Brexit

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ThunderWalker
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Location: Netherlands

Re: Brexit

Post by ThunderWalker » Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:50 am

bog2 wrote:Nationalism is a political position. The entire reason you're discussing this with me is because of my political position.
...
I only said that your reasoning in a previous post came from a very nationalisic point of view (in this case, dominantly English).

Does that make you a nationalist?
No.


Also, in Dutch the word "nationalism" has a variety of meanings and definitions, varying from the one we are just discussing (wanting to push your country beyond the limit through any means necessary), to the wish of having your country to be independent (like in Scotland), or just have a greater degree of self governing (like in Belgium), to being almost a synonym for patriottism or chauvinism. That are four definitions right there - and I'm forgetting a few.
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Pkdragon
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Re: Brexit

Post by Pkdragon » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:32 am

look all i know is that if i voted for a position that donald trump supported id be taking a hard look at myself and my life choices
HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

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Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:54 am

ThunderWalker wrote:
bog2 wrote:Nationalism is a political position. The entire reason you're discussing this with me is because of my political position.
...
I only said that your reasoning in a previous post came from a very nationalisic point of view (in this case, dominantly English).
me wrote: If you even read what I said before you wouldn't say this because you would know that my concern is mainly for other countries. My own can go to hell. (hyperbole, inb4takenoutofcontextagain)
:)
Also, in Dutch the word "nationalism" has a variety of meanings and definitions
Maybe if your English was as good as your Dutch we wouldn't be having this conversation.

ThunderWalker
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Location: Netherlands

Re: Brexit

Post by ThunderWalker » Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:34 pm

daisy wrote: Maybe if your English was as good as your Dutch we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I looked it up because I was just as uncertain myself and I couldn't find any evidence to it being any different from Dutch. Even after looking it up I did not spot any difference between the English and Dutch definitions for words like Patriottism and Nationalism. As such, they should be used in similar fashion.

However, there is a difference between Dutch and English in this regard, because otherwise we would indeed likely not have this conversation. I'm curious to the answer because it is actually interesting to find the cause of such a difference.

And when writing this post, I think I found it:
Spoiler: show
Firstly, there is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriottentijd
Part of the reason why we in the Netherlands rarely use the word "patriottism" (the above ended with treason of all things), and another reason is that quite a few politicians used it as a disguise for the first definition of "nationalism" in the past. But far more importantly, Nazi Germany did as well, in their propaganda leaflets they spread around when they occupied the Netherlands... I have no doubt that this added a lot of negative connotations to the word.

It does not help that the other synonym we have for patriottism, "Vaderlandsliefde", also has awkward connotations thanks to Nazi Germany. As such, it's rarely used as well.

In many Dutch areas, it's easy to forget the word "patriottism" actually exists without the negative connotations it gained in the 1940s. I never heard it being used outside of those, at least, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.
However, now I think of it, I would not be surprised if there are Dutchies who do, even those born after the 1950s. In which case even the family you grow up in actually matters in how you interpret and use a word, but that's a discussion for another time. Still interesting, and funnily it means we could have had this conversation even if you were a Dutchman as well. :ph43r:
Question: Does "patriottism" refer to a political position in English?
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Narts
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Re: Brexit

Post by Narts » Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:16 pm

get your filthy pik een jaar voor üntermensch language out of this forum and go back whence you came from

wwn is for british

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Dragonite
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Re: Brexit

Post by Dragonite » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:24 pm

ThunderWalker wrote: I looked it up because I was just as uncertain myself and I couldn't find any evidence to it being any different from Dutch. Even after looking it up I did not spot any difference between the English and Dutch definitions for words like Patriottism and Nationalism. As such, they should be used in similar fashion.

However, there is a difference between Dutch and English in this regard, because otherwise we would indeed likely not have this conversation. I'm curious to the answer because it is actually interesting to find the cause of such a difference.

And when writing this post, I think I found it:
Spoiler: show
Firstly, there is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriottentijd
Part of the reason why we in the Netherlands rarely use the word "patriottism" (the above ended with treason of all things), and another reason is that quite a few politicians used it as a disguise for the first definition of "nationalism" in the past. But far more importantly, Nazi Germany did as well, in their propaganda leaflets they spread around when they occupied the Netherlands... I have no doubt that this added a lot of negative connotations to the word.

It does not help that the other synonym we have for patriottism, "Vaderlandsliefde", also has awkward connotations thanks to Nazi Germany. As such, it's rarely used as well.

