Rights and Abortion

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konspakatak

Post by konspakatak » Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:38 pm

Oh god... I emember having this discussion in Studies in Religion last year... And then she started rambling about Big Brother. WTF was she thinking.

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Hans Stockmann
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Post by Hans Stockmann » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:00 pm

No, the Big Brother discussion was a different time.
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Hooded_Miracle
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Post by Hooded_Miracle » Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:45 am

X_x

Big Brother?

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FormicHiveQueen
Location: Washington State, USA

Post by FormicHiveQueen » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:15 am

While I do support abortion (I'm only a 13-7 conservative) I only support it to a certain point. I define sentient life as anything with a brain capable of higher thought (e.g. able to think beyond what is needed for survival). So, if an embryo/fetus/wtf has not gotten to the point of developing most of its brain (it's still only recently formed etc.) then you can still abort it without it being murder because it has not achieved sentience yet. After about a month or so of existing, the human brain is developed enough to be considered sentient (at least in my opinion). It is at this point that any abortion should be considered murder. In other words, the current system with which the US coducts abortion is perfectly acceptable. The Chinese method (the baby can be aborted up until the point when it is all the way outside the mother) is the one that can be considered murder.

If you go by the belief that that killing a fetus at any stage is murder, you must starve yourself to death, because by that definition eating or killing anything that was once alive is murder. Only the killing of sentient life is murder, else we would be forbidden by our own laws to eat or kill anything biological. It is absolutely silly, therefore, to consider a fetus sentient before it has a fully functional brain, and therefore equally silly to consider the death of a fetus before that stage murder. Only a fully functional brain capable of higher thought (which, again, are thoughts beyond those needed for survival) is sentient.

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huXgDYuaD

Post by TestName » Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:59 am

Test myfunction comment

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donnytondesterkste
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Post by donnytondesterkste » Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:19 am

FHQ, while I respect your opinion and I think it's well thought about and developed.

However, while in theory it's the best solution, there's simply NO WAY to tell exactly WHEN a brain is capable of higher thinking as of now. You're circumventing the problem: now we have to determine when the baby is capable of thinking.

I'm sure you have no recollection of anything before you were a year old or so, and chances are, you didn't have any morals, any critical thoughts, any inference, and very little recognition, at best you knew when your mother was nearby.

While you can say that the brain does mature at a certain age, this is not at all any way to determine "sentience" nor "consciousness" as we know it. There's always going to be say, a mother who wants to abort and is just at the point when the brain is at the age of maturity. What to do then? Your way makes sense, but it isn't much of a solution.

I'd also like to point out that there is argument that life begins at conception because a cell by itself is a body with a "brain" and so essentially there is the most basic, primal level of sentience after conception. There are then others who would argue that you don't "truly" become mature and conscious until you're several years old, as you may have recollection of events before then but you're rarely making decisions outside of a spoiled, hungry need.

So I agree with parts of your opinion and you've obviously come to a much more rational stance than say, the overreligious, but there's a more important question at hand: Can we use the principle to make laws? And the answer for yours is simply no, your belief may work for each individual but doesn't offer any clear way to determine a standard.


Personally I agree with you that there IS a vast difference between a child at conception and at birth. However, I disagree that we can consider even a developed fetus a "sentient being". Realistically, the best thing to do right now is to set a precise line that pleases the most people that are relevant to the situation. Whether it be 30 days, 720 hours, or when the brain shows X level of activity, the only way this will get anywhere is if lawmakers draw a clear line (or get rid of the law altogether).
"I'd sig that, but no room. >_>" -Blame Game

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FormicHiveQueen
Location: Washington State, USA

Post by FormicHiveQueen » Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:14 am

I didn't read past you saying that we don't know when the human brain is capable of thought, because actually we do. I don't remember exactly when they say it starts, but I think it was in the area of just after 2 months.

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Joey Chicago
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Post by Joey Chicago » Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:18 am

FormicHiveQueen wrote:I didn't read past you saying that we don't know when the human brain is capable of thought, because actually we do. I don't remember exactly when they say it starts, but I think it was in the area of just after 2 months.
IN THE AREA OF TWO MONTHS.

In cases, it can start sooner or later. We have no idea.

The fact that you stopped reading saddens me, FHQ, as he made a few incredibly good points.
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NovaCid9
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Post by NovaCid9 » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:47 am

Abortion's a tricky subject, so I'm not exactly positive about my views on it. However, I'd like to offer a situation. Let's say fairly late in the pregnancy, it becomes apparent that the birth would kill the mother. It's a rare situation, but I believe it's possible, considering some birth defects. What then? Obviously, it would be in the hands of the mother, but if she chose to have an abortion, would that be morally wrong?
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Joey Chicago
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Post by Joey Chicago » Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:11 pm

I don't believe so. I'm against abortion all ways, as we can never possibly be sure when consciousness starts. However, in this case, I believe that it's okay. I don't even have a good reason to back it up. I just believe that.
"Live every week like it's Shark Week." - Tracy Jordan

"And there's a tax on people who smoke tobacco with a bong in public solely to be provocative." - Chris Onstad

i am a heron. i ahev a long neck and i pick fish out of the water w/ my beak. if you dont repost this comment on 10 other pages i will fly into your kitchen tonight and make a mess of your pots and pans

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FormicHiveQueen
Location: Washington State, USA

Post by FormicHiveQueen » Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:09 pm

Unakau wrote:
FormicHiveQueen wrote:I didn't read past you saying that we don't know when the human brain is capable of thought, because actually we do. I don't remember exactly when they say it starts, but I think it was in the area of just after 2 months.
IN THE AREA OF TWO MONTHS.

In cases, it can start sooner or later. We have no idea.

The fact that you stopped reading saddens me, FHQ, as he made a few incredibly good points.
Hey, they gave something more specific, okay. That's just the best I can recall.

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Joey Chicago
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Post by Joey Chicago » Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:44 pm

I seriously doubt that they can even pinpoint an exact week.
"Live every week like it's Shark Week." - Tracy Jordan

"And there's a tax on people who smoke tobacco with a bong in public solely to be provocative." - Chris Onstad

i am a heron. i ahev a long neck and i pick fish out of the water w/ my beak. if you dont repost this comment on 10 other pages i will fly into your kitchen tonight and make a mess of your pots and pans

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DTaeKim
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Post by DTaeKim » Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:53 pm

It's the woman's body. That's the way I see it.
What can change the nature of a man?

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