as sort of hypocritical in light of the present situation in Britain. But hey, fair answer regardless.
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Re: Donald Trump

Post by Sniffit II » Sun May 22, 2016 9:40 pm

I figured that was probably the case, but I was at a friend's house last night, and one of her housemates is voting to leave, but is actually a bright lad, so I've been thinking about it pretty much most of the morning, and thought it probably needed answering at some point.
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Re: Donald Trump

Post by Sven » Sun May 22, 2016 11:40 pm

check out my countries leader lul

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Re: Donald Trump

Post by Dragonite » Mon May 23, 2016 12:40 am

I guess in hindsight Trumps rise isn't that surprising. People throughout history just are prone to support populists even if it seems illogical. I'm personally more concerned with how crummy the mainstream politics often are. The US is clearly undergoing some social changes though. On the other side Sanders also has broken a few unwritten rules of politics.

Let's just say I dislike two-party systems and more specifically winner takes it all models. Trump has had a low chance of winning, but if he somehow does, he's suddenly the president. A dutch politics like Wilders is limited by the fact his party will always have to rely on other parties to ever get into government. He actually got some real influence when he supported a minority government, but he decided to blown the coalition up himself. Nowadays no party will work with him anymore if they can help it.

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Re: Donald Trump

Post by daisy » Mon May 23, 2016 4:39 am

HPD wrote:I can ask the Brits here the same thing about the whole 'Brexit' issue.
The idea that the Leave campaign is made up of "get da imagruntz out" people is ridiculous. I'm probably voting Leave due to TTIP, corporate influence within Brussels and that fact that the UK has never really embraced the EU anyway. I'm sick of having one foot in and one foot out. Hell, even the Greens and pretty much every other party to the left of Labour campaigned for a referendum, but you won't hear about that on the news. We're not in Schengen, we haven't joined the Euro, we hardly contributed anything to the bailouts and most of our MEPs are Eurosceptics who boycott the Assembly. What's the point?

If anything, a Leave vote will increase immigration from non-European countries, which when you think about it is ridiculously progressive as immigration policy wouldn't favour white Europeans over everyone else anymore. Even UKIP says as much, although they've kept quiet about that recently to appeal to their Daily Express voter base.

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Re: Donald Trump

Post by Dragonite » Mon May 23, 2016 4:47 am

I have heard that leaving would create economic trouble though. You don't buy that?

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Re: Donald Trump

Post by daisy » Mon May 23, 2016 4:52 am

No. That's one of the weakest arguments out there. It's a free trade zone that puts extra tariffs on trade outside it. Therefore *of course* 50-something-percent of trade would be with the continent, although it has been declining year on year as the Euro continues to suffer. We should be producing more locally anyway to get emissions down. Notice how the economic scaremongering always comes from big corporate bosses who have something to lose.

A couple of days ago George Osborne (who pretends to run the economy and campaigns for a Remain vote) came out and said that a Leave vote would cause house prices to drop 15%. There's a housing crisis. I'm paying £900 a month for rent. Homelessness is skyrocketing. The average age for first time buyers is now 35, having been 27 in 1994. A housing crash is exactly what we need right now.

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Re: Donald Trump

Post by Dragonite » Mon May 23, 2016 5:14 am

I see. Don't think the Netherlands would benefit much, we're traditionally a European trade country with world's largest port.

The EU has a increasing image problem though. Many of it's functions are underrated(it's driving my foreign mobile data costs down:p), but it's going to need a huge reform at some point before the constant strain tears it apart.

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Re: Donald Trump

Post by daisy » Mon May 23, 2016 5:19 am

If there wasn't an ocean between us maybe it'd be different.

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Re: Donald Trump

Post by HPD » Tue May 24, 2016 5:52 am

Bog does have a point though:

"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
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Re: Donald Trump

Post by daisy » Tue May 24, 2016 7:38 am

Not available in my country because of the EU.

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Re: Donald Trump

Post by HPD » Tue May 24, 2016 8:12 am

daisy wrote:Not available in my country because of the EU.
lolwhat
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Re: Donald Trump

Post by daisy » Tue May 24, 2016 9:09 am

Poe's Law. But it is blocked in the UK for some reason.
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I met him and shook his hand lol. He came to my uni shortly after he was elected and came to see queenie.

