Brexit

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thefalman
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Re: Brexit

Post by thefalman » Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:43 am

Well, it's even less relevant now than when I posted it the day before the referendum, but for PK and anyone else who might give a damn, my thoughts on the matter are here.
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Sven

Re: Brexit

Post by Sven » Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:44 am

THEFALMAN
H
E
F
A
L
M
A
N

better bust out my editors cd

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Joey

Re: Brexit

Post by Joey » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:14 pm

notice how cd is singular
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Joey

Re: Brexit

Post by Joey » Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:50 pm

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.
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Joey

Re: Brexit

Post by Joey » Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:14 pm

it's pretty amazing to watch as the tories self-immolate and labour are like "WELL CLEARLY WE ARE DOOMED, TIME TO SELF-IMMOLATE

these blairite fudge are such cowards
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Xenesis
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Re: Brexit

Post by Xenesis » Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:42 pm

I kind of wish everything else wasn't exploding too, though.
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Kireato

Re: Brexit

Post by Kireato » Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:25 am

Narts wrote:Kireato, you are mistaken if you think I am predicting the fall of socialism merely because some muppet tweeted about it yesterday.

Lol@ unakau not wanting you to talk to me. He's jealous and afraid you might find out I'm actually right.

The truth will not be suppressed.
There are a few things that will cause me to drop out of a conversation. There's laziness, lack of interest and there's when I feel like I'm not actually conversing with someone.

For instance, not only did you fail to define what you meant by the word imminent when asked but your discourse went from the "EU's imminent collapse" to "predicting the fall of socialism", so I really have no idea what you're talking about. The conversation is not happening here and it's silly to ask to stop something that isn't happening.

Sure, Putin is funding numerous political groups in the EU (basically all those far-right or far-left parties whose goal is to exit the EU) to gain their support when Russian matters come up in the EU, but this influence doesn't warrant any scaremongering. There are plenty of other parties who lobby for influence in the EU. Some have a lot to lose from the division of the EU and the loss of its single market. Besides, it's really hard to be worried about Russia when it's not doing that well.
Joey wrote:owned
The EU is going to push the UK into invoking article 50 or announce that they will ignore the result of the referendum (lol democracy) to dispel the uncertainty. Either the UK gets excised from the EU (which is good in itself, even if it is painful) or the sham of all the populist parties haranguing to leave the EU will be revealed. This Brexit will lead to change, although I might be naive about how good it'll be. Politics are often disappointing. We'll see.
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Narts
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Re: Brexit

Post by Narts » Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:29 am

EU is a socialist construct that enables and encourages socialism in Europe.

Therefore, it will fall.

If it doesn't fall by itself, then we must make it fall.

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Pkdragon
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Re: Brexit

Post by Pkdragon » Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:58 am

thefalman wrote:Well, it's even less relevant now than when I posted it the day before the referendum, but for PK and anyone else who might give a damn, my thoughts on the matter are here.
Thanks for posting that, it was pretty insightful. Nice to see you again, Fal!
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That, and watching Euros squirm.

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Joey

Re: Brexit

Post by Joey » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:17 am

EU is decidedly not socialist

also kir i'm guessing you're coming from an anti-neoliberalism perspective in your disdain for the EU?
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scraggypunk
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Re: Brexit

Post by scraggypunk » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:13 am

fudge neoliberalism
wisdom
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daisy
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Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:12 am

I voted leave because it's not socialist lol, despite half the remain side thinking it is.

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Sven

Re: Brexit

Post by Sven » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:23 am

I genuinely don't understand daisy. If you've posted about this in the topic just say so and I'll try to reread carefully. Is your vote a protest vote or do you genuinely believe you'll see stronger worker's rights coming from this? Are you hoping to become Iceland 2.0?

If I had to bet I'd honestly bet on UK citizens losing the NHS in some sort of 'austerity' measure than the left gaining any sort of meaningful power from this.

