Advance Wars Net is dead (Again!)

Anything and Everything. It all goes here. Be aware that this is NOT a spam board.

Moderator: Hans Stockmann

ThunderWalker
Rank: Elf
Location: Netherlands

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by ThunderWalker » Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:02 am

Olaf and Drake play pretty similar, especially considering how short most matches are in between Gip and Sven, so neither of them gets that far as building Bombers/Battleships. It is just Infantry and a Recon and a tank here or there, that's it.
My sig is a void.

User avatar
Blame Game

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by Blame Game » Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:15 pm

In AWDS characters play the same due to systemic issues. in AW2 characters play mostly the same due to systemic issues. in DoR characters play significantly differently due to those systemic issues actually being addressed for once

those issues only really reveal themselves at a certain level of play though. below that level, AW1-3 obviously beat the crumpets out of DoR in terms of 'vibrancy' or whatever. it's not even close

anyway the point is that it's understandable that there's always a huge difference of opinion as far as this issue is concerned

User avatar
Sven

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by Sven » Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:32 pm

AW2 has a lot of chars that play differently buildwise. Most ended up either banned or unplayable though.

I'm not gonna defend AWDS charging, crumpets is miserable.

User avatar
Blame Game

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by Blame Game » Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:51 pm

yeah i definitely was going to mention that but forgot, there's some cool crumpets in AW2 that is just banned by most people. maybe rightfully so, but who knows, we probably never even figured out maps

User avatar
Dragonite
Rank: My face is beaming.
Location: the netherlands(mostly)

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by Dragonite » Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:47 pm

I have no idea how gip awds strats look in practice, but if I remember correctly it's fast-paced and not much like IS thought it would be played, so that's to blame. Their selling point is mass damage, and the rest doesn't impact much in the field of general tactics, it's just that frenzied. Maybe Gip can explain it better.

daisy
Rank: Crucified in the Great Meme War

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by daisy » Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:35 am

Does IS playtest anything, lol?

User avatar
Blame Game

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by Blame Game » Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:56 am

Well apparently they do, since DoR turned out solidly enough.

but the way AWDS degenerates isn't exactly intuitive so i can understand why it turned out the way that it did (general strategy is "increase unit count as much as possible, letting units die on purpose to generate meter if necessary"?). they also didn't have online play to worry about so they probably weren't that concerned with making the game 'hold up' on that level? seems like they were more intent on having lots of fun, crazy content, like skills and tag matches and so on.

User avatar
monkymeet
Rank: Bitch
3DS Code: 3480-3067-3928
Contact:

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by monkymeet » Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:44 pm

I mean, just the idea of Tags doesn't sound balanced. They probably weren't really designing it with balance in mind.
imageshack swallowed up my sig. This is a placeholder.

MrNude

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by MrNude » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:05 pm

Tags were broken even when the AI used them.

daisy
Rank: Crucified in the Great Meme War

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by daisy » Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:36 pm

i forgot how tags work tbh. they give you two turns wwitohout income tight? pretty op but i suppoxe you know when they are comingh and can prepare for it

User avatar
Xenesis
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Hydrocarbon Inspector
3DS Code: 2535-4646-7163
Location: 0x020232DD
Contact:

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by Xenesis » Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:08 pm

The tl;dr of how AWDS broke down at a higher level was basically thus:

•CO Powers charged so quickly that D2D stats were meaningless (mostly).
•Thus, Unit Increasing CO Powers > Field Effect CO Powers (Mass Damage etc.)> Lighting Strike > Individual Unit Boosts. We're talking about things like Sensei actually being capable of hitting the unit cap by Day 12 or so.

•Beyond anything else, unit stats are rendered mostly irrelevant because Unit Count Lol, Mass Damage Lol or Black Bombs Lol.
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by GipFace » Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:41 am

Yeah, that's pretty much it, except that since defense is still king, Kanbei and Von Bolt are rated highly. Also, Eagle always uses Lightning Drive because it has the side effect of producing more units at 1/3 the cost of Lightning Strike. Lightning Drive is what makes Eagle great, not his 120A b-copters.

Okay, here's a longer explanation of why I feel all COs play the same way in AW3. AW3 is dominated by infantry, tanks, and the odd artillery or two, and perhaps the odd recon, antiair, and b-copter as well. These units have very high charge rates:

0.4* - Infantry
1.0* - Recon, Artillery, Tank, Antiair
1.2* - B-Copter

Mechs aren't very good because infantry beat them, and every two mechs you build means one less tank for you to play with. Mechs also charge at exactly the same rate as infantry, 0.4*. No one really touches mechs except Sami.