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Re: Donald Trump

Post by Xenesis » Tue May 24, 2016 10:40 am

Yeah, it's blocked in Au as well.
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Re: Donald Trump

Post by ThunderWalker » Tue May 24, 2016 5:01 pm

Trump's rise isn't all that surprising. It's not too dissimilar from the rise of populists in the rest of the world in both the present and the past.
It may be a bit worrying, but for some reason I think he's a better president for the USA that George W. Bush jr. has been. Provided he doesn't start a war, but I don't think he will.


The Brexit thing I find much more odd. The United Kingdom has always been a country with a bit of a strange relationship with the EU, one foot in and one foot out as Bog puts it. To me it always struck as if they wanted the benefits of the EU but do not want to share the downsides. I don't know if this is true so I'll admit that immidiately, though, but even the outside appearance of that does not make Britain more popular in Europe itself.

The thing is: What can the United Kingdom still get done if independent from the EU? The European Union - if united - can make a fist that can oppose Putin, the USA if they go too far, or China. Europe, being a continent that has been historically a warring mess, will lose that geopolitical power if the EU shatters. Just look at the ridiculous number of wars that Europe has fought in between each other before the Second World War. Even Asia hasn't been without its share of wars but the larger the number of independent states is, the larger the number of conflicts that get out of hand.
Even if a war in the present is unlikely, trade conflicts may be there, with the UK being reduced to a minor trade partner. I cannot see how these things are benificial for either the UK or the European Union, and I certainly believe that the Englishmen should not be naive enough that they can keep their free trade zone with the EU after a Brexit. It is very likely they can't.

Also, what does the UK do if this happens in that election:
England: BREXIT
Wales: STAY
Scotland: STAY
N-Ireland: STAY

England contains the overwhelming amount of the population of the UK so if the majority there is significant enough the outcome will be a Brexit, but if the other countries say 'we want to stay', I can't imagine a result like this being healthy for the relationship between England and Scotland (or Wales or N-Ireland, for that matter) at all. I doubt it sparks a civil war but it will certainly cause significant unrest.


@Dragonite: Rotterdam isn't the largest port in the world anymore, I think it has been overtaken by a few harbours in eastern Asia, like Singapore and Shanghai. It's still the largest port in Europe, though.
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Re: Donald Trump

Post by Dragonite » Tue May 24, 2016 8:28 pm

Yeah, I see. Could've sworn I had read it was the biggest, even if Shanhai is indeed more logical with ''made in china''.

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Re: Donald Trump

Post by HPD » Tue May 24, 2016 9:04 pm

Xenesis wrote:Yeah, it's blocked in Au as well.
honestly what's wrong with all the region locks :/
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Re: Donald Trump

Post by daisy » Tue May 24, 2016 11:18 pm

ThunderWalker wrote:The thing is: What can the United Kingdom still get done if independent from the EU?
- Avoid TTIP (for now)
- Force the resignation of David Cameron and half the cabinet, possibly including George Osborne. Potentially a new election after the Conservatives have been accused of electoral fraud.
- Avoid the fallout from the inevitable collapse of the EU due to the lack of a cohesive foreign policy and an incredibly weak Euro.
- No longer discriminate on immigration, allowing more immigration from the rest of the world instead of favouring Europeans simply for being European.
- Make inroads into solving the housing crisis.
- Makes ourselves less of a target if Putin does go full on crazy. Defence is the job of NATO, not the EU. The EU has no army.
- Increase trade with upcoming economies such as India, China and Brazil. The UK is not a superpower anymore. The EU is declining. Get used to it. Go where the money is.

The only legit negative I can think of is that there would be an initial fallout as the corrupt economic organisations of the world throw a hissy fit, but it'll sort itself out within a year or so. Oh and Nigel Farage's stupid fudge smiling face being all over the news.

If we were being asked to join the EU now, no one in their right mind would choose to go in.
ThunderWalker wrote:Also, what does the UK do if this happens in that election:
England: BREXIT
Wales: STAY
Scotland: STAY
N-Ireland: STAY
- Wales is surprisingly Eurosceptic, what with UKIP gaining representation there in the recent local elections. It will probably vote similarly to England, maybe a little more Remainians but not enough to make a difference.
- Scotland will vote to stay in and Sturgeon will ask for another referendum. Tbh the idea of Scottish Independence is growing on me, whereas before I was kinda in the middle. It is very culturally different to England and it does feel like another country when you're there. In Wales the only difference is that the road signs are in a dead language.
- NI will likely vote similarly to England unless the republicans really come out of the woodwork.

