Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

This is the media board. Discuss movies, games, music, books and any other media here.

Moderator: Terragent

WHAT DO YOU RATE THE SONG.

10/10
1
10%
9/10
1
10%
8/10
2
20%
7/10
1
10%
6/10
1
10%
5/10
1
10%
4/10
0
No votes
3/10
1
10%
2/10
2
20%
1/10
0
No votes
0/10
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 10

User avatar
Sven

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by Sven » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:51 pm

Joey wrote:I will be an all-powerful but benevolent dictator, is how I should have said it. At a point very soon suggestions will likely fuel things.
But if that's not possible and it's just going to be popcorn music no one will give a crumpets about in <5 years time, then yeah please stop.
It's actually completely hilarious that anyone would say this about Kendrick Lamar.
If that and the other responses you're getting don't convince you this topic series is wasting your time on WWN, nothing will. Popcorn music indeed.

User avatar
Joey

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by Joey » Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:09 am

Okay, I'm just going to back up for a second here.
Please do go on because I hadn't heard Lamar's name since like 2009.
You probably didn't hear Kendrick Lamar's name until 2012, when his major label debut good kid, m.A.A.d. city dropped.
Kendrick Lamar sounds more like one of those names that will make songs frequently, scores a hit every now and then but no one gives a damn and therefore have little overall influence, like Bruno Mars, Katie Perrie and Taylor Swift.
Okay, hold up. I'm going to stop you there, because Kendrick Lamar is not a hits artist. He's not! His only real "hit" is when Taylor Swift had him do a rap verse on "Bad Blood," and that's an anomaly. Kendrick Lamar gets by on critical acclaim, with both good kid, m.A.A.d. city and To Pimp A Butterfly dominating year end critics' lists in their respective years (although Frank Ocean's Channel Orange actually did get more acclaim in 2012).
I would not be surprised if Kendrick Lamar also ends up in this category - a few years in which they are famous, but no one truly cares about them once they quit or whatever.
Jay Z has been famous for twenty years. Kanye West has been famous for twelve. Drake has already been famous seven years. And once they quit, or whatever? Do you have any idea how prominent artists fade away? Hrm....
There are older examples as well, Tina Turner especially. Fairly unnoticeable but we know her name and she scored a few hits in the 80s, but everybody forgot about her in the 90s and now no one cares anymore.
But this is really the most baffling part of your post, man. How did your mind go right to the worst possible example.



This is a hit from 1960. NINETEEN SIXTY. Tina Turner, with her husband Ike as a writer, was a performer throughout the sixties and seventies. Perhaps you're familiar with this.



This is commonly called one of the greatest songs of all time. Rolling Stone called it the number 33 song of all time, ahead of "Bridge Over Troubled Water," "Gimme Shelter," and "Waterloo Sunset." This is from 1966, and it is one of the reasons Phil Spector is considered one of the greatest producers of all time.

But maybe you're more familiar with this performance, a Creedence cover that's eclipsed the original in popularity because of Tina's performing chops. This is from 1971.



That? Yeah, you've probably heard that.

Her 1984 album Private Dancer also produced hits, notably "What's Love Got To Do With It?" This was after she'd split from Ike Turner because he was a physically abusive fudge. It was one of the most acclaimed albums of the year, and put a crown on her career and showed that she was her own independent woman.

Do you know why we didn't hear much from her after that? Because her career had gone on for twenty four years at that point, although actually her career kept going after that and her next album produced eight goddamned singles.

You have picked the worst example possible and have no idea how much influence Tina Turner actually had.

I don't think you know how much influence Bruno Mars, Taylor Swift, Katy Perry, or Queen have had. You definitely don't know anything about Queen's effect on music. I'd be willing to put a lot of money on that.

And I don't think you know why people care about Kendrick Lamar.
"Unakau has nicked off. And there was much rejoicing."
Image

User avatar
Narts

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by Narts » Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:22 am

I don't know why people care about this nevaherd Lamar dude either, but I do know Tina Turner. That's saying something

User avatar
Joey

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by Joey » Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:50 am

More than anything I'm just awestruck that someone would sum up Tina Turner's enormous career with a narrative like that. That's incredible.
"Unakau has nicked off. And there was much rejoicing."
Image

User avatar
Narts

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by Narts » Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:11 am

Well I mostly associate her with the 80's too. Then again she's not important to me in any way so I'm not surprised there's more to her than what I knew

User avatar
Xenesis
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Hydrocarbon Inspector
3DS Code: 2535-4646-7163
Location: 0x020232DD

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by Xenesis » Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:33 am

I think it's also that you're treating WWN as a monolithic bloc when it comes to music.