Hope I'm wrong though.

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Joey

Re: Brexit

Post by Joey » Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:48 am

i think bog's intention is good but i still don't think this is the strategically good time to ditch the EU for the left
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Kireato

Re: Brexit

Post by Kireato » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:21 am

I'm not sure how I came through as disdainful towards the EU since I very much want to see it thrive and grow and I certainly do not think neoliberalism is that bad. That said, any policy which can be described as a simple rule of thumbs is going to have some flaws and I am not an advocate of neoliberalism.

I guess the EU is neoliberal out of necessity? It's the path of least resistance in the muddy environment of the EU decision making process. (I really do not claim to have any deep understanding of the system here.) Unfortunately, what I'd like to see is very unlikely since it would require dissolving the governments of the member states. But that's me, and I lack any nationalistic sentiment.
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Dragonite
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Re: Brexit

Post by Dragonite » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:02 am

While the EU may have right-winged problems, I'm not quite convinced Solo UK will be more left then that anytime soon. The Dutch socialist party is actually euroskeptical because of the EU's neoliberal tedencies. But is neoliberalism truly everything the EU entails nowadays?

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Joey

Re: Brexit

Post by Joey » Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:28 pm

Kireato wrote:I'm not sure how I came through as disdainful towards the EU since I very much want to see it thrive and grow and I certainly do not think neoliberalism is that bad. That said, any policy which can be described as a simple rule of thumbs is going to have some flaws and I am not an advocate of neoliberalism.

I guess the EU is neoliberal out of necessity? It's the path of least resistance in the muddy environment of the EU decision making process. (I really do not claim to have any deep understanding of the system here.) Unfortunately, what I'd like to see is very unlikely since it would require dissolving the governments of the member states. But that's me, and I lack any nationalistic sentiment.
Oh, you're just disdainful to the UK being in the EU.

(By the way, neoliberalism is horrible, but whatever.)
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Joey

Re: Brexit

Post by Joey » Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:28 pm

Xenesis wrote:I kind of wish everything else wasn't exploding too, though.
well yeah but the idea that the brexit is somehow the fault of the corbyn leadership is just stupid, absolutely amazingly dumb
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ThunderWalker
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Re: Brexit

Post by ThunderWalker » Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:21 pm

Kireato wrote: I guess the EU is neoliberal out of necessity? It's the path of least resistance in the muddy environment of the EU decision making process. (I really do not claim to have any deep understanding of the system here.) Unfortunately, what I'd like to see is very unlikely since it would require dissolving the governments of the member states. But that's me, and I lack any nationalistic sentiment.
This.

I am an European. Dutch? Never heard of that.
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Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:37 pm

Joey use the edit button or I'll call daddy again
Sven wrote:I genuinely don't understand daisy. If you've posted about this in the topic just say so and I'll try to reread carefully. Is your vote a protest vote or do you genuinely believe you'll see stronger worker's rights coming from this? Are you hoping to become Iceland 2.0?

If I had to bet I'd honestly bet on UK citizens losing the NHS in some sort of 'austerity' measure than the left gaining any sort of meaningful power from this.

Hope I'm wrong though.
I've already posted about this stuff in both this topic and in the Trump topic, but I'll answer here with more stuff. I recommend a visit to the Trump topic.

Short answer: Iceland 2.0, with a dash of "lets fudge things up" protest. I hate nationalism.

Long answer:
I wouldn't describe myself as a socialist (at least not anymore) as that whole "movement" has been hijacked by SJWs and fourth wave feminist special snowflakes who are the exact opposite of anything resembling liberal and/or progressive. Just so you know where I'm coming from, politically I would put myself with the Lib Dems, but without the Europhile stuff.

