Tier List (NOV 2010)

Talk about the shiny-new post-apocalyptic Advance Wars game here.
GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Tier List (NOV 2010)

Post by GipFace » Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:13 pm

LIST AS OF NOVEMBER 2010
Caulder is banned for obvious reasons. Positions indicate change from the last tier list (February 2010).

Overpowered
Isabella (no change)

Fair
Will (no change)
Lin (no change)
Brenner (+1)
Gage (-1)
Waylon (no change)
Tabitha (no change)

Underpowered
Forsythe (no change)
Penny (+1)
Tasha (-1)

Fail
Greyfield (no change)

EVOLUTION OF THE TIER LIST
I'd like to sum up the current AW4 metagame to those who aren't familiar. In order for that to happen, you'll need to know a little history of how it evolved. You can break down the AW4 metagame into five eras.

Launch-April 2008:
The "allgames" era. People played the game like AWBW. Infantry spam was the order of the day, and the preferred CO unit was the CO tank or CO infantry. Mechs were shunned, Lin was considered to be bad, Forsythe was considered to be good, and Tabitha was considered to be broken. benbever, an AWBW veteran, stated that he liked Forsythe and Tabitha the most. This era ended once I won the allgames tournament.

May 2008-November 2008:
After the allgames tournament, "Tabitank" (Tabitha CO tank) usage on random wi-fi spiked to extreme levels. We had to come up with a way against it, so we looked at mechs. Xenesis found out that a Tabitank at 0 zone cannot charge on the counter, and so massing mechs stopped the Tabitank cold. She was eventually "unbanned" from metagame play because we thought we figured her out. Other than that, infantry were still used often, and the prevailing strategy was artillery spam. Mechs were still shunned aside from countering Tabitha, and there were a lot of stalemated games at high level play.

December 2008-July 2009:
Sven thought that Will, who had been at the bottom end of the fair tier, was underrated and had potential. I set out to use mechs to the extreme and avoiding infantry use altogether. It worked. Mechs deal 65 to infantry, while infantry only deal 45 to mechs. I won every battle of attrition, and we learned not to use the COP immediately. Will went up the tier list to just behind Gage and Brenner, since artillery usage was still popular. Forsythe moved to the bottom because he couldn't keep up with any COs with a COP. For more information on the infantry findings, see the multiplayer guide.

August 2009-January 2010:
The metagame turned into complete aggression, fueled by a new Tabitha land strategy which minimized all soldier usage. CO infantry/bike fell completely out of favor due to increased usage of antiair. Artillery spam is no longer the dominant strategy. Instead, it was all about using the CO unit to maximum efficiency just to power up the COP, then using mechs as your bread and butter. All three tanks saw increased play in order to combat Tabitha and Lin, and so the unit distribution became more balanced. With mechs now being the primary offensive unit, players could now save up for a bomber after three days in a two/three property map by building mechs in consecutive days, or build two b-copters. Therefore, antiair saw increased usage. Will moved to the top of the fair tier, followed by Tabitha. Gage's standing dropped considerably.

February 2010-Current:
The tier list gets a complete overhaul due to our decision of standardizing airports. Waylon finally goes up to the fair tier, and b-copter tactics are refined enough that it becomes a core unit. This ensuing "unit triangle" of tank-antiair-copter with other units thrown in as wild cards causes total balance in strategy, although md tank and war tank play drops a bit. Tabitha drops to the bottom of fair tier once again because the Tabitank is hard countered by a b-copter. Forsythe moves to underpowered. I strongly believe that the November 2010 revision of the tier list, which only tweaked the February 2010 list by a bit, will be the final tier list in the game.
Last edited by GipFace on Sat Nov 27, 2010 9:07 pm, edited 26 times in total.

User avatar
Xenesis
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Hydrocarbon Inspector
3DS Code: 2535-4646-7163
Location: 0x020232DD

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Xenesis » Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:16 pm

*Laughs*

I'm not surprised that my favourite CO took a tier nosedive. Reminds me of the AW2 and Hawke thing at release then suddenly everyone realising that he's very average.