The UK, European and Australian music scenes have always been very, very different to the USA scene.

I mean, I am a complete nub when it comes to music and I know that things that you get sick of in Europe because they're played don't even register here.
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

User avatar
scraggypunk
Rank: legendary cartographer
Location: deoxy knight

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by scraggypunk » Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:00 pm

just because you haven't heard of someone doesn't mean nobody has
wisdom
"the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread" - anatole france

User avatar
Joey

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by Joey » Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:09 pm

Look, I'm not being monolithic. Someone made an assertion about a person.
"Unakau has nicked off. And there was much rejoicing."
Image

User avatar
Xenesis
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Hydrocarbon Inspector
3DS Code: 2535-4646-7163
Location: 0x020232DD

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by Xenesis » Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:15 pm

scraggypunk wrote:just because you haven't heard of someone doesn't mean nobody has
Actually it's pretty likely most people have heard of musicians I haven't.
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

ThunderWalker
Rank: Elf
Location: Netherlands

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by ThunderWalker » Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:26 pm

Joey wrote:Okay, I'm just going to back up for a second here.
Please do go on because I hadn't heard Lamar's name since like 2009.
You probably didn't hear Kendrick Lamar's name until 2012, when his major label debut good kid, m.A.A.d. city dropped.
Kendrick Lamar sounds more like one of those names that will make songs frequently, scores a hit every now and then but no one gives a damn and therefore have little overall influence, like Bruno Mars, Katie Perrie and Taylor Swift.
Okay, hold up. I'm going to stop you there, because Kendrick Lamar is not a hits artist. He's not! His only real "hit" is when Taylor Swift had him do a rap verse on "Bad Blood," and that's an anomaly. Kendrick Lamar gets by on critical acclaim, with both good kid, m.A.A.d. city and To Pimp A Butterfly dominating year end critics' lists in their respective years (although Frank Ocean's Channel Orange actually did get more acclaim in 2012).
I would not be surprised if Kendrick Lamar also ends up in this category - a few years in which they are famous, but no one truly cares about them once they quit or whatever.
Jay Z has been famous for twenty years. Kanye West has been famous for twelve. Drake has already been famous seven years. And once they quit, or whatever? Do you have any idea how prominent artists fade away? Hrm....
There are older examples as well, Tina Turner especially. Fairly unnoticeable but we know her name and she scored a few hits in the 80s, but everybody forgot about her in the 90s and now no one cares anymore.
But this is really the most baffling part of your post, man. How did your mind go right to the worst possible example.



This is a hit from 1960. NINETEEN SIXTY. Tina Turner, with her husband Ike as a writer, was a performer throughout the sixties and seventies. Perhaps you're familiar with this.



This is commonly called one of the greatest songs of all time. Rolling Stone called it the number 33 song of all time, ahead of "Bridge Over Troubled Water," "Gimme Shelter," and "Waterloo Sunset." This is from 1966, and it is one of the reasons Phil Spector is considered one of the greatest producers of all time.

But maybe you're more familiar with this performance, a Creedence cover that's eclipsed the original in popularity because of Tina's performing chops. This is from 1971.



That? Yeah, you've probably heard that.

Her 1984 album Private Dancer also produced hits, notably "What's Love Got To Do With It?" This was after she'd split from Ike Turner because he was a physically abusive fudge. It was one of the most acclaimed albums of the year, and put a crown on her career and showed that she was her own independent woman.

Do you know why we didn't hear much from her after that? Because her career had gone on for twenty four years at that point, although actually her career kept going after that and her next album produced eight goddamned singles.

You have picked the worst example possible and have no idea how much influence Tina Turner actually had.

I don't think you know how much influence Bruno Mars, Taylor Swift, Katy Perry, or Queen have had. You definitely don't know anything about Queen's effect on music. I'd be willing to put a lot of money on that.

