Anyone want to battle?

The board for competitive Advance Wars battling.
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DTaeKim
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Post by DTaeKim » Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:57 pm

Yay for Rain.
What can change the nature of a man?

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Sven

Post by Sven » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:21 pm

BS BS BS BS BS

oh come on

i'd kill your neighbour if i was you

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DTaeKim
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Post by DTaeKim » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:21 pm

Goddammit. I was disconnected! That blows.

Want to do a post-game analysis? In the meantime, I'm going to set up a map trade group.
What can change the nature of a man?

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Sven

Post by Sven » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:23 pm

That seriously could have dragged on for ages more.

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GaoGaoStegosaurus
Location: La La Land

Post by GaoGaoStegosaurus » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:25 pm

Damn, that sucks. Was either one of you about to gain some grounds, or was it just perpetual stalemate at the time of the disc? :?
Last edited by GaoGaoStegosaurus on Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AWDoR FC: 077433-428775

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"Dimensional index rising, nonlinear oscillator producing fluid bifur...BOOM!" - Penny

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DTaeKim
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Post by DTaeKim » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:26 pm

I agree. After thirty-three days, I think there could have been another ten or twenty days of cat-and-mouse battles.

I have no idea what you had on the western front, but every time I tried to push forward, something nailed my units and I had to pull back.

I think my B-copters were starting to take the western island, but you may have built a Anti-Air or Missile to deter that force.

On the eastern island, I was sending my Bomber and I was going to use your units to charge my COP again. I was planning to build another B-ship.

On the eastern front, I was going to swat your Duster out of the sky with my Fighter, recapture that one city, then create a wall of units.

My goal was to cut your forces in half, then capture the western front while establishing myself in the center area.

I recall seeing Brenner in a Tank unit, but I could be wrong. I think my powers helped me tremendously, especially when Penny summoned Rain. I think placing Brenner in a Flare unit on accident hurt you early on. I was wondering where he was for half the battle.
What can change the nature of a man?

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Sven

Post by Sven » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:35 pm

POST GAME:

The first thing that must be said is that for practical reasons, do not play large maps in the fog. DTaeKim and I must have been playing for a good two hours straight, and while he had the upper hand, it probably wouldn't have been a done deal for at least another hour, he seems to be rather stingy with the infantry money.

I screwed up by building my CO by accident in a flare on my HQ that was just doing constant scouting duties. As a result, I never really had a serious chance at taking the game, especially not when I had to deal with powers, but had no chance of activating my own.

Speaking of Penny's powers, you can work through them, it's just a massive bitch to do so. You're definitely not going to be getting the same results you would on a clear day. It definitely ups the amount of concentration needed to pull off those turns.

Dizziness as a map is quite good, I just need to make sure that the FTA counter version is used. The map is definitely more appropriate for non-fog than fog. A smaller x0 map will definitely be chosen for fog over Dizziness in the future.

In terms of unit variety, not much to note really, though surprisingly, we had far more of a sea battle then we did an air one. DTaeKim enjoys using transports far more then I, though it did give him good results in that he had access to some areas far earlier then I did.

He also had a good ability to pinpoint exactly where all the action would take place, and so he would assign his CO unit accordingly. The player that is confident in using his CO to take the fight to the opponent will win the match. It was like that in every other AW game, but even moreso with DoR. In the previous games, killing too many units would activate your opponent's power, almost as a penalty. Now, well, you need to kill the enemy units to get your power. The power is a reward for good play, not an obligatory way to bail you out if you're sucking.

Overall, there's no way in hell I'm playing a 4 base map in the fog ever again.

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Treedweller

Post by Treedweller » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:48 pm

Interesting stuff, though I'll read it more in-depth later. As for you Sven, I think sometime in the next week you and I need to have a match in FoW on 'Mind Trap'. It's a restrictive enough ground map to keep the battle short enough, and has a good amount of hiding places where one can place units accordingly.

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Sven

Post by Sven » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:50 pm

I look forward to it.

Need to get myself a decent fog game.

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DTaeKim
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Post by DTaeKim » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:56 pm

POST GAME:

Due to the size of the map and the presence of Fog of War, I believe it would be prudent to build as many transports as I could afford and capture as many properties as I can. In addition, Sven forgot to give me the FTA counter, so I had to improvise. While I had no idea on the exact properties Sven had early on, I ended up with a property advantage for most of the map. Out of Dizziness' 52 properties, I had 27 to his 25. At one point, Sven took the lead, but I retook the property advantage and I was on pace to keep it for the rest of the game. For the record, I had one T-copter, two Gunboats, and one Rig ferrying my Infantry for most of the capture phase.

