Tier List (NOV 2010)

Talk about the shiny-new post-apocalyptic Advance Wars game here.
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Xenesis
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Xenesis » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:19 pm

Yeah, Tasha is slightly less terrible than first thought.
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Guest » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:48 am

I'm guessing the strategy is to put her in a BC/Duster...? I'd like an explanation as to why she's better than Penny though

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by ALAKTORN » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:48 am

why was I logged off...

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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:22 am

Penny's stats are terrible.
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by ALAKTORN » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:00 pm

doesn't Tasha give the same stats but has only 1 zone? maybe I remember wrong...

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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:07 pm

Tasha gives air units a bonus. Penny gives all units a universal default bonus.
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by ALAKTORN » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:51 am

I still don't see what the strategy is with her.. a CO BC shouldn't do much if countered with AAs, and Dusters are expensive and not very good units...

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:48 am

She plays like a gimped Tabitha. Her B-copter can OHKO nearly anything without terrain defense.
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Narts » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:52 am

Hey AA's are not exactly unstoppable themselves

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by ALAKTORN » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:05 am

WWN really needs an AWDoR CO section :S what's bland AA on Tasha BC? isn't it almost OHKO? like 2-3HP at best left for Tasha? that doesn't look so good... if I remember correctly she has low defense and high attack

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deemo

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by deemo » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:59 am

Thing is, Tasha is so powerful, pretty much like an aerial Lin, I suppose you could say. Too bad her COP is nearly worthless. But if you copter spam with tank support, you have at least somewhat of a chance. Destroy their tanks with bcopters, then advance your tanks and attack the AA. Missiles can mess her up in some places, though, whereas Waylon wouldn't be as affected.

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Xenesis » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:35 pm

ALAKTORN wrote:WWN really needs an AWDoR CO section :S
It's coming with the site redesign.
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Guest » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:40 am

Tasha>Greyfield?

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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:50 am

That much was obvious. At least Tasha has a serviceable COP.
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Guest » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:32 pm

How is Waylon not underpowered anymore? All he boosts is air.

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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:54 pm

Most maps have airports now. Waylon's COP is almost an instant win if activated at the right time.
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:56 am

Tabitha plummeted because we made airports standard. The case for making airports standard is natural: it makes the air specialists usable, and putting air on a map doesn't require the radical map design changes that sea demands. The Tabitank finally gets a hard counter.

At this point the only real debatable is Waylon vs. Tabitha, and maybe Tasha vs. Penny. Tabitha has a case to be above Waylon due to her "shorter" CO meter (6/12 is a virtual instant win), but after a bunch of random wi-fi games (using my custom list) where I used Waylon against Tabitha, Waylon's COP bailed me out almost every single time.

Tasha vs. Penny hasn't been extensively tested, but a Tashacopter will OHKO any 100 or 110 DEF soldier, tank, or indirect. It's basically a $13500 bomber that can't hit antiair or antitanks (but who uses those?)

Remember, you're welcome to provide results that challenge mine. Challenging the status quo is how the tier list evolved to what it is today. Mechs rule~

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by ALAKTORN » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:10 am

by the way, I like Forsythe in underpowered, I think I gave you that suggestion some time ago ;) Tasha and Waylon movements make sense if you're considering Air maps more, so I guess I won't say anything against it

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:48 am

Yeah, I’ve still been lurking around all this time and I wanted to play devil’s advocate for this latest tier list. Specifically, with the placement of Greyfield in his own lol Flak tier.

Since land-air maps are now the standard for the metagame has anyone given Greyfield a serious test on wi-fi utilizing B-Copters? Now just bear with me for a minute but if you utilize Copters with Greyfield then he does not seem that much worse than Penny in the great land of theorytarding. They both have the same CO Zone but Greyfield actually provides a not-so-insignificant boost to two units. In fact, the defense boost makes it impossible to OHKO his B-Copters with an Anti-Air that lacks a significant attack boost and he really blunts the first strike capabilities of the enemy’s B-Copters against his own. Furthermore, while Penny’s COP is strictly better (3 days of Sandstorms ftw) it is also unreliable while Greyfield’s is semi-useful for supplying air units.

