Luck and Damage in AW1

The board for discussing the retro, the golden oldies. Debate and discuss all.
User avatar
-STL-

Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by -STL- » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:03 am

Ok this is my position:

I started to capture Grit´s HQ with Max´s Inf, Grit has an Battleship in range and his COP charged, i have a Sub to attack it.
The base dmg is 82%, but i tried 50 times already and wasn´t able to set it to 1HP, then i tried it against Sami´s BS in VS Mode and did it in few tries to 1HP.
First question is: Does Grit has a better luck defense for his Indirects?
Then i ended the day and let Grit´s 2HP BS attack my Inf
He has 165 Atttack, i have 140 Def and Base dmg BS on Inf is 95%
0,2*1,65*0,6*95%= 18,81% , so even with max luck 0,2*0,6*9%= 1,08% he can´t do 2HP dmg, but he always did...
Second Question: Is damage rounded up in AW1? So if u do 19,1% dmg u do 20%?

Do i have a chance to finish capturing Grit´s HQ the next day?

User avatar
Xenesis
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Hydrocarbon Inspector
3DS Code: 2535-4646-7163
Location: 0x020232DD

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by Xenesis » Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:16 am

Can't help with the first question and last question, I don't know the specifics. You'll have to wait for someone like Fogel who is good at abusing the RNG.

As for the second question, it doesn't "round up", but the game seems to have an absurdly high chance of pulling the 10 out of the RNG. You will see 91% OHK far more than should be statistically possible. The RNG in AW1 is incredibly wonky.
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

User avatar
-STL-

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by -STL- » Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:28 am

Ok after some more testing i did 9 HP dmg with my Max Sub to Grit´s BS in VS Mode, but i still can´t do in the Campaign Map, i´m talking about History Lesson AC, if i turn on the Animation it looks like i always get a luck of 0.

User avatar
Dragon Fogel
Tri-Star CO
Tri-Star CO
Rank: Destroyer of Spambots

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by Dragon Fogel » Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:30 am

For the first question, all I can say is, while it's possible to get different luck values for an attack from the same save/savestate, it seems to be much less likely than in the later games. The value doesn't seem to change as often. Generally, I've found that if I savestate right before an attack, I need to try more often to get 1 extra damage than I would with an equivalent savestate in AW2.

As for the battleship issue, I think terrain defense might not actually help against luck in AW1. I'm not 100% sure on that, though.
Dragon Fogel,
Marquis Elmdor's Arch-Nemesis

Don't call me "Dragon".

WWN's War Room High Scores: http://www.celestialbridge.net/fogel/aw ... scores.txt
AW1 version: http://www.celestialbridge.net/fogel/aw ... scores.txt

User avatar
-STL-

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by -STL- » Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:51 am

It´s really like IS don´t want u to finish History Lesson with 999 points, i yielded and played again several times but it never changes anything...
I really have the feeling that i always get min luck and Grit alway max luck in this Level. Srsly.
The only thing i figured from some test is that Kanbei has 2 defensive Stats,
The damage he takes is: Attack*0,8 (his 120 Def)*Terrain Def
So if his Unit has full HP he has 128 Def on Plains, 136 on Woods 144 on City and 152 on Mountain/HQ, way more balanced as the later game imo.

Translucent Air

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by Translucent Air » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:01 am

Is this the normal Campaign mode? MJEmirzian already has a solution in his FAQ that appears to have solutions for both versions in 5 days. So, the game probably isn't working against you in that sense.

However, in the regular Campaign, you can actually rout all of Grit's forces in the same minimum time.

As Dragon Fogel said, using the same save files constrains the RNG, so it's best to save at the beginning of the day if you absolutely must save. (This is likely stated somewhere in my own AW2 guide.) That said, I'm sorry I can't be of much help concerning your specific luck questions.

User avatar
-STL-

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by -STL- » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:09 am

I´m talking about a 4 day HQ Capture in the AC. Only this 2HP Battleship is preventing me from this, if i could success this i would most-likely get a 992 or 993 overall Campaign rank.

Translucent Air

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by Translucent Air » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:20 am

I see. Unfortunately, I don't remember which levels in Advance Campaign are "impossible to 999-pt. S-Rank" and MJEmirizian's FAQ was never specific about the score details (in large part due to AW1 not providing easy readability). I'll try and take a look at it myself if I have time; in the meantime, best of luck to you in your goal.

User avatar
-STL-

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by -STL- » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:34 am

The imperfect levels are

It´s War 6/5

Andy´s path:
Max Strikes with Andy 6/5
Olaf´s Navy 6/5

Max´s path:
Sniper! 5/4
History Lesson! 5/4

Kanbei Arrives! 5/4
Mighty Kanbei 7/6

The current 991 takes Andy´s path, cause finishing a 5 day limit in 6 days gives a higher score then a 4 day limit in 5 days.

Translucent Air

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by Translucent Air » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:49 am

All right, I've had a chance to review the level, though I haven't quite figured out your full capture scheme.