At the beginning of the game, you are going to build nothing but infantry because you start with 3 properties: 2 bases and the HQ. The first build order decision is whether you want an early recon, or bank for a tank. This is map dependent; it doesn't matter whether I'm Max or Drake. This is unlike AW4, where you could either turtle with mechs, bank for a tank, turtle with artillery, or bank for a b-copter.

So why can't you build an early artillery in AW3? Well, you can, but it's not as good. All the COs who boost artillery would rather get a tank out first, except Grit, who is the worst CO in the game anyway. In AW4, you can turtle with artillery and mechs, but in AW3, turtling with infantry and artillery just gets you black bombed. It's a race to 3 tanks, because if you have 2 tanks and the enemy has 1, then they can't do anything. They need at least 3 tanks to match your 3-5 tanks.

The b-copter isn't as good in AW3 because it deals significantly less damage to tanks. It plays a different role. Due to the black bomb, armies cannot form a defensive cluster. They must be mobile and ready to strike the opponent at any time. The b-copter is especially useful because you can suicide it against an enemy antiair and immediately get one star for one unit.

So how will your build orders differ? The majority of the COs have 100/100 units, and so their build orders are exactly the same. Olaf has bland units, and so does Drake (90A b-copters will be sent on suicide attacks anyway). They won't go out of their way to build things suitable for their weather conditions. Jess? She won't magically have more tanks than the other player. As tech units are inefficient, she won't be banking for md tanks. Eagle won't build more b-copters just because they are 120A.

As build orders are exactly the same, the trump card lies in the powers. Whoever gets the first power off has a tremendous advantage, because that also means that CO will charge the second power sooner. Once unit count gets to about 25 units per side or so, players will ram units at each other. There is no point in massing more units because the more units you have, the more a black bomb will affect you. Once the mass damage COs are about 1-2 stars away from their SCOP, they will retreat most of their units and send out 1-2 suicide units to invoke the SCOP at the end of turn. That way, they hope that the enemy doesn't get their power on their turn. The goal is to minimize all damage that would be dealt to you during your SCOP, because you don't get charge while it's activated.

Max, Grit, and Sami are the only ones with different build orders: Max wants 0 artillery, Grit wants more artillery, and Sami wants mechs.
Last edited by GipFace on Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Pkdragon
Rank: the mafia with a mouth

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by Pkdragon » Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:47 am

That is possibly the saddest post I've ever read.

I knew AWDS was bad but didn't realize it was that bad.
HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by GipFace » Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:45 am

Actually it can be argued that AW3 is more fun for casual players than AW2/AWBW because powers go off quicker, and fighting is fast and furious. And that's what casuals want. Honestly, I'd pick AW3 over AWBW any day, since the latter goes into 60+ unit stalemates that are actually impossible in the canon games. (Real AW has a 50-unit limit)

The black bomb, despite all the hate towards it, is a much-needed unit to prevent stalemates and encourage attacking. It doesn't even need to be built. Just the possibility of it being built changes the way you play.

User avatar
Dragonite
Rank: My face is beaming.
Location: the netherlands(mostly)

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by Dragonite » Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:35 am

True, but here we're (supposed) fanboys with a love for debating, so I guess most people prefer aw4 styled strategy balance. Crappy player as I might be, I do like the fact the aw4 co/unit balance turned out to be somewhat coherent. Neo-Awds just feels awkward with half of the game irrelevant or inefficent, and I always disliked HP damage outside of combat for some reason. Aw4 still has it, but only as a tactical building and a seldom seen CO power..

How do AW1 and AW2 mesh in the great balance of things again? Those games lacked speed charging and black bombs, but AWBW messed around with some game mechanics.

User avatar
Pkdragon
Rank: the mafia with a mouth

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by Pkdragon » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:30 am

Yeah, it just makes me sad to see the game reduced to such an exact science

not to mention knowing by building most of the units i was playing the game wrong
HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by GipFace » Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:28 pm

AW1 and AW2 were never explored in pvp apart from savestate swapping. Sven can tell you about that monstrosity.