Now, I’m not trying to argue that Greyfield is good but I’m just suggesting that he might suck only enough to be in the bottom ranks of the Poor tier rather than in his own Awful tier. I’m just curious if anyone who regularly plays wi-fi has tested out a Copterfield strategy since the metagame change and, if they have not, then perhaps they should try it against the other Poor tier COs. I would like to know just how effective it really is since my own, albeit limited, testing has shown it to be reasonably effective against Penny and Tasha.
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by ThunderWalker » Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:28 pm

At least, in theory, Greyfield will beat Penny even without navy, at least D2D. Result is that
Greyfield will CO a copter, which is 140/170, and has 120/150 copters in a MASSIVE zone.

And I still think Forsythe can thwart Lin (but has trouble with everybody else in fair anyway, except Tabitha which matchup looks fairly even). At least in theory. I can explain, but considering my experience, you'll don't take it serious anyway :P
Forsythe can counter Lin, without being better than her.
Like Kanbei counters Colin in previous games. Kanbei isn't better than Colin but he still wins in that matchup.
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by deemo » Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:00 am

Forsythe can counter Lin, without being better than her.
No, not necessarily.

Lin will almost always CO a tank (Or in some situations, a MD tank). Even with the boost, a 120/120 tank cannot handle a 150/150 one. This is, of course, assuming that Forsythe does not CO a tank. If he does CO a tank, however, then he loses his CO infantry/bike strategy, and the tank still gets beat by Lin. 10/10 more can make a difference. Because of how Lin plays, she can get 3 zone easily. Even if she gets hurt, she can go behind the lines to boost artillery until she gets higher zone, or can be joined with another tank. Once Lin does get 3 zone, almost all her units will have an advantage over Forsythe. Sure, Forsythe does have an advantage in the air, but his aerial units are not boosted enough to make a significant difference.

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by ThunderWalker » Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:15 am

Keep a solid wall which doesn't get broke and KO the 150/150 CO Tank with three artillery units. Forsythe is preferably Blue Moon; he will CO the same tank as Lin. He lets Lin deal the first strike on him: 4-9. Good.
4-7, 4-5, 4-2 the turn after with three Artilleries, KO with the 4 HP Forsythe Md Tank. Bye, Lin. But well, the Lin player isn't stupid, so Lin OHKO's the Flare, but fails in KO'ing other units which are out of reach. Again, retaliation with Artillery and the Md Tank. If the lines are closer, other units are probably in reach, but even the OHKO of one artillery piece with a tank isn't enough to stop the KO of the Lin Md Tank. Forsythe's line is wrecked, but Lin loses her Md Tank again. Again, taking 25% damage twice and 40% from the Md Tank, if on some terrain. If the artillery attacked by the tank survives at even 1 HP, which will likely happen (130/130 cannot OHKO a 120/120 artillery unit, which survives with at least 2 HP on roads and 3 HP on plains), the MD Tank will get KO'd for sure. The tank can get KO'd with another pair of artillery units: 75/1.4 (Tank assumed on plains) = 52%. Goodbye, Lin. Forsythe has to have 58k invested at least (CO Md Tank, 2 Flares, 5 Artilleries), Lin has probably invested the same (CO Md Tank, and a few tanks and now useless anti-airs), next to the few Mechs and Infantry scattered around. But, as long as the sides are well protected with mountains, Lin's tanks can't KO Forsythe's Flares or Mechs.
With Tanks, well, it is even easier.
Forsythe wants to hold a solid line with 120/120 units. Even on Roads, Lin's 150/150 tank cannot KO a 120/120 tank. The 120/120 tank will lose, but Forsythe can always retaliate with artillery or tanks. A Lin-Tank is also unable to OHKO Flares on terrain, forcing her to CO a Md Tank against Forsythe. Forsythe should prevent it from attacking, with treating heavy retaliation with artillery, placing a strong unit which can survive a Lin Md Tank hit at a place where you WANT it, and otherwise halting Lin's advance while advancing yourself, or building up an even larger force which can get boosted as well (unlike Lin, who boosts only 5 units in the beginning). And yeah, Forsythe should CO a tank or Md Tank. The Forsythe Bike doesn't look well to me because you lose the +20/20 thing which can come in handy against several CO's, especially Lin and maybe Tabitha.