And I don't think you know why people care about Kendrick Lamar.
Technically, you are right, but only from an American point of view. From an European point of view, not so much... lol

But how often do you hear these songs from Tina Turner nowadays (I knew she had a few older hits though)?
I really only know Simply The Best and Private Dancer, from the 80s, and there's that one other song from her they rarely play on the radio too (and I'm listening to seven different stations, most of them playing classic hits, so that is pretty telling). Sure she made plenty of hits (which is why I chose her as an example!), but we don't know any (except the two I've mentioned) now time has passed, especially the younger generation I belong to. She has basically faded away over time, and while her influence is felt, it is also overshadowed by contemporary artists of her era
It may take decades, but one cannot deny that she has pretty much faded away after she retired, at least outside of the USA (maybe more of her hits are played in the USA?)
You are however right that I worded it wrong; only a few hits we still know nowadays, not a few hits in total. I shouldn't get into arguments when I'm tired, leads to stupid (writing) mistakes like that.

A funny, but probably not entirely correct comparison would be Los del Rios.
They made songs for some fifty-odd years, scored a solid number of hits in South America in that time, but elsewhere, nobody knows them. Except for one hit. The Macarena!
I'm pretty sure they had influence in their native country and probably even a lot, but in the rest of the world? Meh, doubt it. But the Macarena has been big enough to leave a mark and is still played everywhere, at least in the summer.
Another similar (to Los del Rios) example would be Psy, who is only really known because of Gangnam Style but has been scoring hits in South Korea frequently in the past few decades. A lot of local influence on pop culture, but worldwide, not so much.
Tina Turner is in the same boat as them, tons of hits in the States but it was not until the 80s that she broke through in Europe.

Also, it is a bit hard to say how much influence Bruno Mars or Taylor Swift (and any contemporary artists, for that matter) because we simply don't have the time support our arguments. Queen has that major influence that lasted through literally decades.
Can we say that Taylor Swift had the same influence had as Queen when it is 2040 or something? The argument is ridiculous because it simply isn't 2040 yet, but we can also say that there are very few artists and bands that have the same influence as Queen, through all eras.
For now, however, I think Taylor Swift will be similar to Tina Turner when that time has come. Plenty of hits, but only a few will remain played once time has passed. She will have her influence, like all famous people, musicians or not, do, and her influence will be bigger overall than that from most others, but she will also have a few names that absolutely overshadow her.
However, one of the reasons this argument is a bit ridiculous is the (obvious) notion that Taylor Swift can pull off something truly amazing on her next album, putting her on a much higher level, casting this entire argument out of the window.
Another reason why this argument is flawed is because we simply don't know what kind of music the people living in that era will appreciate.

You mentioned Kanye West and stuff into your post, and yeah they make hits and yeah they influence the rap scene (especially in the USA), but whatever else do they influence? In Europe, very few actually care about Kanye West - and that includes the rappers. He'll be forgotten before long here. He scores a hit, it is played for a few months, and then it disappears and is rarely, if ever, played again. As Xen said, the music scene in the USA is very different from that of the rest of the world. You can't even compare it, yet you try in all those posts to do so.

And yeah, Queen's influence on music has been pretty massive which is why I mentioned them in the first place (though why I mentioned them in that sentence construction is a wondering even me as I phrased that pretty badly - it came out as if I wanted you to only post truly influental stuff, but that would be pretty boring - these things are generally played on plenty of radio stations, and that throws the point of Rate the Song out of the window). Queen had a big influence not only in the genre they performed but even outside of that, said influence lasted for decades, was pretty much felt across the entire world and they are remembered for a lot of songs that they made throughout their entire career (and not just a few or just a single phase of their career).
My sig is a void.

User avatar
HPD
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Mentat
Location: The Mountain

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by HPD » Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:55 pm

I can't entirely agree with you on that, TW. Case in point:

Dutch top 2000 (2015 edition):
Image
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

ThunderWalker
Rank: Elf
Location: Netherlands

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by ThunderWalker » Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:42 pm

Thanks for correcting me in the sense that Tina Turner actually had some hits here before the 80s, I didn't know that. I knew she had hits before the 80s but thought they were mostly in the States.

Tonight was the 3rd song. Forgot about Cose Della Vita, most discjockeys have the (awful) tendency to only announce Eros Ramazzotti.

