Tier List (NOV 2010)

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GipFace
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:39 pm

That's quite possible. The gap between Gage and Forsythe is significant.

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Tronn_Bonne
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:20 pm

In which case it depends on what we consider balanced. If Gage and Brenner are then they will make up the fair tier and Forsythe, Penny, Will, and Lin will be the weak/limited tier. If we decided that Gage and Brenner are perhaps too good then they can be the high tier and the rest will make up the fair tier.
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GipFace
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:10 am

Lin vs. Will vs. Penny vs. Forsythe

The thing about Lin is that she is better than the other three if she gets 2 zone, but of course she is useless on any naval map. However, Will is also useless on naval maps. Note that naval maps only represent a very small portion of the metagame.

So is 2 zone on land maps good enough to put her over all of them? I've been getting decent results by putting Lin in either a recon, a tank, or even an md tank. Discuss!

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Tronn_Bonne
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:11 am

Tough call. I'll have to start utilizing her more before I can make any strong statements. However, I assume the majority of the maps are largely land based and with FOW off. Lin definitely moves up inside of FOW since her COP is actually useful. Outside of it, she has impressive stats but her CO zone sucks and requires some effort to build up. I'm thinking Will tops her since he has a COP to fall back on. It is hard to say with Penny since her COP is so damn random but, D2D, Lin tops her. There are many situations where Lin outdoes Forsythe as well...
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GipFace
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:32 pm

No, no. Forget fog and all that. Lin effectively does not have a CO power. Her COP simply makes all her units 130/130 for the day.

I'll take 130/130 and 3 radius over 120/120 and 5 radius any day. 130/130 units absolutely crush 110/110 units. 55% matchups become 9-3 slugfests for Lin, while Penny's 55% matchups become 7-5 in her favor.

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Tronn_Bonne
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:05 am

Indeed. Lin looks pretty good once her CO Radius builds up. I've had decent success with her in my recent games as well (outside of FOW of course). I'm still iffy about Lin v Will though. Will's COP is pretty good in a lot of situations.
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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:37 am

I play Lin like Tabitha since her CO unit is a formidable 150/150, which is solid. Obviously she has a larger zone than Tabitha, so once you get her CO zone to 2, she becomes a lot more formidable. Against Will, she neutralizes his CO effect and still has her offensive bonus to compensate.

However, Will still has a COP, while Lin does not have one effectively. For me, I'm tempted to give the edge to Will simply because he has a better CO zone at the start and a usable COP.
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Tronn_Bonne
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:44 am

That is the direction I am leaning as well.
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Sven

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Sven » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:56 am

sorry gipface but the council of old men has ruled against you

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Tronn_Bonne
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:33 am

Yup. Now we are going to give the one ring to a midgit.
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“Tronn wins an internet. Or all the Koal quotes that ever existed.. You decide.” - Guesty

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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:30 pm

All two of us? I think we're missing a few.
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Tronn_Bonne
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:21 am

The others might have dropped dead from old age...
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“Tronn wins an internet. Or all the Koal quotes that ever existed.. You decide.” - Guesty

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Mark999
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Mark999 » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:55 pm

Hm, the list isn't separated into tier levels? (High, Average, and whatnot)

Well anyways, my theories:

Changes to the list in the first post in italics. My comments in parenthesis.

Broken Tier
Caulder

Top Tier
Tabitha (Hmm, can't say whether she goes in broken or high. Either way she's still between Caulder and Isabella.)
Isabella (I just wanna say...ISABELLA'S BATTLESHIPS DURING HER COP!!!)

High Tier
Brenner
Waylon (His COP defense is insane.)
Will (His COP applies to foot soldiers as well. Wow.)
Gage

Average Tier
Forsythe
Penny
Tasha (Movement boost. Even if air units only, that stills puts her over these guys.)

Low Tier
Greyfield

Bottom Tier
Lin (Sorry Lin, but you fail due to a low CO zone and a situational COP. At least Sonja had the ability to hide HP intel. Well, in multiplayer anyways.)

There we go. Oh yeah, my opinions are not fact and...blah blah blah.

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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:21 am

I disagree. Stick with Gip's list.
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Delta_Angelfire
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Delta_Angelfire » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:15 am

yeah, no offense mark999, but how much competitive AW have you played?