(Now I just expect Snake to fall 3 tiers in Brawl. :D )
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

User avatar
Terragent
Rank: Cussing Aussie
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Terragent » Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:15 pm

lol Gage. Now I have no excuse for my constant losses. :P

User avatar
Tronn_Bonne
Rank: Queen of the Servbots
Location: Kattelox Island

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:16 pm

I agree with Forsythe moving down. He has no ice breaker and that CO zone of 5 feels very weak when the other player does their COP. Right above Will is a good spot for him since Will is a tad limited in what he can do on certain maps. Gage moving up behind Brenner is an interesting change though. I will start testing out Gage now.
"I wish my PS1 wasn't dead. Talking to you makes me wanna go play Megaman Legends again." - JuggerV2
“Tronn wins an internet. Or all the Koal quotes that ever existed.. You decide.” - Guesty

User avatar
Blame Game

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Blame Game » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:30 pm

After playing about 200 random games in the past week
you're insane


on a serious note though, who regularly plays this game on a decent level nowadays?

User avatar
Dragonite
Rank: My face is beaming.
Location: the netherlands(mostly)

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Dragonite » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:49 pm

Blame Game wrote:
After playing about 200 random games in the past week
you're insane


on a serious note though, who regularly plays this game on a decent level nowadays?

gipface it seems.
And I guess random has improved by now,bad players will have gotten bored or skilled by now.

User avatar
Tronn_Bonne
Rank: Queen of the Servbots
Location: Kattelox Island

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:40 pm

Well I do play the CPU :| (I still have trouble connecting with WiFi)
"I wish my PS1 wasn't dead. Talking to you makes me wanna go play Megaman Legends again." - JuggerV2
“Tronn wins an internet. Or all the Koal quotes that ever existed.. You decide.” - Guesty

User avatar
Blame Game

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Blame Game » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:12 am

anyone from the meebo crowd though? :(

User avatar
Kireato

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Kireato » Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:26 am

Can you scale the loss of power as you go down the list?
Image
"Hey, it's the Kir. Wee." - Linkman 145
"I can't help myself sometimes... :cry:" -Help Topic Guest

User avatar
Sven

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Sven » Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:40 am

congratulations gipface on your mastery of a children's war game

perhaps you will join several other people in playing a javascript rendition of this very same children's war game on http://awbw.amarriner.com/

perhaps your next efforts will be to master a trading card game about virtual pets? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=neopets

User avatar
Sven

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Sven » Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:46 am

also i must object violently to tasha's tier placement

clearly

she is much better then waylon could ever hope to be

User avatar
Blame Game

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Blame Game » Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:09 am

oh sven with his jealousy

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:52 am

perhaps you will join several other people in playing a javascript rendition
http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=70772

master a trading card game about virtual pets?
They already get my money from cards with fluffy art!

User avatar
Sven

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Sven » Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:12 pm

Blame Game wrote:oh sven with his jealousy
as long as you're still my #1 fan

User avatar
Blame Game

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Blame Game » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:25 pm

you know it

User avatar
Blame Game

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Blame Game » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:50 pm

wait, what the hell is going on at CW eh O_o

User avatar
Sven

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Sven » Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:56 pm

:)

User avatar
Blame Game

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Blame Game » Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:54 am

asshole

also, that was a serious question because I'm still not entirely certain what exactly is going on after reading various posts lol

User avatar
Sven

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Sven » Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:34 am

everyone is going around pretending something is going to be done when we really know nothing is happening

narts went off and revealed he can program, so he's off doing his own thing and giving us small releases

uru is starting that tactical RPG maker thing

we went there for a while for CW, silifi then paid to have the old boards saved

we moved back there and what you see is what you get

it's been stuck on that constitution for a good two weeks now

User avatar
Blame Game

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Blame Game » Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:55 am

it's been stuck on that constitution for a good two weeks now
so basically everyone's scared that if we don't get the whole politics crumpets done right from the start it'll turn into CW 1.0, or what?

and what's this about you with some "AW compilation" >_>

as you might be able to tell I um actually want non-awbw online AW lol

User avatar
Tronn_Bonne
Rank: Queen of the Servbots
Location: Kattelox Island

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:47 am

*shudders*

Not CW all over again...
"I wish my PS1 wasn't dead. Talking to you makes me wanna go play Megaman Legends again." - JuggerV2
“Tronn wins an internet. Or all the Koal quotes that ever existed.. You decide.” - Guesty

