Unbeatable Final Front Map!

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ThunderWalker
Rank: Elf
Location: Netherlands

Unbeatable Final Front Map!

Post by ThunderWalker » Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:27 am

Well, I've made a map wich seems to be almost unbeatable.
The map is as large as could be, so no screenshots. Just make it yourself in AW I, II or even III (but NOT with Tag's, just Single, however, you could tag Hachi and Sensei as Yellow Comet if you want to make it as hard as could be).
Hidden Text
M = Mountain
P = Plains
% = Forest
= = Road
- = River
W = Bridge
Q = HeadQuarters
B = Base
C = City
A = Airport
Now, The map and the settings!
Hidden Text

Code: Select all

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
MQBABC%MM%PP%MCPPPPPPP%PPPPPPM
MBBBC%MMPPPPPPPPP%PPCPPPPPM%PM
MABC%MM%PPCPP%P%PPPPPP%PPPPPPM
MBC=======PPPPPPPM%PPPPPP%PPPM
MC%MM%PP%=P%BPPPPPPPPPPPC%PP%M
M%MMPPPPP=======B%PPPCPMPPPPMM
MMMPPPP%PPPP%PP=PP%PPPPPPPPMMM
MMPP%PPPPPCPPPP=PPPP%PPPP%MMQM
MPPMPPCPPPPP%PM=P%CPPPPPPMMCBM
MPP%PP%PPP%PPP%=PPPP%P%CMM%PPM
MPPPPPPP%PMPPPB=PPPMP======%%M
MP%PP%PPPPPPP%P=PP%P%=%MM%==%M
MPPCPPP%P%PPPP%=======MM%%M=BM
M%PMPPPPPPP%PP%PPPPPP===%--W--
MPPP%PPPCPPPP%PPP%%%MM%==-M%%M
MPP%PPPPM%PP%PPP%PPMMB%M=W%%BM
MPPPPC%PPPPPPPCPPPMM%PP---PPPM
MP%PPPPP%P%PP%%PPMMQCPB-%BC%QM
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Everything in the Northwest corner should be Yellow Comet.
In the southeast corner, should the northeast part of the triangle be Orange Star.
The southeast part should be Green Earth, but the City there will be neutral.
The remaining part of the triangle is Blue moon.

Orange Star and Blue moon will get a tank, Green Earth a tank and an artillery, and Yellow Comet 3 Md. Tanks.

Settings:
War Room settings, but with Fog of War.

CO's: Orange Star / Blue Moon / Green Earth: Three CO's, but they must come from three different countries).
Yellow Comet: Hachi

Can you hold off Hachi for 40 days with your three CO's?

Extra Challange: Rout Hachi!
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DieselPheonix

Re: Unbeatable Final Front Map!

Post by DieselPheonix » Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:03 am

There's a lot of map editors floating around. There's, like, 3 on AWN alone, and the WWN main page links to it.

But your first one's free, so here:
Image
I changed green and yellow because the editor I use has freakishly bright colors for them that look weird.

As for the map itself, it might be difficult but that's about it. It doesn't look pleasing or interesting; the two corners where the armies are are dense on terrain while the middle is really sparse and looks random. Just look at any campaign or war room maps that aren't from DoR; maybe the devs didn't think a lot about strategy but at least they're easy on the eyes.

ThunderWalker
Rank: Elf
Location: Netherlands

Re: Unbeatable Final Front Map!

Post by ThunderWalker » Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:25 am

The map doesn't have to look pretty. The map haves to be difficult. And that's what it is. Even Risky Vale is fairly easy in comparison to this. Because Hachi WILL conquer the biggest part of the map and about day twenty-five he conquered everything except the southeast corner.

And indeed, the center is totally random, just for the sake of a better balance in this case. A symmetrical center is just only an advantage for Hachi, this isn't. You will get a few more properties on this way early on, although you couldn't keep those property's, but if you retreat soon enough you will get some extra funds for the Md. Tanks and Anti-Airs which save your ass from being destroyed. With a symmetrical center, you will get less property's early on, and because you have already a very hard time staying alive, the center isn't symmetrical.
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DTaeKim
Star CO
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Rank: War Room Legend
Location: In your base, killing your d00ds

Re: Unbeatable Final Front Map!

Post by DTaeKim » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:07 am

The problem with "unbeatable" maps is that the designer has no understanding of the AI, which is why I can make stunning proclamations like this one: Finished in 16 days by HQ capture with Sami, Kanbei, and Colin on Advance Wars: Dual Strike.

Sami hides along the forests with as many Infantry as she can muster towards the northeast corner. When you have Victory March charged, reveal ALL of the Infantry and make certain at least two can reach his HQ. The HQ defender will abandon his post to attack one, leaving the other route open to capture.