Having said that, I've only ever voted for them twice - In 2010 when Nick Clegg was still cool and earlier this year in the Police elections, as the Lib Dems are the only serious party giving a proper crumpets about communications privacy and police access to personal information, having blocked and vetoed various laws surrounding that when they were in coalition. (Now the Tories have a majority, the govt want to fudge ban Snapchat and possibly even Facebook Messenger purely because it's difficult to monitor it. I don't even use Snapchat but the state can GTFO my internet.)

Alas, it's kinda hard to avoid crumpets like that, and crumpets like TTIP, while we're inside the EU. Those who things I suspect were the main reasons Cameron wanted the UK to remain as it would make privatising the NHS and listening in a hell of a lot easier. I cannot put into words how much I distrust David Cameron and his faction within the Conservative party.

I have said many, many times that the economics borderline do not interest me much, as I view the EU's racist two-tier immigration policy as gravely immoral. I would vote leave even if it meant sending the UK back to pre-industrial times economically. However, the ability to tell bankers to fudge off is pretty exciting, especially if we can somehow get a more liberal government in power before the next big crash.

Workers' rights will stay exactly the same as the present government does not have nearly enough political support to even think about reducing them, and next ones won't have enough a majority either. We've had most of the ones that matter for over half a century now. (IE, before the EU was even a thing) After Gordon Brown took the reigns and after getting a lot of crumpets for not calling an election in the late 00s, expect a UK general election within the next 12 months to avoid the new PM being presented with ugly comparisons. We'll probably get a Labour coalition with a smaller party with the way things look now. Dunno if the Lib Dems have completely got rid of their associations yet, but they've experienced a massive surge in popularity over the last week lol.

To be honest, and maybe this is a product of studying politics for 2 years now, I also just plain straight-up love it when the authorities panic and don't know what the fudge to do. Watching Cameron resign was hilarious. The Labour cabinet emptying itself of Blairites was beautiful. The markets are in chaos and I adore that. I love how short-sighted humans are. And I love it when they panic about their little worlds. The thing is, it will all be fine in the long run. Just another history exam question for 16 year olds in the year 2070.

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Re: Brexit

Post by ThunderWalker » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:20 am

Wow. That has to be one of the worst points I've seen since I joined the internet.

"All will be fine in the long run." Sure. Even if humanity kills itself off, I'm pretty sure it'll still be fine, as from the grand pespective of things even something like extermination of the human race is only a small thing.

All will be fine in the long run.
My sig is a void.

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Narts
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Re: Brexit

Post by Narts » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:30 am

The correct reason to hate nationalism is because it's a form of collectivism.

If you don't reject all collectivism you are doing it wrong.

Then again I wouldn't expect consistency from any of you little crumpets. Like most people you are nothing but clueless monkeys stumbling blindly through life and randomly emoting at things.

I LIKE THIS! I DON'T LIKE THIS! I WANT BANANA! I LIKE BANANA!

YOU WANT A fudge BANANA? HERE'S A BANANA FOR YOU.

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HPD
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Re: Brexit

Post by HPD » Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:15 am

Just doing it to watch the world burn seems like a very selfish argument.

Just sayin'
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Kireato

Re: Brexit

Post by Kireato » Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:43 am

Joey wrote:Oh, you're just disdainful to the UK being in the EU.
Disdain is incorrect. The UK has always been opposed to the European project and has shown it by rejecting the Euro, the Schengen area, etc. It's hard to feel that it isn't a good thing to see the UK leave when arguably all it has done as a member of the EU is stall it.
Narts wrote:If you don't reject all collectivism you are doing it wrong.
Society does not work without collectivism.
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Narts
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Re: Brexit

Post by Narts » Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:45 am

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SOCIETY.

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Linkman
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Re: Brexit

Post by Linkman » Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:45 am

Narts wrote:The correct reason to hate nationalism is because it's a form of collectivism.

If you don't reject all collectivism you are doing it wrong.

Then again I wouldn't expect consistency from any of you little crumpets. Like most people you are nothing but clueless monkeys stumbling blindly through life and randomly emoting at things.

