Tier List (NOV 2010)

Talk about the shiny-new post-apocalyptic Advance Wars game here.
GipFace
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:07 am

I'm thinking of scrapping the AWBW-style tier list and naming the random wi-fi tier list as the definitive one.

I played a few AWBW-style ladder matches since my last post, and while the Tabirecon is better than the Tabitank in some cases, it still requires expert hit-and-run tactics. Brenner still screws over Tabitha, so I'm confident at this point that he is better. Brenner's infantry on a city has 150 def, which means that Tabitha will only deal 90% to it. The Tabirecon is less effective when there are bikes in play, because a Tabirecon cannot OHKO a Brenner bike.

Mech access plays a large role when facing against Tabitha. If the map involves a tank rush to the center, like on Urban Rural, Tabitha's non-counter charge weakness is minimized. On more conventional maps where mechs are usable, a player is able to turtle up a line of mechs which stop any Tabitank shenanigans. Mech flooding is effective against Tabitha because bland infantry do not counter zone mechs.

Since Tabitha loses any stalemate, the best way for her to win is to use her CO unit to defend contested neutrals until they are captured, then play defensive for the rest of the game. If the enemy attacks, then that's free meter and possibly 1 zone. I don't like this playstyle that much, though.

Lin with 2 zone against Tabitha is pretty much an autowin. 55% matchups become a nightmare and will end up 6-6.

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Blame Game

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Blame Game » Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:15 pm

I'm thinking of scrapping the AWBW-style tier list and naming the random wi-fi tier list as the definitive one.
what reason is there not to?

GipFace
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:00 pm

You're right. Our random wi-fi tactics are slowly creeping into ladder matches at this point, despite the starting property difference. There's really no reason to keep the lists separate anymore. I've changed the first post.

I'm going to re-visit Will vs. Penny again. I played with Penny on a large sample of clear maps, and every time I used her COP, I didn't get sandstorm. It's just too unreliable. At least with Will you can make a mech flood viable and effectively harass with a CO recon. If Will uses his COP three times, it's probably a good bet that he will win. With Penny, you don't get that guarantee. Even if you get sandstorm, the indirect-heavy metagame still causes most of Penny's units to be 2hko'd by artillery. Consecutive sandstorms are brutal, but for a tier list, I'd rather have a guarantee than a not-so-guarantee. Therefore, the current metagame dictates that Will > Penny. I'm also putting Penny in the underpowered tier because she doesn't power up any specific ground unit.

Gheizen

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Gheizen » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:58 am

I'm starting to hate Random wi-fi. There's always some idiot who cheat. Why in the hell you should cheat in some obscure game? If you suck, just don't play and shutup, don't make other people lose their precious time.

Flying tank and invisible unit. Lol. The best part is that when you kill all their visible unit, the game freeze, because it think you won.

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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:06 pm

Poor Penny. It appears that she cannot stand on equal ground with the balanced tier but I think she is too powerful for the underpowered tier.
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Terragent
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Terragent » Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:43 am

Time to create a "Mr Bear" tier?

GipFace
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:04 am

I'm aggressively testing CO recon/tank/md tank gambit strategies on random wi-fi with Will. He's not so bad, although facing Brenner is like ramming into a brick wall. He can blitz Gage fairly well if there are many contested properties in the middle. Will's antiair can pierce any one point in the meatshield, then the rest of the shield can be double-teamed.

If Will had 130/120 direct land units, he'd be better than Forsythe. Unfortunately, a 130 DEF CO unit can be thwarted easily, especially when it has to go one on one against a Lin gambit. Gage can 2HKO a Will CO tank with 15HP zone artillery, as I painfully found out in a random wi-fi game. >_<

GipFace
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:09 am

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessa ... c=48021773

Current discussion about the middle three (Tabitha, Lin, Forsythe) is there. Note that I will not discount any theorytarding argument. (e.g. EchelonThree claims that Gage>Isabella because Gage can 2hko with Artillery/Infantry. The Meebo metagame knows this isn't the case because Gage will never be matched up against bland units except when facing Tabitha)

If you can back up your claims with plausible game situations, you will have a greater influence. Yay!