However, this is only in theory. Forsythe is good on certain maps which allow attacking on a large front, preferably 4-7 spaces wide or which contain huge block- or piramid shaped chokes where Forsythe can boost all Indirects and Copters he flooded (Beaker River, for example).
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Guest » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:04 am

Though this doesn't directly concern tiers, it does have to do with the metagame on AW4. First I'd like to say I've been a fan of the AW series since the first GBA game, and I own every game now. I just recently purchased AW4, though I can't recall why I put off buying it. I was never big into the multiplayer aspects of the AW series since I didn't have many friends to play with, and the few times I did play against friends, we were forced to use single cartridge play (I guess it's not actually a problem). Of course now that I own AW4 I can just hop on wi-fi or find people online to play with. Unfortunately, after reading some topics on this forum, especially this one, I will probably only play one or two games, maybe none ever.

It isn't that I think the metagame sounds lame, or I'm one of those guys that shuns competitive gaming. No I'm far from that. My main problem is that I just don't understand it. Maybe it's because I haven't played the game a lot yet, but all of this strategy and CO use just flies over my head. I played a great deal of the other games and took a lot of time into understanding the game. I don't think I would have done great against some of the guys that theorized on strategies and got to play against decent players, but I wouldn't have looked terrible in my losses. AW4 though just seems like everything has become incredibly more complex.

I don't know if I'm trying to make a point with this, and I'm certainly not trying to idiotically denounce the metagame of AW4. I guess I just wanted to comment that AW4 is far more difficult to master the gameplay than the previous games in the series. Also I support the advancement of the game's metagame and if I can ever understand it, I may start looking for some challenges.

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:29 am

ThunderWalker, the problem with your debate is that you presume a specific scenario where the Lin player falls for your intricate set-up as Forsythe. You can't do that. In fact, it only certifies Lin's position above Forsythe because the situation where Forsythe can defeat Lin is very limited and draws more on player skill than CO stats.
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:21 am

@Thunderwalker

I agree with DTK on the Lin vs. Forsythe scenario. Lin is simply stronger in more situations than Forsythe is and this strength only increases once the player maxes out Lin’s CO Zone.

@Guest

Compared to the previous AW’s the DoR metagame is far more dynamic and interesting (albeit, more complicated since it takes more skill to use COs effectively) although it does have its shortcomings with some of the units. The best way to understand it is to gain experience fighting other opponents on wi-fi. To be honest many of the opponents you will encounter on random wi-fi will not actually follow the metagame that is described online (and this tier list is based on) and you might even encounter some hackers in random games too. That is why you are generally better off trying to exchange friend codes with decent players on GameFAQs or one of the still active AW communities (or just play with your own circle of friends and ignore the online metagame altogether).


Anyway… no further comments on Copterfield?
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:21 pm

There is only one way to find out. Does a COP beat better stats?
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:15 pm

And a random COP at that. There is little doubt that a three day Sandstorm from Penny does help to compensate for her lack of any true day-to-day boost but it is so... unlikely that she can generate multiple Sandstorms in a row. Rain could be useful... if Penny could plan ahead for it while Snow has the least impact of them all. Thus, you can really only assume that you will see a three day Sandstorm one out of every three times you use her COP. Thus, does an unreliable COP beat better stats? ... arguably not in this case.

Personally, with land-air maps being the standard now I would rather use Greyfield for superior B-Copters than Penny for her unreliable COP. Sticking Greyfield in a B-Copter gives it 140/170 stats which enables him to have 98% against an enemy Tank (almost an assured OHKO) that has no defense boost while taking 61% damage from an Anti-Air. Meanwhile, Greyfield's Copter can take on Tasha's Bomber-Copter on mostly even ground (Tasha still has a slight stat advantage but Greyfield does have a much better CO Zone). Sure, Greyfield is not a true air specialist but Copter units are undoubtedly useful within the meta-game.

Then again Greyfield does seem to struggle against the third Poor tier CO, Forsythe. They both lack ice breakers and both have large CO Zones but Forsythe provides a smaller boost to all units while Greyfield's stats are entirely focused on two units in land-air maps and his stat boost is primarily defensive. Still, being fairly competitive against two out of the three Poor tier COs is not completely useless (in fact, a Greyfield B-Copter can weather a Tabitank and his Copter force can clash on pretty equal footing against a Waylon Copter force... at least until Waylon gets other air units and/or his COP) which is why Greyfield arguably deserve a spot toward the bottom of the Poor Tier rather than in his own, special Awful tier. As I said before, I would be very interested to hear if anyone has had the opportunity to really test Greyfield out on land-air maps in wi-fi games to see how the theory holds up in practice.
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by ThunderWalker » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:07 pm

The Greyfield thing is very interesting.