The combat phase began when I spotted Sven's two B-copters. I built a Duster right away and loaded Penny the following day. The Penny/Duster forced Sven to retreat from the area and allowed me to harass his Infantry until a Fighter came in. I had to retreat and Penny was out of the action until a few days later when Sven came in with a horde of Infantry on the eastern landmass. I sent Penny and another Duster and managed to charge my COP. Sven anticipated this and sent his Fighter and an Anti-Air to the front, so I used my COP and summoned snow. I have no idea on its effect on Sven, but it did allow my beleaguered units a chance to regroup.

On the western front, Sven was steadily pushing me back with his hidden indirect units and formidable soldier units. I had a Sub scouting Sven's forces, where I noticed that he had a lack of sea units in the center. I decided to build a B-ship and seize control. It enjoyed a couple of potshots before Sven built a Sub and threatened to ruin my day. I sent a Gunboat to hinder access to my B-ship and used a B-copter to prevent it from going south instead. The following turn, I built a Cruiser, loaded Penny into it, and demolished the Sub. Penny would remain in the Cruiser for the rest of the game.

Through some careful unit movement and commands, I had my COP charged a second time. This time, Penny summoned rain. In clear maps, rain summons Fog of War and reduces the enemy vision range to one. I took advantage of that fact, as Sven could not see half of my army without the use of his Flare units. In the meantime, Sven managed to capture the upper-left port and built a B-ship, but he did not see my Bomber thanks to the rain and I took care of that problem. I retook that port soon after.

Slowly but surely, I started to push into Sven's middle front with my B-ships and Cruisers, but he had a couple of hidden Rockets that took aim at my B-ships, forcing a retreat. When I was disconnected, I detailed the current situation above.

I have to agree with Sven. Large maps in Fog of War will take a long time, and even though I had the property advantage, Sven had the defensive advantage and he could take shots at my invading force. Until I had a decisive economic advantage, it would be a constant see-saw battle until one of us had a major blunder or Sven managed to charge Brenner's COP instead.

Unless you have a few hours to burn, avoid the large maps.

This puts my record against Sven at 0-0-2. Yes, I disconnected once before this battle.

One final note: turn on animations. Trust me. I can let Sven explain why.
What can change the nature of a man?

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Treedweller

Post by Treedweller » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:14 pm

Very interesting and thorough analysis Kimmy; however, I do have a couple questions: first of all, how prevalent were Bikes on this map? Judging by the sheer amount of money you spent on transports, I'm guessing you built far more infantry than Bikes, and yet you still held a property advantage over Sven; do you think it was the nature of the map, the effects of FoW on gameplay (since the opponent cannot necessarily see the transports, they're far harder to kill for instance) or both?

And what about Flares? It seems like Sven used his fair share in an attempt to shed light for his indirects and to prepare for the possibility of rain, but did you build any? And if so, what use did they end up having?

Sounds like a great match guys, and thanks for the interesting stuff to read.

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DTaeKim
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Post by DTaeKim » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:19 pm

I built a healthy number of Bikes. I quickly calculated the distance to my desired areas, and send my Bikes there first thing. I used the transports and Infantry to secure the closer locations and locations that were inaccessible by land. It was definitely a result from the map; otherwise, I may have settled for Bikes only.

I only had two Flare units built the entire game because I was too far from the front-lines to make much use and I had better uses for my factories. From the sounds of it, Sven had a lot more Flares, and he was making use during Penny's COP.
What can change the nature of a man?

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Treedweller

Post by Treedweller » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:26 pm

Hmm, interesting stuff to consider; I guess the transports were more a result of the terrain than any other factors, and I'd infer that your limited use of Flares was also partially because of the restrictive terrain for ground vehicles, though like you said the limited production facilities definitely affected this too.

Also worthy of note: I'm surprised you stuck Penny in a Duster; from my prior experience this was generally a bad idea thanks to a CO Duster only costing 500 G less than the readily available Fighter, but that was exclusively in non-Fog play. It seems like Fog of War particularly rewards players that use CO units in unexpected and poignant ways as opposed to the protectionist front-line maneuverability that seems to define non-Fog play, and it's a definite advantage that Dusters sound exactly like Copters in FoW. Also I'm liking Dusters more and more in both non-Fog and Fog situations.

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DTaeKim
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Post by DTaeKim » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:32 pm

I stuck Penny in a Duster because I calculated that it would be enough to OHKO a B-copter, giving me two quick bars. In addition, since it was still the capture phase, I could use it to harass Sven's soldiers until he built something to address the Duster. As it turns out, it was a good move on my part, especially because he KO the Duster the turn after my COP.
What can change the nature of a man?

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Terragent
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Post by Terragent » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:33 pm

God ****ing dammit. I want my router back now.