GipFace
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:27 am

Selected rebuttals from various posts in that thread:

As for Tabi, she's easily beaten due to her predictabilty
The Tabitank strategy has been metagamed out. Now we're looking into the Tabi md tank, and it's a monster. I used it in a flawless victory, seen here. The trick to using Tabitha is to not mass units (except for capturing purposes) and instead go for straight up power, because her meatshields suck. Leaving bases empty is fine if it allows for a faster second md tank. As for dealing with it, a war tank may be an effective response because it answers the Lin md tank gambit.

Lin has to fight it out like a mini Tabitha which is easier to take out.
If Lin's CO unit doesn't end up injured, either you're fighting a terrible opponent or you're not playing her correctly. Once she is injured, she is able to move one step back and respond with other units. Tabitha at <5 HP is pretty much a tempo loss. I find that Lin plays more like Will in the early game, except that she comes out on top with any additional defensive cover. She needs to play direct fire tactics in order to get 2 zone, then she can consolidate her position with superior artillery later.

EchelonThree

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by EchelonThree » Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:51 pm

GipFace wrote:http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessa ... c=48021773

Current discussion about the middle three (Tabitha, Lin, Forsythe) is there. Note that I will not discount any theorytarding argument. (e.g. EchelonThree claims that Gage>Isabella because Gage can 2hko with Artillery/Infantry. The Meebo metagame knows this isn't the case because Gage will never be matched up against bland units except when facing Tabitha)

If you can back up your claims with plausible game situations, you will have a greater influence. Yay!
Okay, finally managed to sign up here after the stupid authentication refused to work...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDOOb1_6LEU

I took a watch through the replay and I don't really see your point here, your opponent was PENNY, he made quite a few mistakes that you could capitalize on (e.g. allowing your CO medtank a free dig at his mech and leaving his units in COZ rocket range), and most importantly, he allowed you to charge up your COP.

Anyway, back to my tiering.

It's pretty much clear that we agree that Gage and Isa are the top two COs (after caulder).

If Gage indirects don't fare well against units with 110% defense, it can only get worse for Isabella.

Consider the following
- Isabella is essentially Forsythe with a far inferior zone (true, same buffs, Forsythe has 5 COZ, Isa has 2)

Conclusion - Isabella is only really powerful because of her power, if not, we'd all be playing Forsythe.


As for my damage comparison, the only real situation which I failed to account for is Brenner and LIn defense, and even then Gage still does much better, no other CO save Tabitha can have a higher defense than Brenner/Lin on ground units.

Even with a 110% defense infantry, it's enough for Gage to OHKO

vs Infantry, 0 star - Gage 117, Isa 108 (both OHKO)
vs Infantry, 1 star - Gage 106, Isa 98 (Gage confirmed OHKO, Isa unconfirmed OHKO)
vs Infantry, 2 stars (forsythe buff) - Gage 97, Isa 89 (Gage unconfirmed OHKO, Isa confirmed UNABLE to OHKO)

vs Mech, No stars - Gage 110, Isa 102 (Confirmed OHKO for both)
vs Mech, 1 star - Gage 100, Isa 92 (Confirmed for Gage)
vs Mech, 2 stars - Gage 92, Isa 84

vs Tank, 0 star - Gage 78, Isa 72
vs Tank, 1 star - Gage 70, Isa 65


Gage becomes stronger than Isa as more artillery come onto the field

So, time for my own tier list, featuring early and late game movements

Fascinating:
Caulder

Top:
Gage (late)
Isabella
Gage (early)

High:
Forsythe (early)
Brenner

Middle
Lin (late)
Tabitha (lolol medtank)
Lin (early)
Forsythe (late)
Penny
Will

Underpowered:
Greyfield
Waylon
Tasha

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tmcan8
Rank: COZ Master

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by tmcan8 » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:56 pm

Here's my take on the tiers list;

Overpowered:
Caulder
Isabella
Waylon

Fair:
Tabitha
Brenner
Gage
Penny
Lin
Will

Underpowered:
Forsythe
Greyfield
Tasha
If the whole world was normal it would be a very boring place...that's why I'm different

EchelonThree

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by EchelonThree » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:17 pm

tmcan8 wrote:Here's my take on the tiers list;

Overpowered:
Caulder
Isabella
Waylon

Fair:
Tabitha
Brenner
Gage
Penny
Lin
Will

Underpowered:
Forsythe
Greyfield
Tasha
Instafail when waylon = OP and Forsythe = UP

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Newbie » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:19 am

Man, this changing tier list reminds me of the insane changes the Starcraft metagame went through in the last year too.