In many Dutch areas, it's easy to forget the word "patriottism" actually exists without the negative connotations it gained in the 1940s. I never heard it being used outside of those, at least, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.
However, now I think of it, I would not be surprised if there are Dutchies who do, even those born after the 1950s. In which case even the family you grow up in actually matters in how you interpret and use a word, but that's a discussion for another time. Still interesting, and funnily it means we could have had this conversation even if you were a Dutchman as well. :ph43r:
Question: Does "patriottism" refer to a political position in English?
It's more of a label really. Explicitly endorsing it in political mattersis mostly limited to populist movements. Or being a American, they are weird. However, it's not quite relevant, as it's far from Daisy's actual position. If you want patriots, go to Britain first's facebook page. Otherwise it's best to kind of concede the point, or start rewording it entirely.

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Narts
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Re: Brexit

Post by Narts » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:24 pm

hey PATRIOTISM is pretty big in finland too

It is considered a PATRIOTIC DUTY and a TRADITION to serve in the murder school even though there's no real choice unless you're a woman in which case you don't have to be a patriot

ThunderWalker
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Location: Netherlands

Re: Brexit

Post by ThunderWalker » Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:53 am

Dragonite wrote:
ThunderWalker wrote: I looked it up because I was just as uncertain myself and I couldn't find any evidence to it being any different from Dutch. Even after looking it up I did not spot any difference between the English and Dutch definitions for words like Patriottism and Nationalism. As such, they should be used in similar fashion.

However, there is a difference between Dutch and English in this regard, because otherwise we would indeed likely not have this conversation. I'm curious to the answer because it is actually interesting to find the cause of such a difference.

And when writing this post, I think I found it:
Spoiler: show
Firstly, there is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriottentijd
Part of the reason why we in the Netherlands rarely use the word "patriottism" (the above ended with treason of all things), and another reason is that quite a few politicians used it as a disguise for the first definition of "nationalism" in the past. But far more importantly, Nazi Germany did as well, in their propaganda leaflets they spread around when they occupied the Netherlands... I have no doubt that this added a lot of negative connotations to the word.

It does not help that the other synonym we have for patriottism, "Vaderlandsliefde", also has awkward connotations thanks to Nazi Germany. As such, it's rarely used as well.

In many Dutch areas, it's easy to forget the word "patriottism" actually exists without the negative connotations it gained in the 1940s. I never heard it being used outside of those, at least, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.
However, now I think of it, I would not be surprised if there are Dutchies who do, even those born after the 1950s. In which case even the family you grow up in actually matters in how you interpret and use a word, but that's a discussion for another time. Still interesting, and funnily it means we could have had this conversation even if you were a Dutchman as well. :ph43r:
Question: Does "patriottism" refer to a political position in English?
It's more of a label really. Explicitly endorsing it in political mattersis mostly limited to populist movements. Or being a American, they are weird. However, it's not quite relevant, as it's far from Daisy's actual position. If you want patriots, go to Britain first's facebook page. Otherwise it's best to kind of concede the point, or start rewording it entirely.
Britain First? Dunno, last time I heard people talking about that (in Dutch) they called it nationalism. Don't even need to do that myself.
They themselves call it patriottism, so you actually confirm what I just said ^^ .

Indeed nationalism/patriottism is far from Daisy's stance and it's also absolutely not [what I meant either. From the moment I used the word "nationalism" the discussion started to live its own life but the way it has been interpreted is far from what I meant to begin with. And thus a misunderstanding was born.

It needs to be reworded, indeed. How? Ehr, dunno.
I made a quick edit in the post that started the debate, because actually it's easier in English (Dutch would have to resort to a confusing roundabout). It's still not exactly what I meant but at least much closer and it should at least provide an antidote to the poison.
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Dragonite
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Location: the netherlands(mostly)

Re: Brexit

Post by Dragonite » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:14 am

If it's not Daisy's stance I don't get it why it entered the discussion earlier. Let's just focus on silly british leaders leaving all of a sudden.

ThunderWalker
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Location: Netherlands

Re: Brexit

Post by ThunderWalker » Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:01 am

Dragonite wrote:If it's not Daisy's stance I don't get it why it entered the discussion earlier. Let's just focus on silly british leaders leaving all of a sudden.
Me neither actually, probably due to my awkward phrasing.

I agree though. The brexit leaders suddenly taking off is very interesting and to a relative outsider (like me) it looks like an act of cowardice.
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daisy
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Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:20 am

Think of it more like leaving an abusive relationship. (1...2....3...)


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Bonesy
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Re: Brexit

Post by Bonesy » Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:29 pm

fudge not waving the american flag on the july 4th get out

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Narts
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Re: Brexit

Post by Narts » Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:44 pm

bog is a neonazi

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Linkman
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Re: Brexit

Post by Linkman » Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:44 pm

How does HPD know when to lock these?
"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
"I can't believe I'm the only person who voted Stallone. His appeal lies in watching is movies again and again just to hear what the hell he's talking about." - Kilteh

daisy
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Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:10 am

Narts wrote:bog is a neonazi

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Narts
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Re: Brexit

Post by Narts » Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:21 am

do you expect me to actually click these videos you're linking to

and why do you hate jewish people anyway

daisy
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Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:01 am

Narts wrote:do you expect me to actually click these videos you're linking to

and why do you hate jewish people anyway
No.

