Third Strike

The forum for CCOs in our new dark wargame.
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DieselPheonix

Third Strike

Post by DieselPheonix » Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:16 pm

Reine
D2D: none, all allied HP is hidden, the enemy must pay 100% unit price to deploy their CO
ZONE: 2; 110/110 no rank, 115/110 rank 1, 120/110 rank 2, 130/130 vet
COP: "Rafale" deals 1 damage to enemy units, enemy receives no terrain bonus for 3 turns

Fidalgo
D2D: none, zone reverses rank bonuses (allied only)
ZONE: 2; 110/110 no rank, 130/130 rank 1, 120/110 rank 2, 115/110 vet
COP: "Heritage" allows allied units to attack and defend as if they had 10 HP

Emir
D2D: 2 star defense, allied units may be deleted after acting and return 60% current value
ALSO: each rank over "no rank" a unit has at deletion returns 30% additional funds
ZONE: 2; 110/130 (60%) no rank, 115/130 (90%) rank 1, 120/130 (120%) rank 2, 130/150 (150%) vet
COP: "Invisible Hand" raises enemy costs by 25% for 4 turns (not stackable)

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Guesty

Post by Guesty » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:47 am

Warning: I'm far from an expert on this. If someone more experienced contradicts me, follow the more experienced person, most likely. Also, I haven't played the game yet. <_<

I'm not sure if Reine's ability to make the enemy pay 100% unit price is overpowered. I like his mass damage, but I'm not sure if losing terrain bonuses for 3 turns is overdoing it.

Fidalgo is weird, and I THINK I understand what you mean by reversing rank bonuses, but it'll take some time for people to calculate how strong their units are. Heritage is really cool, though. Not sure how powerful it is.

I like Emir's ability. I'm not sure if 150% for vet is too powerful, but I like the idea.

Invisible Hand seems kind of hard to balance, and I'm not sure if another ability would be more thematic.

Again, I haven't played the game yet, and I'm not an expert. >_>
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Dragonite
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Location: the netherlands(mostly)

Post by Dragonite » Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:32 am

Reine and emir have D2D,s snuck in.
Penny is an EXECTION...

And only because she would be useless without her full d2d..

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DieselPheonix

Post by DieselPheonix » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:01 am

Yes and I suppose you want to see more seaplane specialists or situational ideas like that right? But you've a point, the first CCOs are easy, really just rehashes of old AW COs, now things are gonna get a little weird.

Reine's D2D makes up for the fact that her zone does nothing other than standard bonuses and fills up the COP bar. ??HP is an annoyance at best as people become familiar with the damage chart, and the damage readout can always be checked for an estimate. The x2 CO deploy cost is really her only ability. Presuming bikes and tanks are the most popular CO units, you'd pay 5000 and 14000 vs. 3750 and 10500, so you may not be able to deploy your CO so early or be stuck in an infantry, unless you want to use extra funds and possibly stifle your opening. Rafale's MD is useful but Deep Strike may be better at actually killing things.

Yes Fidalgo is weird, I don't have anything on him other than his zone essentially gives 2 star offense/defense to rank 1 units. I'm not sure how effective that can be at a 2 zone. The COP can actually hurt your rank 2 and vet units but considering what it does that's a minor complaint.

Emir's ability to delete units after acting is trivial. Even with Ember I don't find myself using it in practice, mainly because you need all the units you can get so why delete them? especially a coveted VET unit? The prospect of a bomber flying up to a fighter your opponent just built, destroying the infantry next to it, reaching vet rank, and then getting deleted for 30k funds is amusing but won't happen often at all. The COP is the main focus, which may be difficult without a 3 zone. It was going to be +100% costs 1 turn but then you can always not buy anything and tech up next turn; over 4 turns you're gonna need to buy something, or make repairs, or deploy your CO.

It looks like zone and D2D interaction are what govern a CO's strength now

0 zone: your D2D should be awesome, but maybe not Tabithawesome
1 zone: your D2D should be strong because COPs are few, think Lin, not Tasha
2 zone: better chance at COP so D2D should be moderate but useful
3 zone: great chance at COP so D2D should be minimal
4 zone: you might not be allowed a COP, but slightly better boost than 5
5 zone: this is so awesome that you're only alloted a bare minimum D2D
6+ zone: yeah, no

allowing a CO to grant universal bonuses as in previous games can be much better than any zone bonus, so the concern is warranted, but I hope you're not thinking hidden HP and being able to delete units for spare change are gonna win your games by themselves.

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Guesty

Post by Guesty » Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:38 am

DieselPheonix wrote:Yes and I suppose you want to see more seaplane specialists or situational ideas like that right?
I'm not sure where I implied this. Unless you're talking to dragonite?

I'm not really sure what to say.
DieselPheonix wrote:allowing a CO to grant universal bonuses as in previous games can be much better than any zone bonus, so the concern is warranted, but I hope you're not thinking hidden HP and being able to delete units for spare change are gonna win your games by themselves.
I understand your points, especially about the whole unit deletion thing.

Of course, if you weren't talking to me, you can just ignore this. Again, I'm definitely a newbie, so keep that in mind. I hope your CO making goes well, as those are really cool ideas IMO.