AWBW is essentially AW2 with some inaccurate implementations, and the AW3 stuff shoehorned in. I won't bore you with the list of changes. Just know that I find AWBW to be incredibly boring, as over 95% of your units are one of five units: infantry, artillery, tank, b-copter, and antiair. Some games didn't have b-copter and antiair because airports weren't standard. Tech units only appeared during prolonged stalemates.

AW3 didn't fix the unit composition much, but it turned out to be a fun pvp for me because the powers fire off nearly three times faster than in AW2.

AW4 fixed unit composition by not only making mechs relevant, but by also making tech units relevant. Infantry are no longer spammable units when a boosted tech unit will 1HKO them. Of the 20 non-sea units, only 6 are rare: flare, antitank, missiles, rig, fighter, and seaplane. So instead of a 5-unit metagame, you have a 14-unit metagame. COUs have a profound effect with their zone. AW4 isn't about playing bland for a few days then using a SCOP; it's about applying continued pressure with your COU while dealing with theirs. As I've said before, the campaign did a terrible job showing how dynamic the COU system can be, so player reception wasn't great.

User avatar
Sven

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by Sven » Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:43 pm

Xen pretty much has the general explanation of how things work down. I don't quite think we've figured out the details of AWDS like Gip implies. I felt that suiciding non-infantry units was pretty much always a mistake bar weird corner cases.

Mechs are gonna do what they always have done in the older games - allow a player to lockdown a front because of how miserable it is to advance tanks into city mechs, but give up all offensive potential because of how poorly they trade with infantry without their city terrain boost.

The biggest thing I feel we're still missing from AWDS is the pacing of the game - did so many games end on day 12 instead of 18 because that's just what happens when a second power activates on day 12? Was it a stylistic thing based on how Gipface and I play AW? Maybe the right way to play is to start out jamming the arty anyway and just build your own black bombs to fight off the tanks that the opponent wants to use to tear your arty into pieces. Maybe you're just supposed to maximize unit count period and build a comp of b-copters/mechs. Or maybe I'm just overthinking it all and I should just accept that DS charging allows tank+inf only.

Honestly, I'm not really sure. I know I gave up maybe a third of our games to giving up tanks for free from range mistakes, or miscounting tiles on a starting recon harass, or setting up a wall hoping that it'd be good enough instead of actually checking that it'd be good enough, etc. Building and trading tanks and hoping that I could manage hordes of infantry better than Gip probably needed a lot less brainpower than trying to do cute things.

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by GipFace » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:41 am

The only time black bombs were actually built were games that approached day 20. You are giving up 3.5 vehicles to build the black bomb, so if the black bomb doesn't get that many vehicles then it's not worth the money. When there are 25-30 units in play, maybe 1/3 of them are vehicles, so at that point 7 vehicles + black bomb is about as good as 10-11 vehicles. But if you have less vehicles, then they double up on your vehicle count, and the black bomb won't be a magic bullet. I know we couldn't build 2 black bombs in time to bait Von Bolt's SCOP, but I think we only tried that once.

Suiciding was only very good for the mass damage and mass unit COs, who don't care when their SCOP is invoked. The unit boost COs want to invoke their SCOP at the beginning of the day.

I always thought AW3 b-copters were tactically inferior to the ones in AW4. What a b-copter does is give you +1 to unit count, but I'm not sure that 2 b-copters + 3 infantry is better than 1 tank + 2 antiair. The latter setup is a straight up hard counter. Maybe using mechs is a good idea to slow the game down like you suggested, but mechs are only good at 10hp. They suck chunks if they're hit with mass damage (they can't easily retreat to cities to heal), which is why I never built them.

Again, it'd be nice to play more people because I think Sven and I were just naturally aggressive players.

User avatar
Linkman
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Master of Fiction
Contact:

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by Linkman » Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:16 am

I am just getting through the AWDS campaign (yes I just recently acquired it) so I'm down to play a few games after the holidays.
"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
"I can't believe I'm the only person who voted Stallone. His appeal lies in watching is movies again and again just to hear what the hell he's talking about." - Kilteh

User avatar
donnytondesterkste
Rank: Platinum Dragon
Location: In your dreams
Contact:

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by donnytondesterkste » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:26 pm

Well damn, I just noticed after ~3 years of negligence that AWN was down (I actually managed to work my way up to a DM admin in my youth >_>)

Good to see this place is still kickin' (and waiting hopelessly for that next AW release). And there's even some familiar names floating about! Though I doubt any of the newer people will even recognize me...