I LIKE THIS! I DON'T LIKE THIS! I WANT BANANA! I LIKE BANANA!

YOU WANT A fudge BANANA? HERE'S A BANANA FOR YOU.
But pretty much everyone here has endorsed or embraced some form of collectivism. You are the odd one out here.

Bog: I agree with the others in your argument being crappy. Translate the numbers into real people, real things, real benefits being lost, and it's not funny at all.
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Narts
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Re: Brexit

Post by Narts » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:27 am

...it took me a while to even process that. It's supposed to be a serious post? Directed at me?

Out of all the classical fallacies you could have thrown at me you thought appeal to the people would be the one to persuade me?

Really?

I see. I guess I'll have to drop everything I used to believe now. I have been truly outplayed.

I will do as you say and join Soldiers of Odin this instant. Many friends will be made. I will become part of something larger than myself.

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Joey

Re: Brexit

Post by Joey » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:37 am

daisy wrote:Joey use the edit button or I'll call daddy again
Sven wrote:I genuinely don't understand daisy. If you've posted about this in the topic just say so and I'll try to reread carefully. Is your vote a protest vote or do you genuinely believe you'll see stronger worker's rights coming from this? Are you hoping to become Iceland 2.0?

If I had to bet I'd honestly bet on UK citizens losing the NHS in some sort of 'austerity' measure than the left gaining any sort of meaningful power from this.

Hope I'm wrong though.
I've already posted about this stuff in both this topic and in the Trump topic, but I'll answer here with more stuff. I recommend a visit to the Trump topic.

Short answer: Iceland 2.0, with a dash of "lets fudge things up" protest. I hate nationalism.

Long answer:
I wouldn't describe myself as a socialist (at least not anymore) as that whole "movement" has been hijacked by SJWs and fourth wave feminist special snowflakes who are the exact opposite of anything resembling liberal and/or progressive. Just so you know where I'm coming from, politically I would put myself with the Lib Dems, but without the Europhile stuff.

Having said that, I've only ever voted for them twice - In 2010 when Nick Clegg was still cool and earlier this year in the Police elections, as the Lib Dems are the only serious party giving a proper crumpets about communications privacy and police access to personal information, having blocked and vetoed various laws surrounding that when they were in coalition. (Now the Tories have a majority, the govt want to fudge ban Snapchat and possibly even Facebook Messenger purely because it's difficult to monitor it. I don't even use Snapchat but the state can GTFO my internet.)

Alas, it's kinda hard to avoid crumpets like that, and crumpets like TTIP, while we're inside the EU. Those who things I suspect were the main reasons Cameron wanted the UK to remain as it would make privatising the NHS and listening in a hell of a lot easier. I cannot put into words how much I distrust David Cameron and his faction within the Conservative party.

I have said many, many times that the economics borderline do not interest me much, as I view the EU's racist two-tier immigration policy as gravely immoral. I would vote leave even if it meant sending the UK back to pre-industrial times economically. However, the ability to tell bankers to fudge off is pretty exciting, especially if we can somehow get a more liberal government in power before the next big crash.

Workers' rights will stay exactly the same as the present government does not have nearly enough political support to even think about reducing them, and next ones won't have enough a majority either. We've had most of the ones that matter for over half a century now. (IE, before the EU was even a thing) After Gordon Brown took the reigns and after getting a lot of crumpets for not calling an election in the late 00s, expect a UK general election within the next 12 months to avoid the new PM being presented with ugly comparisons. We'll probably get a Labour coalition with a smaller party with the way things look now. Dunno if the Lib Dems have completely got rid of their associations yet, but they've experienced a massive surge in popularity over the last week lol.