I literally never heard the Proud Mary from Ike & Tina Turner before today, though the original from Creedence Clearwater Revival is played semi-frequently on one of the stations I listen to.

River Deep, Mountain High, as well as Nutbush City Limits, I both never heard before today as well, despite listening to a few radio stations that really don't mind playing stuff from the 60s and 70s.

Also, you came up with a Top-2000, the one from Radio 2 (which is the most well-known, as it is the oldest list, but Veronica, Q-Music and other stations have their own lists, compiled by an entirely different audience), which raises another question: Are they only played in the top 2000 or even outside of that?
There are plenty of other cases in point; Enya's Only Time for example also scores pretty well on these end-of-year lists, but it only occassionally passes on Skyradio outside of that... on the other stations, I can't even remember when it was last played unless someone requested it (outside of those lists, obviously)

If a song is only played in such an end-of-year list and never played otherwise, I believe it is a sign of fading away.
My sig is a void.

User avatar
Pkdragon
Rank: very chuuni

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by Pkdragon » Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:46 am

ive never heard of tina turner until now
HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

User avatar
Joey

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by Joey » Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:34 am

^I'm sure you're aware of her ROLLING ON A RIVER dynamo performance in some sense, though

also "A funny, but probably not entirely correct comparison would be Los del Rios."

i mean yeah this is basically incorrect because kendrick isn't most famous for his "bad blood" feature.

like again talking about kendrick like he's an industry-powered thing is just not gonna get you to arrive at a correct analogy.

definitely not gonna happen with Chance the Rapper or this song. both of Chance's albums have been self-released for free
"Unakau has nicked off. And there was much rejoicing."
Image

User avatar
HPD
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Mentat
Location: The Mountain

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by HPD » Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:01 am

ThunderWalker wrote:Thanks for correcting me in the sense that Tina Turner actually had some hits here before the 80s, I didn't know that. I knew she had hits before the 80s but thought they were mostly in the States.

Tonight was the 3rd song. Forgot about Cose Della Vita, most discjockeys have the (awful) tendency to only announce Eros Ramazzotti.

I literally never heard the Proud Mary from Ike & Tina Turner before today, though the original from Creedence Clearwater Revival is played semi-frequently on one of the stations I listen to.

River Deep, Mountain High, as well as Nutbush City Limits, I both never heard before today as well, despite listening to a few radio stations that really don't mind playing stuff from the 60s and 70s.

Also, you came up with a Top-2000, the one from Radio 2 (which is the most well-known, as it is the oldest list, but Veronica, Q-Music and other stations have their own lists, compiled by an entirely different audience), which raises another question: Are they only played in the top 2000 or even outside of that?
There are plenty of other cases in point; Enya's Only Time for example also scores pretty well on these end-of-year lists, but it only occassionally passes on Skyradio outside of that... on the other stations, I can't even remember when it was last played unless someone requested it (outside of those lists, obviously)

If a song is only played in such an end-of-year list and never played otherwise, I believe it is a sign of fading away.
Radio airplay <> song popularity

And this list is compiled from 4.5 million voters (in 2015). That's an amount no other station can match by a long shot. That goes well beyond 'just the people who listen to the station' and can be seen as representative for the most popular songs in the Netherlands overall.

Honestly, what's at fault here is your own ignorance and not this list.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

User avatar
Pkdragon
Rank: very chuuni

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by Pkdragon » Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:17 am

Joey wrote:^I'm sure you're aware of her ROLLING ON A RIVER dynamo performance in some sense, though
nah, never heard of it- but i have tons of blind spots in my music history and if my classic rock radio station doesn't play it i've probably missed it, especially with artists that don't have a funky memorable band name to intrigue me into looking them up. there's a lot of classic rock artists i am just now discovering.

that's part of why i actually really do like these topics
HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

User avatar
Dragonite
Rank: My face is beaming.
Location: the netherlands(mostly)

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by Dragonite » Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:20 am

I wonder if her position is stable compared to previous years. But you can hardly blame music for the powerful effect of shifting generations for decreasing popularity if there's a drop, that just happens. The original argument was relative popularity of certain music in Europe compared to the USA. I think there's at the very least a difference between the continents regarding many of Joey's recent picks.

