A hack series of CCOs

The forum for CCOs in our new dark wargame.
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Airnike
Rank: unstable

A hack series of CCOs

Post by Airnike » Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:24 am

I hacked DoR to get a ROM with these COs (I couldn't change the name or anything, just the COs' abilities.)
The previous series was given for you to wait for these and make my own idea of balance.

(Will replacement) Guy: Normal Boost
CO Zone: 2 (Affects all units)
Effects: Offense and defense+*
CO Power: POWER UPGRADE: Offense and defense +**

(Brenner replacement) Matt: City Power
CO Zone: 3 (Affects ground units)
Effects: Defense+* Healing:1
CO Power: REVIVE BOOST: Heals his units by 3HP. All units get the defense boost from his CO Zone.

(Lin replacement) Hitomi: Third Eye
CO Zone: 3 (Affects all units)
Effects: Offense+*, Vision +1
CO Power: PIERCING GAZE: Vision +2, Range+1, piercing vision, offense +*

(Isabella replacement) Ooze: Liquid Defense
CO Zone: 1 (Affects all units)
Effects: Defense+*******
CO Power: WAVY WALL: Defense+***, Offense+*****

(Tasha replacement) #14 (True Wax): Square Roots
CO Zone: 3 (Affects ground direct units and planes (except seplanes))
Effects: Offense+** Defense+***
CO Power: SQUARE DOUBLE: Movement +1 and defense+** for ground direct units and planes (except seaplanes)

(Gage replacement) #41: [)|5T4/V(3 5TR||(3
CO Zone: 3 (Affects indirect units)
Effects: Offense and defense +**
CO Power: 6R0()/V|) Z3R0: Indirect range +1

(Forsythe replacement) M.A.X.: Maximum Power
CO Zone: 3 (Affects all units)
Effects: Offense+** Defense +****
No CO Power

(Waylon replacement) Ayumu: Foresight Blandness
CO Zone: 3 (Affects all units)
Effects: No.
CO Power: DREAMWALK: +2 movement for all units

(Greyfield replacement) Xav
CO Zone: 3 (Affects air and sea units)
Effects: Offense+***
CO Power: EXTRA ROUNDS: Supplies all units. All units get the offense boost from the CO Zone and get +1 movement.

(Penny replacement) Maku
All of his units are unaffected by weather effects.
CO Zone: 2 (Affects all units)
Effects: Offense and defense +*
CO Power: NONAGRAM: A random weather is set for 3 days. Offense and defense+**

(Tabitha replacement) Julia
CO Zone: 1 (Affects all units)
Effects: Offense+* Defense+**
CO Power: MISSILE STRIKE: 8HP missile

(Caulder replacement) Wax
CO Zone: 3 (Affects all units)
Effects: Att+* Def+*** Heal:2
No CO Power

I could actually use these ones in a ROM but I need some balance help. And maybe tierlists like in the other series please.
Try to understand the \^/0R|)5 in #41's description.
If you wish bios to make the thing more real, feel free to ask.
MysteriousLad be like:
Oh hello, I am MysteriousLad.
Do you know when I was an OP player? When I wasn't in WWN and massclaims were legit good? Yea I miss the days I could force town to claim, rout out the mafia, and win the game for free day 3. Sometimes without being killed!
Senpai HPD notices me everyday when I'm town, do no scum play, and still get lynched day 1.
Anyway, it's time to go and ask people to claim and go lynch those who don't with my high-skill OP role.
I am MysteriousLad.

User avatar
deemo

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by deemo » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:47 pm

Ooze, #14, #41, MAX, and Julia are all horribly broken. Wax might be too, but I'm not entirely sure. It probably is, though.

User avatar
Satel

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by Satel » Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:57 pm

I gotta say that they're not so obviously broken, since the twelve here are the only COs playable in your version, if I'm correct.
Ooze is still broken, anyway, Distance Strike is painful, and so is (True Wax).
Joey wrote:i think i was mad at certain players and wanted to wave st3rn's success in their face at the most opportune moment, or something

st3rn fudge st3rn

User avatar
monkymeet
Rank: Bitch
3DS Code: 3480-3067-3928

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by monkymeet » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:53 pm

also under COP the CO Zone extends over the whole map anyway
imageshack swallowed up my sig. This is a placeholder.