In Advance Wars 2, you can finish this map with Kanbei alone. Hachi cannot use his SCOP correctly because he cannot build on cities. In addition, Kanbei's 130/130 stats gives Hachi a distinct disadvantage. You can capture his HQ by sending a stream of Infantry along the mountains. With 170% defense, Hachi can barely dent the stream and he will be distracted by Orange Star and Green Earth's forces. It will be a long time, but Kanbei will win out by himself.

In Advance Wars: Dual Strike, Kanbei can finish this with by himself the defensive forces because he is invincible on mountains. All he needs to do is walk the border and capture the HQ with Samurai Spirit. Sami/Eagle can finish with their tag power, and the other COs can survive by simply spamming Artillery and Anti-Air. With the sheer number of Artillery units, the AI is reluctant to delve into your territory, and his AI will force him to retreat all Rockets because they will retreat when they have half-fuel.

You can also use any combination of the mass damage COs to constantly force Hachi to retreat, and he will never bring a serious force to threaten you.

On the other hand, if you constantly pick off his soldiers, Hachi will build more of them instead of the high powered units.

On a more serious attempt, I held the center for thirty days even though I lost the neutral bases. Kanbei's Infantry protected Colin's Artillery while Sami constantly captured Hachi's properties.
What can change the nature of a man?

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DieselPheonix

Re: Unbeatable Final Front Map!

Post by DieselPheonix » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:18 am

16 days? I know it's nowhere near unbeatable but that's... fast.
Too bad you don't get scored for Versus matches. Might be interesting to have.

So... you're taking on custom war rooms now? Are the in-game ones so thoroughly demolished?

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HPD
Tri-Star CO
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Location: The Mountain

Re: Unbeatable Final Front Map!

Post by HPD » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:55 am

DTK just can't deny a challenge. :P
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ThunderWalker
Rank: Elf
Location: Netherlands

Re: Unbeatable Final Front Map!

Post by ThunderWalker » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:19 am

ONE HQ Guard?!!!!

I have to deal with three HQ guards in most cases. Three Md. Tanks which don't move until you walk into their range, and the HQ Md. Tank won't even move if that is the case. The result is, HQ Capture is not an option (it IS if the map is equal, but this map isn't), as long as you haven't the advantage.

And, another thing, the AW II Hachi will also build on cities during his SCOP.

DTK, you haven't rout him yet? THAT's the extra challange I set up. :o
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Xenesis
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Re: Unbeatable Final Front Map!

Post by Xenesis » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:21 am

And, another thing, the AW II Hachi will also build on cities during his SCOP.
Nah, he won't. Try it in a predeployed map or something (bundle city) - The AW2 AI is too stupid to use it.

If it's a design map, I find it very odd that the HQ MD tank doesn't move for you - in the AI's case (for AW2 anyhow) there's a specific "wait and never move" command that needs to be set and you can't set it through the map editor. You can generally lure the AI out by capturing something anyhow.
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ThunderWalker
Rank: Elf
Location: Netherlands

Re: Unbeatable Final Front Map!

Post by ThunderWalker » Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:09 am

Xenesis wrote:
And, another thing, the AW II Hachi will also build on cities during his SCOP.
Nah, he won't. Try it in a predeployed map or something (bundle city) - The AW2 AI is too stupid to use it.

If it's a design map, I find it very odd that the HQ MD tank doesn't move for you - in the AI's case (for AW2 anyhow) there's a specific "wait and never move" command that needs to be set and you can't set it through the map editor. You can generally lure the AI out by capturing something anyhow.
But he does the second time I played against the Hachi AI. The first time, he didn't, the second time his properties were occupied, but the third time he used his SCOP was at THIS map. And yes, I saw the AI build a pair of Md. Tanks on the city's at my front door.
Also, the AI had a strange first turn. Five infantry and two APC's (I finded out because I destroyed both APC's in the same turn).

However, this PC is my second. At school, but also at my last PC, he didn't al those tricks mentioned. Where is the secret file that take over AI-scripts and let the CPU doing the work... I couldn't find it, but I know it overwrites ALL strategy AI, because it also happens in the other games I have. He just used my own tricks against me!
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DTaeKim
Star CO
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Re: Unbeatable Final Front Map!

Post by DTaeKim » Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:44 am

ThunderWalker wrote:But he does the second time I played against the Hachi AI. The first time, he didn't, the second time his properties were occupied, but the third time he used his SCOP was at THIS map. And yes, I saw the AI build a pair of Md. Tanks on the city's at my front door.
Also, the AI had a strange first turn. Five infantry and two APC's (I finded out because I destroyed both APC's in the same turn).
He does not use his SCOP correctly in Advance Wars 2, which is why he is a terrible AI. If you're using Advance Wars 2, use Sturm instead for a challenge instead of Hachi.