About Forsythe>Lin (and Forsythe < everybody else not named Penny, Greyfield or Tasha)
On smaller fronts Lin can still not bash through a Forsythe-line, altough Forsythe's advantage is smaller. Forsythe can simply CO a B-copter to have 120/120 units where he wants them, if the map has multiple fronts which are far away from eachother. An well, if both go for the main front, Forsythe wins (even against a 3-zone Lin). If Forsythe goes for the main front and Lin for a secondary one close to the main front, Forsythe can provide support with his B-Copters and the odd Rocket he built, which are all 120/120. Heck, he can have a rocket at the edge of his zone, to provide heavy fire support far away if Lin decides to attack on that faraway front. Forsythe is maybe not at his best with multiple far away fronts, but well, he has the zone to provide heavy fire support where and whenever needed. And if the fronts are still close to eachother (Beaker River, but also many and many AWBW maps). And Forsythe can cut off the reïnforcements Lin needs on those large maps...
I'll see, however, that Forsythe's advantage lies in the relatively small stat difference while having a HUGE zone difference in the beginning and always an theoretical advantage, even if Lin maxes out her zone.

But probably I am just talking crap. :P
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by deemo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:20 am

Forsytheline? First of all, it's highly unlikely that Forsythe will get a "line" of units. As stated, she OHKOs infantry-type units easily, and trying to flood tanks is much too slow. More than that, you are assuming that Lin will not use her superior indirects, or b-copters to break a line. Furthermore, Lin will use the early game to her advantage to get as much zone as possible quickly, before you can make a defensive line. Due to better defensive stats than other COs, she can go on gambits that allow her to gain zone early. If she gets 3 or even 2 zone, she doesn't need to be in danger. She can just hang out around the back as a trump unit and boost practically all of the units on that front. The difference between 3 zone and 5 zone actually isn't much at all. Regardless, if there are multiple fronts, Lin can focus on one. Forsythe will be forced to focus on that front as well, or lose it quickly. Should Forsythe try a b-copter, he is at an immediate disadvantage. 130/130 AA can OHKO a 140/140 b-copter, giving Lin easy zone. Thus, Forsythe is left with a CO unit that cannot easily attack, while Lin keeps her strong 150/150 CO unit in the action.

Why are you mentioning Rockets anyway? They aren't very useful nowadays with the introduction of tanks into the metagame, and especially with b-copters running around now.

All of your reasoning is based on the assumption that the Lin player will let you get a defensive line. You underestimate the actual size of 3 zone. As DTK said, a Lin player of equal skill is not going to fall for such a setup, or even let you get one.

Most importantly, though, I am curious as to why you included Flares in your post before, as they are useless outside of FoW, which is not part of the metagame.

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by ThunderWalker » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:25 pm

Okey...
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:15 pm

Haven't been around in a while.

(Greyfield)
The CO matchup is mostly a push because a 140/170 b-copter isn't going to bust through any lines. Yes, in practice, this can deal with a bland tank (70 x 1.4 = 98), but most tanks will have at least +10 DEF due to zone, and maybe another +10 DEF due to plains terrain. Waylon already has slight trouble getting OHKOs and needs his COP to break through. Greyfield doesn't have that luxury. Greyfield's 170 DEF for his CO unit doesn't matter much because the only 2HKO it prevents is double 110 ATK b-copter.

Assuming that both players keep the CO units alive, Penny should have an advantage because her land units are equal to Greyfield's. Well, you're welcome to play games and make a case for Greyfield through testing.

My main problem is that I just don't understand (the metagame)
The main difference between this game and the previous games is offensive CO meter charging. You can't just play poorly and then have the COP bail you out. (Can you find anyone who says they're bad with Eagle?) In the previous games, people massed infantry and then suicided b-copters at each other until they got their COP/SCOP. In this game, infantry are mostly disregarded past the capture phase for two reasons: 1) They are weak points in a defense, allowing the opponent to prey on them and charge meter; 2) teching up is more important in this game than in the previous ones.

Offensive CO meter charging can cause PvP games to be complete blowouts. One player may get multiple CO powers and the other player may get none at all. At least with the old games, if you were losing terribly, you'd have a glimmer of hope with the SCOP. Not so much with this game.