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Re: Donald Trump

Post by Linkman » Wed May 25, 2016 2:53 am

My (uneducated) take: people want blocks nowadays. They are forming in South America, they are forming in the pacific, they will form in the rest of the world eventually.

Blocks favor the bigger economies. The TTIP is amazing for the US. It will be harmful to Chilean, Peruvian and Mexican workers (while benefiting their "economies", which means the wealthy who will get tax breaks).

Putting those two together, and it's pretty clear to me the EU trade policies favor Germany, France and the UK and that anyone saying the opposite is probably fearmongering. Whether the EU itself is better for the workers rather than the economies, it's debatable.

(again, talking out of my ass :D)
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Re: Donald Trump

Post by Sniffit II » Wed May 25, 2016 4:54 am

The only way we're truly going to make headway into solving the housing problem is by cracking down on this godawful Buy-To-Let industry with it's "we can afford to buy these houses at lolspensive so we can, and then charge a buttload of rent, meaning you scrubs spend all your money paying for our houses rather than saving for one of your own."
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Re: Donald Trump

Post by scraggypunk » Wed May 25, 2016 5:39 am

that's too small time sniffit
end capitalism
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Re: Donald Trump

Post by daisy » Wed May 25, 2016 9:13 am

If it's good for developed economies but bad for developing economies then it's (usually) an evil. Exploitation yo. /marx

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Re: Donald Trump

Post by Terragent » Wed May 25, 2016 10:24 am

HPD wrote:
Xenesis wrote:Yeah, it's blocked in Au as well.
honestly what's wrong with all the region locks :/
They enable price-fixing?

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Re: Donald Trump

Post by scraggypunk » Wed May 25, 2016 12:06 pm

oh hey another excellent reason to end capitalism
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Re: Donald Trump

Post by Narts » Wed May 25, 2016 3:16 pm

In real capitalism you could just buy from another region

It's systems with artificial regulation where that can be made illegal, or discouraged with extra taxes / tariffs

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Re: Donald Trump

Post by ThunderWalker » Wed May 25, 2016 10:16 pm

daisy wrote:
ThunderWalker wrote:The thing is: What can the United Kingdom still get done if independent from the EU?
- Avoid TTIP (for now)
Fair enough. I actually don't think TTIP is advantageous for anyone (not even Americans) unless you are owning a large company, almost irrespective if you are American or European. I don't know the effects of TTIP on the Euro-American market, but for all we know they may be advantageous to everybody in the long term. I don't think so - but that's more the cynic in me than because I completely understand the finer aspects of TTIP.