So, anyone remember the ol' Gfaqs days? Good times, good times...
"I'd sig that, but no room. >_>" -Blame Game

User avatar
Blame Game

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by Blame Game » Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:31 pm

oh cool donnyton, the classic

i remember you having some weird pulsating skeleton-with-tophat avatar or something

User avatar
HPD
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Mentat
Location: The Mountain
Contact:

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by HPD » Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:48 pm

That was Iron Maiden's Eddie.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

User avatar
Blame Game

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by Blame Game » Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:40 am

yeah i don't know crumpets about anything apparently sorry =(

in any case going forward i will never associate that with anything other than donnyton

User avatar
donnytondesterkste
Rank: Platinum Dragon
Location: In your dreams
Contact:

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by donnytondesterkste » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:36 am

That one was my favorite avatar, until WWN switched to forum software that no longer allowed animated GIFs for avatars.

RIP

EDIT: I found it Image
"I'd sig that, but no room. >_>" -Blame Game

MrNude

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by MrNude » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:16 pm

Advancewarsnet was the first site I ever joined. Also the only one I have never been banned from. I'll miss it.

User avatar
monkymeet
Rank: Bitch
3DS Code: 3480-3067-3928
Contact:

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by monkymeet » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:42 pm

you've been banned from here?
imageshack swallowed up my sig. This is a placeholder.

User avatar
Hexagon
Rank: A Person of Some Little Consequence
Location: DC

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by Hexagon » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:54 pm

Aw, this is sad. I check back on WWN for the first time in like a bajillion years and find out this happened. It makes me sad to see a community that big just dissolve like that, especially when it was the first online forum I ever joined.
Omnes adsint, quamvis dementi, quamvis nefasti


User avatar
Linkman
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Master of Fiction
Contact:

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead

Post by Linkman » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:16 am

The empire strikes back. Booyah!
"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
"I can't believe I'm the only person who voted Stallone. His appeal lies in watching is movies again and again just to hear what the hell he's talking about." - Kilteh

User avatar
DTaeKim
Star CO
Star CO
Rank: War Room Legend
Location: In your base, killing your d00ds
Contact:

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead (Not anymore!)

Post by DTaeKim » Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:46 am

I guess reports of its demise were greatly exaggerated.
What can change the nature of a man?

User avatar
Sven

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead (Not anymore!)

Post by Sven » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:02 pm

that's pretty neato. nice to have one of the oldest sites still up. hopefully AWBW lasts too.

GipFace
Rank: Lord of Children Games

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead (Not anymore!)

Post by GipFace » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:18 am

Yesss now I can link people to the ladder page again as proof that I am the master of a children's war game

User avatar
Bonesy
Rank: Jenkem Peddler
3DS Code: 0318 8318 0000
Location: Arid Zone

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead (Not anymore!)

Post by Bonesy » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:52 am

dead again hueuheuhueuheuheu

User avatar
Linkman
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Master of Fiction
Contact:

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead (Not anymore!)

Post by Linkman » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:17 am

WELP
"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
"I can't believe I'm the only person who voted Stallone. His appeal lies in watching is movies again and again just to hear what the hell he's talking about." - Kilteh

toast

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead (Again!)

Post by toast » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:32 am

Jesus you guys are quick to declare AWN dead. At least wait until we stop breathing to have our funeral - the bills just need paid. Give it a couple days and if nothing has changed, *then* you can declare us dead.

User avatar
HPD
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Mentat
Location: The Mountain
Contact:

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead (Again!)

Post by HPD » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:38 am

Hahaha, don't sweat it mate. It did seem pretty final last time around, though, so don't blame us for that one.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

toast

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead (Again!)

Post by toast » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:51 am

well, I did post "AWN is dead forever" on the main page. I was just as surprised as anyone when I found out it was to be revived.

daisy
Rank: Crucified in the Great Meme War

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead (Again!)

Post by daisy » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:05 am

Why did it return?
HPD wrote:Hahaha, don't sweat it mate.
You've been hanging around Australians too much.

User avatar
HPD
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Mentat
Location: The Mountain
Contact:

Re: Advance Wars Net is dead (Again!)

Post by HPD » Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:25 pm

No regrets.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest