Tier List (NOV 2010)

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GipFace
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:26 pm

By retreating, you concede territory, which in a good map, will cause loss of property. You saw it firsthand in my game against Jake.

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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:38 pm

I never thought about it before, but if you repair a CO unit, does it cost more than usual?
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Delta_Angelfire
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Delta_Angelfire » Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:57 pm

bah, jake was a pansy. He had at least three turns near the beginning where he didn't attack with the CO just cause it would get hit by ONE artillery that would do 3 damage (maybe 2). If he retreats all of 2 squares to his nearest city, you're not exactly gonna rush all your troops in in that gap where he still has other soldiers because he's still in threatening range.
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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:08 am

The guy was outnumbered the second he decided to tank spam. If you're outnumbered, you're going to have an uphill battle.

I actually would have done something like spam Recons and Infantry while using the Tabitha/Tank to snipe units.
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Guest

Post by Guest » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:44 am

"I never thought about it before, but if you repair a CO unit, does it cost more than usual?"

No.

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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:17 am

I am still interested to see a Tabitha Bike or Recon in the capture phase.
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GipFace
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:49 pm

http://doomunit.blogspot.com/2008/03/da ... sense.html

Yay, look what I found for sh!ts and giggles! Read, laugh, move on.

So yeah, where were we? Any more data to suggest Isabella over Tabitha?

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:35 am

Okay, due to the difference in playing styles over random wi-fi, there is no choice but to produce two tier lists for this game. One is based off deploy maps with three starting properties, and the other is based off random wi-fi deploy maps.

Tabitha is fair tier in random wi-fi on the grounds that the remainder of her army is bland, and that Gage rips her a new one. Brenner micro is worse with less meatshields, but he is still strong. Other changes include Forsythe over Lin on 3 prop maps, and Penny over Forsythe on random wi-fi due to weather. The first post has been updated. Discuss!
Last edited by GipFace on Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:37 am

With all due honesty, I don't care too much for random Wi-Fi.
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GipFace
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:46 am

It's still a game mode, so it deserves its own listing. 2 Gage artillery shots = Tabitha player disconnects. =/

With 3 starting property maps, the Tabitha recon/tank is very annoying because it will reach the contested cities first. Either they stay neutral, or the Tabitha player eventually gets them, providing a fund advantage. When the starting properties are turned up, harassment is limited to the md tank, since every other rush can be countered with artillery.

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Gheizen64

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Gheizen64 » Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:41 am

Gage overpowered?
What about a map with a near airport? Copter are hard counter to inf spam + artillery and if you're not an idiot, a single anti-air won't do much due to movement constraint.

Other than that i agree.
And i want to say: Isabella > Tabitha.
Her cop is TOO easy to charge, and devastating. She can play like like Gage with a better meatshield, and she has no real counter.
I'm starting to hate her. With a passion :lol:
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GipFace
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:12 am

What wi-fi map allows you to rush early with b-copters?

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Sven

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Sven » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:16 am

what awbw map allows tabitha to setup

seriously i don't see how she's supposed to rape when you can techup if she uses a low tech CO unit and arty spam if she tries an MD.

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Gheizen64

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Gheizen64 » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:48 am

GipFace wrote:What wi-fi map allows you to rush early with b-copters?


No idea, never played one, just supposed there was. For now i play only crumpets super-stall map on DoR, but oh well, it's random.

I'm with Sven. Tabitha is strong, but almost always counterable.
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RadioShadow
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by RadioShadow » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:57 am

GipFace wrote:http://doomunit.blogspot.com/2008/03/days-of-ruin-co-nonsense.html

Yay, look what I found for sh!ts and giggles! Read, laugh, move on.

So yeah, where were we? Any more data to suggest Isabella over Tabitha?


Tabitha balanced? Okay...
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Gheizen64

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Gheizen64 » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:17 pm

I never said that tabby was balanced (in fact it still rape you, especially if you're not Gage), but that Isabella has a more versately strategy, is strongly favored in almost all matchup she has and can spam her COP pretty easily.

I'm proposing this:

High Tier
- Isa
- Tabby

And Will, while not unusable like the specialist CO, is pretty crappy.
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tsrd

Post by GipFace » Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:18 pm

Tabitha doesn't have to attack on an AWBW map. You can CO recon or CO tank, rush it to the center, and camp. They move up, they get blasted, and arty comes 2-3 days too late. Day 1 two inf, day 2 1 inf, day 3 recon, day 4 CO that recon and rush it to center or fringe neutrals of the other player.

Tabitank gets beat by md tank, three mechs, or two arty. None of them are feasible when you start with only 3 props.

Oh, and Penny sure does suck when you COP four times and you get three snows. I still won, but it left a sour memory because only the fourth COP broke the stalemate. I'm putting her below Forsythe on random wi-fi.