(Forsythe)
I don't really want to get into theoretical positional discussion, since actual game testing is more conclusive. All I'll say is that we played the hell out of Forsythe and he just couldn't do anything late game, where armies are massed and battle lines are in place.
Last edited by GipFace on Mon May 03, 2010 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:56 am

I only raised the Greyfield issue because I had not seen much discussion about him with the metagame change to land/air maps. It also sounds like there has not been much testing on him either but I suppose that is understandable since it is obvious that he is handicapped in the current metagame. In my own, again limited, testing Greyfield was fairly competitive against Penny (when her COP refused to cooperate) and, to a lesser extent, Tasha. That is the only reason why I raised the question of whether he sucked just enough to be at the lower end of the Poor Tier but I guess it ultimately does not matter since he would still be at the bottom.
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by HPD » Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:47 am

Edited the first post with the current tiers as of November 2010. Brenner moves up a spot over Gage, while Tasha loses a spot to Penny.
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by RadioShadow » Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:36 am

Why is Greyfield considered to be so underpowered? Waylon and Tasha for example are only good if a map has airports / air units. If a map doesn't have those, they become useless. It's not even worth using thier CO Powers. You might as well just go ahead and use Penny who's CO Power would at least slow down / weaken the units offence.

Now let me just mention that there is no way to resupply the unit's "materials" in this game. Even if you are on on a City / Port or get a APC unit, it will only supply the units Ammo and Fuel. If you want to make more Temp Ports / Temp Airports or build more Seaplanes, you would have to make more APCs or Carriers. What a waste of money.

Now I see people mention Greyfield's CO Power is useless. Well let's go back to Advance Wars 2 and look at Jess's CO Powers. While she was weak with Air and Sea units, it doesn't mean you don't use those units. Her CO power basically resupplied all units ammo and fuel, which is a great help to air units which lose fuel each day. It actually allows you to produce other units instead of APCs to resupply the units or keep having to go back to properties to resupply them, which cost funds to do so.

Now Greyfield's CO Powers works in a similar way to Jess'. His CO Power resupplies the ammo, fuel and materials to ALL UNITS! Unlike Jess however, none of his units have weaknesses, and you will be surprised how helpful it is to just resupply the units where they currently are without having to go back to a property / APC or use a APC to resupply them. Also Greyfield can pretty much make endless Seaplanes (it will still cost you to make them) or Temp Ports / Temp Airports with just one unit.

Greyfield can basically be used on any type of map, even if he doesn't have air or unit support. The problem is, if he doesn't have air or naval backup, COs like Will or Lin who have an advantage with ground units. He does have a CO Zone of 3 which like Brenner, allows him to charge up his CO Power more quickly.

In fact, I think Tasha is worse off than Greyfield. Her COP just increases the air units movement by 2, similar to how Adder's Super CO Power which can be very useful in reaching certain places. Adder's Super CO Power however worked on all units which made him useful on any map. Tasha's only works on Air units, which is fine if you have air units, but maker her worthless if she has none. That CO Zone 1 is also pathetic. At least with Lin's (her CO Zone is 1) it made her ground units more powerful and can be used on any map (unless it's just a air & / or port map, but those type of maps are rare).

Greyfield isn't the best CO in the game, especially on land only maps, but he isn't useless or "fail" as the tier list has put it.

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Xenesis » Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:48 am

Airports are considered standard on any map worth playing.

Greyfield suffers from the problem that the naval play in DoR is pretty much broken. His copter defence boost isn't enough to get anything out of (they still die like flies) and unlike Tasha he can't kill things.

Supplies are of minimal use, unfortunately.
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:29 pm

Greyfield's copters still pale to Tasha and Waylon's. Couple that with an inferior COP and he's probably the worst CO.
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by RadioShadow » Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:40 am

So it's better for an air unit to gain an extra +2 movement instead of resupplying the ammo and fuel? I kinda of disagree.

Tasha is more useful as a offensive CO since that extra movement during CO Powers allows her to attack a unit at a further distance while doing extra damage. Greyfield on the other hand is more useful as a defensive CO since resupplying air units fuel and ammo means they can attack more units. Plus there is no need to keep using a Rig / Carrier.

I will admit resupplying ammo, fuel and materials is more helpful on larger maps, especially if there are quite far away from Rigs, Carriers or Properties. This means you don't have to keep track on resupplying the units but instead focus on attacking other units.

It's a bit unfair to say Greyfield is the worse CO when his abilities can be used on any map while Tasha and Waylon are pretty much useless if the map doesn't have Air Ports or Air Units. At least if I was to use Greyfield in Random Wifi matches, the CO Power would have more use.

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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:07 pm

In the times I've played online, I can only remember one instance of a unit running out of fuel or ammo. Games don't last long enough for that to happen.
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GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:32 am

Waylon and Tasha for example are only good if a map has airports / air units.
Airports are required to make Tabitha and Lin fair. Without the b-copter, a Tabitha or Lin CO tank can claim a key area quickly before mechs are able to challenge them. The airport introduces the copter > tank > antiair > copter triangle. Older games suffered from tank spam because copters sucked (vs tanks - AW3: 55% and old formula; AW4: 70% and new formula) and tanks didn't have a cheap hard counter. The current budget percentage for the core units (artillery, tank, mech, b-copter) is 19/11/11/11. Antiair+duster is 10%. That's great. When airports weren't standard, the artillery budget approached 25%. So to sum it up, AW4 b-copters balanced the game in ways that were never anticipated or expected at first. It weakens CO tank shenanigans, reduces artillery spam, and encourages more unit variety. Unit composition is about 54% for the core units and 90% if you include the support units, but 90% divided among nine units is a lot better than what seemed like 90% infantry in AW3.

At launch, people talked about all the units with different costs (infantry/mech/cruiser/battleship) or effects (missiles +1 range, AW3 md tank turned into war tank with -1 HP), or the new units (AW4 md tank, duster, etc.) The b-copter damage chart change, coupled with the damage formula change, ended up being more important than most of them, but its effect on the game was so sublime and under-the radar that it took us nearly 2 years to realize it. It was the high-level revelation this game needed.

As for Waylon's effectiveness, he usually incurs more loss value until he gets the COP, much like Gage and Tabitha. Tasha's COP is useless, and testing hasn't been kind to the Tashacopter, so for now she's below Penny again.

Now let me just mention that there is no way to resupply the unit's "materials" in this game.
Having 2 temp airports instead of 1 doesn't do much. You usually never build more than 1 rig, if at all. T-copters are preferred if a mech transport chain is needed.

Unlike Jess however, none of (Greyfield's) units have weaknesses
110/110 units are a weakness. 110 DEF soldiers mean that Will and Lin can OHKO with antiair. Tasha can OHKO with her Tashacopter, and Gage can OHKO with artillery. 100/100 is even worse, and it's so bad that it put Tabitha at the bottom of fair.

Rig supplying is overrated in general. Due to the nature of scattered cities in most maps, it's usually better to just retreat a land unit to a city if it needs restocking. That leaves air units, but a duster has 9 ammo and b-copters have 6. If a b-copter used all its ammo, it's likely injured and has some level ups. Just join it up with a fresh b-copter and enjoy a buffed unit.

Reference

Code: Select all

(unit/composition%/budget%)

Core units
Artillery 16.4/19.2
Mech      23.8/11.6
B-Copter   6.5/11.5
Tank       7.7/10.5

Support units
Bike      13.7/ 6.7
Duster     2.0/ 5.1
Antiair    3.6/ 4.9
Bomber     1.2/ 4.5
Infantry  14.6/ 4.3

~90% unit composition consists of these 9 units
~78% budget consists of these 9 units

Niche units
Rockets    1.1/ 3.0
Fighter    0.6/ 2.3
Md Tank    1.0/ 2.2
Seaplane   0.8/ 2.2
War Tank   0.4/ 1.4
Flare      1.2/ 1.2
T-Copter   1.1/ 1.1
Recon      1.2/ 0.9
Rig        0.8/ 0.8
Missiles   0.3/ 0.7
Antitank   0.2/ 0.5
ALL SEA    1.8/ 5.4
Md tanks got the shaft once b-copter play increased because b-copters resist mechs better than md tanks. I don't use Lin much, though, so its usage might increase once I play her more. I built a lot of fighters because I had Deep Defense in my rotation for a while. Seaplanes are also up there because I force them with Waylon when there are only seaports. Both my fighter and seaplane figures shouldn't be taken too seriously: fighters are more narrow than antitanks and missiles.

As you can see at the bottom, sea units are rarely built, so I lumped them all together. Could we stop discussing the implications of sea-based maps already? Why is everyone drawn to sea units? The concept of sea battling is flawed, and sea battles are lousy in practice because walls and formations are irrelevant.

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:00 am

The tier list now has a history of its evolution! Fascinating!

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