Oh, and your point about zones are wonderful for when I'll make my COs. can I copy it into a word document for my own personal reference? (I'll credit you)
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DieselPheonix

Post by DieselPheonix » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:14 pm

I was more rambling to myself based on dragonite's claim than anything else.

The point on the zone structure is just my observation. Since I can't play against other (good) people I'm limited to AI and local battles and whatever you guys come up with; namely I don't know exactly how fast and easy it is to obtain COPs with the different zones against a solid player, don't think anyone does just yet.

So don't quote me.

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Blame Game

Post by Blame Game » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:47 pm

Reine
D2D: none, all allied HP is hidden, the enemy must pay 100% unit price to deploy their CO
ZONE: 2; 110/110 no rank, 115/110 rank 1, 120/110 rank 2, 130/130 vet
COP: "Rafale" deals 1 damage to enemy units, enemy receives no terrain bonus for 3 turns
Why is the hidden HP there? <_< It seems to be an excuse to give a CO a day-to-day like Penny; in both cases the ability is more or less useless, but at least Penny's COP makes her day-to-day somewhat relevant. This CO is kind of a Sonja rehash and Sonja was kind of crazy >_>

warning, the paragraph below is filled with a bunch of probably meaningless theorycrafting

Overall, I don't like this CO since he can really limit your opponent's options based solely on the map he's playing on. If bikes are the best option for a CO unit, then the day-to-day is next to meaningless. Once you get to tanks, or copters, or dusters though, things start to get ridiculous. I'm not entirely sure what the implications of forcing your opponent to forgo a duster for a bike as a CO unit could be on a map that favors dusters, but I'm guessing it can be utterly devestating on some maps. Something like this was kind of staple in AWDS when you had COs like Javier and Max running around telling half of the opponent's options to stfu, but none of the COs in DoR seem to do this; basically, I'm just not comfortable with the idea of a CO that forces your opponent to change his entire strategy, before the match even begins, to one that would normally be considered vastly inferior. The only CO who really seems to do that in DoR is Tabitha, and she's practically banned nowadays. And really, this CO seems really similar to Tabitha in that respect.

The COP also annoys me because of mass damage, which I'm not sure has a place in a game where the longest-lasting COP effect is 3 day varying weather. All of the abilities of this CO as a whole are very mismatched, once again kind of like Sonja but on the verge of being comparable to Rachel >_>

Fidalgo
D2D: none, zone reverses rank bonuses (allied only)
ZONE: 2; 110/110 no rank, 130/130 rank 1, 120/110 rank 2, 115/110 vet
COP: "Heritage" allows allied units to attack and defend as if they had 10 HP
Again, this CO kind of changes fundamental aspects of the game now >_> The CO zone is arbitrary and basically amounts to a generic atk/def bonus, so I'll just stick with Forsythe. Also, how is the COP not just a crappy Brenner? >_> In fact this entire CO seems vaguely like a crappy Brenner, but that's just me.

Emir
D2D: 2 star defense, allied units may be deleted after acting and return 60% current value
ALSO: each rank over "no rank" a unit has at deletion returns 30% additional funds
ZONE: 2; 110/130 (60%) no rank, 115/130 (90%) rank 1, 120/130 (120%) rank 2, 130/150 (150%) vet
COP: "Invisible Hand" raises enemy costs by 25% for 4 turns (not stackable)
Day-to-day seems useful but weird, you brought up a bomber but I was thinking copters, I mean if my opponent builds an anti air or a duster or something it's pretty hilarious being able to take a random potshot, then deleting my unit for funds, leaving my opponent with some semi-worthless units.

I don't know what to say about the COP. There's no way I would be able to judge the balance of any 4-turn COP this early on, especially one that works against my opponent's funds. In fact, the balance of this entire CO is utterly ridiculous, I thought the age of COs that would absolutely need playtesting to judge balance was left at CW, where we had exhausted all of the good CO ideas like six times already >_>



As a whole, I don't really like the idea of a day-to-day in DoR unless you have a really good reason for it, and none of these COs have a good reason for their essentially useless and/or bizarre day-to-days. <_< You seem to like bringing in AWDS concepts like MD, day-to-days, and "hey man, stop building X units/using X strategy... or lose :D" and incorporating them into DoR CCOs, and at the very least I think we're a long way away from needing to do that since there's so much to establish with the new system as it is.

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DieselPheonix

Post by DieselPheonix » Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:10 pm

Like assorted unit buffs?

But yes, it may be too soon to bend the rules

especially if we don't have any <_<

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Blame Game

Post by Blame Game » Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:49 pm

Like assorted unit buffs?
Well I dunno lol

I'm sure there's plenty of stuff, I fail at CO making >_>

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Dragonite
Rank: My face is beaming.
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Post by Dragonite » Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:12 am

The only rule is the your ideas must fit in the normal balance set by the offical CO,s.
But we don,t have a yardstick CO yet.
The most accepted CO is brenner,but it,s sort of arguable at this point.

Your mistake is that all those CO's are far stronger that the offical CO's....

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