I'm unfortunately going to say that it will be nigh impossible to achieve the 4-day win. Since you only have that one sub to attack that battleship, 82% is the best you can do. Sadly, I believe the natural/Versus luck RNG is not applicable to Field Training and (Advance) Campaign. I remember encountering this issue before, with a Field Training mission that would have ended one day earlier should the kill have succeeded (it may even have been Troop Orders). You really can't depend on raw theoretical values and must be able to attack with extreme prejudice.

So, yes, in this particular case, IS may be working against you.

User avatar
-STL-

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by -STL- » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:56 am

But u can do 95% OHKOs in Dogfights f.e. and i remember doing luck damage in other Campaign missions.

Translucent Air

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by Translucent Air » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:00 am

Yes, that is true. However, that 5% may meet the required (stricter) threshold.

There still is a luck RNG involved in Field Training and Campaign, but it is likely not the same as the Versus luck RNG from my past experience.

User avatar
-STL-

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by -STL- » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:04 am

That can´t be all.
Just played Max Strikes! NC
MD on MD 82% 9 HP dmg!
Sub on BS aswell!

Translucent Air

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by Translucent Air » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:14 am

Without actual knowledge of the game coding, I can't make any definitive statements; I can only give anecdotal accounts.

That said, I have experienced accounts where apparently no amount of saving/resetting or lack thereof would change the result. The best I can say is that I believe the luck RNG will be unnaturally constrained in particular instances and that those cases are not necessarily universal.

Regardless of what I've said, you're welcome to continue trying, especially since you've encountered your desired sub vs. battleship case.

User avatar
-STL-

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by -STL- » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:50 am

Translucent Air wrote:The best I can say is that I believe the luck RNG will be unnaturally constrained in particular instances and that those cases are not necessarily universal.
That seems to hold up, oddly attacking a Cruiser with ur Subs seems to give u lots of extra luck, i get the feeling that "bad" attacks give u extra luck while "good" don´t. I got 5HP dmg with my 6HP Sub on BS (49%) so it´s at least more then nothing.

Translucent Air

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by Translucent Air » Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:49 am

Just to be clear and definitively crunch the numbers for you:
-STL- wrote:Ok this is my position:

I started to capture Grit´s HQ with Max´s Inf, Grit has an Battleship in range and his COP charged, i have a Sub to attack it.
The base dmg is 82%, but i tried 50 times already and wasn´t able to set it to 1HP, then i tried it against Sami´s BS in VS Mode and did it in few tries to 1HP.
First question is: Does Grit has a better luck defense for his Indirects?
Then i ended the day and let Grit´s 2HP BS attack my Inf
He has 165 Atttack, i have 140 Def and Base dmg BS on Inf is 95%
0,2*1,65*0,6*95%= 18,81% , so even with max luck 0,2*0,6*9%= 1,08% he can´t do 2HP dmg, but he always did...
Second Question: Is damage rounded up in AW1? So if u do 19,1% dmg u do 20%?

Do i have a chance to finish capturing Grit´s HQ the next day?
With Grit doing a displayed damage of 18% with a 2HP battleship under his CO Power, there would be ideally an ~80% chance that he will do 2HP worth of damage. He must do at least 1HP of damage and will most likely do 2HP of damage. So, if the battleship remains with 2HP, you will not achieve the 4-day capture. If somehow you were able to bring the battleship down to 1HP, his displayed damage would be 9%, so you would only have a small ~10% fighting chance of him not damaging your infantry.

This, of course, ignores the general luck resistance that we've been discussing in prior posts.

User avatar
-STL-

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by -STL- » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:15 am

So u think Attackers HP are irrevelant in AW1 for the luck damage unlike into the other AW games?

Translucent Air

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by Translucent Air » Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:19 am

I don't think that's quite how luck is supposed to work. Just because the attacker has only 2HP, it does not mean that its probability goes from 80% to knock off the extra HP (due to the 8% in the 18%) down all the way to your calculated 1.08%, if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly. (That 1.08% is almost certainly too low if that is indeed what you're stating.) That 8% of the 18% from in-game displayed damage should still be the strongest and most prominent indicator of "luck."

Also, Mighty Kanbei! in Advance Campaign has been perfected in 6 days; check MJEmirzian's FAQ for a version using Sami. I have also recently done it in 6 days with Andy and Max, using their unique CO Powers to gain distinct personalized advantages as well.

User avatar
-STL-

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by -STL- » Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:51 am

Sry Mighty Kanbei was a mistake then, i´m not totally sure but i think i ran through 5 imperfect level.

And u r right in AW1 even a 1HP Unit has their full luck, while in AWDS luck is multiplied with Attacker´s HP (and Defender´s Defense).
In AWDS this BS would only have 1,08% max luck.

Translucent Air

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by Translucent Air » Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:04 am

I'm frankly rather surprised to learn that this is the case for even AWDS and/or AW2, but a few quick and dirty tests in both games seem to support the case. I have pretty much always relied on the generalization that the tens units in the damage percentage value directly corresponded to the probability of doing an extra HP of damage.

I guess I simply haven't done enough attacking with very low HP units.