Assuming the cynic in me is right, the UK can only avoid it temporarily anyway. Without the EU they actually have more reasons to join TTIP than when they are still in it, after all (at least the people that have the power and wealth to influence political decisions, which coincidentially are also the people that benefit from TTIP).
- Force the resignation of David Cameron and half the cabinet, possibly including George Osborne. Potentially a new election after the Conservatives have been accused of electoral fraud.
Doesn't have much to do with the EU, does it?
Politicians have always been clowns, and they always will be.
- Avoid the fallout from the inevitable collapse of the EU due to the lack of a cohesive foreign policy and an incredibly weak Euro.
The Euro isn't that weak, but the rest of your point is valid. The EU needs to address the issues with the foreign policy or it will likely collapse. I don't think it is inevitable. Strangely, I think it is much easier to get a cohesive foreign policy up and running once the United Kingdom left the EU, though, as currently the behaviour of the politicians representing the United Kingdom is actually a significant part of the problems the EU suffers from - so who knows the UK leaving might actually be advantageous for the EU.
- No longer discriminate on immigration, allowing more immigration from the rest of the world instead of favouring Europeans simply for being European.
It does not work that way. At least, not in the Netherlands. Most Dutchies - even the rightwing populists - don't care about other Europeans, especially not people from Western Europe immigrating. It's the people that aren't from Europe that are the problem, and that won't change even if the Netherlands would leave the EU (which is very unlikely) because we are a small trade country, so we actually make a lot of money out of the EU.
- Make inroads into solving the housing crisis.
Is that really caused by the EU? It's very likely that the EU is just the scapegoat but I really cannot imagine this being even close to the truth. Just compare London, with say, Los Angeles, an American city of similar size. Or with Paris, or godforbid, Tokyo.
The Netherlands also have housing issues in cities but again they have little to do with the EU and they are nowhere near as bad (if not outright nonexistant) in the less habited areas.
The housing issues that have been (or maybe still are) existant in Spain and Greece are a different matter, though, but that's completely irrelevant to whether the UK should leave the EU or not.
- Makes ourselves less of a target if Putin does go full on crazy. Defence is the job of NATO, not the EU. The EU has no army.
True but the EU is much stronger if all European countries are united. Also, Britain is still a target due to the NATO, but I do not expect Putin to go crazy at this moment. I know enough of Russians to know that most of his dangerous speeches are more to 'sound like a man' than to take word for word. If nothing significant happens, Putin won't do anything overly stupid (like start a war with the NATO).
- Increase trade with upcoming economies such as India, China and Brazil. The UK is not a superpower anymore. The EU is declining. Get used to it. Go where the money is.
Technically true, yet irrelevant, because the United Kingdom is free to do this even when being part of the EU.
Also, the EU combined is still an economical superpower, even if declining. The EU has never been a political superpower, nor a military superpower - it was never meant to be. The EU is an economical institute originally designed to prevent wars, especially between Germany and France.
Funnily the EU was never meant to become an economical superpower either, but it became one in the early 90s, when the concept for the Euro was drafted (ironically to curb new tensions between Germany and France). But the political union that was needed to form alongside it never came to fruition because the national parliaments were afraid to lose their power, hence the EU is still weak both politically and military-wise, and this is also the root for a lot of problems with the euro.

To be honest, I think the best path for Europe is to to shed its origins as an institute, but instead become a 'country' for all intents and purposes, with or without Britain. It's obviously better if the UK remains in the EU for this, but it may be a lot easier if they don't.
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Re: Donald Trump

Post by daisy » Wed May 25, 2016 10:52 pm

ThunderWalker wrote:Fair enough. I actually don't think TTIP is advantageous for anyone (not even Americans) unless you are owning a large company, almost irrespective if you are American or European. I don't know the effects of TTIP on the Euro-American market, but for all we know they may be advantageous to everybody in the long term. I don't think so - but that's more the cynic in me than because I completely understand the finer aspects of TTIP.

Assuming the cynic in me is right, the UK can only avoid it temporarily anyway. Without the EU they actually have more reasons to join TTIP than when they are still in it, after all (at least the people that have the power and wealth to influence political decisions, which coincidentially are also the people that benefit from TTIP).
TTIP is terrible for anyone not American. I don't want muh NHS run by American pharmaceutical companies thank you very much.
ThunderWalker wrote: Doesn't have much to do with the EU, does it?
Politicians have always been clowns, and they always will be.
Not directly, but Cameron has been the worst and most corrupt PM we've had in years, and he wants to stay in. Leaving would make his position untenable, especially as his party is currently infighting over the issue and he's already said he won't fight another general election.
ThunderWalker wrote: The Euro isn't that weak, but the rest of your point is valid. The EU needs to address the issues with the foreign policy or it will likely collapse. I don't think it is inevitable. Strangely, I think it is much easier to get a cohesive foreign policy up and running once the United Kingdom left the EU, though, as currently the behaviour of the politicians representing the United Kingdom is actually a significant part of the problems the EU suffers from - so who knows the UK leaving might actually be advantageous for the EU.
It would be, and that's kind of another one of my points. We keep electing eurosceptic MEPs and seem to do nothing but cause trouble over there.
ThunderWalker wrote: It does not work that way. At least, not in the Netherlands. Most Dutchies - even the rightwing populists - don't care about other Europeans, especially not people from Western Europe immigrating. It's the people that aren't from Europe that are the problem, and that won't change even if the Netherlands would leave the EU (which is very unlikely) because we are a small trade country, so we actually make a lot of money out of the EU.
United Kingdom =/= Netherlands