User avatar
Airnike
Rank: unstable

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by Airnike » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:54 pm

deemo wrote:Ooze, #14, #41, MAX, and Julia are all horribly broken. Wax might be too, but I'm not entirely sure. It probably is, though.
Well, I only crushed Guy playing Ooze on a wannabe-Spann-Island, so... I wasn't aware of it I thought it was FTA.
I think they need some nerf.
Wax is broken => HE (not it) is broken. Wax is my username on most forums I subscribed in.
St3rn wrote:I gotta say that they're not so obviously broken, since the twelve here are the only COs playable in your version, if I'm correct.
Ooze is still broken, anyway, Distance Strike is painful, and so is (True Wax).
You're correct, they are the only ones around, replacing the normal COs.
monkymeet wrote:also under COP the CO Zone extends over the whole map anyway
Heck, I know already.

(Will replacement) Guy: Normal Boost
CO Zone: 2 (Affects all units)
Effects: Offense and defense+*
CO Power: POWER UPGRADE: Offense+**** and defense +*

(Brenner replacement) Matt: City Power
CO Zone: 3 (Affects ground units)
Effects: Defense+* Healing:1
CO Power: REVIVE BOOST: Heals his units by 3HP. All units get the defense boost from his CO Zone.

(Lin replacement) Hitomi: Third Eye
CO Zone: 3 (Affects all units)
Effects: Offense+*, Vision +1
CO Power: PIERCING GAZE: Vision +2, Range+1, piercing vision, offense +*

(Isabella replacement) Ooze: Liquid Defense
CO Zone: 1 (Affects all units)
Effects: Defense+****
CO Power: WAVY WALL: Defense+********

(Tasha replacement) #14 (True Wax): Square Roots
CO Zone: 3 (Affects ground non-soldier direct units and planes (except seplanes))
Effects: Offense+* Defense+*
CO Power: SQUARE DOUBLE: Movement +1 and defense +** for ground non-soldier direct units and planes (except seaplanes)

(Gage replacement) #41: [)|5T4/V(3 5TR||<3
CO Zone: 3 (Affects indirect units)
Effects: Offense and defense +*
CO Power: 6R0()/V|) Z3R0: Offense and defense +* and range +1 for indirect units

(Forsythe replacement) M.A.X.: Maximum Power
CO Zone: 3 (Affects all units)
Effects: Offense+** Defense +**
No CO Power

(Waylon replacement) Ayumu: Foresight Blandness
CO Zone: 3 (Affects all units)
Effects: Offense +*
CO Power: DREAMWALK: +2 movement for all units

(Greyfield replacement) Xav
CO Zone: 3 (Affects copters,seaplanes, soldiers, ground indirects and sea units)
Effects: Offense+* Defense+*
CO Power: EXTRA ROUNDS: Supplies all units. All units get the boost from the CO Zone and get +1 movement.

(Penny replacement) Maku
All of his units are unaffected by weather effects.
CO Zone: 2 (Affects all units)
Effects: Offense and defense +*
CO Power: NONAGRAM: A random weather is set for 3 days. Offense and defense+*

(Tabitha replacement) Julia
CO Zone: 1 (Affects all units)
Effects: Defense+**
CO Power: MISSILE STRIKE: 8HP missile

(Caulder replacement) Wax
CO Zone: 3 (Affects all units)
Effects: Att+** Heal:2
No CO Power
Last edited by Airnike on Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:10 am, edited 11 times in total.
MysteriousLad be like:
Oh hello, I am MysteriousLad.
Do you know when I was an OP player? When I wasn't in WWN and massclaims were legit good? Yea I miss the days I could force town to claim, rout out the mafia, and win the game for free day 3. Sometimes without being killed!
Senpai HPD notices me everyday when I'm town, do no scum play, and still get lynched day 1.
Anyway, it's time to go and ask people to claim and go lynch those who don't with my high-skill OP role.
I am MysteriousLad.

