Halo 5 and other arena shooters

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Pkdragon
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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Pkdragon » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:51 am

And some games like Fire Emblem(depends on game) and advance wars defy it.
fire emblem has animu faces so bog probably hates it

i wouldn't blame him tho, record of agarest war is a much better breeding simulator
HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

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Narts
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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Narts » Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:20 pm

That Advance Wars and Fire Emblem represent Nintendo's answer to "strategy games" only supports bog's assertment, dragonite

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Dragonite
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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Dragonite » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:09 pm

Fire emblem dates from the 80's though. PC games couldn't be that more deep around they time.

And Civ does sound like a lot of fun, but then you have buggy Gandi nukes because of entangled variables. A game can be simpler, but it's only shallow for me as it's mechanics fall apart on further inspection. If simple mechanics allow varation, creatity, and skill, it's not shallow. That's kind of the whole deal with AW1's praise.

I'd call pokemon go shallow atm though. Fun, ?75 catching isn't that complex, and battles rely on brute stats and easily found best options.

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by daisy » Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:19 am

Dragonite wrote:Fire emblem dates from the 80's though. PC games couldn't be that more deep around they time.
If by "PC" you mean IBM PC / Wintel, then yes. If we include the various other types of PC around during the 80s, such as the Apple II, then you are way way waaaaay off. Wasteland and the Ultima series are great RPGs, and Elite was arguably 20-30 years ahead of its time. You won't find them on the NES.(EDIT: Some Ultima games got ported but weren't of the same quality.) Pretty much the only thing 80s consoles could do that PCs of the time couldn't was smooth scrolling, which is why you don't get too many 2D platformers in that era.

I played a FE 3DS game demo. Dunno what the fudge it was. All I remember is a poor man's fantasy AW with irritating Japanese adventure game cliches. It also insisted that I give a crap about the story in what I thought was a strategy game. I didn't really understand it. It was weird.

Bear in mind that AW itself is a clone of Empire, which again was a computer exclusive. It's why I got AW in the first place. "Portable Empire?! Awesome!"

The difference is that Nintendo is still stuck in 1985 in terms of game design. Everyone else has moved on.

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Narts
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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Narts » Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:41 am

PC games weren't not only more complex, AW & FE represent gameplay mechanics that were pretty much the expected standard for RPG's and strategy games at the time. People didn't talk about "tactical RPG's" back then, because tactical, turn-based multi-unit combat was a staple feature of mainstream RPG's of the time - popularised by series such as Ultima and SSI's gold-boxes. A typical 80's RPG had the combat and then complex adventuring in addition to that. The genre continued to evolve to even more complexity well into the 90's while FE's core mechanics have stayed more or less the same.

Part of what drew me into AW in the first place was the nostalgia; it felt like a throwback to an era when turn-based strategy was a vibrant and alive genre, before the double-whammy of Dune 2 and C&C all but killed the genre for many years until indies brought it back in the 2000's.

Comparatively speaking it's not deep. It's even pretty shallow. Chess and Go have even simpler rules and deeper strategy, and they're board games.

Simple comparison could be how long you have to study to become good at the game. People study chess & Go for their entire lives, and might never reach master level. I barely even played AW in its hey-day, and I could compete with the best players, simply because I had some experience in strategy games in general (unlike the average Nintendo fan I guess). The meta in AW has been stagnant for years, and only changes because of different mechanics in each game.

@bog: Elite actually had a NES port released in the early 90's. It was the last version of the original Elite published.

It's also entirely possible the makers of Famicom Wars were not aware of Empire. Plenty of board games with a similar theme and mechanics had existed for decades - they could have simply shared a source of inspiration, or been completely unrelated.

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by daisy » Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:57 am

Narts wrote:@bog: Elite actually had a NES port released in the early 90's. It was the last version of the original Elite published.
Didn't know that. Not much about it online. Was it functional or unplayable and stripped like the SNES port of Doom? #masterrace
Narts wrote:It's also entirely possible the makers of Famicom Wars were not aware of Empire. Plenty of board games with a similar theme and mechanics had existed for decades - they could have simply shared a source of inspiration, or been completely unrelated.
It's possible pre-internet I suppose, although the first Wars game was 11 years after Empire so I think that's a bit of a stretch. The Wars series always felt like a bit of a knockoff to me. (A good knockoff, mind you. Otherwise I wouldn't be here.)

EDIT: Oh and let's not forget about Civilization.