Nigel Farage, UKIP leader, hates Eastern Europeans.
ThunderWalker wrote: Is that really caused by the EU? It's very likely that the EU is just the scapegoat but I really cannot imagine this being even close to the truth. Just compare London, with say, Los Angeles, an American city of similar size. Or with Paris, or godforbid, Tokyo.
The Netherlands also have housing issues in cities but again they have little to do with the EU and they are nowhere near as bad (if not outright nonexistant) in the less habited areas.
The housing issues that have been (or maybe still are) existant in Spain and Greece are a different matter, though, but that's completely irrelevant to whether the UK should leave the EU or not.
Not directly, but the initial economic fallout and drop in demand would lower house prices.
ThunderWalker wrote: True but the EU is much stronger if all European countries are united. Also, Britain is still a target due to the NATO, but I do not expect Putin to go crazy at this moment. I know enough of Russians to know that most of his dangerous speeches are more to 'sound like a man' than to take word for word. If nothing significant happens, Putin won't do anything overly stupid (like start a war with the NATO).
We can be united without being part of a non-military supra state which primarily deals with trade and free movement.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 35141.html
ThunderWalker wrote: Technically true, yet irrelevant, because the United Kingdom is free to do this even when being part of the EU.
No we're not. The EU applies extra tariffs for trade outside it. Factually incorrect.
ThunderWalker wrote:Also, the EU combined is still an economical superpower, even if declining. The EU has never been a political superpower, nor a military superpower - it was never meant to be. The EU is an economical institute originally designed to prevent wars, especially between Germany and France.
I'm not sure where you get your information from but the EU rivals the US in terms of economic power. As in, it has a lot, but it's declining and has been for years. The EU's (and the world's) financial district is the City of London. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide ... f_Commerce

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Re: Donald Trump

Post by Sven » Thu May 26, 2016 12:21 am

>eurofag thinks he isn't a eurofag cause he has to hop on a boat to get to france

do you guys have board game cafes

daisy
Rank: Crucified in the Great Meme War

Re: Donald Trump

Post by daisy » Thu May 26, 2016 5:20 am

Nice union you got there with the US and Mexico. Oh, wait.

Yes.

ThunderWalker
Rank: Elf
Location: Netherlands

Re: Donald Trump

Post by ThunderWalker » Thu May 26, 2016 6:43 am

daisy wrote: TTIP is terrible for anyone not American. I don't want muh NHS run by American pharmaceutical companies thank you very much.
From what I have read about it, it's not necessarily terrible for everybody not American. I mean, there will be so many damn changes in how our society looks in the next few decades regardless of TTIP, thanks to a greater influence of robots and AI in our lives. From what I'm reading about it, the biggest gripe with TTIP is more that the big companies profit a lot more from it than the average citizen, and that money has to come from somewhere...
Not directly, but Cameron has been the worst and most corrupt PM we've had in years, and he wants to stay in. Leaving would make his position untenable, especially as his party is currently infighting over the issue and he's already said he won't fight another general election.
Fair enough.
It would be, and that's kind of another one of my points. We keep electing eurosceptic MEPs and seem to do nothing but cause trouble over there.
Maybe just to hell with all the elections? From somewhere, I do understand the Russians. They do not want a democracy, and not without reason.
United Kingdom =/= Netherlands

Nigel Farage, UKIP leader, hates Eastern Europeans.
Same for Geert Wilders, but he has a Romanian (I think?) wife. Which makes the EU suddenly fairly convenient for him. The rightwing populists have a fair number of points in common, across the entirity of Europe, but they are also part of the reason why the EU was founded in the first place.

Not directly, but the initial economic fallout and drop in demand would lower house prices.
That sounds more like lazy politicians refusing to do their job properly, if you actually need a recession to fix things (and pray that not many unwanted side effects pop up).
We can be united without being part of a non-military supra state which primarily deals with trade and free movement.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 35141.html
Which is why I think Europe needs to be a super-state, similar to the USA.