User avatar
deemo

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by deemo » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:20 am

The problem was that most of the COs had extremely high stats. Hell, I think Ooze is STILL broken. Why? 160/190 units under COP is downright amazing in this game, even if you consider balancing it against only the COs you have hacked in (since they're the only playable ones, obviously). Either that, or they got their COP too easily, and the COP was much too powerful to allow spammage.

Like I said, I still feel Ooze is too powerful. Remove either the defense boost or the offensive boost during the COP. It's just too powerful as it is right now, and it would be extremely easy to get the COP with such high defense. Julia and MAX are questionable. Julia has the problem of simply being a pseudo Tabitha. While she cannot use her zone to great extent, the COP is a tide-turner. I guess you could leave her as-is right now. MAX is another problem. 130/140 units is still nothing to sneeze at, basically Forsythe on roids. Especially since he has 3 zone. No playtesting for me, obviously, but I feel like he could plow through most of the cast just because of his stat advantage.

User avatar
Airnike
Rank: unstable

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by Airnike » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:22 am

Let me tell what I want for those COs, and especially how I want to distinguish them from their "model".
Of course, I begin with the obvious, not debatted-broken ones.

Guy: Supposed to be a classical guy with higher offense and defense than the others. A common guy.
He does not need to be distinguished from Will more than he already is...

Matt: Supposed to be the only healing basic CO. He's supposed to be different from Brenner only by the fact he can heal units. I restricted the bonus to ground units so he isn't obviously broken.

Hitomi: Supposed to be a vision-based CO or something like it.
I wanted her closer to Sonja than Lin, that's why she has a quick CO Power and offense.

Ayumu: Supposed to be the movement-based CO of the cast.
Why I put him over Waylon doesn't help the section as they're completely different.

Maku: Supposed to be a heavier Penny.
The distinction is Maku sacrifices the CO Zone for more powerful units. What Penny lacks, and why I think she's a low-tier.

Then we have the debatted ones:

Ooze: Supposed to be like an Oozium from DS. Slow but with terrible defense, needing many units to win against.
I took Isa as the basis only for the "level" of the CO Power, supposed to be slower.

#14 / True Wax: Supposed to fare well with the units I like most and get good boosts from a 3-zone. I could put indirects off.
Why I put him over Tasha? Don't ask. I can't answer in any way.

Xav: Supposed to be a counterpart of #14. Opposite in the units they affect, equal in CO Zone and bonus. (If I get indirects off #14's CO Zone, I add them to his. He needs it.)
I put him over Greyfield because most units I don't like (copters, sea units) need supplies.

M.A.X.: Supposed to be the COPower-less musclebag.
I wanted to have Forsythe with a shorter CO Zone and higher stats.

Julia: I wanted a CO who can get the freakin missile without have it being called a noobtrap. What Tabi's Firestorm is.

Wax: Short of inspiration, I wanted an exclusively defensive non-broken Caulder.

I am tired of copypasing, so I'll just edit the previous message in blue.
MysteriousLad be like:
Oh hello, I am MysteriousLad.
Do you know when I was an OP player? When I wasn't in WWN and massclaims were legit good? Yea I miss the days I could force town to claim, rout out the mafia, and win the game for free day 3. Sometimes without being killed!
Senpai HPD notices me everyday when I'm town, do no scum play, and still get lynched day 1.
Anyway, it's time to go and ask people to claim and go lynch those who don't with my high-skill OP role.
I am MysteriousLad.

User avatar
deemo

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by deemo » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:18 am

Alright, I can deal with that.
Just as a clarification though, are the COPs power effects additive? Like, does Ooze's defense become 260 after COP? Or 210? If it is additive, then I fear Ooze might be a bit too powerful. But like I said, that matter is not obviously broken and would require testing. Other than that, good job of balancing.

User avatar
Airnike
Rank: unstable

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by Airnike » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:41 pm

Yes, the effects are additive.

Ooze's defense, Guy's stats, Maku's, and Hitomi's offense, all are additive.

