SECRET HITLER 2 - FASCISTS WIN

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Terragent
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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - President Executing Player

Post by Terragent » Wed May 25, 2016 9:45 am

Yeah, triple Fascist draw - not much to be done about it, I'm afraid.

I might need a bit more time to think about this; are we certain that Dragonite is harmless as an identified Fascist? He can still vote, and any time the Liberals are divided in opinion he'll be able to tip it in the way he wants.

Agreed on PK (even if he is a Fascist, and I have no reason to think he is, he's at least not a game-ending Chancellor choice) and on you - not 100% sure about MLAD.

Hawkesni and Bonesy have both been quiet enough that I don't feel I can decide with confidence. I guess that a low profile might be a Hitler indicator?

Let me know what y'all think, I'll decide in a few hours.

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Pkdragon
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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - President Executing Player

Post by Pkdragon » Wed May 25, 2016 11:07 am

Yeah, I'm not as sold on excluding Dragonite from our options- right now executing a liberal would probably be a game-ending mistake, and Dragonite is our safest option for avoiding that and gaining a voting advantage. I'm honestly a pretty big fan of that, though I think that killing Bonesy is FAIRLY SAFE just because he was overly defensive when I considered the odds of him being mafia and he's been casting a lot of Nein votes- but by no means is he guaranteed to be fascist.

(That said, from where I'm standing, with Linkman and Terr basically confirmed liberal and me knowing my own role, I can safely say that only 1 of the other 4 players is a liberal, so the odds aren't bad at all for once- it's just what happens if we misfire that's awful.)

The fact that you haven't already killed someone gives me a lot of hope- unless you're overly sadistic you have no reason to pretend at this point, so I'm pretty sure we got screwed on our draw. I'm going to continue onwards assuming you are liberal because if you aren't we are already dead anyway.
HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - President Executing Player

Post by Terragent » Thu May 26, 2016 1:48 am

Pkdragon wrote:Terr basically confirmed liberal
Funny you should say that.

Execute Pkdragon.

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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - President Executing Player

Post by HPD » Thu May 26, 2016 2:07 am

Pkdragon was ordered to be executed by President Terragent! He was aligned with the Liberals!

Now, I know MysteriousLad would be chosen as candidate next, but sorry, he won't get a turn.

I am going to call the game as a FASCIST victory, guys. Right now, it's become impossible for the liberals to win. Liberals no longer have a majority vote, so the fascists can just refuse each and every government that does not elect Hitler as Chancellor, which means it's down to flipping the top cards of the deck and enacting them. However, out of the three remaining LIBERAL policy cards in the deck, two have already been discarded by fascists. So there's only one possible LIBERAL card that could be enacted, while the Liberals need two to win.

Q.E.D. Liberals cannot win this anymore, so it's a FASCIST victory!

Hawke was Hitler, by the way. You guys were close, but Terr managed to confuse you just enough.
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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - FASCISTS WIN

Post by Dragonite » Thu May 26, 2016 3:01 am

I was partially having a poorly timed rough time in my personal life causing me to choke easier(again), and partially I just let my earlier work play out. Going openly facist when I did was not a bad idea. A few liberal policies actually increase facist advantage. They can pass a few on purpose to gain credibility, and it weakens the deck so they can pull a snowball victory lategame. The risk of having only one liberal policy left to win was unacceptable to me, so that's why I blew my cover. I should've easily matched Linky in the bluffing game though. Still, he picked Terr, and he might not have done that if I turned the situation into a debate.

Would the rest mind to talk tactics for a bit before we move on to anything? I'm interested at this point how the game balance works, and what strategy is optimal.

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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - FASCISTS WIN

Post by HPD » Thu May 26, 2016 3:16 am

Alright, some of my thoughts:

I personally expected both you and Terr to both pass double fascist cards as president. Terr perhaps even more so, since he was President right in front of Hitler. He could've easily passed fascist to set up Hitler for nabbing the inspection. Having Hitler himself take the inspection would've been huge, as he would've got a shot at finding out who his allies were. This did not happen, and Hawke was forced to pass the first fascist policy, which was not helping his credibility.

In hindsight, the first deck was so awful to liberals that we might've never seen a liberal card pass the first four rounds. Both Hawke and Bonesy received a triple fascist draw, and the other fascist presidents got a single liberal which they could've easily destroyed. Adding to that the number of times the fascists were elected in the government really made me wonder how the hell we even got this many liberal policies enacted in the first place.