SmellyFart is the toughest random wi-fi opponent I've faced. He handed me my first Tennis Island loss (my Brenner vs. his Forsythe) >_< Then he tried cheesing me with Tabitha on Cut-Grass Isle (I kept Brenner) and soundly lost because his 100/100 army couldn't scratch my 110/130 army. Once I built up 20 or so units I charged in and that was that. In terms of skill level, I'd place him above Kitsune and delta_angelfire and just below kookysooky. I haven't played TheMute in ages so I don't know how good he is anymore.

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Delta_Angelfire
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Delta_Angelfire » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:29 am

Hmm... isn't smellyfart that roygbp from meebo? If so, he must've gotten a lot better since I last played him.
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Sven

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Sven » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:47 pm

i think that's bs gip after seeing you do ridiculous crap with gage/bella i can't see you doing anything with a single unit in this game.

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Narts
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Narts » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:36 pm

No single unit, no matter how powerful, can defeat the superior man who uses strategy.

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Chelf » Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:39 pm

I must have gone insane. =D

And away for awhile. Again.

Anywho, from what I've seen, there has been a SLIGHT improvement for matchmaking on Random WiFi.

Not as much Will spammage.

But...from what I have played...

Some Random Wifi people will spam War Tanks. Which may be effective at first...but then you counter by building Anti-Tanks. The opponent will then panic and start attacking the A Tanks with their War Tanks, effectively destroying themselves.

Me? I use Tabitha or Gage. Sometimes Lin. Because I'm a rebel. :D

In short, I think the Random Tier list is proper for this point in time. It's a treat for me to face a Gage or Tabitha on WiFi. Although MOST can't use them properly. =D
Signature. Mmhm.

GipFace
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:34 am

Why use antitanks? Three artillery take out a war tank just as well. I would only use an antitank on the defensive if a Tabitha md tank was in range of my base, or something dire like that. Artillery is superior on the offensive.

More units is better unless you're trying to out-tempo with tanks (or bombers in Clown Island) and a CO threat unit. More units = more options = more strategy = more HP to heal with Brenner's COP >_>;

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:28 am

Tabitha is becoming worse each day. She is awful with high starting income. Brenner is better than her because with high starting income, he gets up enough shields or artillery to defend against anything Tabitha puts out except a CO battleship. A CO bomber is a pain to deal with but at least you can surround it. Changed the random wi-fi tier list.

Xen

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Xen » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:39 am

Seems more and more that IS said "Screw you AWBW, we're balancing to *our* maps".

Playing random Wifi games, I've come to appreciate Lin quite a lot. :)

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Sven

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Sven » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:45 am

seems more and more it was a stroke of dumb luck

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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:05 am

Tabitha's super unit can't make up for the fact that her army is bland. With IS income, the capture phase is shorter than usual, and that means you get more options to build units instead of "inf inf go" like on AWBW. With a literal 4 com tower advantage, you deal more damage to her bland army and take less in return. Picking Tabitha is like giving your opponent Von Bolt.

What's interesting is that Lin is better with higher income, while Tabitha is worse. Both COs prey on the capture phase, but Tabitha is most deadly with a recon or a tank. Lin likes the md tank because she can follow up with a second tank or artillery, then fall back and use the 1 zone for the artillery/tank boost. Here's the kicker... with Lin's md tank and a follow-up tank, she can bust through a triple artillery defense because the soldier meatshield won't hold. Tabitha can't because her follow-up unit is bland.

Tabitha's bland antiair cannot ohko Brenner's infantry: 105 / 1.3 = 80. In a recent game, a b-copter and artillery was holding my opponent's Tabitank back, and once he tried to capture his remaining property, I rushed in and 2hko'd a recon using the b-copter, then placed an infantry in front of it. Note that a Tabitank versus Brenner's inf on a city is 75 x 1.8 / 1.5 = 90. After realizing his Tabitank could not break past my infantry meatshield in order to target the b-copter with an antiair, he surrendered.

Lin is also pretty bad against Brenner, so I don't think she'll ever be above Tabitha.

Brenner can defeat Tabitha with mech flood, since Tabitha's infantry cannot counter Brenner's mechs: 45 / 1.3 = 34, if 4 HP, then counterattack 65 x 1.1 x .6 = 42, 6-6 outcome and luck favoring Brenner. 6 hp means the infantry loses meatshield effectiveness and will be ohko'd the next day. This will force Tabitha to mass artillery, in which case you can charge in with superior recons and your own artillery. It's cheesy and many people disconnect as a result, but that's what happens when your entire army is superior as a whole. This doesn't work against Lin because she can power up an artillery with 1 zone and charge meter if the opponent ever tries it.