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Narts
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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Narts » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:05 am

NES Elite was actually good. I've played it only through an emulator, but it's surprisingly playable considering it's played using a d-pad and 2 buttons. I actually consider it one of the best versions of Elite.

My understanding is that Empire was fairly obscure until the Interstel version released in 1987 (only a year before Famicom Wars)

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by daisy » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:07 am

Fair. Yeah I never played the text version.

Speaking of Japanese adventure games, I keep meaning to a do a LP of Undertale. I fudge hate that game. Love bitching about it though.

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Dragonite
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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Dragonite » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:04 am

That probably would be awe-inspiring.

Any reasons why? I have yet to play it, but I know it's (in)famous. I probably should summon Joey for some fireworks.

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Linkman » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:12 am

I personally think every Wars game before AW1 is nigh unplayable. FW and SFW are awful.

Maybe the GameBoy Wars but who knows.
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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by daisy » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:23 am

Dragonite wrote:Any reasons why? I have yet to play it, but I know it's (in)famous. I probably should summon Joey for some fireworks.
It's the definitive example of style over substance. Most of the faults with it apply to the Japanese adventure game genre in general. The fans rant and rave about it touching their soul and making them feel, etc etc blah blah. Me? I felt nothing but irritation throughout the entire thing.

I also have a real issue with the use of 8-bit graphics, which is fashionable among indie devs right now because it's easy to produce, not because it looks good. Budget, I know, but it's an excuse for laziness. It leads to presentation problems, like only two lines of text able to appear on the screen at once. That's acceptable on a Gameboy screen, but not a frigging monitor/TV.

EDIT: And FFS let me change the resolution. Who the fudge makes a PC game in the modern era that doesn't give you at least basic graphics options? Am I supposed to play it in a window?

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by scraggypunk » Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:29 am

yes
wisdom
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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by daisy » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:11 am

AFAIK Undertale was created with Gamemaker. Unless the program has got a lot less powerful in the last 12 years, fullscreening your game and scaling it to common resolutions is as easy as ticking a box. It's like the most basic thing ever.

...Although having said that, I haven't played a single PC game from Japan that uses monitor resolutions properly, so the awful optimisation might be another part of the obvious tribute to crumpets games.

(Why do I feel like I'm playing a character on WWN?)

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Pkdragon
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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Pkdragon » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:58 am

LISA > Undertale

also i liked undertale better when it was called shin megami tensei
HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by daisy » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:08 am

Pkdragon wrote:shin megami tensei
Wikipedia actually makes this sound pretty cool.

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Bonesy » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:41 am

Pkdragon wrote:LISA > Undertale

also i liked undertale better when it was called shin megami tensei
ayyylmao

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Pkdragon » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:54 am

SMT is definitely an above-average JRPG series. I realize that's not setting the bar very high, but still. I recommend SMT:Nocturne, it's probably the best of the series, and one of the few JRPGs with a real reputation for difficulty. Which again, is not a very high bar, but it at least requires that you to think, and grinding really doesn't get you very far.

but yeah i was being snide i can't really help myself when undertale is involved :?

but since im here i might as well bring up that planescape torment was another game that makes undertale a lot less appealing. i've already done the pacifist thing. i didn't need to be bribed, avoiding PS:T's shoddy combat engine was all the reward I needed.
HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

daisy
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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by daisy » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:22 am

Pkdragon wrote: but it at least requires that you to think, and grinding really doesn't get you very far.
Interesting. The grind and lack of thought required is what puts me off most Japanese adventure games. (Every time I type that I grin, please bite.)
Pkdragon wrote: but since im here i might as well bring up that planescape torment was another game that makes undertale a lot less appealing. i've already done the pacifist thing. i didn't need to be bribed, avoiding PS:T's shoddy combat engine was all the reward I needed.
You know, PST is I think the only Infinity engine game I've not played. Not sure why. I freaking love Baldur's Gate.

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Xenesis » Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:36 pm

Empire was an interesting game, but it certainly suffered from being a really old game and not really having a friendly user interface.
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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Dragonite » Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:15 am

Adventure games? If I remember correctly you don't like the japanese style as role-playing games right?

I would say some of them require thought, bur less so if you already figured out the most efficient way to work with the battle system, and have the matching setup prepared. SMT battle rules quickly don't work in your favor if you don't adapt constantly from what I know of it. I should try IV sometime.

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by daisy » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:57 am

Dragonite wrote:Adventure games? If I remember correctly you don't like the japanese style as role-playing games right?
where is the roleplaying?

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Dragonite » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:22 am

tl;dr version: Draggy is bored on saturday night and gets poetic about gaming.

It was originally a electronic offshoot of tabletop roleplaying games, so that's where the label comes as a legacy term.The main thing western RPGs are known for is a more custom player avatar sapproach to characters and branching plots , but even then plot of the game determines the big details of their background and origin for you.JRPG's do use player avatars and story branching on occasion. It's just more of a ''assuming the role of X'' kind of role-play.

I would even say all games are technically role-playing. A weird gaming quirk of mine is trying to act out somewhat like the current playable character would(canon competence is a sore point here). With Pokemon it's easy to add a bit of mental RPG flavour to it. True RPG immersion is up to the player in my opinion, and such RPG in electronic gaming which cannot be amended by imagination like tabletop can is a fuzzy undertaking, should you take your arguments

I'd agree with you probably only the western style is able to a be true RPG for you on a personal level because of immersion(I assume this is the root of this). But on rejecting the JRPG as a RPG as a objective term I disgagree. JRPG as a term still works to me as a term, to me because they are more geared to make a roleplaying experience based on immersion as assuming a character.

On a related note, the best works of fiction make a similar experience happen.

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by daisy » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:27 am

I almost said "inb4allgameshaveroles."

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Dragonite » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:38 am

Well, you know me. But at least I presented it nicely?

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Xenesis » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:28 am

I mean, Final Fantasy 1 is basically a very custom D&D module.
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Pkdragon » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:22 pm

i have a lot to say on this subject but i am not nearly lucid enough right now to post and itd probably be an essay in its own right
HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Narts » Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:52 pm

Role-playing is like improvised acting/writing. It's a social activity that takes more than one person.

It's something that almost never happens in video games, except sometimes in MMO's.

Character customisation and stats =/= role-playing

In video games, RPG remains the common term for "that" genre because no one has come up with anything better that would have stuck.

"Adventure game" was usually reserved for those games that are like Monkey Island etc. But that genre is practically dead, so in theory it could be adopted by RPG's. Waiting for that to catch on.

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Dragonite » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:25 pm

Action-adventure is already in use, so it won't.
One would need a valid encompassing prefix, but it's hard with ''tabletop stats and a plot'' to thunj of something that tops RPG for conveying thus. RPG and RPG elements are both so deeply entrenched this won't happen soon though.

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Narts » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:29 pm

Action-adventure doesn't mean anything though. All of those games are just action games.

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Dragonite » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:14 pm

Everything that requires you to react in real-time is, yes.

So it's kind of pointless to argue change in terminology since you can point out shortcomings in any alternatives. I guess racing, First-person shooters, puzzles, and turn-based tactics are the ones everybody would agree on.

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Narts » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:19 pm

No. You are wrong and I am right.

There is nothing in "action adventure" games that separates them from "action" games.

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by daisy » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:53 pm

I've played D&D a reasonable amount, and Pathfinder a bit. I can absolutely understand why most pre-ME2/3 Bioware games are considered RPGs. Same with all Bethesda games sans FO4, which is an FPS with stats. Nothing I have ever played that has come out of Japan has come close to what I consider to be an RPG. They have a lot more in common with western adventure games, especially the LucasArts point-and-click games. Just because a game has stats and a crumpets combat system from the late 80s doesn't mean it's an RPG.

Morrowind is probably the game I've found that's come closest to emulating the feel of D&D. Baldur's Gate 2 second.

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Dragonite » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:26 pm

What did they specially do that ticks RPG?

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by daisy » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:44 pm

They essentially replace the DM with the computer. Genuine RPGs have an emphasis on decision making outside of combat but not exclusively, which will then affect the direction of the story. They will almost always have more than one ending, if they end at all. If you have a party, your party members will act differently towards you depending on your actions, as will other NPCs.

Computers by their nature are limited and can (probably) therefore never come close to the fluidity of a real DM, but Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim come extremely close just with the sheer amount of possibilities within the roleplaying. (I'm not talking about quality here, merely definitions.)

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Narts
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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Narts » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:59 am

What you're talking about is just the difference between open-ended and linear games.

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Pkdragon » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:01 am

TBQH, I wouldn't entirely disagree with you. I mean, I too play Pathfinder quite often, and nothing that video games provide can compare to the ingenuity that players display on a regular basis, and only a GM is flexible enough to allow that to translate into the game's reality. And certain WRPGs (not all of them though!) have more in common with D&D and other tabletop games than others. I mean, Baldur's Gate is explicitly a D&D game, and explicitly attempts to capture the D&D feel. But can we really fault games with no interest in being D&D for not being D&D? We can, but only if we consider that to be an all-important aspect of a RPG.

The key thing is that for better or worse, the definition of RPG has morphed. It definitely doesn't apply to role-playing alone, the fact that some games in the role playing genre have something approaching actual roleplaying just means that some of the games in the genre remain closer to the roots than others.

(slight tangent on what an RPG is in my book)
Spoiler: show
I personally consider RPG to be so watered down that if I were forced to define it it would be something like "games with stats and emphasis on number crunching over pure action", because there's nothing else that really is fully in common between all the games in the genre. Not all games are turn based, not all of them have roleplaying, not all of them have customization, but all of them seem to have some sort of stats that you can use to predict how well you will do in battle to some degree. And that's really about it. Of course, then you have games like Borderlands which have stats, but they are mostly secondary to the action, making them "games with RPG-elements". It's not a perfect fit, but it's the closest I've got to encompassing the genre.
To say that you want RPGs to have actual roleplaying is at this point just pissing in the wind, it's a nice sentiment but not terribly useful, because there are so many games that are fully accepted to be RPGs that don't have that, or have very light elements. And for me? While I recognize the problem in the genre name, ultimately I don't care. The amount of roleplaying in a game isn't a huge factor for determining how enjoyable a game is. So when I see a post like "where's the roleplaying", my reaction is to shrug.

(For the record I do wish there was another better name for the genre, and that's why I haven't really cared about you calling JRPGs adventure games, because quite frankly, some of the popular ones are so bad they insult adventure games. *coughGOLDENSUNcough*).

So to me, what we're really talking about isn't whether a game conforms to whatever definition you have of RPG. What's a more useful way to look at the conversation, IMO, is as identifying what elements common in an RPG are important to be a good game. If you cut the definition crumpets, suddenly we're talking about what's important, the elements of a successful game.

EDIT: shortened it a bit >_>
HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by daisy » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:53 pm

I really enjoyed that PK.

Take the Pokemon games as an example. There is no decision making to be had there. It is literally an adventure game with the combat system of an 80s RPG. Therefore it doesn't belong in the roleplaying genre because it doesn't have any roleplaying it in, but it does have RPG influences.

But yeah, definitions aside, I really don't get the J"RPG" genre or understand it's popularity at all. I literally have no idea why anyone can find most of the fun, especially the older ones with random combat.
Narts wrote:What you're talking about is just the difference between open-ended and linear games.
RPGs are open-ended at least to an extent by definition. (Unless your DM is crumpets)

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Pkdragon
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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Pkdragon » Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:43 pm

I think that there's an interesting argument buried in the genre argument- you're arguing that there's no decision making, and I'd take that a step further actually- player decision making is a desirable game element, regardless of genre. That it happens to be a hallmark of tabletop RPGs like D&D is simply a reason why D&D is a decent source to draw inspiration from.

I don't enjoy most older JRPGs, tbqh. For me, the genre started getting good in the PS1 era, and got solid in the PS2 era. More on that later, I need to go to work lol
HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

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Dragonite
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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Dragonite » Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:50 pm

I looked at wikipedia about it, and it's seeming a distinct divide in styles. Japanese developers have stated a focused narrative and characters give them more room to build up the character. Giving more choice also results in a game in which the systems governing it are more visible. I can see the appeal of playing it, but it does end up in having a very specific atmosphere. It has it's impacts how the playable character comes across too. It's probably much better if you actually play it, but in gameplay snippets it always feels a bit artificial to look at.

Xenoblade is a JRPG that incorporates a lot of more western design with it's world and objective structure, and it's sequel has a player avatar who only speaks in player dialog. I don't know of the plot branches at some point, but you could build that in without changing the gameplay of Xenoblade much. I know shin megami tensei is well known for radically branching plots(and offending western sensibilities) as well

The argument pretty much concluded you can alter both WRPG and JRPG gameplay to bridge the differences so easily the divide is a bit overstated, and I think I agree.

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Narts
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Re: Halo 5 and other arena shooters

Post by Narts » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:07 am

daisy wrote:
Narts wrote:What you're talking about is just the difference between open-ended and linear games.
RPGs are open-ended at least to an extent by definition. (Unless your DM is crumpets)
That's true of real RPG's.

Video game / computer RPG's aren't the same thing as real RPG's.

There is no role-playing in them, as we have already established.

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