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Treedweller

Post by Treedweller » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:37 pm

DTaeKim wrote:I stuck Penny in a Duster because I calculated that it would be enough to OHKO a B-copter, giving me two quick bars. In addition, since it was still the capture phase, I could use it to harass Sven's soldiers until he built something to address the Duster. As it turns out, it was a good move on my part, especially because he KO the Duster the turn after my COP.
It definitely was a smart move, and I think by making Sven reactive to your own strategy, you forced him into having to maintain a clear economic disadvantage that in all likelihood was made all the worse for him through his forced expenditure on both a Fighter and a variety of Flare units. Basically, he must've been forced into rather elementary Infantry/Bike/Arty spam on the ground thanks to your forcing him to continually take to the seas and skies, which is where your seeming hidden indirect problem must've come into play.

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Sven

Post by Sven » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:04 am

A good thing to note about fog is the various information you can glean via animations/sounds.

With sounds:

You can hear a CO being loaded. You can hear a transport dropping something off (two sounds in quick succession). You can hear a bike vs a normal infantry. You can hear a sub. You can hear the number of units being moved in an area before your opponent starts controlling other units.

With animations:

You can see, exactly where a unit attacking you is, even in the fog. It zooms in on the space before the attack. You can also see exactly where the enemy is aiming his flares, and by extension, know the number of them.

With unit count:

Purely an intimidation factor, I kept mine up just so it didn't show I was down on properties and had a CO stuck in the middle of nowhere.

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Treedweller

Post by Treedweller » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:10 am

Hmm, the unit count? I knew about everything else up there, but I've never encountered that before dear.

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Sven

Post by Sven » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:20 am

Topscreen.

It's just another piece of data.

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Treedweller

Post by Treedweller » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:21 am

Ah, okay, thanks dear.

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Sven

Post by Sven » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:22 am

So how about that AWN ladder eh?

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Treedweller

Post by Treedweller » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:26 am

AWN? I haven't been there since I was banned in one of my life's darkest, most tragic hours. Worth alting for, or is the community still a bunch of lametards?

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Sven

Post by Sven » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:34 am

Don't alt yet.

I sent off a "diplomacy" email to see if we can get accounts to use for their ladder outright.

They're bound to have some good players, or at the very least, people like us immigrating in from other sites to take part.

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onewaystreet
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Post by onewaystreet » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:37 am

Sven wrote:They're bound to have some good players, or at the very least, people like us immigrating in from other sites to take part.
That's not a bad idea.

I might do that once I get the game.
thefalman wrote:Honestly, just when I thought we could all have a nice topic about mocking ridiculously, overly hardcore fundamentalists, it has to turn into a religious debate.

You bastards.
thefalman wrote:
RadioShadow wrote:Including having SEX? :o
I know it's an alien concept to you RS, but there's no need to act so surprised.

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Treedweller

Post by Treedweller » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:38 am

To be honest, I think I'd rather participate in a WWN ladder than deal with any of them, but I might as well wait and see if your diplomatic efforts prove successful.

In any case though, I'll visit there in the meantime and check it out, since this IP isn't banned.
Last edited by Treedweller on Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Sven

Post by Sven » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:38 am

Nothing says we can't have both.

Also, they have an ELO system up and fancy scripting.

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Treedweller

Post by Treedweller » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:39 am

ELO?

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Sven

Post by Sven » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:39 am

Chess

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Treedweller

Post by Treedweller » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:40 am

Chess isn't particularly my cup up tea, but I guess it's fun enough when I'm desperately bored.

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Sven

Post by Sven » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:42 am

Regardless of how good the actual game is, it's rating system is top notch, or else the Chess players probably would have found a new system.

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Treedweller

Post by Treedweller » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:45 am

Oh, it's a rating system >_> I thought you were going on about the fact that they have a good chess ladder there or something, hee hee.

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Sven

Post by Sven » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:49 am

If I wanted to play chess I would work my way up through yahoo chess.

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Blame Game

Post by Blame Game » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:36 pm

Don't bother

My first match was against some guy who disconnected and asked to call it a tie >_>

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Sven

Post by Sven » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:36 pm

They're bound to attract competition sooner or later.

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Sven

Post by Sven » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:38 pm

Blame Game wrote:Don't bother

My first match was against some guy who disconnected and asked to call it a tie >_>
you and me baby lets get it on ooooooooh yeaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh

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Sven

Post by Sven » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:38 pm

also haha KFD

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Blame Game

Post by Blame Game » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:45 pm

what, is he important somehow or something? >_>

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Sven

Post by Sven » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:46 pm

no i'm just laughing period

also i host or you

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Blame Game

Post by Blame Game » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:47 pm

wait, how did you know I was facing KFD is that like you in disguise or something

he is your age

he used brenner >_>

I'm scared

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Sven

Post by Sven » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:50 pm

yeah but he didn't WIN

that's the difference

also how else am i supposed to sneak myself into AWN, other then right under their very noses

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