Balancing AW1

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Mark999
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Balancing AW1

Post by Mark999 » Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:56 am

Well, we know enough about the AW1 ROM that we can do a balance hack of AW1, so I though I'd ask, how can we balance AW1? Well, here are some changes I have in mind:

Grit: Take off his +1 indirect range, obviously.
Max: Decrease his attack power by 25 or so.
Sami: Take off her +1 transport movement. I also have this in mind: What if her capture rate was +25% D2D and +50% during her COP?
Nell: I want to take off her D2D luck bonus. Likely unnecessary but we'll see.
Sturm: Should I even bother with him?
Sonja: I want to buff her somehow so that she has some use outside FOW. Not sure how.

The rest of the COs, I don't have problems with. Anyone got any input on this?

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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Dragonite » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:06 am

sonja can be buffed using aw2 as a lead I think.

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Sven

Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Sven » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:22 am

No one plays AW1, the information on AW1 theory is just whatever the current relevant metagame is experiencing.

Since no one plays now, I'd like to say AW1 is crumpets, terrible, and pointless.

I'm still strangely intrigued.

Andy: COP Boost
Max: 120/100
Sami: Fine
Nell: Fine
Olaf: COP Boost
Grit: Fine
Kanbei: Fine
Sonja: D2D/COP
Eagle: Fine
Drake: Fine
Sturm: Fine

Until people actually play it, you don't really need to change anyone other then Andy/Max/Olaf/Sonja.

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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by HPD » Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:36 am

Guess Sven just saved you a lot of work :)

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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Sven » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:14 am

I would love to see a way to have both Campaign and Non-Campaign Sturm playable on the same cart in vs. mode.

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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Xenesis » Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:40 pm

If they've done it the same way as in AW2, I'd imagine it would just involve finding the CO List for Vs.

It affects what COs appear and in what order. My bet is that it'll be an extremely simple hack once I get some free time. :P
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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by HPD » Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:05 am

Then make one Sturm a palette swap of the other or something. Green smoke ftw?
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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Linkman » Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:23 am

Grit's day-to-day is underpowered, and his Power is too strong.

Kanbei's Morale Boost is too expensive for him. Either boost it or make it cheaper.

Sturm's overpowered. Take away the free movement or make his attack/defense fairer.

Max, Sonja and Olaf have pretty obvious fixes.

Not that I'd really care. If balacing means making Grit and Sonja not Grit and Sonja, then I'll stick with the inbalances. It's not like I play multiplayer.
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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Xenesis » Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:30 am

HPD wrote:Then make one Sturm a palette swap of the other or something. Green smoke ftw?
That should be even simpler. :P
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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by HPD » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:05 am

I try to be realistic <_<
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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Bog » Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:01 am

Just give it all of the AW2 balance hack stats.

Done.

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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:55 am

Rexi wrote:Just give it all of the AW2 balance hack stats.

Done.
That would be the fastest solution. For some reason I thought we had an AW1 hack...
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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by RadioShadow » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:26 am

^ One user found some AW1 CO data. No balance has been made however.

The only AW1 Hack is the one I made which uses the Japanese CO sprites.
Image

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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Tronn_Bonne » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:07 am

Ah. I knew there was some kind of AW1 hack out there.
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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Terragent » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:04 pm

The thing is that the AW2 balance hack was designed to work in, well, AW2. AW1 has a considerably different play mechanic with the different power charging, lack of neotanks and SCOPs, different damage formula and smaller CO lineup. Just slapping the balance-hacked AW2 CO stats into AW1 will not balance things out.

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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Sven » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:15 am

not as if the aw2 balance hack would work

aw1 style thinking is probably at the "month after game was bought" stage
aw2 style is maybe 6 months in
awds style is maybe a month in
dor style is ongoing

simply not enough time developed actually playing the game high level, not enough drama, not enough people complaining about imbalanced maps and COs, etc.

everything complaining wise is about AWBW.

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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by newperson » Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:09 am

I know I'm reviving a really old topic, but I'm currently working on an AW1 Balance Hack. If anyone cares, I'd like to reopen this discussion. If no one does, please lock this.

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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by donnytondesterkste » Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:35 am

Great! Are you taking most of the stuff from the AW2 balance hack or are you coming up with your own stats?
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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by newperson » Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:37 pm

I took a few things from the AW2 balance hack that I liked (that could also easily be applied), but a lot of it is different. Most of the basic CO/unit hacks are done, because I can hex edit those easily. However, I intend to put everything together into one hack, so I'm mostly now working on making Campaign, War Room, and VS Maps harder or up to metagame (or my own) standards. Of course, there's a few ASM hacks in mind, mostly as icing on the cake for unit balance, but that's last since I only started teaching myself ASM a few months ago (and that was MIPS so I still have some studying to do on the specific ASM type used in the GBA). If you all want, I can split each one of the above up as separate IPS patches.