ThunderWalker
Rank: Elf
Location: Netherlands

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by ThunderWalker » Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:56 am

Wow, that many votes - thought it was like a hundred times less if not even more. Can't really believe that more than a quarter of the Dutch population actually voted on that list - that is a lot (and indeed can be safely called representative). I stand corrected.

But still, listening 30+ hours weekly to the radio (and various stations) and still not having ever heard these songs in a decade is a tell-tale sign. Funnily - Radio 2 has been amongst these stations for two years, though it no longer is - the discjockeys got on my nerves. Radio 8 replaced it, which plays similar music but not quite the same.

The biggest reason why I'm wondering about representativeness is actually not that Song X is in the list; it are fluctuations. The Q-Music list is a terrible doozy (hilarious though if you don't take it too seriously), and I admit immidiately I do not really know much about the Veronica list because I didn't listen to it often enough, nor checked the data (it wasn't in clear sight on their site).

I admit I was at fault in that Tina Turner didn't have any hits in Europe prior to the 1980s (clearly proven wrong), but one can really not blame me if I say that her popularity of these songs has faded with their current airplay in mind. However, the songs have not been forgotten completely either (proving their placements in the Radio 2 list).

Also, more crucial to shooting down my argument would probably be the answer on the following question: is there any artist who specificially mentions Tina Turner specificially if it comes to his (or her) influence on the music (s)he produces? I couldn't find any immidiate obvious examples but that does not mean there are none, as I didn't search that extensively - don't really feel like it when I'm tired.
If multiple examples (throughout the past few decades) can be given, my entire argument is obviously immidiately shot down.

Otherwise, there is also the rather awkward pointe that Joey might have meant that Tina Turner was influental on pop culture, but simultaneously not so much with her music, in which case most of the debate boiled down from a misunderstanding (and the lack of knowledge on my behalf from Tina Turner's earlier hits (though I knew she was a musician before the 80s, I just thought she didn't score any big world-wide hits back then)). Big oops.

Being influental on pop culture and on the music that future artists are going to make is a different thing, and in the post that started the debate I meant the latter and not the former.
My sig is a void.

User avatar
Joey

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by Joey » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:11 am

"more than a quarter of the Dutch population actually voted on that list"

whoa what the fudge

that's fudge awesome

also tina turner was hugely influential in music and, just, yeah. i don't know how else to put it man. i'm gonna give you one link but i could barrage you with em

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/lists ... r-20101202
"Unakau has nicked off. And there was much rejoicing."
Image

User avatar
Joey

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by Joey » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:12 am

her vocal stylings and performances hugely influenced the entire sixties wave of rock and roll (whose influence is also everywhere), particularly the rolling stones
"Unakau has nicked off. And there was much rejoicing."
Image

User avatar
Dragonite
Rank: My face is beaming.
Location: the netherlands(mostly)

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by Dragonite » Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:16 am

Yeah, things get truly ''national'' here very quickly compared to the USA.. The top 2000 goes on for a few days and is a favorite with my mother and several aunts. People grow up with it.

This might be a good time to mention again that the Pokemon Theme(gotta catch them all) got voted in at place 1666 in spite of the large voter base and the Radio hosts being highly skeptical of the movement at first. :D

ThunderWalker
Rank: Elf
Location: Netherlands

Re: Rate the Song #4: Donnie Trumpet & The Social Experiment's "Sunday Candy"

Post by ThunderWalker » Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:01 pm

Joey wrote: also tina turner was hugely influential in music and, just, yeah. i don't know how else to put it man. i'm gonna give you one link but i could barrage you with em

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/lists ... r-20101202
Thanks! Had searched around a bit already but when you do not know where you have to look it's becoming a time-consuming and rather frustrating effort. I've also listened to more Tina Turner songs over the past few days and it's much easier to see why she was actually influental. Her songs in the 80s didn't truly stand out to me at all compared to anything else of the era which is why I mentioned her, but yeah, I stand corrected.

I still wonder why the heck I never heard any of those songs [Tina Turner's work in the sixties and seventies] before, but that's not something for you to concern yourself with anyway.

@Dragon: You mention a huuge fail right there lol. The Pocket Monster theme? Sounds like an university joke.
Funny though.

I think it's more fun to mess up the Q-Music list though, it has way less voters so it is much easier to turn into a joke.
My sig is a void.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Multivac [Bot] and 0 guests