Survey

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DieselPheonix

Survey

Post by DieselPheonix » Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:51 am

1) Would you be interested in a tournament?
2) Would you be interested in a tournament with prize money?
3) Would you be interested in a tournament with prize money of $15?
4) Would you be interested in a tournament with prize money of $25?
5) Would you be interested in a tournament with prize money of $50?

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Xenesis
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Re: Survey

Post by Xenesis » Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:36 am

I'll move this to DIDAH so more people will see it.

(AW-Related guys)
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thefalman
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Re: Survey

Post by thefalman » Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:15 pm

I assume we're talking DoR?
And where is the prize money coming from - is the plan that the participants each put in x amount of dollars to make up the pot?

If so then we may as well just cut out the middleman and all give Gip $5 lol.
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DieselPheonix

Re: Survey

Post by DieselPheonix » Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:22 am

We're not talking DoR.

All I want to know at this point is how many players would be interested in a new AW tournament and how many dollars I should set aside.

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Guesty

Re: Survey

Post by Guesty » Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:36 am

I might be interested, depending on how this is set up. Of course, I'm not very good at all, especially since I haven't played in forever, but hey.
:)

I don't have all characters unlocked in any game which is a problem (however, if you're using ROMs, then I guess someone can give me a save with all characters, please?).

I think we can trust everyone on WWN not to cheat on CW, though.
Last edited by Guesty on Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Sven

Re: Survey

Post by Sven » Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:10 am

How are you going to manage this?

AWBW is so utterly overanalyzed to death I don't even think there's a point to playing it.
DoR is giving GipFace free money.*
Custom Wars is going to have cheating if using server architecture. Would have to be post your moves.
AW would be fresh. SSS is out, again post your moves with an arbitrator.
AW2 would be nostalgic, perhaps a bit similar to AWBW. See above.
I don't know how good DS emulation is. No idea how the turns would go.

*Unless the pot was somehow large enough to motivate someone else to learn the game.

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thefalman
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Re: Survey

Post by thefalman » Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:58 am

I'd be happy to play in a non-DoR tournament, prize pot or no.
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It took me a solid three minutes to fully comprehend your hair, Fallers. - Deoxy
Yes fal, you've got a good sense of style, you're clean shaven, and the cat on your head dares not move itself.
You look awesome. - Shift Breaker

I swear, you two are the worst couple ever. You've somehow managed to PDA on the internet through text. - Xenesis

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Imano Ob
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Re: Survey

Post by Imano Ob » Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:01 pm

I guess I'd play anything so long as I don't have to pay. Just for the heck of it.
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DieselPheonix

Re: Survey

Post by DieselPheonix » Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:49 pm

Anything but DoR, huh?

Nothing's set in stone, I'm asking if there's any interest because I'm not dropping time and money for something that won't happen, and I'm not 100% sure I can, to be honest.

These are the parameters I'd like to use:
-1st place finish takes the prize
-single or double elimination, depends on the size of the player base
-single CO, pick one and stick with him or her throughout the entire tournament
-spotlight on a CW build, most probably AHC

If anyone wants an AWBW tournament, go here. 1 and 2 have issues and they're not all that far from AWBW settings. DS has its own problems and it's still not that far from AWBW. The popular conception of a DoR scenario everyone's already familiar with, but it's not just that; when it comes down to it, DoR doesn't have much more depth to it than AWBW. Zone mechs basically beat everything.

Whenever I see a tournament try to take off, it's always small in scale, slow on the go, stalls, flops, or has a tangible incentive of some sort. I'd hate to organize a gigantic tournament as my first, but I wouldn't mind putting up a small incentive, and the game itself hasn't been played competitively before so it's a little bit of a fresh start, something new, but not too new. In any case, I'm not about to complain nothing's happening if I'm doing nothing.

The source for the tournament build, which is the same in every other way to the latest normal one, won't be available, for obvious reasons, but I've no doubt it wouldn't take a supercomputer crack it or the server. However, if you're going to cheat just to get $25 I'd have to wonder what's wrong with you, and I'd still have the final call if there's any doubt to whether your finish is legit or not.

So, documenting your moves would be encouraged. If you're really paranoid or professional, annotate them as well. If you think the other guy is cheating, alert me and be as specific as possible to what the problem is. If you don't document your turns, however, I can't help you and I'm not likely to help you. Also, don't waste my time; if you're making accusations because you're a sore loser trying to make the other guy take the fall, you're out of the tournament and any future ones as well, same penalty for cheating, and the pots aren't getting smaller. Best thing is to not even think about cheating.

But I know you guys would never cheat, probably.

Anyway, yes, a couple things would have to happen for me to do this. Other than the above, the only other thing I know is that it won't be earlier than December. I'd like it to be a nice tournament, you know, not just hurt feelings and an ice cream/cool shades/nice hat/whatever you do with the prize.

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Xenesis
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Re: Survey

Post by Xenesis » Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:51 pm

DoR doesn't have much more depth to it than AWBW. Zone mechs basically beat everything.
Eh, I take objection to this. It's the best competitive game out of all 4, despite mechs being good.
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

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Narts

Re: Survey

Post by Narts » Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:59 pm

An AHC tournament is an interesting idea. I'm not sure if it's a GOOD idea, what with the game being largely untested, riddled with bugs, and probably having out of whack balance too. On the other hand, getting people to play would be the only way to solve any and all of these problems, so...

The cheating problem is diminished by the fact that the game is fully deterministic, complete knowledge and all the rules are known so any instance of cheating would, in theory, be at least detectable. No making guesses at whether someone screwed with the RNG or if they just had a streak of luck. BTW making a special tournament build wouldn't help much against cheating. Anyone could just make a build with the same version tag but with modified sources and the server wouldn't notice.

The biggest advantage over DoR, aside from the game being fresh, would be that it's played in correspondence. Although I personally vastly prefer real-time in any serious play the fact remains that the logistics of getting people from different time zones to play a 2-hour game in a single session tends to make organising tournaments a nightmare.

I would advice against having a prize pot of any size. It would just make things too SRSBSNS, even if it's just a small sum. I would think we should get a reasonable amount of interested people even without having to wave dollars at their noses. I don't care if the participation level suffers, I don't think AHC is ready for a large public anyhow. It would be nice to get a few people who care to test and give their feedback about the game however.

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Re: Survey

Post by Bog » Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:19 pm

I'm interested as long as it's not AWBW or SSS. I cba with those. Does anyone even play with SSS anymore?

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HPD
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Re: Survey

Post by HPD » Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:13 am

I can probably arrange ya a WWN T-shirt for first prize instead <_<

I still have those designs somewhere that Wuffy made...

That aside, non-DoR is kinda favourable for me, since I don't have WiFi (yet).
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Linkman
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Re: Survey

Post by Linkman » Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:38 am

HPD wrote:I can probably arrange ya a WWN T-shirt for first prize instead <_<.
I love how that'd make us the only AW site with publicity. That one guy in Melbourne wearing one of our T-shirts.
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Sven

Re: Survey

Post by Sven » Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:34 pm

excuse me for being rather code dumb, but is there still that .txt file that holds the damn damage chart in the latest versions of custom wars?

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Narts

Re: Survey

Post by Narts » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:13 am

Ad Hoc Commander has an ingame feature that shows the damage chart and Crap Wars comes with some kind of text file documenting all the features and holding the damage chart. Standard Custom Wars hasn't been updated since early 2008 when the project was abandoned so the wiki is probably up do date with that one.

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Sven

Re: Survey

Post by Sven » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:07 am

just mentioning it because you know that fudge with the game is just a number edit away

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Narts

Re: Survey

Post by Narts » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:28 am

I dunno but who cares. Editing the source isn't any harder.

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DieselPheonix

Re: Survey

Post by DieselPheonix » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:10 pm

Well, I guess I'll hold onto my money for now.

Is it a nice shirt?

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HPD
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Re: Survey

Post by HPD » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:55 am

ImageImageImageImage

Either one of the four. Don't know which one you find most attractive. More t-shirt designs are always welcome.


Also, I'm not sure if hosting such a tournament with money involved is entirely legal. I'd like to avoid any issues on that matter. Maybe someone can enlighten me on this?
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Sven

Re: Survey

Post by Sven » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:15 am

it almost certainly is illegal, profiting off nintendo or some nonsense

a smash tournament of mine got busted like that >_>

then again i don't really think that's a big deal considering the massive violation of copyright you have with ROMs, AWBW, and Custom Wars in the first place so lol on legality.

i'll most likely be able to match the money dp throws down for this as a pot, if we can get a particularly decent way to set this up.

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DieselPheonix

Re: Survey

Post by DieselPheonix » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:50 am

Is that international law or what, because none of the unofficial tournaments here have been busted. Smash, Street Fighter, DDR, the works. Of course, they're also small local things with no internet publicity, so I guess those would slip under the radar more easily, and the winnings weren't that great, if I remember correctly.

Alternatively, is it illegal to hand out a shirt instead?

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HPD
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Re: Survey

Post by HPD » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:59 am

It might be viewed as a form of gambling of some kind. If that's the case then I know for sure it's illegal over here when money is involved. And if Sven already had problems with this kind of thing I think it's prudent to avoid any conflict with your local authorities. <_<;

When giving the winner a complimentary t-shirt, I don't think we'd be crossing any legal boundaries, however.

Also you haven't yet given your opinion about said shirt. Any thoughts on them?
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Xenesis
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Re: Survey

Post by Xenesis » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:09 pm

I'm tempted to get one of those printed up so I can have one for myself :D
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

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DieselPheonix

Re: Survey

Post by DieselPheonix » Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:19 pm

Uh, isn't it also illegal to put Sturm on a shirt? <_<

Hmm, what about Olaf's chair? That would be pretty inconspicuous, wouldn't it? Maybe have his cap resting on one of the arms. Just throwing that out there, no idea where the text would go.

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HPD
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Re: Survey

Post by HPD » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:01 pm

Xenesis wrote:I'm tempted to get one of those printed up so I can have one for myself :D
I have higher quality versions. I've scaled down the ones above for convenience.

And I don't believe putting Sturm on a shirt is illegal. It probably would be if I'd sell the shirts for profit, but I'm not going to do that.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Sven

Re: Survey

Post by Sven » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:31 pm

DieselPheonix wrote:Is that international law or what, because none of the unofficial tournaments here have been busted. Smash, Street Fighter, DDR, the works. Of course, they're also small local things with no internet publicity, so I guess those would slip under the radar more easily, and the winnings weren't that great, if I remember correctly.

Alternatively, is it illegal to hand out a shirt instead?
technically illegal, odds of getting caught are like near zero, i don't think the legality is seriously an issue here.

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Moib

Re: Survey

Post by Moib » Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:27 pm

I'd be interested even though my skill level is laughable and my knowledge of the differences between different versions is minuscule (working on a joke about minuscule things, give me a minute...) :D
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DTaeKim
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Re: Survey

Post by DTaeKim » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:30 am

I would be interested, period.
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Terragent
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Re: Survey

Post by Terragent » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:44 pm

Bumping this for revival.

I would be willing to run (brackets, coordination and arbitration) a medium-scale tournament. Ideally I'd like to have a bit of retro fun with it (savestate swap for AW2 or AW1 would be my preferred option for that) but given practicalities I would be willing to consider both DoR and AWBW. If we're just doing it as a WWN thing then that's fine, but I'd be happy to hawk it over at AWN and maybe other places, although if we go with SSS then they're likely to be a lot less familiar with it.

It certainly wouldn't be too super srs business - personally, I'm mostly advocating this for the nostalgia. I'm also considering streamlining the tournament a bit as far as the maps go. Specifically, I'd consider running every game apart from the finals on the more fair IS maps, and compensating for their wonky balance by making the players play both sides of each map - if it came down to one win each then we could use either quickest victory or highest damage value as a tiebreaker.

Provisional CO bans (completely open to discussion)

AW2: Colin, Hachi, Grit, Kanbei, Sensei, Nell, Sturm
AW1: Max, Nell
AWBW: Colin, Hachi, Grit, Kanbei, Sensei, Nell
DoR: Caulder

I'm a bit rusty on AWBW CO balance, so I've just taken the AW2 banlist and knocked Sturm off it since AWBW Sturm is based on AW1 vs Sturm.

As far as cheating and rule enforcement are concerned, different methods would require different options. AWBW is probably the most absolutely cheat-free environment, with DoR close behind. The former can simply be viewed publicly, while with the latter I think we can afford to take people on faith. In the case of SSS being used, I'd run matches through email, with players ccing me into every post of moves and the match, players and day in the subject header - that way if someone accuses their opponent of cheating, I'll have a complete record of the match that I can examine.

So yeah, let's try and do this.

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Sven

Re: Survey

Post by Sven » Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:16 pm

SSS is going to inevitably have luck resetting - unlike other methods of cheating; it has nearly anything one could wish for: it's a quick action, it's easy to perform, and it's effortless to learn.

Perhaps you'll want to toss together a hack which fixes the luck range to a constant - perhaps 5%, or we can just go on trust.

If it's on some notion of "trust in the community" I'm definitely not contributing to a pot. If it's strictly AWBW/DoR yeah sure I'll contribute some $$$.

anyway nell is uneeded, she's didn't work out to be wtf pwn in practice like we all thought.
bella is most likely needed for DoR as she pretty much strictly outclasses every CO.

no one really knows AW1 and strict AW2 wasn't too explored either (removal of many sami alternatives offered in AWBW being an issue that comes to mind, she's probably ok though)

though having people play both sides of a map and deciding winners based on stats is essentially 100% fair so go.

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Terragent
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Re: Survey

Post by Terragent » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:15 pm

Yeah, Isabella and AW2 Sami were the only unlisted COs I thought were potentially ban-worthy, but I didn't have a good enough idea of high-level play to call it either way.

Just to clarify, I wasn't planning on asking people to put down money for this tournament - the competition would be strictly for the glory. Maaaaaybe a shirt if I can fork out for it.

Luck cheating is pretty much unenforceable, yeah, but given there's no money at stake I'd be willing to let people play it on faith. Given that, I should probably ban the luck COs or at least restrict them to being usable only by mutual agreement. Personally I'd say Nell is gamebreakingly good even without cheating; +60/+100 on her COP and SCOP are both pretty vicious when combined with the inf spam that is the bread and butter of pre-DoR Advance Wars.

Hmm, let's see how big the legal lists are with the suggested bans...

DoR: Will, Lin, Brenner, Tasha, Gage, Forsythe, Waylon, Greyfield, Penny, Tabitha
AW2: Andy, Max, Olaf, Sonja, Eagle, Drake, Jess, Flak, Lash, Adder, Hawke

That's 10 for DoR and 11 for AW2. Although frankly I think there's a lot more discrepancy between the strongest and weakest DoR COs listed there than for the AW2 ones. Strongest AW2 CO on that list is probably Max or Hawke, and the gap between them and the bottom (Flak, realistically) isn't that enormous. In DoR we probably won't see any use from Tasha, Waylon or Greyfield unless it's a map that specifically caters to their strengths.

Say we drop the (arguably) weakest COs from the rosters - AW2 loses Flak, Drake and Adder, DoR loses Waylon, Tasha and Greyfield. That's 8 legal and useful CO choices from AW2 and 7 from DoR. Not too bad, I suppose.

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HPD
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Re: Survey

Post by HPD » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:24 pm

I don't think luck abuse will be that much of an issue, unless people choose luck based COs like Flak or Nell. So I'd probably ban those COs to prevent abuse. Of course, this only applies when we use SSS.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Re: Survey

Post by Bog » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:14 pm

Few questions:

- I thought AW1 Grit and Kanbei were considered broken too? And AWBW Von Bolt? (It's been a while so I can't really remember)
- If we play for money, how much are we talking?
- What maps would we be using? We want to keep FTA to a minimum.

Also I'd rather not use SSS as it's incredibly tedious and invites luck cheating, but I'll make do if the majority prefer otherwise.

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Xenesis
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Re: Survey

Post by Xenesis » Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:32 pm

If you guys want to play AW2 SSS it'd be incredibly easy to just force the game to spit out +5% for all attacks if you want to completely remove all randomness.
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

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DTaeKim
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Re: Survey

Post by DTaeKim » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:14 am

If we're going to use AWBW, I'd rather not mess with AWDS mechanics on that.
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Re: Survey

Post by Gentleman of Dread » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:22 am

I would be intrested in a Tournement, only thing is I have no money to give to the pot :(
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DieselPheonix

Re: Survey

Post by DieselPheonix » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:55 am

Obviously this was a poorly masked attempt to garner interest in a CW mod by waving money around. So, no, I never intended for the players to make the pot. However, the admins believe any kind of money reward is a bad idea, and as I'm unwilling to do this without a major AW site's backing, I'm awaiting details on arranging an alternate prize instead.

Speaking of which, do the prospective vendors handle other clothing? Like hats?

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HPD
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Re: Survey

Post by HPD » Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:20 am

Actually, yeah.

I've found they print on lots of stuff, ranging from ties to teddy bears. It's pretty rad.

However, no printing will be done until Xen returns to Australia, where he will investigate on the costs and quality of t-shirt printing there. Once we have that information, we'll decide what to do.

But you may very well start the signups now. The winner can get an IOU for the shirt in the meantime.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

Bog
Meteor Striked
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Re: Survey

Post by Bog » Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:21 am

How much would that cost to post from Austrailia? <_<

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