As for your strange first turn, the AI always builds soldiers if he has less than a certain number. One can abuse the AI's tendency by picking off his soldiers, therefore limiting the number of bases used for the more powerful units.
What can change the nature of a man?

ThunderWalker
Rank: Elf
Location: Netherlands

Re: Unbeatable Final Front Map!

Post by ThunderWalker » Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:34 am

The point is, there is something on my PC overwriting the AI.
That makes the AI learn from his mistakes.
And about the five soldiers. That's normal. But the second APC isn't.

The AI is becoming unpredictable and going to ignore the set build pattern.
That makes it impossible to abuse the AI. The set build pattern is sometimes even ignored. He puts indirects in reefs/forests (your infantry will get trapped by AI Indirects). However, if the AI is Max, these are directs.
The FoW AI is just nasty. Ambushes fail, the AI will stay out of range, and maybe even make an ambush for MY army.
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DTaeKim
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Re: Unbeatable Final Front Map!

Post by DTaeKim » Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:20 am

That makes no sense. Why would the game emulate differently on your computer?
What can change the nature of a man?

Xen

Re: Unbeatable Final Front Map!

Post by Xen » Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:58 am

If there really was such a program, I'd want it just to figure out how the hell the AW2 AI works at a coding level - being able to find all the related code would be a godsend. <_< >_>

Also in AW2, the AI has a noticeable advantage in FoW. It NEVER gets ambushed, because it knows exactly where every unit on the map is. It can't attack hidden units and acts like they don't exist. Except for subs. It knows exactly where they are too. <_<;

Basically, the AI playing FoW is like playing with full vision of the map, vision of dived subs and no vision into forests/reefs. The AI will put indirects in Reefs/Forests because they're high terrain defence spots usually, otherwise they'll often go for a city. So all the stated things about the AI in FoW is noted.

As far as deviating from the build patterns go, it's a product of high starting funds most of the time. The AI generally builds in the order Inf/Mech x5 -> APC 1 -> Most Expensive Direct -> Most Expensive Indirect -> Misc Units -> Loop. But it varies from CO to CO, and is set by the particular map. Some maps will cause say Sami to build 8 Soldiers instead of 5.

But yeah, unless you're playing the Euro or Japan ROM and they fixed Hachi in that, he doesn't build on cities at all and definitely won't on AW2 (U).

ThunderWalker
Rank: Elf
Location: Netherlands

Re: Unbeatable Final Front Map!

Post by ThunderWalker » Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:12 pm

I put my Indirects in forest too ^^
If he runs into a tank in a forest or road, he won't strike it with his Neotank and take the loss. The Indirects in forests behind will be take into account and the AI will decide to flank me with Mechs and Bombers. Also the AI will counter some SCOP's. Say, with Victory March, he will occupy as many property's as possible and keeping some units between your mechs and the HQ if those Mechs should otherwise capture it in one turn.
The build on cities? I should try a few things, to test it out.
EDIT: In Non FOW, on Toil Ferry (I was Orange Star), as Sami, Hachi didn't build on cities with SCOP, even with his HQ and about five cities in grave danger (I had Victory March charged). I bombed his bases and HQ multiple times to make Victory March possible; the HQ guards didn't move anymore once the Infantry started to close in. As long as these infantry aren't near the HQ, the HQ guards WILL move. But once I conquered the center island, the AI didn't move the HQ guards anymore and he build even a few more HQ guards.
EDIT 2: In FoW, on Point Stormy, again as Sami, Hachi didn't build on cities during SCOP, but due to the fog I am not so sure of that. His cities were multiple times in danger and swiped away next turn with a Victory March, and while capturing just a mere two cities, and with the second just one, but it was enough to give me the advantage. With the third I conquered the upper half of his western "island", while breaking his line in the south with the Tanks, Bombers and Indirects, and at day fifty-two, the AI was been routed. It was way easier because the infantry was still in the southwest part of the map, and the three infantry in the north couldn't do much anyway... It's worth to mention I had built less than ten soldiers through the entire game. :o
The AI was very stupid this game.


Why he does? I don't know, but it don't happen only at this game. It happens also in MechWarrior4 and sometimes also in Tiberian Sun. The AI will try to don't make the same mistake twice in these games. I think that's the only thing that happens, though.

Now it will be time for a land-only map I guess, again in FoW.
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DTaeKim
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Re: Unbeatable Final Front Map!

Post by DTaeKim » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:04 pm

In FoW, you can tell if Hachi builds on cities by checking the unit count before and after the power.
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