I changed Wax's bonus to offense, because defense+heal was too Matt-likey.
MysteriousLad be like:
Oh hello, I am MysteriousLad.
Do you know when I was an OP player? When I wasn't in WWN and massclaims were legit good? Yea I miss the days I could force town to claim, rout out the mafia, and win the game for free day 3. Sometimes without being killed!
Senpai HPD notices me everyday when I'm town, do no scum play, and still get lynched day 1.
Anyway, it's time to go and ask people to claim and go lynch those who don't with my high-skill OP role.
I am MysteriousLad.

User avatar
Airnike
Rank: unstable

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by Airnike » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:16 am

After a little playtest time, I concluded the following.

- Julia is way underpowered (crushed by #14 on Four Corners even with FTA)
- Ayumu too. (beaten by Maku on a low-mid-size map even with FTA)
- Julia is underpowered even facing Ayumu. (lost on a small map even with FTA)

So, I'll buff Julia and Ayumu.

I nerfed #14 and Xav, being too powerful with:
#14: Tankspam + high tier units = win
Xav: Mechspam + 1 arty + copters eventually = win

Buffed #41's CO Power, not effective enough to be used.

Nerfed Maku's COP, way too powerful.
Last edited by Airnike on Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
MysteriousLad be like:
Oh hello, I am MysteriousLad.
Do you know when I was an OP player? When I wasn't in WWN and massclaims were legit good? Yea I miss the days I could force town to claim, rout out the mafia, and win the game for free day 3. Sometimes without being killed!
Senpai HPD notices me everyday when I'm town, do no scum play, and still get lynched day 1.
Anyway, it's time to go and ask people to claim and go lynch those who don't with my high-skill OP role.
I am MysteriousLad.

User avatar
deemo

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by deemo » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:21 am

how exactly do you determine if a CO is underpowered? Play against the AI? yourself? AI vs AI?

User avatar
monkymeet
Rank: Bitch
3DS Code: 3480-3067-3928

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by monkymeet » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:37 pm

Ainiku wrote:
monkymeet wrote:also under COP the CO Zone extends over the whole map anyway
Heck, I know already.
Ah, misread that COP.

But really, honest question, are you considering the metagame? Gipface would probably be best to ask for advice, as he's pretty much singlehandedly determine the current tiers. Ayamu allows for crazy mech spam with movement boosts, especially with that huge CO Zone. I personally found the draw of DoR was the powers and D2D were much more subtle, but clearly that's not what you're aiming for
imageshack swallowed up my sig. This is a placeholder.

User avatar
Airnike
Rank: unstable

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by Airnike » Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:38 am

deemo wrote:how exactly do you determine if a CO is underpowered? Play against the AI? yourself? AI vs AI?
I play against myself with Guy as P2 (or sometimes Wax).
And for some COs against AI opponents (as Xav for example).
monkymeet wrote:But really, honest question, are you considering the metagame? Gipface would probably be best to ask for advice, as he's pretty much singlehandedly determine the current tiers. Ayamu allows for crazy mech spam with movement boosts, especially with that huge CO Zone. I personally found the draw of DoR was the powers and D2D were much more subtle, but clearly that's not what you're aiming for.
1- The metagame isn't the same because the "normal" DoR COs are not playable (my COs are "written" over them).
2- Well, for the tier list, Gipface could come here if he wants to, but whatever, I'll ask him if I think I need.
3- It's Ayumu, not Ayamu. And I don't clearly understand what you want to say the bolded sentence.
MysteriousLad be like:
Oh hello, I am MysteriousLad.
Do you know when I was an OP player? When I wasn't in WWN and massclaims were legit good? Yea I miss the days I could force town to claim, rout out the mafia, and win the game for free day 3. Sometimes without being killed!
Senpai HPD notices me everyday when I'm town, do no scum play, and still get lynched day 1.
Anyway, it's time to go and ask people to claim and go lynch those who don't with my high-skill OP role.
I am MysteriousLad.

User avatar
deemo

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by deemo » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:54 pm

Playing against yourself or the AI are very bad methods of testing balance. Of course, I understand you can't exactly do PvP, but it still remains in that it's bad.