Also, the Baltic states are both members of the EU and the NATO, and while Putin may consider it, modern forces would allow for a quick counterattack at any moment. No country is defendable nowadays and I am pretty sure Putin or at least his military staff is aware of that (and if not, they are incredibly naive, not to mention incompetent). I think Putin will take the countries that the NATO or EU are unwilling to defend. I am pretty sure that Putin is more calculating than risking an attack on the Baltic states - and he certainly doens't want to risk a nuke or even just a Tomahawk on the Kremlin.

On the other hand, an incorrect calculation from Hitler (which is awfully similar) is what sparked the 2nd World War with the splitting of Poland. But, that being said, I am fairly certain Putin is intelligent enough to avoid making Hitler's mistake.
No we're not. The EU applies extra tariffs for trade outside it. Factually incorrect.
True, but the individual countries used to do that already before the EU even existed, so I doubt that's going to change.

I'm not sure where you get your information from but the EU rivals the US in terms of economic power. As in, it has a lot, but it's declining and has been for years. The EU's (and the world's) financial district is the City of London. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide ... f_Commerce
I think we agree on this point. Still, even a declining superpower is still a superpower, and I think Europe will actually remain a superpower (provided no Third World War takes place). Sure, Europe will carry much less influence, but still enough to get things done and allow for a 'soft landing'.

It's also worth noting that all major economic powers have some hot coals they really need to remove before these ignite a fire that potentially goes way out of control, so it's pretty hard to tell which country is on top in say, 2050, or 2100, as there are a ton of things that can go horribly right (or horribly wrong).
My sig is a void.

daisy
Rank: Crucified in the Great Meme War

Re: Donald Trump

Post by daisy » Thu May 26, 2016 7:39 am

Lol Godwin's Law already
ThunderWalker wrote: From what I have read about it, it's not necessarily terrible for everybody not American. I mean, there will be so many damn changes in how our society looks in the next few decades regardless of TTIP, thanks to a greater influence of robots and AI in our lives. From what I'm reading about it, the biggest gripe with TTIP is more that the big companies profit a lot more from it than the average citizen, and that money has to come from somewhere...
I say again, muh NHS. Modernisation doesn't have to involve privatising healthcare.
ThunderWalker wrote:
It would be, and that's kind of another one of my points. We keep electing eurosceptic MEPs and seem to do nothing but cause trouble over there.
Maybe just to hell with all the elections? From somewhere, I do understand the Russians. They do not want a democracy, and not without reason.
I can see why you like the EU now. I don't remember voting for Juncker.
ThunderWalker wrote: Same for Geert Wilders, but he has a Romanian (I think?) wife. Which makes the EU suddenly fairly convenient for him. The rightwing populists have a fair number of points in common, across the entirity of Europe, but they are also part of the reason why the EU was founded in the first place.
This is irrelevant to the original point. The UK is a different country to the Netherlands economically and culturally therefore it's pointless to compare them.
ThunderWalker wrote:That sounds more like lazy politicians refusing to do their job properly, if you actually need a recession to fix things (and pray that not many unwanted side effects pop up).
It sounds exactly like that, yes. Guess what one of the things in the way of letting us build more houses is?
ThunderWalker wrote: Which is why I think Europe needs to be a super-state, similar to the USA.
but thats what hitler wanted :O
ThunderWalker wrote:Also, the Baltic states are both members of the EU and the NATO, and while Putin may consider it, modern forces would allow for a quick counterattack at any moment. No country is defendable nowadays and I am pretty sure Putin or at least his military staff is aware of that (and if not, they are incredibly naive, not to mention incompetent). I think Putin will take the countries that the NATO or EU are unwilling to defend. I am pretty sure that Putin is more calculating than risking an attack on the Baltic states - and he certainly doens't want to risk a nuke or even just a Tomahawk on the Kremlin.
putin is a rational human being
ThunderWalker wrote:True, but the individual countries used to do that already before the EU even existed, so I doubt that's going to change.
EU tarriffs didn't exist before the EU. They are paid on top of what already existed.
ThunderWalker wrote: Still, even a declining superpower is still a superpower, and I think Europe will actually remain a superpower
yeah lets vote without any regard for the future sounds like a great plan

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Pkdragon
Rank: very chuuni

Re: Donald Trump

Post by Pkdragon » Thu May 26, 2016 11:38 am

how did a topic about trump turn into a topic about arguing over how much european politics suck

come on guys

we're right here, easy target
HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

daisy
Rank: Crucified in the Great Meme War

Re: Donald Trump

Post by daisy » Thu May 26, 2016 12:43 pm

You guys actually have a two party electoral system for two parties. We have a two party electoral system for five, arguably seven. Nine if you count the irish.