I don't think, therefore, that the fascists played a very good game. I honestly think the liberals were doing better, making pretty good calls overall and even getting the executive powers away from Fascists. Up until Linkman voted Terr into office, that is. You guys had Hitler down to a 50/50 shot if only a liberal was elected president. And even there I think Hawke would've been the better target over Bonesy, seeing as his inspection on ML with a confirmed fascist raising no doubt to that claim was very very likely to be honest (only if Bonesy AND Dragonite were fascist and ML was Hitler). Even if Terr would be the chancellor and pass the fascist bill instead of the liberal, you could very well have killed Hitler and won it right then and there. Voting Terr for president was the worst decision in the game. I'm sure Linkman will disagree, but that is my opinion.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - FASCISTS WIN

Post by hawkesnightmare » Thu May 26, 2016 4:23 am

Since I was Hitler and I had no idea who my allies were, I was going to try to play the most liberal game I could, both to keep my profile down and effectively double my chances of getting chosen as Chancellor. That didn't exactly pan out when I got the triple fascist draw. At the very least I would have given my partner a choice in policies.
daisy: If the UK is worse than the present #5 in the world in terms of GDP come July 1st 2018 I will dye my hair pink.

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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - FASCISTS WIN

Post by Linkman » Thu May 26, 2016 4:40 am

Hpd this doesnt mean the fascists win. They don't kniw who the fascists are either so they can't just nein everything.

Qed this is not mafia
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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - FASCISTS WIN

Post by Linkman » Thu May 26, 2016 4:43 am

There was a second kill right? A fascist or liberal president could have killed hitler.
"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
"I can't believe I'm the only person who voted Stallone. His appeal lies in watching is movies again and again just to hear what the hell he's talking about." - Kilteh

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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - FASCISTS WIN

Post by HPD » Thu May 26, 2016 4:48 am

Ok, so the fascists know the other fascists are and who Hitler is, but Hitler only doesn't know who the other fascists are. But even then, they know of themselves they are fascists, so they know they'll win by denying any government that doesn't elect Hitler as Chancellor. A triple denial will always result in the top policy in the deck being enacted. And there are not enough liberal cards even in the deck to do anthing else.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - FASCISTS WIN

Post by HPD » Thu May 26, 2016 4:50 am

And no executive action is taken if there is a triple denial of government. It's just skipped, so there would not be a second kill. All the more reason for each and every fascist to deny everything from this point on. There was no point in seeing this play out in what could take like two more weeks without any other possible result than an eventual Fascist victory. So that's why I called it.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - FASCISTS WIN

Post by HPD » Thu May 26, 2016 4:57 am

Plus, they can just openly declare in topic that they are fascists and that both Terr and Dragonite saw a liberal card dropped. They know there is only one liberal card left in the deck, making it literally impossible even for the liberals to win by sheer luck.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - FASCISTS WIN

Post by Dragonite » Thu May 26, 2016 7:54 am

Looking for HPD's assessment tactics are indeed difficult. It might be mafia. We both tried playing the liberal game until we either had no choice or could backstab. Do note Terr eventually won because he as fascist got the valued assignation policy handled on a silver platter, that would've have happened if he wasn't in Linky's good graces.

This all could have turned sour for us had anyone else been elected president though. The general conclusion I'm seeing is that as a fascist you should always be aggressive pushing fascist policies if you're in a position to hide it. The way the cards are reshuffled it might be harder to spot if anything doesn't add up then I thought at first.

Is there a single golden tactic for fascist and liberal to take, or are both ways valid? I thought we had the game under control until I kind of wussed out after Linky discovered the truth. The difficulty of the final liberal draws makes it easy to sabotage from that point on.

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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - FASCISTS WIN

Post by HPD » Thu May 26, 2016 8:09 am

I don't think that there is a dominant strategy to follow in every situation. I guess it depends on your personal strengths, the number of players in the game, etcetera. What you guys sort of failed to do this game, was trying to maneuver Hitler around. You basically ignored him altogether. Like I said, Terr could've set Hawke up to get the inspection immediately on round two. That would've been a powerful move. Furthermore, no attempt was made to put Hitler in the good graces of the Liberals. Instead you all played like Hitler should have. I'm not sure if that is such a good idea.

But then again, the comeback mechanism of the depleting deck worked really well for the Fascist side. Plus, they got themselves elected in office very often. I personally would've played a lot more aggressively, but hey. You won.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - President Executing Player

Post by Pkdragon » Thu May 26, 2016 8:25 am

Pkdragon wrote:
The fact that you haven't already killed someone gives me a lot of hope- unless you're overly sadistic you have no reason to pretend at this point, so I'm pretty sure we got screwed on our draw. I'm going to continue onwards assuming you are liberal because if you aren't we are already dead anyway.
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HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - FASCISTS WIN

Post by Pkdragon » Thu May 26, 2016 9:00 am

This game was extremely nasty on liberals, to be honest. With a little less than half of the players being fascist, and a small enough liberal card pool by the endgame, the only way the liberals could have won was to find all the other liberals and basically pass each other the ball, letting no one else even play the damn game, and even then the chance of getting a triple fascist draw was way too high. Finding all other liberals was also basically impossible with a fascist team that actually tried to blend in (unlike the glorious narts/pk/dragonite war). One fascist being involved with any draw was enough to be seriously disruptive, due to the extremely low probability of getting double liberals, much less triple liberals.
Dragonite wrote:Do note Terr eventually won because he as fascist got the valued assignation policy handled on a silver platter, that would've have happened if he wasn't in Linky's good graces.
To be honest, even if Terr had been a liberal, there were so many ways we could have lost just by the nature of the game itself. If we had killed Bonesy instead of Hawke, the game would have been over. If we had killed you, Dragonite, the game still would continue but then we'd have to go through the gauntlet again, albeit with slightly better odds. I mean, if he had been liberal we would have been in a decent place because as it turned out there WAS a liberal card that would have been played and we could force a double Terr election, though if Linkman had been the hidden fascist we'd still be screwed hard, and there's still the chance of getting a triple fascist outcome. The only saving grace was that high chance of killing Hawkes.