User avatar
Airnike
Rank: unstable

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by Airnike » Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:29 am

You think AI vs. AI is a better method of balancing?

Actually the AI sometimes completely forgets about using CO Units (Xav for example)...
MysteriousLad be like:
Oh hello, I am MysteriousLad.
Do you know when I was an OP player? When I wasn't in WWN and massclaims were legit good? Yea I miss the days I could force town to claim, rout out the mafia, and win the game for free day 3. Sometimes without being killed!
Senpai HPD notices me everyday when I'm town, do no scum play, and still get lynched day 1.
Anyway, it's time to go and ask people to claim and go lynch those who don't with my high-skill OP role.
I am MysteriousLad.

User avatar
Satel

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by Satel » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:15 am

Try to play against me. It would be way better.
(Note to everyone else: I'm his bro).
Joey wrote:i think i was mad at certain players and wanted to wave st3rn's success in their face at the most opportune moment, or something

st3rn fudge st3rn

User avatar
Airnike
Rank: unstable

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by Airnike » Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:50 am

We are not really skilled players.
And by the way, the stats are already the "final ones", I did my job of balance and it's almost entirely finished.
I'm currently having more problems with the units. (I'm giving to rigs an ability to fire, to carriers a solid attack, and some stupid stuff like this.)
MysteriousLad be like:
Oh hello, I am MysteriousLad.
Do you know when I was an OP player? When I wasn't in WWN and massclaims were legit good? Yea I miss the days I could force town to claim, rout out the mafia, and win the game for free day 3. Sometimes without being killed!
Senpai HPD notices me everyday when I'm town, do no scum play, and still get lynched day 1.
Anyway, it's time to go and ask people to claim and go lynch those who don't with my high-skill OP role.
I am MysteriousLad.

User avatar
DTaeKim
Star CO
Star CO
Rank: War Room Legend
Location: In your base, killing your d00ds

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by DTaeKim » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:45 am

Ainiku wrote:
deemo wrote:1- The metagame isn't the same because the "normal" DoR COs are not playable (my COs are "written" over them).
No. The system dictates the metagame, not the COs. The COs who benefit from the metagame are the reason why they're considered better than the others.
What can change the nature of a man?

User avatar
Airnike
Rank: unstable

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by Airnike » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:11 pm

Well, those words are 7 months old, I got a better grip on what "metagame" means now.
Though I could not write a definition.
MysteriousLad be like:
Oh hello, I am MysteriousLad.
Do you know when I was an OP player? When I wasn't in WWN and massclaims were legit good? Yea I miss the days I could force town to claim, rout out the mafia, and win the game for free day 3. Sometimes without being killed!
Senpai HPD notices me everyday when I'm town, do no scum play, and still get lynched day 1.
Anyway, it's time to go and ask people to claim and go lynch those who don't with my high-skill OP role.
I am MysteriousLad.

User avatar
eliascpsells
Rank: Trent Steel
Location: In a Zerg egg, morphing into an Ultralisk

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by eliascpsells » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:31 am

What's the metagame?
Image
Professor Frink: "Pi is exactly 3!!!!"

Audience: "*Gasp!!*"
Frink: "I'm sorry it had to come to that."

Go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEIwzueG5UI for the funniest Advance Wars parody.

"Have you ever watched yourself die? It is FASCINATING!"

User avatar
Satel

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by Satel » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:18 am

The metagame is... well, it's difficult to write a definition. It's just about getting the hang of what units matter, and what matchups are the most common, like the 55% (tank/tank, inf/inf, mech/mech, most dogfights), which is the most common. It tells you what matchups you shouldn't affect too much.
Joey wrote:i think i was mad at certain players and wanted to wave st3rn's success in their face at the most opportune moment, or something

st3rn fudge st3rn

User avatar
DTaeKim
Star CO
Star CO
Rank: War Room Legend
Location: In your base, killing your d00ds

Re: A hack series of CCOs

Post by DTaeKim » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:22 am

No, that isn't the metagame.

Honestly, GipFace is probably best suited to explain the metagame, cause I'm still dated. AFAIK, it's aggressive CO unit use combined with direct units.
What can change the nature of a man?

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