User avatar
Blame Game

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Blame Game » Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:08 am

:(

User avatar
Sven

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Sven » Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:50 am

i didn't expect any working code from uru or narts to be pushed out for several months

as such i started learning a programming language and figuring out how the hell to produce a faster AWBW

as a coincidence it would have all COs from all games available

User avatar
DTaeKim
Star CO
Star CO
Rank: War Room Legend
Location: In your base, killing your d00ds

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:44 am

I haven't seen the site since summer began. Is it a cesspool?
What can change the nature of a man?

User avatar
Kireato

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Kireato » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:46 am

Nobody seems to realize there is no "everyone" left in CW.

Still, it's fun poking at it.
And I want to get it renamed Cubic Wars.
:ph43r:
Image
"Hey, it's the Kir. Wee." - Linkman 145
"I can't help myself sometimes... :cry:" -Help Topic Guest

User avatar
Tronn_Bonne
Rank: Queen of the Servbots
Location: Kattelox Island

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:21 am

DTaeKim wrote:I haven't seen the site since summer began. Is it a cesspool?
I guess...
"I wish my PS1 wasn't dead. Talking to you makes me wanna go play Megaman Legends again." - JuggerV2
“Tronn wins an internet. Or all the Koal quotes that ever existed.. You decide.” - Guesty

User avatar
Halo Capella
Rank: The Great Capitan
Location: ...in your manga!!

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Halo Capella » Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:48 am

At least there won't be any Extreme Wars anymore. ;)

User avatar
Tronn_Bonne
Rank: Queen of the Servbots
Location: Kattelox Island

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:28 am

Yay :|
"I wish my PS1 wasn't dead. Talking to you makes me wanna go play Megaman Legends again." - JuggerV2
“Tronn wins an internet. Or all the Koal quotes that ever existed.. You decide.” - Guesty

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:23 am

Okay, time to look at Penny in sandstorm. DEF = enemy CO's attack in zone, ATK = Penny's attack in zone:

vs. Tabitha
DEF: 150 / 110 = 136.4%
ATK: 110 / 180 = 61.1%

vs. Isabella/Forsythe
DEF: 90 / 110 = 81.8%
ATK: 110 / 120 = 91.7%

vs. Brenner
DEF: 80 / 110 = 72.7%
ATK: 110 / 130 = 84.6%

vs. Gage
DEF indirect/naval: 100 / 110 = 90.9%
ATK indirect/naval: 110 / 120 = 91.7%
DEF other: 80 / 110 = 72.7%
ATK : 110 / 110 = 100%

vs. Will
DEF land direct: 100 / 110 = 90.9%
DEF other: 80 / 110 = 72.7%
ATK: 110 / 110 = 100%

Penny's worst matchup is Gage and Isabella. Brenner is favorable because he will not two-shot anything, while Tabitha is an autowin because 136.4% ATK makes her superunit rather mortal. Will is also an autowin. His indirects suck and Penny will counterattack at full power. Forsythe isn't as easy as Brenner, but of course he doesn't have a COP.

User avatar
DTaeKim
Star CO
Star CO
Rank: War Room Legend
Location: In your base, killing your d00ds

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:52 am

Clearly, Sandstorm is Penny's best bet for a victory.

What do you think of the other two weather conditions?
What can change the nature of a man?

User avatar
Tronn_Bonne
Rank: Queen of the Servbots
Location: Kattelox Island

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:16 am

As I have said in another post, I would use Penny if her weather effect was always sandstorms. I think it would be hard to guage just how useful rain is. Snow never seems to make a massive difference in the games I have played unless it occurs during the capture phase.
"I wish my PS1 wasn't dead. Talking to you makes me wanna go play Megaman Legends again." - JuggerV2
“Tronn wins an internet. Or all the Koal quotes that ever existed.. You decide.” - Guesty

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:31 am

The only question at this point is whether the possibility of sandstorm outweighs the consistency of Forsythe. Forsythe > Penny would be the only obvious change to this list.

Remember that Penny without sandstorm is handicapped at 110/110 for most of the match. Let's look at non-sandstorm values:

vs. Tabitha
DEF: 180 / 110 = 163.6%
ATK: 110 / 180 = 61.1%

vs. Isabella/Forsythe
DEF: 120 / 110 = 109.1%
ATK: 110 / 120 = 91.7%

vs. Brenner
DEF: 110 / 110 = 100%
ATK: 110 / 130 = 84.6%

vs. Gage
DEF indirect/naval: 130 / 110 = 118.2%
ATK indirect/naval: 110 / 120 = 91.7%
DEF other: 100 / 110 = 100%
ATK : 110 / 110 = 100%

vs. Will
DEF land direct: 130 / 110 = 118.2%
DEF other: 110 / 110 = 100%
ATK: 110 / 110 = 100%

Against Forsythe, a 17.4% ATK disadvantage outside sandstorm turns into a 10.1% ATK advantage while in sandstorm. Hmm...

It seems as though Forsythe might be above Penny. Snow encourages indirects (but Penny has inferior artillery), and Rain can be dealt with flares.

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:29 pm

Okay, Penny has to be dropped to below Forsythe.

The main thing you'll notice about everyone above Penny is that they all have superior indirects. Lin also has superior ground indirects, but 1 zone and a useless COP keep her below Will. If she had 2 zone to start, she'd probably be above Will and Penny even without a COP.

User avatar
DTaeKim
Star CO
Star CO
Rank: War Room Legend
Location: In your base, killing your d00ds

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:06 am

Rain and Flares? Building Flares will slow down the opponent, and they're handled by Tanks when the rain ends.
What can change the nature of a man?

User avatar
Sven

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Sven » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:16 am

except for the fact that there are 200000 artillery out

the increased infantry cost mean that the cheapest non inf unit is even better

oh look it's artillery

User avatar
Tronn_Bonne
Rank: Queen of the Servbots
Location: Kattelox Island

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:08 am

Yes. It is worth pointing out that artillery cost stayed the same from DS to DoR. Fascinating...
"I wish my PS1 wasn't dead. Talking to you makes me wanna go play Megaman Legends again." - JuggerV2
“Tronn wins an internet. Or all the Koal quotes that ever existed.. You decide.” - Guesty

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:41 pm

For Kireato...

Fascinating:
Caulder

Overpowered:
Tabitha
Isabella

Fair:
Brenner
Gage
Forsythe
Penny
Will
Lin

Underpowered:
Greyfield
Waylon
Tasha

I considered putting Lin in underpowered, but her CO recon/tank/md tank is still brutal to deal with. As for Greyfield, +50% defense to gunboats still does not stop them from being destroyed in two shots. In practice, the only thing the super defense really does is buff up cruisers and b-copters.

User avatar
Tronn_Bonne
Rank: Queen of the Servbots
Location: Kattelox Island

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:07 am

Do you really think Brenner is on a similar playing field as Lin? Considering what has been said so far, it seems like there is a decent gap between Gage and Forsythe. Should Brenner and Gage be in their own tier?
"I wish my PS1 wasn't dead. Talking to you makes me wanna go play Megaman Legends again." - JuggerV2
“Tronn wins an internet. Or all the Koal quotes that ever existed.. You decide.” - Guesty

User avatar
Halo Capella
Rank: The Great Capitan
Location: ...in your manga!!

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Halo Capella » Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:11 am

or maybe there's a reason why she's on the bottom of that section. Lin isn't that situational, except the power but that's only if you want to make use of her +20/+20 ground. Although it's only a weaker version of Tabitha.

I wonder if making 3HP to 2HP healing power gives a big change.

User avatar
Tronn_Bonne
Rank: Queen of the Servbots
Location: Kattelox Island

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:35 am

I have no doubt that Lin deserves to be at the bottom of that section. What I am saying is that Brenner and Gage might be superior enough to the other picks that they belong in a tier of their own.
"I wish my PS1 wasn't dead. Talking to you makes me wanna go play Megaman Legends again." - JuggerV2
“Tronn wins an internet. Or all the Koal quotes that ever existed.. You decide.” - Guesty

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Multivac [Bot] and 0 guests