Changes thus far:

COs

Andy's COP gained +1 Move to vehicles and he gained a D2D power of 50% repair costs.

Max's 2D2 was reduced to 130/100. His COP is 160/100 at +1 Move to vehicles. His power cost was increased to 35k.

Sami's troops have impaired movement in snow, even during COP. She gained 100/110 transports. Sami's infantry consume 2 less fuel per turn (more on this later). This may not be enough, but it seems fine for now.

Nell was unchanged. This may not be enough, but I haven't done much testing on her yet.

Olaf gained a 2D2 10% chance of causing snow. His COP is from Xen's hack (110/130 units + 1 turn of snow).

Grit gained 100/100 infantry and 130/100 indirects with normal (instead of +1 range). His COP gives him 160/100 indirects with +3 range, but it now costs 40k. He seems a bit weak now, though, so I might increase the power of his infantry further (since he is a marksman).

Kanbei is the same except his power now costs 40k.

Sonja was overhauled:
1) Her recon, missile, and sub units have innate 1 defense star and are 120/120. When she activates her COP, they gain 5 defense stars (this is the maximum in AW1).
2) Her indirect units (except missiles) cost 2k less (more on this later). With her COP, they gain +1 range.
3) She has 25/0 with COP and 25/15 D2D.
4) Her infantry and mechs capture at 5/4 normal rate.

Drake:
He now has a 20% chance of triggering rain between turns. All his non-air units gain +1 vision to offset this. With his COP, his units become 120/120. His COP was lowered to 30k, which may be a little too low.

Eagle:
Only his infantry, mech, bombers, fighters, and dived subs have D2D fuel costs of 5, 5, 3, 3, and 4 respectively. All others consume none. (More on this later)

VS Sturm:
His repair costs are 120% normal cost, but his power cost was downgraded to 40k. The D2D costs may not be high enough, though.

Campaign Sturm:
Purists may complain, but he's now worse than his AW2 broken counterpart: 130/120 stats on top of everything else. Fortunately, you can't get him and the AI is a complete idiot.

Units

1) All infantry will eat 5 rations between turns. All direct combat tanks (AA, tank, Md. Tank) will spend 1 fuel between turn. Units who run out of food die of starvation, but can now be deployed from seaports (mostly to stop the submerged sub barricade over seaports and make the starvation code work right...I may ASM this away later).

2) Artillery now cost 10k. There's no way around this; at 6k, choke points were too easy to hold (in 2v2) and the game revolved around who could force the other guy to break. AW should not be a WWI simulation.

3) AA now cost 10k. These units made missiles useless and pretty much made B-Copters and Fighters run away, even when both units costed more.

4) Missiles now cost 8k.

5) Md. tanks now cost 15k and gained 100% effectiveness against B and T-Copters.

6) Rockets cost 16k.

7) Fighters gained the ability to bomb heavy ground and sea targets. This means 55% vs. B-Ships and Md. Tanks, 100% vs. Indirects, but only 15% against most everything else on ground or in the sea, and 0% vs. infantry or subs.

8) Bombers gained the ability to paradrop units like a lander. I may consider increasing its cost, making a special unit called the Cargo Plane, or inserting some ASM code later about only being to carry units when bombs = 0 (with a temporary
maximum being set to 0 upon APC resupply), but this should do for now. However, the alternate idea would be to boost T-Copter and Lander.

9) Cruisers now cost 20k, but can move onto shoals and fire against land units and other sea units. This is intended to stop the stalemates on sea maps with shoal blocking.
Missile damage = tank cannon damage except vs. fellow cruisers (55%)
Vulcan Cannon damage = AA damage
This may still not be enough. I may make them and landers function as rivercraft as well, or make some modifications to the unloading process.

10) Submarines now cost 18k. Otherwise unchanged, though Xen's hacks about being able to dive and attack on the same turn look rather nice.

The only losers (when compared to the original) I see out of this process (other than indirects) are copters and landers, and that's mostly because of the paradrop bomber and boosted cruiser/Md. Tank. Any ideas on boosting those units?

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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Bog » Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:54 pm

Max is still OP.

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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by donnytondesterkste » Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:30 pm

You seem to have "overbalanced" the game--many of the elements broken in one direction are now broken in another.

I don't understand Sonja. 25/0...attack/defense? And she's just going to spam artillery. Drake's COP is highly overpowered, since it's the only mass damage COP in the game (unless you added damage to Olaf's). Make campaign Sturm = AW2 Sturm (120/120, super-expensive COP). Artillery are way too expensive now. You couldn't pick a happy medium, like 8000? For AA the AW2 balance hack works best. Same prices, but the AA is much weaker versus copters, and missiles get 3-6 range. Md. Tanks don't need the copter boost--they were fine units to begin with, now you've made them broken. The bcopter's effectiveness against Md. Tanks was one of its main features! Fighters don't need to be able to attack ground units. Bombers don't need to load units either.