User avatar
ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:49 am

to add on the infamy: NC Kanbei's Error? could be won by day5 with Sami, but Kanbei's AA ALWAYS makes 7HP damage on your HQ capturing Inf, Kanbei's attack being 67%

edit: no, in the 5 days win I just got I don't rely on luck, COP is used to raise Def, that AA will seriously always make 7HP damage without it
Last edited by ALAKTORN on Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:10 am

THIS GAME IS RIGGED http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5221/rigged.jpg


NOTICE HOW THE 3HP SAMI FIGHTER MADE 0HP COUNTER DAMAGE TO KANBEI'S FIGHTER, BASE DAMAGE IS 11%!!!!!! HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE????

edit: it happened again.

edit2: it's not even a rare occurance.

User avatar
Kireato

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by Kireato » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:34 am

I don't think anything is rigged especially for the campaign. You'll observe similar behaviour outside.

Another example is Andy tank versus Max tank on roads. Match-up often results in 7-5 (can it result in anything else, actually?), yet Max's tank attack is 41%.

So, it's an issue specific to the calculation of counter damage. There might be a forced drop of firepower or just something else that's screwed up and it doesn't register the last HP even though it's gone. (That is, Andy's tank truly only has 5X/100 HP, but the counter out of 10 didn't do the last drop from 7 to 6 HP.)
Image
"Hey, it's the Kir. Wee." - Linkman 145
"I can't help myself sometimes... :cry:" -Help Topic Guest

User avatar
ALAKTORN
Location: Italy

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by ALAKTORN » Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:05 pm

another thing is that Kanbei's Fighter has 66% on Sami's Fighter, but almost never it keeps 4HP, I got it only twice out of many many tries (while in Vs mode I got 4HP twice out of 3 tries, by playing myself both P1 and P2), the thing I'm getting from this is that the AI always has high luck, it can't have bad luck :/ though this should be tested with lower attacks

edit: I've tested your Tank on Tank thing with 50 attacks, results: first 10 attacks brought Max's Tanks down to 4HP, he dealt 3HP damage with 32% in the counter 7 times, which means he dealt only 2HP damage (remember with 32% counter) 3 times; then he got 4 Tanks to 5HP, which all dealt 3HP counter damage, with 41%; then more 4HPs 2 of them that dealt the normal 3HP counter; then more 5HP who only dealt 3HP damage (never got 4HP damage); then some more 8-4 and 7-4

in synthesis: 5HP Max Tank counter (41%) never dealt 4HP damage, only 3, and 4HP counter often dealt only 2HP damage, with 32%, we're clearly missing something about counter attacks

something strange: turning visuals on, the 7HP Tanks actually seem to have 7XHPs, which would mean a visual of 8HP... and 8HP are the same, always 7XHPs, they only appear to have slightly more HP (as in, 7HP Tanks have 72~HP while 8HP Tanks have 76~HP)

and 1HP counter don't seem to deal any damage, my visual 70HP Tanks still keep 70HP, while Max's 1HP Tank attack is 8%; obviously, if I use one of these 1HP Tanks to attack a 7HP Tank which hasn't re-attacked yet, it goes down to 6HP pretty easily

newperson

Re: Luck and Damage in AW1

Post by newperson » Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:01 pm

Sorry for reviving the topic, but I tend to play with visuals on.

With it, there's a few things of note from my experience:
1) For every HP number, there are 2 bars; one with slightly more HP than the other.
2) Two of the same unit with the same HP number, but a varying HP bar will deal slightly different damage (the slightly more injured unit will be less likely to round up).
3) For the same HP, the more injured unit is more likely to take rounded up enemy attack damage. I've seen 8% deal equivalent of 1 HP damage, even 2 HP damage to certain units, while dealing 0 to others.
4) Counterattacks seem to ignore luck altogether. Attackers (taking counterattack damage) usually accumulate damage (i.e. round up) only if their HP is of the lesser type.
5) Luck seems to be less of a factor (though it still exists) on certain Campaign missions (like the example below) and many of the earlier Field Training missions. I've looked at some of the battle scripts, but nothing comes to mind as particularly striking.
6) Not explicitly related to luck, but if someone activates a power that increases defense (by the 10% default), any unit that previously would have attacked for <10% damage is not even allowed to deal 0% damage, but is forced to not attack the target at all. Found this out when testing Nell tanks and infantry vs. battleships and Md. tanks, respectively.

Example:
Kanbei's Error HC
Against a 3 HP B-Copter, my 10 HP infantry on a city did 5% damage with Max (with COP). This reduced enemy HP by 1 every time I loaded that save state.
Next, against the 2 HP B-Copter, my 5 HP infantry on a plains did 2% damage with Max (with COP). As above, this reduced the Copter's HP to 1.
Against the 1 HP B-Copter, my 6 HP infantry in a forest did 3% damage with Max (with COP). If I chose to attack, this never destroyed the Copter, but would wound the Copter to a sliver of HP. Thus, when it attacked my infantry capturing an airport, it was destroyed on the 5% counter. If I did not make the 3% damage attack, my capturing infantry could never finish the Copter.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Multivac [Bot] and 0 guests