Stupid ass Bisu build + Terran Mech vs Zerg argh. Although the mass hydra strategy making a resurgence is nice. Was getting bored of LING LING LING LING.

Anyway uh, right. What I came here to post.

Have there been any map making attempts which attempt to actually change the metagame? To draw from starcraft again, the addition of gases, large mineral lines and easily defensible chokes has made things such as heavy economy games in favor of protoss (which has forced Zerg players to abandon several once popular strategies), and the usage of island and semi-island maps in pro leagues produced the now well known sair/reaver strategy that would otherwise have been maligned due to the perceived uselessness of toss air on non-island maps. Purely from an amateur theoretical and speculative standpoint (free to ignore/mock/make image macros of), would maps with a different fact/city ratio, addition of wacky terrain effects (i.e. meteor thingies which can open or close chokepoints), more balanced air/land/navel maps (...probably impossible) or maps specifically designed to be played on a non-clear setting (kill me now) contribute to an understanding of the metagame or serve as a moron's way to obfuscate the game even more?

Of course, it must be remembered that when the maps happened for starcraft, many matchups were thought to have been played out, which I am not certain has happened here.
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However, when I translated it on the internet, it came out, "Oh, it's a game." Lost in translation, you know?" ~ Shadowdude

GipFace
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:19 pm

this changing tier list reminds me of the insane changes the Starcraft metagame went through in the last year too.
This is a pretty sh!tty analogy. AW4 is barely a year old. In the first year of Starcraft, it went through a ton of patches. Remember when Spawning Pools cost 150 minerals? Yeah, good times.

Have there been any map making attempts which attempt to actually change the metagame?
Not really. Actually, the IS maps have varied gameplay, surprisingly enough. You have a map like Eon Springs which is air-heavy, then you have Spanner Isle which plays entirely different. Anyway, the current AW4 community is too small. No Japanese, WWN is dead, and AWN only has a few people.

addition of wacky terrain effects
Adding wacky terrain only makes indirects more powerful.

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Newbie » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:09 pm

AW4 is barely a year old. In the first year of Starcraft, it went through a ton of patches. Remember when Spawning Pools cost 150 minerals? Yeah, good times.
To point out, if we view Nintendo Wars as a continuous series of patches to the same basic gameplay, it can be said that it has had less patches but a longer age than Starcraft. (yes, yes, practically speaking the American Nintendo wars community only took off around AW1). Also, do you have any idea how many changes starcraft's metagame has had in the last year compared to before? Especially with the addition of perfected mechanics, three matchups (ZvT, ZvP and PvT) have basically been turned on its head but whatever, we're not here to discuss Starcraft.

Also argh, 4pool being the dominant strategy.
Not really. Actually, the IS maps have varied gameplay, surprisingly enough. You have a map like Eon Springs which is air-heavy, then you have Spanner Isle which plays entirely different. Anyway, the current AW4 community is too small. No Japanese, WWN is dead, and AWN only has a few people.
Think you can grab any AWBW mapmakers to collaborate on a new map?

What's more, is that we don't necessarily have to do it for just AW4, but if there's any prospective AW5, we could have a proverbial head start on helping revitalize the metagame. Godspeed you black emperor and whatnot
Adding wacky terrain only makes indirects more powerful.
Speaking purely hypothetically (read: completely out of my ass), but wouldn't having certain terrain effects opening up new fronts actually decrease the effectiveness of indirects?
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"Well, out loud, I said, "What the ****!?"
However, when I translated it on the internet, it came out, "Oh, it's a game." Lost in translation, you know?" ~ Shadowdude

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TehMutaRuzh
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by TehMutaRuzh » Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:56 pm

Newbie wrote:Speaking purely hypothetically (read: completely out of my ass), but wouldn't having certain terrain effects opening up new fronts actually decrease the effectiveness of indirects?
Assuming you're speaking strictly about meteors, that would require the meteors to be removed first. Until then the indirects will have a nice wall to sit behind, and indirects are much better at protecting and destroying meteors than directs.

At least, that's what I'd figure.
it's not too fun to wander...

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:37 am

After about 200 random wi-fi games or so from the Meebo metagame, Will > Forsythe, and Lin > Tabitha. Sven gets his revenge!