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Re: Brexit

Post by HPD » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:16 am

Linkman wrote:How does HPD know when to lock these?
Yeah, it seems about that time, doesn't it?
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daisy
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Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:08 pm

You forgot to actually do it. ;)

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Pkdragon
Rank: very chuuni

Re: Brexit

Post by Pkdragon » Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:46 pm

he said "about", means we aren't quite there yet

now wwn this is the time to show that we as a community are mature enough to not require topic locks, that we can rise above the internet standard of petty squabbling when there is no adult to give us a time out

or not, thats cool too
HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Xenesis » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:12 pm

Linkman wrote:How does HPD know when to lock these?
We have like a bat-signal.
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ThunderWalker
Rank: Elf
Location: Netherlands

Re: Brexit

Post by ThunderWalker » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:49 pm

Pkdragon wrote:he said "about", means we aren't quite there yet

now wwn this is the time to show that we as a community are mature enough to not require topic locks, that we can rise above the internet standard of petty squabbling when there is no adult to give us a time out

or not, thats cool too
Aren't we all adults anyway?

On the other hand, most of us are males and there's a saying that (adult) males will remain children for the rest of their lives.
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Narts
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Re: Brexit

Post by Narts » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:52 pm

I, for one, intend to never grow up

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Dragonite
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Re: Brexit

Post by Dragonite » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:44 pm

Image

bog2

Re: Brexit

Post by bog2 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:03 am

You guys take the media way too seriously.


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Joey

Re: Brexit

Post by Joey » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:35 pm

i think we're all adults at this point and we should generally be left to go nuts by ourselves unless crumpets actually just turns into an unfortunate maelstrom
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HPD
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Re: Brexit

Post by HPD » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:25 pm

Joey wrote:i think we're all adults at this point and we should generally be left to go nuts by ourselves unless crumpets actually just turns into an unfortunate maelstrom
This has always been wwn policy tbqh
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Narts
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Re: Brexit

Post by Narts » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:29 pm

says hpd with a trail of incinerated threads lying behind him

history does not forget

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Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:04 pm

Narts wrote:says hpd with a trail of incinerated threads lying behind him

history does not forget
This made me laugh harder than it should have.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Linkman » Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:28 pm

"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
"I can't believe I'm the only person who voted Stallone. His appeal lies in watching is movies again and again just to hear what the hell he's talking about." - Kilteh

daisy
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Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:38 am

Would you like a new scapegoat?

In related news, I never thought I would genuinely support a Tory but May is turning out to be solid. Not perfect, but so far she could be the best PM we've had in a long time. I voted Labour in 2015, and suddenly the Tories have plagarised their manifesto. Meanwhile, 2016 Labour has been overtaken by Momentum.

My congratulations to Mrs May for winning the 2020 election already.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Xenesis » Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:06 pm

You say that like any progressive position from a Tory won't crumble the second they're elected and the hard right of their party puts the pressure on.*

*See: Australian 2016 Federal Election
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Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:22 pm

Well she's already in power and already done some good stuff. I was careful to say "could be." If we're going to go down the lesser evil route, that's the Tories right now.

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Dragonite
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Re: Brexit

Post by Dragonite » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:28 pm

The current trouble in Labour makes me happy my own country has more viable parties.. Since both a socialistic party and a green party exist alongside our labour, it isn't as likely to be ripped apart internally by a socialism vs mainstream movement.

What Tory wing hails May from? If I recall correctly she was personally opposed to the brexit before.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Bonesy » Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:01 am

shrekxit

daisy
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Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:30 am

May was very quietly against it, which means she was probably for leaving but didn't want to piss off Cameron.

The UK is pretty much a one party state right now. There is no credible opposition at all. Even UKIP is in chaos.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Linkman » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:03 pm

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37864983

I learned today this referendum is non-binding. Boggling.
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"I can't believe I'm the only person who voted Stallone. His appeal lies in watching is movies again and again just to hear what the hell he's talking about." - Kilteh

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Narts
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Re: Brexit

Post by Narts » Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:34 am

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Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:38 am

Linkman wrote:http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37864983

I learned today this referendum is non-binding. Boggling.
Every referendum is non-binding. Heck, even every election is technically non-binding. It means nothing. The "left" just can't accept reality.

MPs voted to have a referendum. They've already had a say. And they already agreed to honour the result. All the crybabies can stfu. I have never seen any modern day western political group behave so immaturely.

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