To be honest, and maybe this is a product of studying politics for 2 years now, I also just plain straight-up love it when the authorities panic and don't know what the fudge to do. Watching Cameron resign was hilarious. The Labour cabinet emptying itself of Blairites was beautiful. The markets are in chaos and I adore that. I love how short-sighted humans are. And I love it when they panic about their little worlds. The thing is, it will all be fine in the long run. Just another history exam question for 16 year olds in the year 2070.
There are good points to make for Brexit, but this is a shockingly terrible post. The entire way through. Particularly the bit about socialism and social justice. My god.

Actually, nah, the thing that other people are shocked about is still worse.
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Linkman
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Re: Brexit

Post by Linkman » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:56 am

Narts wrote:...it took me a while to even process that. It's supposed to be a serious post? Directed at me?

Out of all the classical fallacies you could have thrown at me you thought appeal to the people would be the one to persuade me?

Really?

I see. I guess I'll have to drop everything I used to believe now. I have been truly outplayed.

I will do as you say and join Soldiers of Odin this instant. Many friends will be made. I will become part of something larger than myself.
It was not an attempt to appeal to you in any way. I was merely pointing out that your point of view is extremely unpopular and given that it requires popularity to have any effect, it's an extremely futile point of view.
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Narts
Rank: hey daddy-o

Re: Brexit

Post by Narts » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:58 am

There's a reason I'm not running for political office.

I'll leave that for the Trumps and Putins who know how to play that game.

bog2

Re: Brexit

Post by bog2 » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:32 am

I think it's pretty obvious that the last paragraph of my post was more of a side effect. Of course it's the not the main reason lol. Read the rest of what I've said.

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scraggypunk
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Re: Brexit

Post by scraggypunk » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:40 am

remember friends, nazis have no rights as they are not humans
wisdom
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Dragonite
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Re: Brexit

Post by Dragonite » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:37 am

I must admit I'm also taking a more of a watch it burn stance, since the deed has been done and there's nothing I can personally do to prevent it. Like Bog, political science makes it more interesting. I would have gone for remain myself though. And one has to consider the many practical problems, or the general awkwardness of a economic recession UK people now have to deal with in their everyday lives. Being free of the neoliberal EU also won't mean much if the UK itself won't be acting significantly better.

My proposal for the world's bright future is world war 3 with neo-vikings bringing us northern enlightenment.

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Joey

Re: Brexit

Post by Joey » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:55 am

I would vote leave even if it meant sending the UK back to pre-industrial times economically.
I just want to let this sink in for everyone.
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daisy
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Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:00 am

The watch it burn thing is not my main reason and never was. If you read my previous posts and the Trump topic you would know that. Remainer tears do sure taste good though.

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Joey

Re: Brexit

Post by Joey » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:37 am

It doesn't matter what your main reason is, the fact remains that you have a very, very callous response to the idea of people economically hurting.
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daisy
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Re: Brexit

Post by daisy » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:24 am

What? Where? Not even a week has passed yet. Show me one single example of a regular person being economically fudge by Brexit. All I see are crumpets bankers and financiers, who deserve to be screwed.

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Xenesis
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Re: Brexit

Post by Xenesis » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:32 am

daisy wrote:What? Where? Not even a week has passed yet. Show me one single example of a regular person being economically fudge by Brexit. All I see are crumpets bankers and financiers, who deserve to be screwed.
A friend of mine lives in Scotland and does research using EU science grants. He's basically been told that it's highly likely that he won't get a renewal for what he's doing because they can't guarantee the future funding.

So that's at least one person.
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

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Joey

Re: Brexit

Post by Joey » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:09 am

I'm not saying it's happened. I'm saying you seem to not even care about the idea. So in response to your what? Where? There's, well...
I would vote leave even if it meant sending the UK back to pre-industrial times economically.
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Terragent
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Re: Brexit

Post by Terragent » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:32 am

I'm not sure how the pound dropping to record lows isn't going to hurt people - poor people disproportionately so - given that the UK is a net importer of food and a bunch of other stuff besides. Consumer goods and basic necessities are almost inevitably going to become more expensive because the currency being used to buy them is worth less.

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