I'd really recommend sticking with the AW2 balance hack mostly. Your hack seems to just throw on extra functions to every CO and unit without regard to whether they add to the game. Maybe you believe the game needs such an overhaul, but for BALANCE, I'd say stick with minor adjustments instead of gamebreaking ones. Keep up the good work though.
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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Bog » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:12 am

Tbqh AW1 is already pretty balanced apart from Max and maybe Grit.

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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by ThunderWalker » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:03 am

Bog wrote:Tbqh AW1 is already pretty balanced apart from Max and maybe Grit.
Sonja, Andy and Olaf are considered underpowered, while Sami (+1 transport movement) and Nell (too much luck D2D) are considered somewhat overpowered as well.

Unit balance in AW1 is fine... altough I should place Md Tanks closer to their normal tank counterparts - more like in AWDoR.
Probably +1 Missile range and increased Cruiser defense vs Air units as well, and maybe weaker def for Infantry units.
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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by donnytondesterkste » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:31 am

AW1 was pretty bad in balance...it didn't even have tiers. Certain COs just bashed everything while other COs were useless. What COs were balanced? Perhaps Drake...Versus Sturm...and Kanbei?
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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Bog » Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:33 am

Andy. Olaf.

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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Dragon Fogel » Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:42 am

I think we'd rather not have the standard for balance be "bland CO with mediocre powers".
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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Bog » Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:46 am

Disclaimer: I haven't played an AW game in about a year, and I haven't been seriously into AW for 2+ years.

Olaf's COP is underrated. It slows down your opponents units to such a degree it can easily eliminate FTA. Andy... ok I see your point. But Olaf is underrated.

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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Xenesis » Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:41 am

I'm really not sure that copters needed that heavy handed a nerf. Making tanks better against them is :/, considering how they're generally an anti-tank unit.

But the thing I'm going to say about most of the changes is that they're a bit....all over the place. With all those changes to units...their roles are very blurry, to say the least.
10) Submarines now cost 18k. Otherwise unchanged, though Xen's hacks about being able to dive and attack on the same turn look rather nice.
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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Linkman » Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:12 pm

I'd say having fuel costs on infantry would be an interesting way of nerfing and hopefully eliminating meatshielding, but then all you gotta do is join them...

10k artillery seems a bit excessive. But my balance sense is all off anyways.
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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Sven » Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:46 pm

oh no i might actually use an APC to ferry mechs up while i use purely tanks/inf/mech because artillery are stupidly priced.

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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Bog » Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:08 am

Arties should be bumped up to 7000.

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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by donnytondesterkste » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:28 am

We could probably debate the "ideal" cost all day long...
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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by Bog » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:52 am

I think it'd be fair to say that Arties are about as useful situationally as Tanks. Therefore it makes about just as much sense to make them the same price.

It'd make Grit slightly more balanced for kick off.

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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by donnytondesterkste » Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:44 am

Usefulness doesn't dictate price, it's really just power. Mechs are possibly the most useful unit, but they're cheap because individually they're weak. Artillery are similar in that they're individually weak, but unfortunately in groups, artillery are far more powerful than tank groups, which leads to spammage.

I think 7000 is probably a good price point though, because you no longer can say "instead of buying a tank I will buy a cost effective infantry+artillery". Maybe even 7500 would work.
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Re: Balancing AW1

Post by PKNintendo » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:22 am

Sven wrote:No one plays AW1, the information on AW1 theory is just whatever the current relevant metagame is experiencing.

Since no one plays now, I'd like to say AW1 is crumpets, terrible, and pointless.

I'm still strangely intrigued.

Andy: COP Boost
Max: 120/100
Sami: Fine
Nell: Fine
Olaf: COP Boost
Grit: Fine
Kanbei: Fine
Sonja: D2D/COP
Eagle: Fine
Drake: Fine
Sturm: Fine

Until people actually play it, you don't really need to change anyone other then Andy/Max/Olaf/Sonja.
Mostly this. I heavily disagree with newperson's changelist.

Consider
Andy: COP is identical to his SCOP from AWDS but with 3HP instead of 5(3HP, 30%firepower & 10%defense boost, +1 movement)

Sonja: Xen's changes from the AW2 balance hack
D2D: Bad luck is reduced to 5%, units have Counter attacks are at 120% firepower
COP:Causes Fog of War for one day
- Vision Range is increased by 2 spaces
- Units can see into Reefs and Forests
- All units gain +10% Offence (110%)
- All units gain +10% Defence (110%)

Olaf: COP=SCOP from AWDS

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