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Gheizen64

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Gheizen64 » Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:54 am

Look like Isabella will be on top. She's just the most versatile and reliable co. Spamming her COP is just really stupid.
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:21 pm

Spam? You don't need to spam COPs. One or two uses is usually enough to decide the game. That's why Penny is rather low, because if you don't get sandstorm, you just played with a handicap for the entire match. (Of course, DTK defeated me in rain because my rain/fog game sucks so I could be wrong, etc.)

Tabitha CO bomber is quite ridiculous, actually. It may very well be the absolute best CO unit for her, since it forces the opponent to make fringe units such as fighters and missiles to answer it. (Duster only deals 45 / 1.8 = 25) Even if the CO bomber goes down, all the counter units can't exactly do much to your ground force, so the trade-off is even. However, 2 antiair at 120 ATK may still destroy it. (70 x 1.2 / 1.8 = 46) Even then, a 5 HP Tabitha CO bomber can still ohko bland infantry. (115 x 1.8 x .5 = 103)

She's everything that the air COs wish they could be.

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Gheizen64

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Gheizen64 » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:47 am

Once you can use her cop once you'll obtain a favorable board position, so better chance to use her cop again, and so on. I call this 1-2-boom spam.
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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:18 am

When it comes to Penny, there is no question sandstorm is the best weather. Rain would be second, as long as you have some somewhat expendable units revealing the hidden squares. Snow is the worst of the bunch, but slowing down the opponent's reinforcements on the front-lines could buy you some time.
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Tronn_Bonne
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:40 am

I've always said Penny's COP should be sandstorms 100% of the time.
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Xen

Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Xen » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:30 am

In theory, it shouldn't be very hard to hack. I'd just have to hijack the code to always return the value for Sandstorm regardless of what the RNG cooked up.

GipFace
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:12 pm

Against Forsythe/Isabella, Penny has an 8.3% ATK disadvantage and a 9.1% DEF disadvantage, as stated earlier in the thread. Sandstorm does nothing about her ATK disadvantage, but the DEF disadvantage turns into a 19.2% advantage. When you think about it, it's not that devastating. Penny usually needs three days of real battling in order to charge the meter to full, so three days worth of sandstorm is quite fair.

The problem with making sandstorm 100% is that the three days of disadvantaged battling would only apply to the first COP use. Double sandstorm is quite deadly, but that rarely happens in practice.

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Xenesis
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Xenesis » Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:08 pm

I suppose it would also be possible to make sequential COP usage follow a consistent sequence, but that would be more tricky.

Eg:

First Use: Sandstorm
Second Use: Rain
Third Use: Snow

etc. etc.
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:37 am

Should Waylon be above Greyfield on random wi-fi? There are more air maps than sea maps, and the sea maps that are actually fair have enough income so that you could theoretically make seaplanes.

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Tronn_Bonne
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:59 pm

I'd say so. I almost never see players doing maps that rely heavily on ships anyway.
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:45 am

Well, all right. The only fair sea map is Spanner Isle, anyway. Square Canal is fair only in rain, and Seven Islands is dumb because whoever gets the center wins.

Someone by the name of Ken Paul beat me in Burger Isle with fog (1P Lin [me], 2P Tabitha) because he got one extra city while forcing a Tabitank through ($6K extra income over three days lets you do that), then sat with mass rockets/antiair for the whole match. Aaaargh. It's one of those games where you shake your head, because I was clearly the better player. He suicided a Tabitank four times, even though he could have secured the victory much earlier with Tabitha rockets. Perhaps I messed up the capture phase by being too cautious. I should have diverted all funds towards the bottom instead of the top. =_=;

Terrain that impedes treads/tire movement must be used with extreme caution in DoR, because if used improperly, they make indirects too good. AWBW "wood barf" maps need to go.

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Pkdragon
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Pkdragon » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:34 am

I hate how the tier list changes constantly.

Forsythe is still top tier in my book IMO, and Isabella is bland and shouldn't be given the honor of being top tier.

Thankfully Tasha doesn't seem to have moved much.
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Xenesis
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by Xenesis » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:22 pm

Well, a tier list is representative of the metagame.

A static tier list means a static game, so it's a good thing that it keeps jumping around. :/
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GipFace
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Re: Tier Lists, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:32 pm

The AWBW style tier list has been static for a while, due to the fact that no one plays those maps anymore. I played only 6 AWN ladder matches in the past two months. I don't believe it hasn't changed from the original list in April, since the Lin > Forsythe argument was primarily based off random wi-fi anyway.

The random wi-fi tier list changes constantly due to the fact that I can always get in a few games each day and see what people are up to. Also, the list of the 75 random wi-fi maps was only compiled recently. I always give a result at least 5 tries before making a real change, so yes, I've gotten my ass kicked as Penny more than 5 times against a Forsythe.

I can dominate noobs more often with Waylon than Greyfield, and I've played my last 50 games as Waylon to figure things out. CO bomber does have its benefits, especially in sandstorm.

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