But yes, Terr did a ballsy move (that ultimately was less counter-productive to his goal than I thought due to each liberal card played in the first half removing a liberal card from the second half), and that won him the game.

We did drop the ball when it came to trusting ML, our only investigated target, but when Dragonite was clearly guilty. Bonesy sadly inactive and his votes mostly "Nein", and ML himself hadn't posted much at all either, it was really hard to throw the fate of the game into his hands. Terr genuinely looked like a better choice for president. But yes, I'll go with THAT as the real thing that lost us the game. We had exactly one piece of information and we discarded it because one of the messengers looked unreliable.

I'm done with this game for now, though- too evil for me.
HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - FASCISTS WIN

Post by Linkman » Thu May 26, 2016 1:12 pm

HPD wrote:Ok, so the fascists know the other fascists are and who Hitler is, but Hitler only doesn't know who the other fascists are.
Is this true? Why? I thought everyone went in blind.
"everytime I try to draw xen I end up drawing a kangaroo smoking a cigar while chainsawing a tree" - Deoxy
"I can't believe I'm the only person who voted Stallone. His appeal lies in watching is movies again and again just to hear what the hell he's talking about." - Kilteh

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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - FASCISTS WIN

Post by hawkesnightmare » Thu May 26, 2016 1:45 pm

Nope, only the liberals and myself didn't know who everyone was. That may be something to consider if there is a next game, since it will give the liberals a good chance, however PMs would likely also need to be allowed to give the fascists a way to seek out their brethren aside from analyzing post style.
daisy: If the UK is worse than the present #5 in the world in terms of GDP come July 1st 2018 I will dye my hair pink.

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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - FASCISTS WIN

Post by HPD » Thu May 26, 2016 2:21 pm

If you allow PMs, the first thing that happens is that the fascists will contact Hitler to inform him who the fascists are. That instantly removes a core element in the game and helps fascists even more.

As far as I can tell, this game is extremely tough on liberals even when played irl. The only difference is that you might be able to deduce something from non verbal signals.

Maybe we should get rid of the idea of a 'deck' and just work with fixed probabilities? That way there would be no comeback mechanism that favours fascists. And perhaps work with a smaller number of fascist players.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
"My motto is that there are far too many women in the world to waste time with men." - thefalman
"It's just that I'm not really aware of how a common conversation goes." - Imano Ob, talking on MSN about talking on MSN
"As for FE8, that was IS' variant of Man Spam - Dudes with Swords edition." - Xenesis

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Pkdragon
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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - FASCISTS WIN

Post by Pkdragon » Thu May 26, 2016 11:08 pm

Linkman wrote:
HPD wrote:Ok, so the fascists know the other fascists are and who Hitler is, but Hitler only doesn't know who the other fascists are.
Is this true? Why? I thought everyone went in blind.
I thought so too at first, that was why I investigated a fellow fascist not knowing I was putting a fascist on the spot last game <_<
HPD wrote:You know the only thing on the agenda of the Squirtle Squad is pure, unadulterated chaos.

That, and watching Euros squirm.

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Terragent
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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - FASCISTS WIN

Post by Terragent » Thu May 26, 2016 11:20 pm

The rules are pretty straightforward: Liberals and Hitler have no knowledge, the non-Hitler Fascists know each other and also know who Hitler is.

I perhaps played it a bit too safe on the first turn, but tbh I didn't realise how easy it would be to just lie with "oh too bad triple fascist draw" and panicked a little. The trust paid off in the end, but as HPD said it would probably have been smarter to realise that Hitler was up next and would get a chance to inspect people.

The biggest problem with this specific setup was that the Fascists would win instantly if a Liberal got executed (one more player would have made it 2 fascists, hitler and 5 liberals, which would have been less catastrophic). Maybe just a tweak for tied votes (ie, President gets the casting vote or the reverse)? Because yeah otherwise it's unwinnable for the Liberals since they have no means to fight back.

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Dragonite
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Re: SECRET HITLER 2 - FASCISTS WIN

Post by Dragonite » Thu May 26, 2016 11:40 pm

What do the official rules recommend? A game with 7 players is tricky to balance. It may be best to go for games with a even amount of players, so that fascists can be balanced to not instantly give them majority upon a kill.

I'm hoping next time I can be a good guy though. It's hard pretending something you've never truly experienced.I remember having that problem in my early mafia games.

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