Reasoning: Any CO power that can break an artillery stalemate is better than no CO power, unless the D2D gives a decided advantage, as is the case with Lin.

120/120 just isn't good enough because he'll usually deal equal damage to every other CO except Lin. 5 zone rarely comes into play. The advantage of 3 zone over 2 zone is that more units will charge the meter on a counterattack. Of course, Forsythe doesn't stand to gain anything this way.

Forsythe is now at the bottom of the fair tier. That doesn't mean he sucks, just that he has the least tactical potential without completely getting stat raped like the underpowered tier.

As for Lin, she can pull off the CO tank better than Tabitha, and the Meebo metagame micro has improved to the point where 3 zone is easily achievable with her. Also, many GameFAQs users agree that Tabitha is total sh!t, mainly because we invaded random wi-fi and schooled almost every regular Tabitha player.

Will vs. Tabitha is very very close, but Tabitha is still able to OHKO the majority of Will's units because of decreased DEF. Therefore, Will doesn't beat her for now, but enough games may change that.

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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:33 am

I figured that would happen.
What can change the nature of a man?

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Narts
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Narts » Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:59 am

Just as I had foreseen.

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:22 pm

Food for thought:
http://www.strangehorizons.com/2009/200 ... er-a.shtml

Using that article, we can see some things about Advance Wars:
- Mostly skill, only luck elements are Penny's COP, the 0-10 luck roll, and player position in random wi-fi
- State of game is based on Matthew effects/slippery slope
- No time investment for customization, but high time investment for skill
- Community doesn't matter because the series is not very popular

I like to quote this section in particular:
A game may swing wildly to the advantage of one team or another depending upon who died recently. And any game that makes camping, or not engaging the enemy, into the most effective strategy can produce slow matches of out-waiting the other player; if you break the stalemate, the consequences are to your disadvantage.

It's partially for this reason that most games give the advantage to the aggressor and try to make offense more beneficial than pure defense. In Risk, when large armies face off, the attacking dice have a clear advantage. If that situation were reversed and the defending dice held a larger edge, the optimal tactic would be to build up huge armies on your borders and goad the other player into striking you first. But since it's not, the game becomes about trying to effectively strike at the other player first. Most games try to encourage aggressive gameplay in a variety of ways, giving an edge to surprise attacks and first movers. The alternative is to reward players for not interacting—not pushing the game forward.


However, this is why the AW4 charging system is clearly superior to that of the old games. The aggressor has incentive to strike in order to charge the meter and obtain full zone before the other player. Defensive COPs and higher city defense only encouraged stalemates. Unforunately, artillery (and antiair vs. an air force) is the optimal tactic once there are enough of them. Artillery has such good spatial attack potential that it discourages the player into attacking them head-on. Artillery deals good damage to every other land unit. As seen by the mech spam, cheap, effective units are good if they have few weaknesses. Take away the mech's weakness to infantry, and suddenly you have a unit that's only weak to indirects, air units, and the war tank, all of which are more expensive.

GipFace
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:19 pm

The Meebo metagame is now dead. I have locked the room because I didn't want to deal with GK drama (he invaded the room every night as a guest). Also, no one was seriously playing any matches recently, and I don't see any new developments in the foreseeable horizon. Mech spam with Will was the last real unexplored strategy, so unless people like to play with custom naval maps, I can't see the tier list undergoing major changes. The only real possible change is moving Tabitha to the bottom of the fair list because she has the worst mech spam and the worst arty spam. Funny that, huh? From "ban her now" to "maybe bottom of the fair tier". Wow.

This was the last serious discussion. I cut out irrelevant parts:
Mechs > inf
16:05 GipFace Will vs Tabitha (Saber Range)
16:05 GipFace I guess I will stream
16:05 Sven I GUESS I WILL ARMCHAIR GENERAL
16:08 GipFace Haw haw haw
16:08 Sven WHY SO MANY MECHS GRR
16:08 Sven YOU ARE DESTROYING MY SENSIBILITIES
16:10 GipFace THIS IS THE NEW AW
16:10 GipFace NO MORE INF
16:10 GipFace MECH MECH MECH
16:10 Sven WHAT HAPPENS IF I BIKE BIKE BIKE BIKE
16:11 GipFace Then I can make a recon gg
16:12 GipFace See I might think that Will > Tabitha
16:12 GipFace Because Tabitha cannot do jacksh!+ against this
16:12 Sven stop destroying my sensibilities
16:12 GipFace So simple yet so effective
16:13 Sven i would like to live in a dream world
16:13 Sven where tabitha and forsythe and the beautiful theory COs are wonderful
16:13 GipFace 8/12 meter
16:14 Sven congratulations on finding DoR's next big thing i suppose
16:14 Sven this is about as shocking as when i brought out the inf spam to WWN
16:14 GipFace He knows inf can't beat it
16:15 Sven well what the **** is tabby supposed to do
16:15 Sven you can't set up an inf wall, not a good one anyway
16:15 Sven the inf are too expensive and the mechs too cheap
16:15 GipFace See that?
16:15 GipFace Bland inf 7-6 against Will mech
16:15 GipFace Then mech attacks it next day, lose
16:16 Sven what are your ideas on what tabitha can do in defence
16:18 forbs is tabi med enough to take negligible dmg from will mechs?
16:22 GipFace 25 x 1.3 / 1.8 = 18%
16:22 Sven luck damage
16:22 GipFace He can't kill my CO
16:23 GipFace it's over
16:23 Usthepeople LOL
16:23 GipFace Second COP will break him
16:27 GipFace I outnumber him 21-10
16:27 Sven :/
16:28 forbs tanks..
16:31 Sven lol
16:31 GipFace Look at that
16:31 GipFace 33 mechs and 1 inf built by end
16:31 GipFace Inf totally suck
16:32 Sven okay yes gip **** off
16:32 Sven let me hold onto my last grips of AWBW
16:34 GipFace Will and Isabella are better mech specialists than Sami
16:34 Sven NO
16:34 GipFace Because $2500 mechs are lolololol
16:34 Sven OH NO YOU DON'T
16:35 forbs sami has 50% cap boost though
16:35 forbs sami wins!
16:37 Sven i think gip sadly has it though
16:37 Sven that level of use and dominance
16:37 GipFace Anyway, if they mass arty, Will just has to mass tanks
16:37 GipFace Hopefully get enough meter for COP and bust through any arty wall
16:37 Sven sami couldn't just build only mechs
16:37 Sven even on the best of mech maps
16:38 GipFace So yeah
16:38 GipFace I think Will > Tabitha
16:38 GipFace Tabitha's only plan there was CO wartank
16:38 GipFace CO md tank could be taken down with enough mechs
16:38 Sven y not antitankz or rocketz
16:39 GipFace Tabitha doesn't counterattack meter with antitank
16:39 Sven WAIT WHAT
16:40 Sven attacker has to be in range?
16:40 GipFace Attacker has to be in your zone for counterattacks to charge meter
16:40 GipFace It's why Tabitha has fallen so low
16:40 Sven rofl
16:40 GipFace We figured we could just suicide mechs into any Tabitank
16:40 GipFace And there, Tabitank is metagamed out
16:41 GipFace If they join who cares
16:41 Sven fun i suppose
16:41 GipFace You just shut down two tanks with one or two mechs
16:41 Sven tactics were a lot simpler before lol
16:42 GipFace 7hp Tabitank can't really ohko anything in zone either, so they need 4 or 5 kills instead of 3
16:42 Sven yeah you basically are stuck to wartank or rockets no?
16:43 Sven so who is tabitha left as better than
16:43 GipFace Tabitha is the best air CO, I'd put her above Waylon
16:43 GipFace Because Tabibomber is madness
16:44 GipFace Against Forsythe I dunno
16:44 GipFace She might be worse than Forsythe
16:44 GipFace So that would put her at the bottom of fair tier
16:45 GipFace Forsythe could just mech spam vs Tabitha, 120/120 totally rapes 100/100
16:45 GipFace Wouldn't be as effective as Will so he'd need arty to mix it up
16:45 Sven is there any strat at all
16:45 Sven that can reliably get tabby to zone one
16:46 GipFace Tabitha battleship, gg
16:46 Usthepeople LOL
16:46 GipFace But sea isn't part of the metagame
16:46 GipFace Because there's only one good sea map on random
16:46 Sven you're telling me i have to spend 37500
16:47 Sven to get tabby two zone guaranteed
16:49 GipFace Defensive cop is the dumbest idea ever
16:49 GipFace It's why I schooled all the AWBWers
16:49 GipFace They thought they could sit back and beat me on the counter
16:49 Sven DURR
16:49 Sven we had only been doing it for you know
16:49 Sven five years
16:51 Sven anyway i'm not really going to say one is better than the other :/
16:51 Sven for a long time in defensive COP sh!++y COs could beat good ones
16:51 Sven even now soso ones can beat better :/
16:51 Sven doesn't seem as absolute
16:51 Sven as the tactics of DoR make it

-

It's been a good year. Here's a eulogy by Sven!

not even the almighty gipface was immune from petty crap
human after all
he calls the game basically dead a while back in the log
i thought this game was dead after allgames
Honestly what GipFace did in terms of AW4 is amazing.
like seriously i hate saying it because it always makes me look like a gushing fanboy
in the five years of the community
no one ever dominated so thoroughly
people would progress the game through tournaments
gipface did things single handedly and purely built on his own developments
respect lol
if gipface hadn't killed it WWN or AWBW would have
enjoy our community of pseudo intellectuals and anime obsessed teens
have a nice day!


-

Thanks, everyone. I'll still be around here if you actually want to play a game with me.

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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:41 am

Are we going to shift to WWN?
What can change the nature of a man?

GipFace
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:14 am

#wwn ARG-IRC? Sure, if you want.

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Narts
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Narts » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:15 am

Gipface, you are a bad player. You never even dared challenge me on my awesome naval maps. Because I have thus proven myself the best Advance Wars player in the universe, everything I say is true. Therefore, Greyfield is broken.

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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:06 am

I do believe that is a challenge.
What can change the nature of a man?

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:16 pm

Well, that's it. With 100/100 meatshields totally crumpling to 130/110 or 120/120 mechs, there's no point in having Tabitha above Will and Forsythe. She is now at the bottom of fair tier.

If Tabitha is good on ground maps, either the map itself is bad, or you just played someone who has bad defense tactics. She needs at least an md tank to operate effectively.

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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:58 am

Are you still playing Random Wi-Fi?
What can change the nature of a man?

JimmyKuddo

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by JimmyKuddo » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:45 pm

So you quit AW?

Why lock the room then.

Or is the room now only for people you trust?

Darn you GK.

Darn you to heck.

Now I got to find a new place to find AW players.


Xen

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Xen » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:34 am

WWN IRC > Meebo

Sneetch

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Sneetch » Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:20 pm

Is there any reason Brenner is in the Fair tier? He seems a bit to strong to be there. His boosts is excellent for both mech and art spam, his COP is great, his zone is huge. I see no reason why he should be in Fair. With Lin you don't have the game winning COP, Will can only boost the direct side of things, Forsythe doesn't have a good enough boost or a COP, and Tabi is nearly No CO. None of them stand much of a chance vs. Brenner, his COP charges to quickly and his boosts are to good. I don't think bumping him up to Overpowered would hurt.

bg

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by bg » Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:44 am

I think I remember sven "calling" this (will mech abuse) a while ago, albeit perhaps not altogether seriously and obviously not to such an extent.

interesting decision killing meebo, you did far far more than any one member would or should do to uphold an essentially condemned community/game though so it's hard to argue. I definitely have to agree; crazy amounts of respect to gipface for what he's done for the community, and it's only the hopeless circumstances surrounding the game itself that stopped you from pushing us to, if not "greatness," then certainly somewhere near it. spending time with other communities such as smogon has pretty much convinced me that they could all really use a gipface in some form or fashion, and it's almost a shame that your efforts were "wasted" on a game that was otherwise more or less neglected.

ok, done mirroring sven's eccentric cocksucking now.

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:33 am

Is there any reason Brenner is in the Fair tier?
Brenner's COP doesn't get better as the game progresses. If both sides have clusters of indirects, there's not much Brenner can do unless he can move his indirects to cities, which would then give him a 5HP buffer the next day and minimize first strike damage. In a Brenner mirror, this isn't possible. With Gage, you can play defensively with indirect clusters, wait until day 25 of 30, then make your push and win. Brenner is great, yes, but with or without micro, he's not overly ridiculous like Isabella or Gage. Isabella shouldn't need much of an argument for banning; she is the hellspawn of Will and Gage.