Edit: If you'd like, I'll play your Isabella against my Lin tomorrow :-j Hell, I'll play against your tabitha if you want!

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Blame Game

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Blame Game » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:20 am

Tasha (Movement boost. Even if air units only, that stills puts her over these guys.)
what?

GipFace
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:54 am

Waylon (His COP defense is insane.)
Air units suck because one or two antiairs stops them cold. To put it in perspective, tanks are defeated by artillery, but if the artillery is exposed, tanks can overwhelm. If tanks did not deal good damage to their primary foil, they would be one of the worst units in the game. Copters don't have the luxury of powering through antiair. Bombers do, but bombers are so expensive that you'll never have time to build one.

Anyway, I've edited the first post to reflect tier categories.

Proposing a change to the fair tier:
Brenner
Gage
Lin
Forsythe
Penny
Will

Rationale
The tier list only applies to metagame play, and is only effective if both players are playing at a high level. Since an overwhelming majority of maps are land-based (if I had to throw a number out there it'd be >95%), Lin matters.

Lin plays like Tabitha in the early game. When her CO unit gets crippled, she can retreat and boost artillery until her CO unit is repaired or joined. If her zone radius increases to 2 against Forsythe, she is better. If her zone radius increases to 3, Forsythe is pretty much beat.

Lin is powered up due to the fact that a CO md tank only has one cheaper counter: b-copter. (antitanks are defeated with 1 bike and therefore aren't good) It can withstand 1 artillery shot, which would take it to 7 HP. By charging into one artillery shot, Lin has a good chance of coming out of the skirmish with 2 zone radius. An md tank can be powered out at the 8000 income mark by avoiding infantry production for one day.

Forsythe is better than Penny or Will because he boosts artillery. Yeah, he'll be better than Lin in naval maps, but as repeated from before, naval maps are a rare part of the metagame.

Penny is better than Will because all three weather conditions screw him up, whereas with the other COs, they can fall back to artillery and flares. Will sucks because his CO unit can be 2-shot KO'd, plus he doesn't boost artillery. +MP boost doesn't seem as scary when his units have 110 defense. Brenner's COP discourages a counterattack and keeps the pressure, while Gage and Isabella simply win.

Someone please cure me of my artillery fetish!

P.S. When Sven and I played on Equal Island over random wi-fi, he suicided his Will to kill my Lin because he admitted that his CO unit didn't matter. =_=p

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Sven

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Sven » Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:12 am

will is effectively playing 110/110 artillery with the occasional 130/110 infantry

my hope for him is that we could find a way to work mechs into his game, beyond that i am forced to admit he sucks pretty hard.

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Tronn_Bonne
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:03 am

Well... I am very surprised to see Lin move up so far. I am not sure how to cure the artillery fetish... :|
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TehMutaRuzh
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by TehMutaRuzh » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:49 am

I'm even more surprised by how far down Forsythe has gone. Wasn't he top tier or whatever equivalent some time ago?
it's not too fun to wander...

Treed

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Treed » Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:29 pm

So consensus is the game is no longer fun to play?

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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:57 pm

This isn't Super Smash Bros. Melee, Treed.
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Tronn_Bonne
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:59 am

That was a good one DTK. :)
"I wish my PS1 wasn't dead. Talking to you makes me wanna go play Megaman Legends again." - JuggerV2
“Tronn wins an internet. Or all the Koal quotes that ever existed.. You decide.” - Guesty

Treed

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Treed » Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:44 pm

Oh, and I just wanted to deliver one giant I TOLD YOU SO. I knew Lin would end up higher and at least on par with Will, and I knew Forsythe was way overestimated. Hee hee hee.

GipFace
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:31 am

Wasn't Forsythe top tier or whatever equivalent some time ago?
That was before we realized that CO powers mattered. Toned down, yes, but if both sides don't have CO powers to cancel each other out, something as innocent as +3 HP is going to influence the game.

Also, most of us bought into the noob train of thought (brought over from GameFAQs) that CO powers were impossible to pull off. On Mind Trap, you could conceivably pull off the COP on day 10, then another one on day 12, especially with Brenner.

It's a mater of ease of use versus potential: Forsythe was popular at first because he was easy to use. Now that the metagame has been established, we sucked him of all his potential. Lin still has potential because she was immediately dismissed. She is definitely more difficult to play correctly, but when put into the hands of a skilled player, that player is able to exploit the +10/+10 advantage.