But still, how the fudge did a fascist (yes, he meets the academic definitions of fascist) get to the point where he could conceivably become president of the most powerful country in the world? And if he doesn't win, you get Clinton and her fudge emails.

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scraggypunk
Rank: legendary cartographer
Location: deoxy knight

Re: Donald Trump

Post by scraggypunk » Thu May 26, 2016 1:06 pm

Pkdragon wrote:how did a topic about trump turn into a topic about arguing over how much european politics suck

come on guys

we're right here, easy target
yeah how did a discussion of a fascist end up talking about european politics, wow, i'm really struggling figuring out this one, wow, super tough, gosh
wisdom
"the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread" - anatole france

ThunderWalker
Rank: Elf
Location: Netherlands

Re: Donald Trump

Post by ThunderWalker » Thu May 26, 2016 11:19 pm

daisy wrote: I say again, muh NHS. Modernisation doesn't have to involve privatising healthcare.
Agreed. There are a few more things that really should not become private.
I can see why you like the EU now. I don't remember voting for Juncker.
I think politicians that aren't chosen by democratic vote are less susceptable to being taken by fear of the next elections. If you aren't elected, you can make the right decisions much easier.

This being said, the ruler should probably not rule alone. He's only human, after all. It could even be a half-democracy (without feigning to be democratic) with an undemocratically chosen president and parliament, but the local politicians are democratically voted for (and maybe even a council that gives advice to the President).
This is irrelevant to the original point. The UK is a different country to the Netherlands economically and culturally therefore it's pointless to compare them.
Fair enough but rightwing populists have a lot of points in common throughout the history. Wilders screams the same in regards to hating East Europeans, but he has a Romanian wife, thus undermining his own point.
I wouldn't be surprised if Farage would do the same if he fell in love, with, say, a Polish woman.

It sounds exactly like that, yes. Guess what one of the things in the way of letting us build more houses is?
I think you want to say "Europe", but I can't find the European decree which prevents you from building more houses.
but thats what hitler wanted :O
Obviously, said super-state should not be ruled by a single (or even a few) persons.
putin is a rational human being
I know you are sarcastic, but "human" and "rational" should never go in the same sentence. However, I think Putin is more rational than most - which is what makes him dangerous.
EU tarriffs didn't exist before the EU. They are paid on top of what already existed.
Incorrect as far as I know. Most of the protectionism from individual countries has been replaced with the EU tarriffs once the free market was getting up and running, so for non-European countries very little has been changed.
yeah lets vote without any regard for the future sounds like a great plan
Europe has 450 million citizens, of which the overwhelming majority is relatively wealthy compared to the rest of the world. We - European citizens - are part of the reason Europe is an economic superpower and there is little reason for an absolute decrease in wealth (unless either a war or hyperinflation takes place). A relative decrease in wealth is a different matter, though, but things like that take time.

An example in the past is actually the Netherlands, back then the Dutch Republic. In the Golden Age (1600-1680), we were an extremely rich country, much richer than the rest of the world. But even after that, we did not lose that wealth for another century, the Silver Age. Why wasn't it called the Golden Age anymore if we remained as rich? It was just that England, later Great Britain, as well as France and the Holy Roman Empire gained a lot of wealth as well, getting on equal footing with the Netherlands (thus the Dutch Republic lost wealth only when compared to neighbouring countries, but not when taken in a vacuum).
Then, after 1780, a few incidents happened that started an absolute loss of wealth that did not end until Waterloo, and the Netherlands remained a country that suffered from varied degrees of poverty until after the 2nd World War. These incidents were almost all related to lost wars (4th Anglo-Dutch War, the French invasion in the 1790s and Napoleon's occupation afterwards).

Europe is now in a similar Silver Age as the Dutch Republic have been in the 18th century, but much like then, an absolute decline is unlikely to happen unless a war or natural disaster takes place, but in both cases there are bigger things to worry about than a loss of wealth if the scale is significant enough to affect it in the first place.
My sig is a void.

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