I've been studying the Lin/Tabitha tank/md tank gambit and came to these conclusions. It works if:
- Md tank can be made on days 2-4
- There is enough income to CO it immediately
- A central area of neutral properties
- No nearby neutral properties
2P-65 Bellow Islands fits these requirements like a glove. Unfortunately, no AWBW maps fit the last requirement because neutral cities are scattered everywhere. If you attempt the early gambit, the other person will have a property advantage and then use that to swarm your gambit unit. I had an embarrassing loss against Penny on random wi-fi this way. The Meebo regulars saw it. >_<

Therefore, the md tank gambit isn't a viable strategy on AWBW maps. What Tabitha needs to do in this situation is CO a bike or a recon and start harassing, then save up enough funds for an md tank around day 8 or so. Bases are left empty in order to hasten this opportunity. It worked against ALKATORN.

I'm mostly done with random wi-fi because I'm sick and tired of those maps. My last four games have been friend matches and I almost forgot how much better they were.

The mech flood game is up at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWhaR7zGiRM&fmt=18

spending time with other communities such as smogon has pretty much convinced me that they could all really use a gipface in some form or fashion
Smogon is full of narcissistic teenagers who think they're always right. It would be hard to make progress there. Hell, AWBW "tactics" somewhat slowed down AW4 progress in the early months because we still thought the game was about infantry spam and tank pushes. Even today you have people like Tyrael spewing nothing except how FTA is doom and gloom. FTA is a problem, yes, but it's a far smaller problem than the general skill level of most players. Games like Pokemon and AW are easier to theorytard because they have factors to make sweeping arguments without testing. 1 zone Lin? She was considered to be awful in theory because the other COs could outzone her. A Pokemon example? Take Parasect. Everyone hates Parasect because with Dry Skin it is 5X weak to fire and therefore it allegedly sucks. But come on, I've been seeing a bunch of "pro" teams and only one Pokemon in their team ever has Fire Punch. I know that if I studied Pokemon seriously, I could make Parasect work. Oh well, I guess it's confined to mediocrity forever. (Stealth Rock doesn't help)

I've said a number of times that the number one problem with AW4 is the lack of a timer in friend matches. That just about killed all serious play because no one wants to spend three hours on a game. Even if you try watching yourself, complex board positions will inevitably suck you into 8-10 minute turns and the like. Turns should not last more than two minutes regardless of the map. (The good part about playing random wi-fi for so long is that my friend match turns have become faster as a result.) Monopoly has house rules that mandate a 90-minute short game because they realized that 90 minutes is the sweet spot for games like these. Any longer and people get turned off in droves.

Anyway, Tabitha at the bottom of fair tier is pretty much the sign that the game is finished. She is a good symbol of popularity, actually. The game was most popular when she was considered to be broken, then it waned as she dropped, and now she's hit rock-bottom.
Last edited by GipFace on Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kireato

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Kireato » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:39 am

How many games are played in fow?
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Xen

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Xen » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:35 am

Fog shows up reasonably often in Random WiFi, but it isn't played at all in friend matches for the most part.

GipFace
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:58 pm

The current list has been stable for over a month. Not bad, although there's been a rising trend of Isabella users on random wi-fi.

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:23 am

Hypothetically, what would happen if Isabella's COP was +1 indirect range and +1 movement?
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by SJCrew » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:51 pm

All this speculation about DoR being done with is dandy and whatnot, but irrelevant to the fact that I can get a nice and fun match on random going pretty much whenever I feel the need. Though it is noticeably harder to play some good friend matches with the Meebo metagame in the toilet. I try with the new AW/other games room, but very few people show up at all, let alone ready and willing AW players.

I guess that now that the serious stuff is done with, the casuals can feel free to random it up as much as they'd like.

On another note, I will rejoice the day I meet Gip on Random and finally beat him. I put up a good fight every now and then (even as a CO'd Grayfield recon lol).
Hi, I play DoR PM me for a match.

PSN: the_sjcrew

Playing: Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3. Friend me if you want to join my lobbies and/or compete!

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:29 pm

June 1st Changes:
Will > Lin
Gage is out of the overpowered tier

Will can beat up an arty cluster with COP. Oh yes, indeed. Will > Lin because Will can beat up Gage's arty cluster with mechs, given enough patience, whereas Lin is sh!t out of luck if that happens.

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:18 am

In other news, Isabella is the undisputed best CO in the game.
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