I'll change the tier listing for now until more data can be collected. At the moment, I do not have home internet, but I played many random wi-fi deployed games with Lin over the past week. Random wi-fi data doesn't hold a candle to real ladder match data, but what it can tell me is the potential of a CO, especially when I can defeat Tabitanks with her.

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Tronn_Bonne
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:59 am

I was always uneasy about Forsythe so I am not at all surprised to see him move down. On the flip side, I had the feeling Brenner was a good CO (arguably too good for being in the middle tier) when I started playing the game so I will be very surprised if he does end up moving down in the future.
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“Tronn wins an internet. Or all the Koal quotes that ever existed.. You decide.” - Guesty

GipFace
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:37 am

Lin sucks in AWBW-style maps that start with three properties. However, she is almost certainly a better pick than Forsythe in random wi-fi.

Here's the question... should the tier list be about random wi-fi, or high level friend code match play only?

By the way, here is the random wi-fi map list I use. Please use this list when playing random wi-fi to determine tier placement.

Auto forfeit (too handicapped, boring, or predeployed)
CLASSIC FOLDER
02 Crater Isle
03 Triangles
07 Fist Peninsula
08 Brace Range
09 River Range
10 Moon Isle
11 Mint Plateau
12 Jewel Canal
13 Wrench Island
14 Rapid Ferry
15 Bundle City
16 Scarab Road
17 Pointing River
18 Liaison Wood

2P FOLDER
15 Striped Map (boring)
20 Cog Isle (draw)
23 Wing Cape (draw)
32 Deep Defense
33 Desert Duel (draw)
49 Scenic Route
50 Pitted Map (FTA at its finest)
52 Swan Cove
54 Great Lake
55 Double Bridge
56 Grid Islands
62 Ring Mountain
66 Central Lake

Playable - 1P advantage
CLASSIC FOLDER
01 Bean Island
22 Volcano Isle

2P FOLDER
12 Equal Island
14 Mouse Island
18 Heaven Map
19 Jester Map
21 Zero Wood
25 Asphalt Maze
26 Tennis Island
28 Battle Stadium
29 Inner Wheel
31 Triple Road
35 Rainy Haven (heavy advantage)
37 Spectacle Map
40 Portal Bridge
42 Marching Map
43 Hourglass Isle
46 Square Canal
53 Seven Islands
57 Marine Bridge
58 Hat Harbor
60 Antipode Map (heavy advantage)
67 Piston Dam
68 Snowflake

Playable - 2P advantage
CLASSIC FOLDER
05 Coral Lagoon

2P FOLDER
02 Basin Forest
03 Dual River
10 Robot Isle
11 Diagonal Isle
13 Geometric Map
16 Mermaid (heavy advantage)
30 Burger Isle
36 Face Island
51 Forest Island (2P gets both bases with first turn APC but noobs never do that!)
63 Rail Strait (heavy advantage)
64 Tribe Islands (heavy advantage)
65 Bellow Islands

Playable - Virtually even?!
17 Pretzel Map
22 Butterfly Isle
24 Saber Range (props too far away for recon to FTA anything)
27 Cut-Grass Isle
39 Eon Springs
45 Barren Plains (it's a fun predeployed!)
47 Beaker River
48 Scatter Isles (probably the rarest map on random)
61 Spanner Isle
69 Clown Island

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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:46 am

I would vote for the latter, since it's too easy to beat on the general public.
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Tronn_Bonne
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:48 am

The latter provdes more consistant data.
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DTaeKim
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by DTaeKim » Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:50 am

Jesus Tronn_Bonne, I didn't expect that quick of a response.
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Tronn_Bonne
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:57 am

What can I say... I am on the ball! :wink:
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GipFace
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:46 pm

Hoooo boy. This is going to generate some talk.

I think Isabella is better than Tabitha.

Sven mentioned to me a few weeks ago about how he never understood the Tabitha ban. This was after I streamed random wi-fi matches where I routinely dealt with Tabitanks using Gage and Isabella, which was a few weeks after we realized that CO bike was the best CO unit for the metagame. (Small/medium-sized land maps)

Now that the metagame has shifted to mass artillery + mech/bike support, a Tabitank is no longer the uber menace that it once was. CO bike + artillery is cheaper than a CO tank, and has better tactical potential. However, Tabitha cannot mirror this strategy because of her 0 radius.

Attaching the CO to an indirect unit is also a no-no, since that makes her unit passive. Besides, Tabitha cannot meatshield effectively. Zone artillery can move up and benefit from better statistics. This threatens any meatshields. If Tabitha's bland units then engage the artillery, it will charge up meter for the other player. Basically, Tabitha in an indirect causes her to be in a lose-lose situation, unless she already has an artillery cluster. If she does, then zone recons/tanks can damage bland artillery enough so that the counter-volley doesn't do too much.

In every game I've played, one use of Isabella's COP is enough to win the game. How is this any different than Tabitha's COP?

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Tronn_Bonne
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:01 am

So... are you saying Tabitha is on a similar level (or even lower) than Brenner/Gage? :| Fascinating.
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Delta_Angelfire
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Delta_Angelfire » Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:36 am

My problem with the idea is that you seem to only be taking into account zone 0 tabitha (pre-negation?), which plays a heck of a lot different than zone 1 tabitha. On most of the decent IS maps, there's only a single front to battle on. This means there aren't very many options for where a Tabi CO Unit can go, making it a non issue that the CO's will be on the same front. Your CO can play defensively and offensively at the same time (and we already know tabitha is the very epitome of offense).

On multi front maps tabitha can switch to whatever front she needs to take out weaker units. If you try to follow her with your CO to protect your units, she has the advantage because you're using indirects and a (slower) bike to try to counter her, while tabi can hit and run in a Tank or MD. If you choose to go offensive against a bland line, there's nothing to stop her from wreaking havoc on any other battlelines you have, meaning she hits zone 1 without a problem.

Even Assuming you can take full advantage of your CO against a bland defensive line and fully charge - After you use your COPower, are you in such a godly position that you won't break from Tabi activating her COPower in the next day or two (Since zone 1 tabi can do whatever the hell she pleases)? The double whammy meteor and unit boost I think will make up for any advantage you managed to pull off against her, especially if she's even a slightly decent player. Also note that this isn't accounting for the fact that perhaps the Tabi player played so defensively on other fronts that she gave you a territory advantage rather than let you charge your COPower. If she gets hers off first, I don't see any way for there to be a comeback, even with a (short lived) funding advantage.

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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:26 pm

On multi-front maps, I would simply divert all my units to a single front and push through. The remainder of Tabitha's units are 100/100, so why should I care about the other fronts? I'll win one front and secure all the properties. There are too few maps that actually require two balanced fronts. The only IS map that requires this is 2P-30 Burger Isle. 2P-68 Snowflake has 3 fronts, but it's fairly simple to switch between them and throw off an unsuspecting player.

We realized that Penny is at the low end of the fair tier simply because her D2D is poor. Besides the superunit, Tabitha has even worse D2D. Surely that has to lower her value.

So anyway, what can Tabitha do to fight an artillery cluster backed up by 4 recons?

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Sven

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Sven » Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:02 pm

hope she reaches zone 1 by the time that gets setup lol

GipFace
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by GipFace » Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:14 am

The Tabitank goes in, destroys an infantry. +2 to meter. Now she's going to get shot by an artillery/mech/b-copter (tanks cause the player to lose more $), thus removing her ohko potential. She will need to join in order to maintain tempo. If that happens, then you've just taken a full health tank out of the battle for one day, allowing you to add one more artillery to the cluster. If she goes back to repair instead, then she loses territory.

An advanced strategy I employ against Tabitha is to line my front with units have poor counterattack against tanks: artillery, recons, and infantry. This prevents a second tank from coming in, damaging a unit, and take counterattack to 8 or 9 HP. If that ever happens, then the Tabitank is able to join with that unit. By leaving any reinforcements at full HP, the Tabitank is unable to join!

Lin is somewhat immune to all this due to her zone. Since she has radius 1, her CO unit destroys a unit, then a second unit comes in and takes advantage of the zone boost.

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Sven

Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Sven » Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:31 am

why not just co recon

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Tronn_Bonne
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:09 am

Or Tabibiker?
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Delta_Angelfire
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Re: Tier List, Take Three

Post by Delta_Angelfire » Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:51 am

Tabi takes a shot, retreats to a city to heal, then hits the other flank where you only have one arty there too (if any). Rinse, Repeat, Zone 1, GG

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